Part 1
I’ve been a fan of the Forgotten Realms for nearly a decade now- I enjoy its sheer diversity, long history, and characters- but I’ve been preoccupied in recent years whenever I consider DMing in Forgotten Realms with the following problem: most of the major villainous factions aren’t very menacing.
When I flip through the pages, trying to figure out the big-bad, the stock evil guys- the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards, the Cult of the Dragon- come off as pompous and incompetent, and are characterized by a history repeated failure. Judging from the FR supplements and novels I’ve read, most of these groups are their own worst enemy, and often seem to do as well as they do in spite of their megalomaniacal and back-stabbing leadership. Their schemes rarely stay secret for long, and often backfire with hilarious results.
Now time for some disclaimers; not all of the villainous organizations in the Forgotten Realms have this problem, and I still harbor some fondness for those which glaringly do, (even though I have trouble taking them as seriously.) This is not a pro-4th ed rant, either; I would have preferred background problems in FR to have been addressed in a far less drastic manner.
Furthermore, I am well aware that a good DM can make any organization a credible threat with the right work. This point I respect, but what I am arguing is that the material as presented about some of these groups fails to make them scary. If you design a campaign in which the Cult of the Dragon’s sinister plots inspire dread and nightmares in the players, more power to you, but my point is that the source material simply gives the impression that they are group of insane crackpots that operate largely through brute force rather than any degree of strategic planning and organization.
I recognize that it can be difficult to make an organization sound genuinely scary, but I don’t have this problem when I consider groups in the Eberron setting. The Blood of Vol, the Lord of Blades, the Daelkry, the Aurum, the Lords of Ash, the Dreaming Dark, and even some of the good or neutral organizations harbor potential as secretive, sinister organizations with far reaching agendas beyond simple military conquest, that often operate subtly, and that aren’t constantly and publicly being defeated at every turn. (To be fair, the Cults of the Dragon Below are presented more like the random crazies that make up the Cult of the Dragon in FR, and the Emerald Claw are in my mind the front group of goonish thugs that are destined to be trounced by the PCs early in the game.)
One of the problems in FR’s case may simply be the sheer amount of depth and detail in the material on the villains so far. 95% of novels that get published feature heroes foiling the villains in the end, and with all the FR novels out there, that’s a lot humiliating defeats to take the menace out of an organization. I’m not generally into ‘Dark’ settings where evil constantly wins, but the bad guys in FR more often than not get their butts handed to them over and over again. Similarly, all of the supplements (which I love, make no mistake) may have the effect of taking the mystery out of an organization’s agenda and resources. Obviously, I want there to keep on being tons of novels and supplements (which sadly for the latter, does not appear to be the case in 4th ed, sigh…) but this may be an explanation. Perhaps once I’ve read enough books in Eberron, the Dreaming Dark will seem to be a bunch of incompetent fools as well. And if I could only forget 1357-1375 DR in Forgotten Realms history, and the Avatar trilogy, and Spellfire, perhaps the Zhentarim would seem scarier…
The second part of this post is a review of the major organizations (in 3rd edition), and my thoughts on the weightiness of the menace they embody as a villainous organization.
The Zhentarim are the most prominent bad guys of the setting, and as such embody the very worst problems that many FR villains have- that said, I can’t help but feel some fondness for their sheer over-the-topness and the hilarious ways their plots of conquest continually backfire. Unfortunately, that doesn’t help me take them seriously.
The notion of the vast merchant network, backed up by religious zealots and plotting wizards seemed cool when I read about in Baldur’s Gate back in 1999 and then bought Spellfire- but then I find out how laughably incompetent they were.
Just read the history books: the Zhentarim menace is ever present, and always thwarted on a grandiose scale. Zhentil keep gets sacked by giants; the Zhentarim army fails to take over Shadowdale again; there’s the revolving door of religions which subvert the entire organization and turn it simply into a branch of the Church of Bane/Cyric/Iyachtu. The Zhentarim embody sheer power- both in the vastness of their resources and their individual leaders- but also the lack of ability to wield it effectively towards their aims.
The characters at the top definitely have potential, and are entertaining; Fzoul is great, Manshoon oozes menace (though I have yet to discern much depth to his personality), Scyllua seemed to have potential (if only she could have had more background before being killed in a module of all things), and Semmemon was great foil for the grandiose schemes of the first two. The problem was that the internal conflicts between these characters rapidly came to define them more than those they had with the good guys.
In short, the novels and supplements present the Zhentarim as abounding with brute force and treachery, but utterly confounded by infighting between scheming, power-mad wizards and clerics, resulting in one disaster after another when they try to put their plans into action.
The Red Wizards
The Red Wizards are the second fiddle to the Zhentarim- if the Black network didn’t do it, than Thayans are at fault (or at least a rogue one.) The Thayans have many of the same characteristics- an overabundance of power and resources, without the ability to wield it effectively. Once again, I like the concept, but in practice the pompous mages and their hapless armies seem made to be defeated. How many times have they invade Aglarond and Rashemen, only to be completely repulsed? (Try counting them in AGHotR. I gave up.)
Their failures are explained as being a result of thier lack of political unity. Fair enough, but once again you have a powerful enemy completely hampered by their own internal conflicts, megalomania, and over confidence. The fact that the Thayans are interested in generic world domination is also kind of sad, especially because they’re so incompetent at the military aspect of things.
Now, I can enjoy some of the Thayan characters individually, and the magic-item-market program at least opened them up for use in subtler schemes. The portrayal of non-evil Thayans I also appreciate.
The Cult of the Dragon
An idea I wanted to like, but just couldn’t take seriously. They’re simply crazed cultists working independently to fulfill a mad prophet’s dreams. Why would someone buy into such a prophecy and wish to help fulfill it? Nobody knows, especially when they keep on getting defeated every time they attempt something. ‘Spellfire’ was particularly hideous for them- they must have been weeping for years about losing three dracoliches in a matter of days. (Yes, I know, one of them was Manshoon’s.)
I am aware that the ‘Rage of Dragons’ novels concerned an epic-plot by the cult’s lichified prophet Sammaster, so perhaps if I had read these I might have a different opinion about the group. But based on what I’ve seen, they’re kind of pathetic.
The Shades
These are the major villains which I think have the most potential. I know they’re not popular on these boards, but I started on FR when 3rd edition came out and they seemed the most sinister of the baddies out there, especially because the full extent of their power was held back. They combine magical might with a more subtle mode of operations, emphasizing stealth, deception, and political manipulation. They’re as pompous and arrogant as the worst of them, but I like how reasonable they can sound when they’re trying to convince people to their side, and they operate more efficiently and with better strategic direction than all of the above organizations. Their leadership features some rivalries and divisions, but they’re not crippling like those of the Zhentarim.
The Shades also benefit from drawing upon thematic ‘shadowy’ spells and creatures, a powerful and interesting template for NPCs, and common soldiers riding demonic bats. The drawback is that most of their named characters are solidly out of the league of even high-level PCs. Novel wise, they tend not to suffer the sort of humiliating defeats the others do, even if they cannot fully succeed in what they attempt. By in large, the fluff suggests they are succeeding in many of their strategic objectives, even though they are not invincible.
The Drow
The Drow are probably amongst the most popular villains in FR, and although they suffer from many of the problems that characterize the Zhentarim and Thayans, they still manage to work as a menacing and an interesting culture. Their backstabbing tendencies and internal conflicts are heightened to such a level where it becomes one of their more entertaining characteristics, even if it begins to strain credulity that they ever get anything accomplished against their external enemies. Once again, we have a situation where high levels of personal power and resources are balanced out by infighting and a tendency to waste power killing each other.
Their history, too suffers for being a litany of defeats. Mithral Hall. The surface drow attacks on the Dales. The grand ‘triumph’ of the war of the spider queen, which saw half of the drow cities reduced to ruins.
I felt that the Drow factions outside of the Lolth worshippers were what gave the Drow an added potential for menace. Lolth always seemed inwardly obsessed, more interested in perpetuating matriarchal rule and endless infighting- leave it to her divine challengers to spice up drow society with potential heretics and revolutionaries against the status quo. Sadly no more with 4th edition... I also appreciated the notion of the half-drow nation in Dambreth- now there are some Drow that decided to get off their butts and do something.
Those are the biggest ‘bad guys’ in the setting at present- below are my thoughts on some of the other villainous groups.
Shadow Thieves and Night Masks: These are fine as is- secretive thieving guild networks. One has a vast network of operatives and political influence. The other has vampires. Take your pick.
The Arcane Brotherhood: Basically the Zhentarim of the North- but with pirates. Prone to the same in-fighting and grandiose schemes and epic failures, but at least they come with a sinister tower to ascend (how many made it all the way up in Neverwinter Nights?), and a liche in charge with an Erinyes mistress.
Cyricists: What do you get when you have disorganized madmen cultists randomly killing things for the hell of it? Not a very compelling foe with believable motivations, that’s what. Sort of like the Zhentarim, but without the power, and substituting the dreams of conquest for just killing stuff. Some Cyricist characters in the novels are ok, but they are dud in terms of their presentation in Lords of Darkness.
Daemonfay: A good idea which unfortunately got treated to the ‘villains always lose in the stories’ problem to such an extent that they were entirely wiped out by the end of the third book that featured them. How was this a good idea? They certainly didn’t bother to operate with much subtlety when sprung from their prison in the novels, going all out on rampage in three different direction, even though they weren’t many in number. In this case, the supplements were better.
Malaugrym: Sinister cthuloid shapeshifters from another dimension, the beasts of your nightmares! Except Elminster always kills them. And any wizard can cast polymorph. And they’re always fighting against each other, or going rogue anyway, so why get worried? Still, I liked the concept; I used a half-shade half-malaugrym as the BBEG for my first FR campaign.
Iron Throne: Now we have a sword-coast Zhentarim, sort of. Cooler when it was the instrument of Bhaal’s rebirth. Not so cool as a giant’s plot to get his girlfriend back. Now killed by 4th ed, but I wished they had revitalized them instead.
Knights of the Shield: good concept for society of information brokers. Haven’t seen how the divine connection to Gargauth really pays off, though.
Krakaan Society: the water-themed version of the above. I like the sheer variety of aquatic beasties involved, and a giant 20th level squid wizard as a leader? Awesome!
Twisted Rune: I kind of like the idea behind this secretive group of undead manipulators, although stage-running events in Calimshan ‘just for the hell of it’ doesn’t quite cut it in terms of motivation for me. The named characters tend to be too-high level for most PCs, and they do have the in-fighting issue, but they are genuinely threatening on both the small and wide scale.
So those are my thoughts on the villainous groups of the Realms. I know this was a lengthy read, but I thought it would be interesting to compares notes on how scary the various enemies actually come off as in play.
Now, I know many of you will disagree with me, and feel that the Cult of the Dragon is Scary, and point out that the Zhentarim have won several victories, and what am I expecting from a game supplement anyway? That’s all fine, and I’d be happy to compare notes and opinions on the matter- this is just the impression I have of these groups based on the novels and supplements I’ve read, and I certainly haven’t read them all. A sense of ‘menace’ is also inherently subjective, although I think the problems I have with the incompetence and lack of subtlety of many of these organizations aren’t felt by me alone.
You see, evil HAS TO BE miserably incompetent (in all settings, even comics and movies), because if it wasn't, it would take-over in a day or two.
How many Red Wizards are there compared to Chosen? How many Liches does Larloch control? What sort of power-levels do Tan-Chin and Ioulium actually HAVE?!
Seriously, if the Orcs weren't such unrealistic push-overs, do you really think Horde after Horde of MILLIONS of them could be so easily repelled? Do you think a Lone Drow could walk into the midst of that and kill a 1000 Orcs?
Is BS... pure BS... and we know it; but that's the way it has to be, so that 1st level PCs could actually stand a chance against a 'world of hurt'. Thats why it's called 'Fantasy' - we have to check our logic circuits at the door. ;)
That largely outlines why so many villains were laughable. I think WotC tried to fix this, but when you have a reputation of, as Ed puts it, being "bumbling Keystone Kop pushovers" it is somewhat hard to repair it without a massive shake up. Hence, I think this is one of the reason so many Chosen were axed and the 100 year time jump.
But anyway, you can have competent bad guys and evil organizations- and in books and movies, those are the ones that people find most striking. The evil master in the Star Wars 'Thrawn Trilogy' was highly competent- not perfect in everything he did, but he actually started the series with weaker forces than the protagonists.
I didn't mention Larloch in the list of bad guys, but he's an odd example of an extremely powerful villain who in fact doesn't really do much that's villainous.
Look at these boards, for instance. If we weren't all FR fans, we wouldn't be here... and yet all we do is squabble.
So evil fighting evil is all well and good, and actually makes sense - these guys are evil because they are all out for themselves, and it makes sense that they spend more then half their time trying to out-perform their peers and trip-up their betters, just to improve their own station.
You get that amongst the 'good guys' as well, because everyone has their own idea of 'right & wrong' - just look at the Harpers and the Moonstars.
And as far as the Thieves and Assassin's guilds all gunning for each other - have you ever seen any of the 'Gangster Flicks' about the 'Roaring 20's?
Or better yet, the gang-fights between the Bluds and Crips? Evil spends more time killing evil in the RW - believe you me. If all of these gangs, militia groups, and 'fringe' cults ever got together, we'd be in a heap of trouble. Fortunately, they all hate each other as much as they hate everyone else. ;)
Don't get me wrong, I love the scheming, powerful wizard ruling behind the scenes, but some diversity would be great. There are many other 'classes' that could be used for leaders of cults and organisations. Which is why I'm often happily surprised when I see an organisation ruled by a sly rogue or a strong-willed warrior-type.
The 'cunning wizard' concept is great, but it's being ridiculously overused in FR.
A thing that comes to my mind when reading this stuff, is how common powerful evil wizards are.
Don't get me wrong, I love the scheming, powerful wizard ruling behind the scenes, but some diversity would be great. There are many other 'classes' that could be used for leaders of cults and organisations. Which is why I'm often happily surprised when I see an organisation ruled by a sly rogue or a strong-willed warrior-type.
The 'cunning wizard' concept is great, but it's being ridiculously overused in FR.
It's the basic 'power corrupts' scenario, plus when history extends thousands of years and not hundreds (like the RW) Wizards are more likely to rise to the top.
Bel
I haven't read through what you have posted (just skimmed it), but I will say right off the bat you are correct.
You see, evil HAS TO BE miserably incompetent (in all settings, even comics and movies), because if it wasn't, it would take-over in a day or two.
That's what I thought myself. If evil gets the things right they would and must have won allready.
But then, if you are looking for a bad guy, a schemer and mastermind with the cat in his arm, invent one.
Or take a individual of the stories and FR lore and make him a monster. For example I had a game in Amn and was intrigued by the possibilities of such a mastermind like Emperor Shoon VII. aka Zallanora Argentresses. He wants to rebuilt his empire, is really evil, mighty and knows much about the things going on in Amn. He is in a possition to plot and do nice and ugly things. And the best, you can start a loooong campaign for players until they find everything out. In the end they even can serve him, or destroy him. Yes he is a high level character, but maybe you can find a way for your players to get help? I think there are many people who did not want a new Shoon Imperium in Amn and would help a group of heros to defeat such a monster, or maybe your party finds the real Zallanora and can find a way to get Shoon back into the skull.
I think the problem with a group of evildoers is that there are a lot of individuals who want their share of the cake and so they spend a lot of time with infighting. But a strong individual can surpress it, that was the same with the Admiral Thrawn in the example of SW. If you have a problem with this weakness in one of the bad organisations, then make one of their leaders special and strong or invent a new one. I believe it were in history the strong individuals who turned and forced history itself in a certain way (Alexander the great, Pericles, Ceasar, and I think you know the real bad ones of the last century.)
[b]Part 3
Daemonfay: A good idea which unfortunately got treated to the ‘villains always lose in the stories’ problem to such an extent that they were entirely wiped out by the end of the third book that featured them.
Actually, they weren't entirely wiped out. A few did escape.
18DELTA
So yeah, when they enter a citadel with 200 Zhents, I make sure the stupid gaurd doesn't sound the alarm, because it would be all over with then and there (unless it moves the plot along - I did have them thrown in a dungeon once :devil
. Same thing goes for a Dragon or just about anything else - if you followed the rules and sourcebooks precisely and ran them competently, the only 'heroes' that would survive were the ones that decided to stay home and raise a family instead. ;)If it hasn't been mentioned before, the more recent novels tend to feature villains who actually are competent.
I would say in the aftermath of 4e, Shar - the ultimate villain - was pretty damn competent.
In fact, thanks to people complaining about the incompetent villiains, we now how a world where evil is in charge, and everythings gone to 'hell in a handbag'.
I think I liked Toril better when the villains never got anything meaningful done.
Zhentarim
The characters at the top definitely have potential, and are entertaining; Fzoul is great, Manshoon oozes menace (though I have yet to discern much depth to his personality), Scyllua seemed to have potential (if only she could have had more background before being killed in a module of all things...
Heaven Forbid the campaign setting be advanced by players doing something, rather than reading about it.
Heaven Forbid the campaign setting be advanced by players doing something, rather than reading about it.
At least someone gets it.
The 'big guns' from the sourcebooks and novels should almost NEVER make an appearance in your game, because they will automatically over-shadow the PCs, which is the worst thing you can do to a group of would-be heroes.
They make EXCELLENT background villains, though, pulling the strings...
And by 'vllains', I mean ANYONE in power, not just the 'bad guys'. Khelben is a great example, but ALL of the 'good guys' are willing to sacrifice a group of adventurers for the 'greater good'.
Regarding Lolth: yes, she is only interested in herself and her own power. Conquest and organisation hold little real interest for her.
Well, I think this is why the other gods (Vhareun) were a good foil to her by both contesting her control of the drow cities (albeit secretly), and expanding to other targets. Well, now it seems she's a 'greater goddess' in 4th ed with those wider ambitions, but I'm sad every other drow god was slain.
I never ran them as wholly competent, either. Afterall, as the DM, I have an unfair advantage - on the entire planet I have the "home-field advantage". If I really wanted to, I could toast the PCs two seconds after they walked into the bad guy's lair.
Whether the villains seem capable, and whether you take full advantage of every resource and power they have to wipe out the PCs in game are not the same thing. You can always engineer impossible situations as a DM. No, the issue is whether the background material presents them as a menacing and credible threat, and inspires you to play them like they're on their game. Being 'on their game' doesn't meant that they wipe out the players because they brought out enough high-level mages and hordes of soldiers and beholders or whatever, because that kind of game is not a fun and lasting one, but it does meaing making the players feel like these guys are trying their best, are serious threat to their PCs, and are worthy of their efforts. All the background about how the Zhentarim are tripping over each other to stab each other in the back like an evil version of the Three Stooges with beholders in tow takes away from that (after you've come across it enough times, anyway. I find it funny too, so it has some value.) It means that some times their larger-scale schemes actually succeed and challenge things the PCs hold dear, instead of backfiring horrendously. All perfectly fixable in game by a good GM as is, btw, I'm just arguing the background materials not entirely up-to-bat in making these groups menacing.
If it hasn't been mentioned before, the more recent novels tend to feature villains who actually are competent.
A good point- the servants of Shar have certainly been favored in 3rd edition as the most insidious foes with the longest track record of success. Perhaps they went over the top in making them (and shadow magic) the most succesful villains in the new setting, but they seemed the group most likely to change the status-quo compared to the Zhentarim and the Thayans. Though I haven't read them yet, I am glad to hear about the series of books about how Szass Tam is trying to seize control of Thay. That realm needed some new thunder in it, but I hope that 4th ed won't end up decreeing that it was laid waste. We'll see.
I think I liked Toril better when the villains never got anything meaningful done.
Well, the Spellplague concept for me is just to impersonal for me to see it as 'evil getting something done'- it's a force of nature. Now getting the good gods to kill each other off by silly tricks- well, that feels more like a case of editorial fiat than anything related to the progress of the villainous groups in the realms.
Heaven Forbid the campaign setting be advanced by players doing something, rather than reading about it.
A fair enough point, I just felt that she came off more as a boss monster than an in-depth villain- but the module seemed cool over all, I grant it that.