Lvl Adj, Shades, etc. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Lvl Adj, Shades, etc.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
1_ton_ghost
Jul 09, 2008 14:18:29 Being a whopping +4 LA, is there a trimmed down version of Shade in much the same manner as Drow to Lesser Drow (PGtF)?

That is, I was theorizing if dropping Spell Resistance was enough to go +3 LA

In short, any more frugal suggestions in terms of character generation would be well receieved and appreciated.
#2
lord_karsus
Jul 09, 2008 17:32:52 -Offhand, I don't believe that there is. An easy alternative, though, is to give a Human the Shadow Creature template from Manual of the Planes.
#3
phelf_der_zemit
Jul 09, 2008 20:10:56 Or a personal favorite you could use the Shadowlord template in the splat book Unapproachable East. It's the make up of the shadow monks who follow Everis Cale, probrably one of the more notable shades of this time period.
#4
valgard
Jul 10, 2008 2:53:29 I agree with the others, look for another template that has fewer LA. I think there are some in a Dragon issue, but I don't have any. The fact is that there's a wide range of options to look for.
#5
lord_karsus
Jul 11, 2008 21:27:21
Or a personal favorite you could use the Shadowlord template in the splat book Unapproachable East. It's the make up of the shadow monks who follow Everis Cale, probrably one of the more notable shades of this time period.

-Are you sure? I seem to remember someone saying something about a specific monster that seemed to be exactly what those guys were.
#6
phelf_der_zemit
Jul 11, 2008 21:37:16 Acourding to Mr.Kemp (I'm unprepared and don't have the quote or link but,) they were monks who worshiped Mask and were there for granted the Shadowlord template which gives you a number of spelllike abilitys (Including Dimensional Door). I have yet to see a monster fitting their description but when you fit a monk with this template you get the spiting image of these fine folk on paper.
#7
lord_karsus
Jul 11, 2008 21:39:17 -Oh, okay. Maybe I was thinking that the template was a specific monster, because that sounds somewhat familiar.
#8
1_ton_ghost
Jul 12, 2008 14:26:22 I am largely aware of Mask's little bounty (very decent, Telflamm Shadowlord too), pretty much everything in Unapproachable East, Lords of Madness' template (also super sweet) and a million other shades (no pun intended) of shadow-esque character generation options.

This is why I asked for advice on the Shade and Shade alone as there are enough differences to warrant my creative license in taking liberties w/ that. Now, this is all good advice to be sure, but not in terms of establishing the worth of Spell Resistance and it's impact on lvl adj.

I was just hipshooting that the (Sp)'s of the drow and Darkvision were +1 and the SR was the other, hence +2 LA. S
Shades, having a Hell of alot more powers bench 4. But SR is huge. Is it worth 1 though in terms of LA? Their shadowvision, shadowimage, stuff like that. What are some conservative estimates concerning (Su) and (Sp) worth?
#9
lord_karsus
Jul 17, 2008 21:19:59 -Well, the Darkvision is "worth" 0, because Dwarves get Darkvision, and have no LAs.

-What are all of the special abilities that the template gives?
#10
1_ton_ghost
Jul 18, 2008 9:45:12 Well, darkvision isn't a catchall. Tons get it, but at what degree?

If you're drow; 120 ft is totally respectable. There's a good chance you can spot someone at that range before you even need to consider making move/hide rolls to facilitate ambush. A nice comfort distance. And w/ range penalties at -1/10ft, unlikely they'll notice you. Just a few extra feet make a world of difference, or at least a free attack (Surprise Round).
My statement prior wasn't that darkvision alone gets part of the LA for them. This superior version and some (Sp) probably account for +1 LA and the Spell Resistance the other +1, thusly +2 LA (speculation).

Shades get only 60ft darkvision (i find that odd, but oh well), however, it's perfect, like devils. They can see through any darkness effect which is scary as Hell when it's on you providing constant concealment, thusly, any time is a good time to Hide (cover or concealment needed).

Shades, off the top of my head (back of FRCS book), are "on/off" template wise. In darkness or shadow which means "not in the radius of a Daylight effect or brightly lit room."
All their goodies only work in darkness, save maybe SR, darkvision, etc.

+2 Con/Cha
Darksight (as above)
Fast Heal 2
50 ft speed
+4 Luck (think it's luck) on all Saves
+2 Competance bonus attacks/dmg
Invisibility/will
Shadow Figment (as Mirror Image) 3/day
Spell Resistance
Then you get into the higher lvl stuff. Shadow Leap, like Dimension Door
Plane Shift to Shadow Plane, etc.

Just trying to get a measure for what these might be worth as building blocks.
#11
lord_karsus
Jul 18, 2008 10:51:02 -The Plusses to Constitution and Charisma are probably worth one +1 to LA, since there aren't any negatives to balance them out. The Invisibility at will also is probably worth another +1 to LA. The Spell Resistance is probably worth another +1 to LA. And then, the higher level things, with the Plane Shifting and the Shadow Leaping and stuff is probably worth another +1 to LA. After looking at all of that, the LA should really be more than +4, in my opinion.
#12
1_ton_ghost
Jul 18, 2008 11:31:17 You'd think that, but it's only viable in shadow/darkness. That's pretty open-ended though. You get the Cha/Con bonuses, all the little (Sp)'s and so on, as long as you're not stuck in Anauroch at high noon or in a temple to Lathander or something radiant and bright.

There's shadow everywhere, you just gotta get to it. W/out that though, all those goodies are for naught.
#13
lord_karsus
Jul 18, 2008 11:48:49 -Right, but it's easy enough to get Shadow. A spellcaster can conjure his/her own Shadow, if he/she wants.
#14
1_ton_ghost
Jul 18, 2008 12:43:39 Not in all cases and a clever antagonist will exploit that easilly enough.

I do find it odd though that the City of Shade itself resides in the middle of Anauroch, a blistering desert w/out much, if any cover to provide any shadow at all. I mean, what's the archetypal killer in the desert, sun, right? Maybe cuz' it was remote, who knows. Granted, yes, it's their ancestral homelands before the pharrim turned it to Hell, but still. They could've flown the city anywhere after they popped up in the Dire Wood.

Anyway, creating shadow: as a caster, are you really willing to eat 4 lvls of spell progression? That being said, Shades make incredible rogues and the occaisional melee type. The one I was grooming was w/ the petitioned hexblade fix using the alternative rule for their familiar (PHB II); some shadowy panther that debuffs when adjacent. Seemed appropriate.

Oh, I did fail to mention their Control Light ability, however, this will not produce shadows. It only reduces illumination by 10's of %/character lvl.
Hence, 5th lvl shade can drop the light 50%. Other mention was every 25% drop in illuminance adds +1 to Hide, though there is no mention in the PHB about light/dark modifiers at all...and there truly should be.
#15
lord_karsus
Jul 18, 2008 13:15:40 -The Shadow Enclave is covered by a perpetual doom and gloom. I don't know if any of the novels that feature it mention this, but the sourcebooks do.
#16
ody_saraph_of_karsus
Jul 18, 2008 13:18:04
-Right, but it's easy enough to get Shadow. A spellcaster can conjure his/her own Shadow, if he/she wants.

Also The have the ability to control light making the place dimmer... just thowing that out there
#17
lord_karsus
Jul 18, 2008 13:26:18
Also The have the ability to control light making the place dimmer... just thowing that out there

-Right. That'd theoretically create shadow as well.
#18
1_ton_ghost
Jul 18, 2008 13:50:53
Also The have the ability to control light making the place dimmer... just thowing that out there

You may want to read a few posts back before posting yourself; that means I laid it out verbatim already.
Not sure if that would actually create shadows in terms of physics. You're only reducing the level of light to foster more darkness is all. But I suppose it's their failsafe seeing as it's a Standard Action to work your (Sp)'s, so you're not attacking if you're doing this. To maintain it though, who knows.
#19
ody_saraph_of_karsus
Jul 18, 2008 13:52:32 Whatever, just tying to help.
#20
1_ton_ghost
Jul 18, 2008 14:10:48
Whatever, just tying to help.

No, I feel you and all, wasn't a put down by any means the help is appreciated. Respect.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 1_ton_ghost Jul 09, 2008 14:18:29	Being a whopping +4 LA, is there a trimmed down version of Shade in much the same manner as Drow to Lesser Drow (PGtF)? That is, I was theorizing if dropping Spell Resistance was enough to go +3 LA In short, any more frugal suggestions in terms of character generation would be well receieved and appreciated.
#2 lord_karsus Jul 09, 2008 17:32:52	-Offhand, I don't believe that there is. An easy alternative, though, is to give a Human the Shadow Creature template from Manual of the Planes.
#3 phelf_der_zemit Jul 09, 2008 20:10:56	Or a personal favorite you could use the Shadowlord template in the splat book Unapproachable East. It's the make up of the shadow monks who follow Everis Cale, probrably one of the more notable shades of this time period.
#4 valgard Jul 10, 2008 2:53:29	I agree with the others, look for another template that has fewer LA. I think there are some in a Dragon issue, but I don't have any. The fact is that there's a wide range of options to look for.
#5 lord_karsus Jul 11, 2008 21:27:21	Or a personal favorite you could use the Shadowlord template in the splat book Unapproachable East. It's the make up of the shadow monks who follow Everis Cale, probrably one of the more notable shades of this time period. -Are you sure? I seem to remember someone saying something about a specific monster that seemed to be exactly what those guys were.
#6 phelf_der_zemit Jul 11, 2008 21:37:16	Acourding to Mr.Kemp (I'm unprepared and don't have the quote or link but,) they were monks who worshiped Mask and were there for granted the Shadowlord template which gives you a number of spelllike abilitys (Including Dimensional Door). I have yet to see a monster fitting their description but when you fit a monk with this template you get the spiting image of these fine folk on paper.
#7 lord_karsus Jul 11, 2008 21:39:17	-Oh, okay. Maybe I was thinking that the template was a specific monster, because that sounds somewhat familiar.
#8 1_ton_ghost Jul 12, 2008 14:26:22	I am largely aware of Mask's little bounty (very decent, Telflamm Shadowlord too), pretty much everything in Unapproachable East, Lords of Madness' template (also super sweet) and a million other shades (no pun intended) of shadow-esque character generation options. This is why I asked for advice on the Shade and Shade alone as there are enough differences to warrant my creative license in taking liberties w/ that. Now, this is all good advice to be sure, but not in terms of establishing the worth of Spell Resistance and it's impact on lvl adj. I was just hipshooting that the (Sp)'s of the drow and Darkvision were +1 and the SR was the other, hence +2 LA. S Shades, having a Hell of alot more powers bench 4. But SR is huge. Is it worth 1 though in terms of LA? Their shadowvision, shadowimage, stuff like that. What are some conservative estimates concerning (Su) and (Sp) worth?
#9 lord_karsus Jul 17, 2008 21:19:59	-Well, the Darkvision is "worth" 0, because Dwarves get Darkvision, and have no LAs. -What are all of the special abilities that the template gives?
#10 1_ton_ghost Jul 18, 2008 9:45:12	Well, darkvision isn't a catchall. Tons get it, but at what degree? If you're drow; 120 ft is totally respectable. There's a good chance you can spot someone at that range before you even need to consider making move/hide rolls to facilitate ambush. A nice comfort distance. And w/ range penalties at -1/10ft, unlikely they'll notice you. Just a few extra feet make a world of difference, or at least a free attack (Surprise Round). My statement prior wasn't that darkvision alone gets part of the LA for them. This superior version and some (Sp) probably account for +1 LA and the Spell Resistance the other +1, thusly +2 LA (speculation). Shades get only 60ft darkvision (i find that odd, but oh well), however, it's perfect, like devils. They can see through any darkness effect which is scary as Hell when it's on you providing constant concealment, thusly, any time is a good time to Hide (cover or concealment needed). Shades, off the top of my head (back of FRCS book), are "on/off" template wise. In darkness or shadow which means "not in the radius of a Daylight effect or brightly lit room." All their goodies only work in darkness, save maybe SR, darkvision, etc. +2 Con/Cha Darksight (as above) Fast Heal 2 50 ft speed +4 Luck (think it's luck) on all Saves +2 Competance bonus attacks/dmg Invisibility/will Shadow Figment (as Mirror Image) 3/day Spell Resistance Then you get into the higher lvl stuff. Shadow Leap, like Dimension Door Plane Shift to Shadow Plane, etc. Just trying to get a measure for what these might be worth as building blocks.
#11 lord_karsus Jul 18, 2008 10:51:02	-The Plusses to Constitution and Charisma are probably worth one +1 to LA, since there aren't any negatives to balance them out. The Invisibility at will also is probably worth another +1 to LA. The Spell Resistance is probably worth another +1 to LA. And then, the higher level things, with the Plane Shifting and the Shadow Leaping and stuff is probably worth another +1 to LA. After looking at all of that, the LA should really be more than +4, in my opinion.
#12 1_ton_ghost Jul 18, 2008 11:31:17	You'd think that, but it's only viable in shadow/darkness. That's pretty open-ended though. You get the Cha/Con bonuses, all the little (Sp)'s and so on, as long as you're not stuck in Anauroch at high noon or in a temple to Lathander or something radiant and bright. There's shadow everywhere, you just gotta get to it. W/out that though, all those goodies are for naught.
#13 lord_karsus Jul 18, 2008 11:48:49	-Right, but it's easy enough to get Shadow. A spellcaster can conjure his/her own Shadow, if he/she wants.
#14 1_ton_ghost Jul 18, 2008 12:43:39	Not in all cases and a clever antagonist will exploit that easilly enough. I do find it odd though that the City of Shade itself resides in the middle of Anauroch, a blistering desert w/out much, if any cover to provide any shadow at all. I mean, what's the archetypal killer in the desert, sun, right? Maybe cuz' it was remote, who knows. Granted, yes, it's their ancestral homelands before the pharrim turned it to Hell, but still. They could've flown the city anywhere after they popped up in the Dire Wood. Anyway, creating shadow: as a caster, are you really willing to eat 4 lvls of spell progression? That being said, Shades make incredible rogues and the occaisional melee type. The one I was grooming was w/ the petitioned hexblade fix using the alternative rule for their familiar (PHB II); some shadowy panther that debuffs when adjacent. Seemed appropriate. Oh, I did fail to mention their Control Light ability, however, this will not produce shadows. It only reduces illumination by 10's of %/character lvl. Hence, 5th lvl shade can drop the light 50%. Other mention was every 25% drop in illuminance adds +1 to Hide, though there is no mention in the PHB about light/dark modifiers at all...and there truly should be.
#15 lord_karsus Jul 18, 2008 13:15:40	-The Shadow Enclave is covered by a perpetual doom and gloom. I don't know if any of the novels that feature it mention this, but the sourcebooks do.
#16 ody_saraph_of_karsus Jul 18, 2008 13:18:04	-Right, but it's easy enough to get Shadow. A spellcaster can conjure his/her own Shadow, if he/she wants. Also The have the ability to control light making the place dimmer... just thowing that out there
#17 lord_karsus Jul 18, 2008 13:26:18	Also The have the ability to control light making the place dimmer... just thowing that out there -Right. That'd theoretically create shadow as well.
#18 1_ton_ghost Jul 18, 2008 13:50:53	Also The have the ability to control light making the place dimmer... just thowing that out there You may want to read a few posts back before posting yourself; that means I laid it out verbatim already. Not sure if that would actually create shadows in terms of physics. You're only reducing the level of light to foster more darkness is all. But I suppose it's their failsafe seeing as it's a Standard Action to work your (Sp)'s, so you're not attacking if you're doing this. To maintain it though, who knows.
#19 ody_saraph_of_karsus Jul 18, 2008 13:52:32	Whatever, just tying to help.
#20 1_ton_ghost Jul 18, 2008 14:10:48	Whatever, just tying to help. No, I feel you and all, wasn't a put down by any means the help is appreciated. Respect.