Really the big question for me is are mages in 1480 Realms useing more or less the same mage script now or is there a whole new script for the new magic system? Is there more of a universal system in 4e Realms or do you think its more like in the older Realms were mages all had different ways of writing down spells?
Am I the only one who thinks of stuff like this?
Ruathlek is the name of the old script used by illusionists. I snuck in a reference to it in my Hall of the Frostmaiden article.
As to your main question, I'd assume that arcane spellcasters would have had to learn a new mage script after the Spellplague.
I am probably one of very few players in my group (if not the only one) who has characters that speak Chondathan and Damaran. I mean, most players I know have trouble remembering the NPCs' names in an adventure...
But if I had to work it out, I think I would let there be as much arcane casters seeking new arcane scripts as there are looking at the old ones.
I, fact, I would guess there isn't really a lot of coherence - Rituals may be written in a certain 'common', commercial if you like, form, but in the same vein there are all these new types of magic, which everyone had to find out simultaneously, so I gather there are lots of different ways to scribe spells now - between power sources, traditions (classes), and cultures.
Gomez
One of the reasons I wanted to know this stuff because in my current campaign the players are trying to get the pieces of this ancient Netherese spell/ritual book of unspeakable power. I made sure that everyone knew that it was unspeakably EVIL, and it never occured to me that any one would actually try to read, but of course the wizard in the party wanted to read it, I should of known! I wasnt real sure to handle that. Should the character know Netherese before trying to read it? The way i ended up doing it is made him do an Arcane check I think I set the DC up there like a 30 or something but he ended up rolling a nat 20 so I had to let him understand at least part of it. I also had the runes and symbols that made up the text to be constantly shifting so it would make it even harder, if not impossible to read.
And Gomez you bring up a good point about Languages, I really try to play up the different languages in the Realms. All the players think that just becauase they have Common that they should be able to communicate with anybody, but the way i see it, Common is more of a trade tongue, so unless your an adventurer or a merchant or something, youre not going to know Common, They get so frustrated with me when theyre at the local pub trying to order a drink or whatever and the guy has no idea what they are saying. I really need to work on my faux Damaran, as it is now i ussually go with "blah blah blah blah blah blah?"
Modern elven is written with the Espruar script (as published in 3rd Edition FR campaign guide). I assume that a native elf (green, sun or moon) invented the Espruar script sometime after elves became well established in Faerûn during or following the First Flowering.
For Hamarfae you could use the 1e elven script (also called Espruar) or, alternatively, you could use the Rellanic script from 4th edition.
I figure that Rellanic is the alphabet used by eladrin and fey in the Feywild. It was probably re-introduced to Faerûn after the Feywild reestablished strong links with the Realms following the Spellplague. If Rellanic had fallen out of use for a few thousand years, then the characters would certainly have looked like ancient runes to modern elves. But now that ties have been established to the Feywild, Rellanic might have gained a newfound currency in the Realms.
Alternatively, you could use the 1e Espruar script as Hamarfae, and assume the eladrin from the Feywild also changed their alphabet sometime after Faerûn's elves left the Feywild. It would be natural for languages (and alphabets) to evolve (elvolve?) in different directions over time when two populations become isolated from each other.
I wonder which language is closer to ancient Seldruin? Often colonial dialects stick more closely to the way a language was spoken at the time the colony separated from the homeland, while the language in the native land may change at a faster rate. For instance, American English is supposedly much closer to the way English was spoken in Shakespeare's time while English in England has undergone more radical changes (such as no longer pronouncing many of their r's) over the last 400 years. Colonists may cleave more closely to traditions out of respect and nostalgia for the place they left. We might infer then that Faerûnian elven would be somewhat closer to ancient Seldruin than the modern Eladrin tongue, But given several thousand years you could expect both Feywild and Faerûnian languages to have changed quite a bit, even given the long life-span of fey.
And you got some good points on using the 1e version if Espruar. It always bugged me that they went and changed the Elven script for 3e and didnt even offer any explanation for it. People complain about the changes in 4e, but really i was more upset with the changes in 3e, they didnt explain why things, like the Shar getting smaller, happened, like we're just supposed to pretend the it was always that way, stuff like that just bothers me, makes it seem more fake, I mean yeah i know its a fictious world and all but still. So yeah you got some real good ideas on how to explain that. I really like the ideal of using 1-2e Espruar as Hamarfae, it looks more like magical runes to me.
And all this talk of different languages has me thinking, lets say a character finds an old Netherese ritual, should that character get a bonus to understanding that scroll if they speak Netherese, or is it just Arcane, and language doesnt really play into it?
I don't see language really playing into it. I see it more as you're attuning your self to the mystic energies contained in the scroll or spellbook thats being read, so it wouldnt matter what language it was written in, if you are able to attune yourself to those energies, then you would "understand" it.
Yeah, I see what youre saying and that does make sense, especialy for spells. I mean At-will and Encounter Attack spells arent even written down, so how do you learn them? So "attunment" would make sense in this case, but for rituals i would definitely see something like a magical language of sorts, Like this symbol means "stand like this" and this one means "wave you arm like this" and this other one is "say this arcane phrase", or what ever. Of course there are probably many different ways to perform the same ritual. 4e Realms though with the Spellplague I'm thinking magic is more universal and everyone uses the same system, well Wizards any way, Swordmages and other Arcane users have their own magical 'language" that they use . A wizard looking at a Swordmage's spell book isn't going to be able to read it, unless you multi-class and learn their system.
So ok yeah in 4e language would probably not play into it all, but say your character finds an old spellbook pre Spellplague, then i would say that it is quite possible that having knowledge of old languages may come in handy. Although I'm not sure where you would go to have some one teach you Seldruin.
The Olin Gisiae in Evereska and Myth Drannor.
Who or what are the Olin Gisiae? I consider myself pretty well versed in Realmslore but im not familiar with this term. Oh wait thats what google is for!
Ahhh ok, The Elven "Secret Keepers" So yeah it would make sense for them to know Seldruin, but not very likely that they would teach it to any non Elves. And are they still around in 4e?
Lost Empires of Faerun.
18DELTA(CYRIC IS KOOL!)
Ahhh ok, The Elven "Secret Keepers" So yeah it would make sense for them to know Seldruin, but not very likely that they would teach it to any non Elves. And are they still around in 4e?
I am very much assuming that they are (though I haven't used them actively yet).
Gomez
I don't see language really playing into it. I see it more as you're attuning your self to the mystic energies contained in the scroll or spellbook thats being read, so it wouldnt matter what language it was written in, if you are able to attune yourself to those energies, then you would "understand" it.
Yeah, I see what youre saying and that does make sense, especialy for spells. I mean At-will and Encounter Attack spells arent even written down, so how do you learn them? So "attunment" would make sense in this case, but for rituals i would definitely see something like a magical language of sorts, Like this symbol means "stand like this" and this one means "wave you arm like this" and this other one is "say this arcane phrase", or what ever. Of course there are probably many different ways to perform the same ritual. 4e Realms though with the Spellplague I'm thinking magic is more universal and everyone uses the same system, well Wizards any way, Swordmages and other Arcane users have their own magical 'language" that they use . A wizard looking at a Swordmage's spell book isn't going to be able to read it, unless you multi-class and learn their system.
So ok yeah in 4e language would probably not play into it all, but say your character finds an old spellbook pre Spellplague, then i would say that it is quite possible that having knowledge of old languages may come in handy. Although I'm not sure where you would go to have some one teach you Seldruin.
Actually, I think swordmages and wizards use essentially the same form of magic, but with very different spell lists. I could be wrong, but I always had the impression that swordmages are, at the level of the foundation of the tradition, basically what happens if you take a wizard, give him a swordsman tutor, as was common amongst the ancient elves, IIRC, and being rather clever, he learns to use his spells to enhance his bladework, and becomes something more than either.
I'm sure there are swordmage traditions that train in wildly different manners, but I would imagine that an eladrin swordmage of myth drannor would be able to read the spellbook of a mage of myth drannor.
also, don't swordmages have a feat that gives them a spellbook?
just some thoughts.
Also, about the netherese scroll. I don't suppose it's one of the Nether Scrolls, themselves, eh? Now that could be an epic quest. Of course, they weren't evil, so that may not work...but the Nether Scrolls could certainly come into play if you wanted to, as an outgrowth of the revealed import of the scroll they found.
One more thought, before I go. The Netherese worked magic in a unique way that has not been duplicated before, concurrently, or after, so far as I know. It was totally different than the way the elves of the time did magic, and pre-spellplague magic worked mostly the same as the old Elven magic, IIRC. While the Netherese did have spellbooks and use scrolls, the way in which they learned spells was even different than modern, or 3e mages. If they didn't learn it upon first reading, that spell was lost to them, forever.
Finally, when they used spells, they drew upon the weave itself, allowing their common folk to do cantras(cantrips) and allowing for the making/use of mythallar, and the creation of quasi permanent enchantments.
Just some general stuff that might help you add some depth to the situation. the old netheril sourcebook goes in to far more detail, of course, and even gives you some archwizards who could have scribed the scroll.
Ahhh ok, The Elven "Secret Keepers" So yeah it would make sense for them to know Seldruin, but not very likely that they would teach it to any non Elves. And are they still around in 4e?
I am very much assuming that they are (though I haven't used them actively yet).
Gomez
Works for me, although it would be very cool if you did use them, and made it "official"
@ Doctor Bad Wolf: You bring up alot of good points, enough that I think it would be too much to quote You.
There are certainly similiarities between Wizard and Swordmage spells, but its different enough that a Swormage couldnt look at a wizard spell and say oh yeah I could cast that, unless they Multi-Classed into wizard. I mean I suppose they would understand the jist of it, like oh this is a fire spell, but actually casting the spell would be out of the question, So the way im seeing it is that its like a different magical language.
You bring up a good point about the Nether Scrolls. I'm not ever sure what they would do for a character if one was discovered, perhaps a bonus to Arcane rolls? or maybe bonus XP? Or perhaps you gain magical insight to the point where you could cast a spell from another class with out multi-classing? I could see that as a feat or something, call it Magical Lore or something and it gives you the ability to pick a spell from another arcane class that you can use with out Multi-Classing.
And yes the Netherese Arcanists did cast spells differently, more like a mana point system, but they were still the same spells, they just cast them a little differently, so I would still count that as being the same magical "language" just they didnt "forget" the spells after they cast them. This as me wondering though about the fall of Netheril. When the weave was destroyed, could 4e magic be used at that time as well? Or was all magic out period? Hmmmmm?
I guess really there are no right or wrong answers here, basically it boils down to how you see it in your game or how your character sees it. Still I think its something interesting to think about, and I'm curious as to what other people's views are. So how does everybody else see magic as working? Is it more like an atunement thing? Is it more like a language that you have to study? Does the magic come from within you or does it all emanate from the Metatext? It is possible that I am putting entirely too much thought into this.
The only thing is, magical traditions tend to be secretive, insular, and not at all standardized. So the symbols used for functions might change from school to school, and even tend to be individualized by particular magic user. For instance, the way one wizard would write a "multiplication" sign might be peculiar to him, he might use an asterisk, where another might use a dot, or an 'x' or put the multiplied number in parentheses. Just as in Boolean algebra, they use different symbols to stand for the same functions, just depending on school of thought and tradition.
So ultimately, magical formulae express the same concepts, but the order, format, and symbols used may be highly variable. A wizard will need to study another's writings closely to be able to suss out what is what, and it will take time to "translate" his idiosyncratic style.
Furthermore, even if a wizard can make out the symbols and formulae, it might be a "branch" of wizardry that the mage has not studied. For instance, one might be well versed in trignonometry, but then if one were to stumble upon a formula for calculus, it might be beyond one's ability to comprehend, even if one could read the formula. You could be well versed in Fourier transforms, but not be able to make heads or tales of topology, or stationary perturbation theory.
Magic is like that. It is the physics of that universe, and the expression of it is more like math than an actual language.
Alternatively, there may also be a metaphor you could draw between magical traditions and different programming languages, like Cobol, Lisp, Perl, and Virtual Basic. Someone might be skilled in one and clueless about another, although could maybe identify similarities in form and format, perhaps even make out certain portions of the "code" although not enough to use it for his own purposes.
But yeah magic as a complex mathmatical formula makes alot of sense, I think you defintely explained it way better than I tried to.
I guess then that rituals may be a little more simplier being as theyre not restricted by class, Anyone, regardless of magical traing can read them and use them, asuming they have the right key skill and the Ritual caster feat. I'm seeing the rituals being more like a cooking recipe or something, like in the movies where they have the witches gathered around a boiling caldron and are adding in eye of newt or what ever.
nice stuff.
silver: glad I provoked some thought. I kind of figured that swordmage and wizard spells would be written in the same language, but it's like two kinds of math, or technical manuals on different types of devices or practices. They use the same model to learn their magic, but the focus and application is different, and thus their spells, is how I see it.
of course, I don't think either of us is really "wrong" in this one.
Speaking of Aberian Swordmages, I bet they would have a whole different magical "language", did Abeir even have a Weave? Perhaps theyve been on the 4e magic system all this time.
It is interesting to note that dragons have/had a goddess of magic named Kereska. I am thoroughly convinced (although it's never been explicitly stated) that Kereska was merely a draconic aspect of Mystryl. Whether Kereska "died" when Mystryl died is unclear to me. If she did, it is also unclear to me whether Mystra created a new version of Kereska, or whether she just maintained the alias seemlessly. She is noted as having a presence during the Time of Troubles because in Cult of the Dragon it states that Kereska killed him off (or at least subsumed his worship and portfolio) during the Time of Troubles. When Midnight took over the Mystra role I am guessing she inherited the Kereska alias as well.
Dragon gods seemed to be downplayed somewhat in 2e, and hardly worth noting in 3e. Several are conspicuously absent from the 3e plane of Dragon Eyrie. Doesn't actually mean they weren't around, but the fact that they were not mentioned is suggestive of their absence. Only Null, Task, Hlal and Tiamat were indicated as having dominions in Dragon Eyrie in 3e (discussed in the PGTF), and were in fact the only dragon gods I recall being mentioned throughout 3e.
I'm sure there's a story to be told about the fate of the other dragon gods. My guess is that several were just draconic aspects of other Faerunian deities.
Astilabor could well have been a draconic aspect of Waukeen (and I suppose Vergadain and Dumathoin are slight possibilities). Althernatively, Astilabor could easily have been slain by either Task (draconic god of greed) or Tiamat after she re-ascended to godhood from archfiend status in 1359 DR in a bid to consolidate Tiamat's dominion over the portfolio of greed, eliminate a rival, and elevate her divine rank. Astilabor's death may have been accomplished during the Time of Troubles (would have been easier to do then) but could have occurred after. Which doesn't rule out the possibility that Astilabor could have been both an aspect of Waukeen and killed off (in her draconic aspect at least) by Task or Tiamat.
Garyx the All-Destroyer could easily have been a draconic aspect of Talos/Gruumsh. In that his portfolio included destruction and his symbol was a single draconic eye, it makes for an excellent match with Gruumsh/Talols. His portfolio also included fire which makes Kossuth almost as good a candidate.
Lendys may have been an aspect of Anachtyr (or vice-versa; no reason human gods can't be aspects of draconic deities) who merged with Tyr circa -238 DR. Tyr probably maintained the alias of Lendys for those dragons who cared. He probably served a valuable role as a god of justice until Bahamut reclaimed his divinity in 1358 DR. Whatever his status as an aspect, I imagine Lendys was killed in the Time of Troubles or shortly after (perhaps by Tiamat) his portfolio subsumed into Bahamut's.
Tamara had the portfolios of life, light, mercy, and forgiveness, which makes her a decent match for Selûne or Chauntea. I would vote for Selûne.
I have no opinion about Zorquan, although I am sure there must be a good story there too.
Now, all these entities were gods. So I imagine they did not have a presence on Abeir. Except perhaps in secret--for those on Abeir who still worshipped gods; although their prayers must have gone unanswered. These draconic deities held power on Toril for those dragons who remained behind on Toril when Abeir slit off and was given to the Primordials as their exclusive domain.
Sorry to ramble so far off topic. But to bring it back home, all this was to say that although the dragons had a god of magic named Kereska, I think she was probably an aspect of Mystryl/Mystra. I don't think Kereska was ever a primordial and I don't think she had a presence in Abeir.
My sense is that Abeir did not have a weave, as such, that it may have always had 4e (or similar style) magic based on manipulating raw magic, without the aid of a magical infrastructure. If so, then in the wake of the Spellplague, dragonborn and genasi mages transplanted from Abeir may have been instrumental in helping Toril's magic users to rediscover how to use magic in the absence of a Weave.
Such skills and insights may have been crucial to elevating the art to the powerful state in which we find it in the few decades following the collapse of the Weave. Had not Abeiran mages imparted some degree of magical knowledge to Torilian magic wielders, then they might still be floundering in a magical "stone age" about now, trying to reinvent the magical equivalent of the wheel.
This system might hav become more widespread as material (and verbal?) components of old are not existant in the 15th century magic. The silence spell is not present too aye?
a) Yes, I believe too that a Swordmage could understand a least some of the wizard spells espesially if he had a friend wizard and they were both from Myth Drannor (they might even had the same instructor). The reason why these classes can't learn from each other is clearly the DoTA-and-WoW-like Game Mechanics of the 4e. They are both arcane users. Ok, I agree with dr. Badwolf about the complexity of the scripts. I recently had dificulties to read Maths for my University cause it had diferent sumbols from what we did in school (Very nice comparison Dr. :D )
b) on the other hand I cant say that the term: "You cast a spell and then you forget it" makes sense to me! I mean you are a wizard about 23 years with practice. How many times did you cast fireball and the bloody magic missile. HOW DO YOU FORGET SOMETHING YOU CAST 3/4 or even MORE TIMES A DAY????? (both in 4e and in 3.5e) (best system for me: the point system like the psionics in 3.5 = You have magic energy and you spent it)
c) Sorry I am out of the topic :P Well, yeah, about magic scripts: Let's say I'm a wizard from Waterdeep. In my quest I arive at Thay and I find a Sroll (spell in 3e, ritual in 4e). You mean that I wouldn't be able to read it???? perhaps. Are the pc's gonna be exited???? no :P So, for my point of view the magic Scrips of the same type (Arcane, divine, etc) are not VERY diferent. It might take some time to "translate" it but since you have an idea about what you're reading you can do it :P
Spell preparation was called "memorization" but it wasn't really that. It was basically about casting the spell 95% of the way, charging up the brain with mystical energies, and then leaving the last few steps to cast quickly at a moment's notice by triggering it with key words, gestures, and whatever materials were required.
Some spells require 10, 15, 20 minutes or more to cast from start to completion. That would never do in a battle. You can't get the troll to sit still for a few minutes while you fish out your spellbook and read out all the formulae, do all the rituals and go through all the motions. "Hold on, just sit there for a few minutes while I cast this spell to fry you!" No self-respecting monster would let a wizard get away with that.
Vancian spellcasting was a technique that let you "hang" spells, holding them in suspension for triggering when needed. And it was probably a nifty feature of the Weave that let you do that. Probably now, without a Weave, you can't really hang spells like that. You probably have to finish casting spells fairly contemporaneously with the time that you start casting them. Thus you have your rituals that you can perform that take time to cast. Fortunately with the 4e magic system, there are spells that you can cast in (relatively) unlimited fashion fairly quickly without having to "charge them up". So there are some advantages to manipulating magic without a weave, but some things were probably lost as well.
Sorry I am out of the topic :P
No need for apologies, we're talking about different magic systems here, or different "languages", so youre good, still on topic.
And @ Gray Richardson, Yes! Vancian magic, I knew that system had a name, but could not think of it. Named for the author Jack Vance, is that right? I still havn't ready any of his books, but theyre on my list. But any way this is the Realms, so lets call it Mystran Magic, instead, I think it sounds cooler any way.
So ok that gives us Netherese Magic, Mystaran Magic, which i'm assuming that both used see the same "language" or "code", but employing vastly different casting methods.
Then we have Southern Magic, which uses a different "code" (the Thoth Script), but is still very much a Mystaran way of casting. I'm sure Kara Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara all have their own "code" as well but still Mystran.
Then theres Elven High Magic which uses its own "language", Im not sure if I would put that under the Mystran system or not, all magic came from the Weave, but they seem more like rituals in 4e.
Then we have the 4e system, what would you call that? Deneirian? the Metatext system?
And different classes may or maynot have a slightly different "code" and different regions, especialy Returned Abeir, would have a different "code" as well.
So basically we have 3 different Magic Systems, which all use vastly different "codes" or "languages" to acheive the same results.
. Sould we create them????? It could be fun :D I mean with fotoshop and other interesting programms such a task is easier that it sounds. It just needs coordination and cooparation. Who's with me :D ???????Dethek (Dwarven), Thorass (Common), and Espruar (elven) alphabets can be found on P.86 of the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, with interesting information about languages and scripts also to be found on p.85.
The Draconic alphabet can be found in the 4e Draconomicon.
Hamarfae, if you want to use the 2e Espruar script looks like this:
The Imaskari alphabet probably looks the same or similar to the Tuigan alphabet shown in The Horde box set on one of the accompanying (free floating) cardstock pages found in the box. If you have the Horde PDF file, which is available free from WotC on this page: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/do...
at this link: www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads...
You can find 3 interesting alphabets on p. 151 of the PDF file, including Semphari, Ra-Khati, and Tuigan.
After some thought, I have concluded that Tuigan is probably a modern version of Imaskari, and may be identical, or possibly evolved, to some extent, from the ancient Imaskari alphabet. To what degree, if any, they are similar is a matter for scholarly debate. Comparison with the Ra-Khati alphabet indicates (to me) that the Tuigan and Ra-Khati alphabets are probably related. I am guessing that Ra-Khati has diverged farther from Imaskari under Tabotan and Shou influence. But that guess could be wrong. It may be that Ra-Khati is more faithful to ancient Imaskari. But I haven't done that much research, and a more attentive reading of the Horde supplement might be dispositive of the matter, or at least give interesting clues.
The Semphari alphabet appears unrelated to the Tuigan and Ra-khati alphabets, so I am guessing it could have derived from a number of possible alternative origins. It might be a distant cousin of Thorass. It might be derived from a Zakharan alphabet. It might be derived from the Auran script. It might be a corruption of an ancient Mulhorandi script, possibly derived in some fashion similar to the way in which hieratic and demotic scripts of Egypt related to the Egyptian hieroglyphs. Also, I believe that the Mulhorandi also write with the Celestial script (aka Supernal) and the Semphar alphabet may therefore be derived from the Celestial script. As I understand it, the Celestial (Supernal) alphabet will be revealed in a 4e supplement called The Plane Above to be released in April. I am guessing that the Supernal alphabet will not look anything like the Semphari alphabet, so when The Plane Above comes out we can confirm or discount if there is a link one way or the other. Whetever the origin of Semphari, it may be a clue to another ancient script that may have magical uses. But then again, Semphari might have just been invented by a clever monk (a la Saints Cyril and Methodius) or king (a la King Sejong) or other Sempharian sage at some time in the past, and may not be related to other historical/magical alphabets of Toril.
Brian James is a much better scholar of the Horde and Kara-Tur than am I, so maybe he has some insights into the origin of the 3 scripts in the Horde supplement, if he can be entreated to weigh in on the matter.
Though never explicitly stated, the Ba'etith seems to be linked to Mystryl/Mystra. Members of the Ba'etith may serve a function similar to the Magister, and Mystra's chosen. I strongly suspect that Hsssthak and/or the Terraseer/Arthindol ARE chosen of Mystryl, or ancient equivalents of the Magister whose purpose is to spread knowledge of magic.
See this article: www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc... as well as Serpent Kingdoms for more information. It seems clear, though that the Nether Scrolls were not just a Sarrukh artifact, but were added to by Batrachi and Aearee mages with the intent of preserving and spreading magical knowledge. The Ba'etith may have modern members that are undisclosed. For all we know the Magisters were members of the Ba'etith. Perhaps there are elven high mages that are secret members as well.
how would the creator raaces magic fit into that silversword?
Why are you asking me!? Well really the only thing I really know about creator race magic is the Nether Scrolls, which is what Netherese magic was based off so I would put it under that. Oh and there was Dragon Magic, which was still Vancian style magic, but only they cut out somatic and material components IIRC.
What do you suppose Thoth Script would look like? Im thinkin hieroglyphics.
Eric Boyd had said in the forums that, in his opinion, they were not Egyptian analogs from a planet based on an Egyptian-like culture, but the real McCoy from Earth. In his writings about the Mulan and the Mulhorandi pantheon, his stated intent was that the Mulan were from Earth. And this makes perfect sense, since Ed Greenwood has stated many times that the Forgotten Realms has strong ties by portal and planar rift and other links with Earth, and in fact much of Earth's mythology and knowledge of mythical creatures and magic is due to "forgotten" links with Toril.
There is every reason to believe, then, that the Thoth script was indeed either Hieroglyphic writing, or alternatively a strong argument could be made that it is Hieratic writing. Or both.
Yeah, not really a right or wrong here. Many different ways we could look at this, just as in the Realms Im sure they all have different ideas and explanations on what magic is, and why it works, probably more so now that Mystra is no longer around runnin the show. Even among the same classes. I would imagine that Genasi Swordmages from Abeir had a very different way of doing things than say the Elven Swordmages of Myth Drannor.
Speaking of Aberian Swordmages, I bet they would have a whole different magical "language", did Abeir even have a Weave? Perhaps theyve been on the 4e magic system all this time.
I would guess that they probably did, based purely on the impression that the 4e metatext seems to be what magic naturally does without mystra's influence.
then again, they may have approached magic in the way that Netheril Arcanists did back in the day, or in a similar manner.
It would not be too much a leap to assume then that Giants may have been exposed to the Futhark runes used by the ancient Germanic cultures. There is in fact some resemblance between Germanic runes and the Dethek alphabet used by the Dwarves, which is also the script that is (currently) used to write Jotun (although, for the life of me I can't remember the source which said that Jotun uses Dethek, but I seem to recall it being said somewhere). Although, in the past, I believe that Jotun would have been written with the Primordial alphabet, as pictured in The Plane Below. I imagine that Primordial would have been the predominant script for writing Jotun until the Dwarves introduced Dethek sometime after -16,000 DR.
The similarities between the Futhark runes and Dethek might mean that Dwarves gave the runes to Earth's Norse peoples, or alternatively Dethek could have conceivably been modeled on the Futhark.
Found this online, I could see Giants using this, probably Dwarves as well.
Runes are intriguing, and there are a lot of modern assumptions and even additions that really go far afield of the original runic script.
The blank "Wyrd" rune, for instance, is a modern addition. It didn't stand for "wyrd" until modern authors who were poor on their scholarship decided to add it for what they thought was missing: the concept of fate. No "blank" rune ever existed in reality, until it was invented in the modern age.
Additionally, there are several futharks. Some, like the Elder Futhark (above, minus the "blank" stone) have 24 runes. Other sets are slightly different, both in number and in the way the runes themselves are carved, depending on their origin.
Runes are ideographic and they are phonic, meaning that they stand for an idea (a concept) as well as a vocal sound. In later periods of their we see them being used as a phonetic alphabet, in order to spell out words on monuments and various inscriptions. But when used alone or for mystical purposes, they are ideas/concepts. Inguz (or Ingwaz), for instance, meant "fertility." It also could stand for the god Ing, also known as Freyr (aka Frey, or Fro Ing), and is meant to call to mind the idea of an unfolding new and healthy growing period.
As for their "origin" it might be interesting to consider that the god Odinn "picked up" the runes after a great sacrifice and period of suffering. Runes are magical, and most magical practices in Old Norse culture are practiced primarily by women. Just as the saami peoples had their female "noaides" (shaman-spiritualist wise woman), the ancient Norse relied on similar "volvas" who practiced various spiritual arts in addition to reading the runes.
Connecting to the giants, or the Jotnar, it's important to remember that Jotnar weren't necessarily gigantic versions of humans. They were counterparts to the gods in some ways, and some Jotnar joined the ranks of the gods. They were powerful to be sure, but they intermarried with the gods or had children with them on occassion. Unlike the Greek gods, not all such pairings led to monstrous giants or beasts, but typically to beings like themselves. Did they use magic like the runes? Perhaps. But the runes are best associated with the Aesir, the gods of the Norse that were most associated with the sky. Jotnar were more associated with the Earth, closer to the Vanir (the branch of deities more associated with earthly concerns - planting, fertility, seasons, and the like). The Aesir were generally more concerned with learning, society, strategy, and warfare.
Anyway, not sure if this is remotely helpful... but there ya go.
for instance, Ing being a name for Freyr. It's possible, perhaps even probable, but not a certainty by any means.
not that it's important to the discussion in any way.
Dethek and the Futhark: I would wager that the similarity is a product of Tolkien's influence. He used the Runes as inspiration for Dwarven Runes in Middle Earth, and DnD dwarven script has looked similar ever since.
Also of note, in the mythology, the use of Runes was somewhat more commonly male magic, while siethr(sp) was the more shamanistic female magic. Odin knew both, because Frigg taught him her magic, and he taught her the Runes(possibly. she may have gained them in another way, or known them before him, there are conflicting theories.) What's really interesting to me, is that Bards and Barbarians would be the most likely servants of Odin in a norse themed dnd setting, since Odin was the font of both poetic inspiration, and berserker fury. In fact a strong case can, and has been, made that the two are founded in the same source, Odin aside. That they are essentially the same, focused differently. I suppose wizards as well, with their focus on gaining knowledge and mystical power.
Another note, giants in the Eddas occasionally were known to use runes, though these were particularly learned members of their race, generally.
completely offtopic: the runepriest makes me somewhat sad, for one reason: I recently starting playing with the idea of Runes as a power source. I've got stuff floating around in my head for a Rune Chanter(playing off stuff from the Havamal for control powers), a warrior who inscribes runes on himself to boost his abillities, a rune healer(again, some ideas from the Havamal, expanded on greatly) and some even more vague ideas. i was really excited about it, too.
Nice post. I could nitpick, but a lot of it is unclear in original lore sources, and a healthy amount of scholarly extrapolation has gone into what any given person learns about the gods, runes, and related subjects. Mostly you're spot on, and what I'd disagree with falls into the aforementioned grey bits.
for instance, Ing being a name for Freyr. It's possible, perhaps even probable, but not a certainty by any means.
Well, I didn't want to get into the complexities, similarities and differences among the German, Anglo-Saxon, Rus, Norse, and Icelandic derivations of proto-Indo-European faiths. Sometimes what we know of the nordic/germanic gods and runes are simple variants, sometimes they're 1:1 correspondents, sometimes they're quite divergent. Trying to peel all of that apart really can be lengthy, so I was going more for solidly known general knowledge.
Also of note, in the mythology, the use of Runes was somewhat more commonly male magic, while siethr(sp) was the more shamanistic female magic. Odin knew both, because Frigg taught him her magic, and he taught her the Runes(possibly. she may have gained them in another way, or known them before him, there are conflicting theories.) What's really interesting to me, is that Bards and Barbarians would be the most likely servants of Odin in a norse themed dnd setting, since Odin was the font of both poetic inspiration, and berserker fury. In fact a strong case can, and has been, made that the two are founded in the same source, Odin aside. That they are essentially the same, focused differently. I suppose wizards as well, with their focus on gaining knowledge and mystical power.
For runes as "more commonly male magic" are you thinking of galdra as rune-speech or something else entirely? I'd be curious to know what you're referring to in the mythology, as I'd love to see something that specifically speaks of runic magic as primarily a male practice.
So far as I know, old nordic/germanic magic can (roughly) be broken down into:
Seidhr: a dark magic to spy on, spirit-curse, and generally damage one's enemies, usually thought of as an evil practice and mostly confined to women. Well, or ergi... as trucking with dark evil spirits wasn't considered "manly" in an open, honest sense of confronting one's enemies directly.
Spae-craft: shamanistic premonitory magic, primarily women, deeply associated with communing (and sometimes possession by) spirits of various origin. Often mistaken for seidhr in modern scholarship.
Galdra: song- and poetry-magic, thought by some to be tied to ancestral spirits -or- thought by others to be tied to rune-sounds and the breath. Not a lot is known, although I'd agree that both gods and giants, men and women, were seen to use galdra.
Runa/runes: use of ideographic symbology and mystery knowledge for a variety of purposes, from healing to harm. Runes could be carved on anything, but for mystical purposes were typically carved on bones or sticks (in later periods, wood, stone, and metal objects). Blood, spit, or other life fluids were used to sometimes amplify runes, though not always. Both men and women are seen to use runes, but I'd argue that it's heavily weighed toward women.
Herbal lore with mystical elements: knowledge and use of various herbs for healing, harm, or other purposes, both on a spiritual and physical level. Initially, primarily female practice until it was actively suppressed by the new Catholic faith (like all the shamanic practices) and taken over by men (specifically, monks of the new faith) and heavily modified.
Again, this is a huge simplification with a lot of cross-cultural assumptions and mashing together, but it's what we generally believe to be true.
Another note, giants in the Eddas occasionally were known to use runes, though these were particularly learned members of their race, generally.
That's... true, but just as an aside... do you really think this was "true" or more of a "modern" interpretation by Snorri, knowing his history and intent?
Good stuff people. I actually wanted Norse runes but the only ones i could really find were the Germanic ones, Im not sure what the differences, if any, are. I could see making up our own Realms version based off runes from our own world.
Norse is something of an encompassing term, including Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, and the Faeroe Islands. For many of those locales, the Elder Futhark is fine but it's more "proto-Viking" (in that it's circa 150-500 AD, roughly). In later periods, there are changes in the runes depending on tribes and the evolution of scandinavian languages, and so the names-sounds-meanings can be somewhat different in the various countries:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark
Just don't use a "blank" rune, and those written interpretations (in the picture previously posted) are a little wonky (modern interpretations). The Elder Futhark is often thought to have been known only to the elite, educated wealthy leaders - and not all of them.
The Younger Futhark is the set used in the later period of Viking Age scandinavia, when literacy was much higher (not only limited to the elite) and trade was more widespread.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Futhark
Hope that helps!
"Fate".
Yeah I dont like the blank rune, seems kinda dumb to me, I mean how would one know the differece between the blank rune and just a space? Still there should be some kind of symbol for "Fate".
That's why the blank rune doesn't make any sense.
Technically, the Norse didn't believe in "fate" as we understand the modern term, but rather a belief in "wyrd," but as for a rune that represents unfolding mystery and chance in life the rune Perth fits that particular bill:
runesecrets.com/rune-meanings/perthro-ru...
Unlike the Greeks, the Norse didn't have "The Fates" as goddesses, but a rather different set of goddesses called "The Norns." It's tempting to think of them as a corollary to the Greek goddesses, but the Norns were much more. Even the Gods could not escape Wyrd (which the Norns oversee even for the Gods), although individual choice is paramount in the unfolding of wyrd.
Wyrd is sometimes loosely translated as fate, but this is a really imprecise understanding of wyrd. Wyrd is the sum of what is (history), what is unfolding (current events), and what is likely to happen (the future). Wyrd is in motion, as it is not just personal "fate" but depends on the outcome of everyone's choices in life. One can allow the future to unfold without making dramatic choices, but that too is a choice. History gives the framework for what could happen, and everyone's current choices are "likely" to follow a trajectory based on those histories, but the future is not set. Choices can dramatically impact the future. Chance also plays a part, as there is a certain randomness to life. What will happen is usually what is most likely to happen, but "fate" is not set and unchangeable. Wyrd, rather, is moving, constantly unfolding, and choice is central to it.
Also see the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, which coincidentally also begins on page 58, for 3e rules regarding rune casting.
Also Magic of Faerûn p. 17 for a little about rune magic.
Also the 3.5e Players Guide to Faerûn p. 69, for updated info on Runecasters.
Also, Volo's Guide to All Things Magical is rife with talk of runes. Although, in most instances it uses the term "rune" synonymously with magical glyph. It does mention elven runes inscribed in ancient Espruar (I assume this means the Hamarfae script) and a lot of info about the Runes of Chaos. See also the Runes of Chaos adventure supplement in the Spellbound box set. Also p. 120 of Volo's Guide to All Things Magical has interesting things to say about the runes used by the ancient Rus and also about acquiring rune knowledge.
That's why the blank rune doesn't make any sense.
Technically, the Norse didn't believe in "fate" as we understand the modern term, but rather a belief in "wyrd," but as for a rune that represents unfolding mystery and chance in life the rune Perth fits that particular bill:
runesecrets.com/rune-meanings/perthro-ru...
Unlike the Greeks, the Norse didn't have "The Fates" as goddesses, but a rather different set of goddesses called "The Norns." It's tempting to think of them as a corollary to the Greek goddesses, but the Norns were much more. Even the Gods could not escape Wyrd (which the Norns oversee even for the Gods), although individual choice is paramount in the unfolding of wyrd.
Wyrd is sometimes loosely translated as fate, but this is a really imprecise understanding of wyrd. Wyrd is the sum of what is (history), what is unfolding (current events), and what is likely to happen (the future). Wyrd is in motion, as it is not just personal "fate" but depends on the outcome of everyone's choices in life. One can allow the future to unfold without making dramatic choices, but that too is a choice. History gives the framework for what could happen, and everyone's current choices are "likely" to follow a trajectory based on those histories, but the future is not set. Choices can dramatically impact the future. Chance also plays a part, as there is a certain randomness to life. What will happen is usually what is most likely to happen, but "fate" is not set and unchangeable. Wyrd, rather, is moving, constantly unfolding, and choice is central to it.
This reminds me of (and is probably the inspiration of) Everis Cale's description of a dwarven rune in Shadow's Wittness. I can't remember the specifics but it is not fate, yet what some would describe the dwarven term of fate to be. It is more of the ineveitable reaction to your choices. Very deep line of thinking.
And Gray, Runes of Chaos sounds awesome! Ill defeintely have to check into that.
Maybe he doesn't want some fanboy gettin all pissy during a game over something trivial?But any way, In my Realms, yes I could do whatever, but Im lookin at this for everybodys Realms, and If I find some actual runes and/or glyphs from official Realmslore, then that would add some legitimancy to it.
That and yeah Delta does have a point, I dont like getting yelled at by fanbois.
You could hear the sound of gloating through the internet, couldn't you? Yeah Oghma does make sense actually, I could see a lot of wizards picking him as a patron deity.
Yeah Oghma does make sense actually, I could see a lot of wizards picking him as a patron deity.
Back when I was first playing in 1st edition FR, I played a human wizard of Cormyr who was a devout worshipper of Oghma. My GM at the time strongly wanted me to choose Mystra but I went with Oghma. In roleplaying, whenever my wizard would find a new spell or lorebook he would whisper prayers to Oghma for help in translating old scrolls and tomes. And sometimes my GM would award a little bonus for various dice rolls. It was pretty cool, really.
Now that I really think about it, as much as I liked Mystra personally, I never chose her as a religious patron for any of my characters. Not sure why.
Espurar:
"Fireball-elvenrune-symbol":
"Move-your-hands-like-this"+"Use-the-material-X"+"Call-the-essence-of-fire-with-the-word-X-while-your-hands-sphape-the-symbol-of-air-and-etc etc"
Dethek:
"Fireball-dethekrune-symbol":
"Move-your-hands-like-that"+"Use-the-material-Y"+"Call-the-name-of-heat-and-air-with-word-A+B"
Can someone try to make a rune-scribed version of the spell. I would like to see how it looks like, even if we are not final for the right symbols.
(on the scroll/spellbook it sould be stated at least something in actual language to help the caster understand if he succeded or not. Using the above example under all these runes and symbols it could be a text in elven stating: "After the cast crimson flames lash out from your open palm creating a pyro-sphere that creates an explosion in the desired location. Do not try this at home.)
2)Well now that you mention it Ogma seems to have more relationship with magic than Corellon or other gods.
3) I still have problem to swallow the whole spell system by sorcerers's side (both in 3.5 and 4e):
Well ok, the Sorcerer, due to his background, has a couple of spells in his atzenda but then ..... OH What a MIRACLE: He gained a new LEVEL and ...... 2 new spells are now scribed into his mind because ...............???????
He gained a new lv. Sould he at least practice them throughout the previous days???? If he did, soudnt I let him cast it 1 or 2 times when he is near his LEVEL-UP (= understanding of his new spells) before he is allowed to cast it???
This seems like a compelling argument for Oghma being the new deity of magic, or at least magical research, if it's only a "mathematical" or "formulaic" understanding that's required for magic (given that the weave is gone). It could give Oghma a Boccob-like relationship to magic.
Cyric was a legitimate god of magic, as he possessed the portfolio of Illusion. I'm not up to date on the status of that portfolio in 4e, but he could very well still claim dominion over illusion, and could even conceivably attempt to expand his claim to the whole portfolio of magic in general--Alexander Haig-style ("I'm in charge here!")--as Cyric is the only remaining god of magic still extant.
Cyric is the only remaining god of magic still extant.
Corellon says hi.
3) I still have problem to swallow the whole spell system by sorcerers's side (both in 3.5 and 4e):
Well ok, the Sorcerer, due to his background, has a couple of spells in his atzenda but then ..... OH What a MIRACLE: He gained a new LEVEL and ...... 2 new spells are now scribed into his mind because ...............???????
He gained a new lv. Sould he at least practice them throughout the previous days???? If he did, soudnt I let him cast it 1 or 2 times when he is near his LEVEL-UP (= understanding of his new spells) before he is allowed to cast it???
Sorcerers are a little odd being that they dont study spells, they just get them naturally, like an in-born thing, like the Force. But still it is a little odd that one day the Sorcerer wakes up and suddenly knows a new spell, I guess you could explain that a number of ways, maybe he/she had some sort of vision, or perhaps his/her god gave it to him? Or perhaps its something they already "knew", they just wasnt powerful enough yet to channel those energies, unti lnow.
Well, I didn't want to get into the complexities, similarities and differences among the German, Anglo-Saxon, Rus, Norse, and Icelandic derivations of proto-Indo-European faiths. Sometimes what we know of the nordic/germanic gods and runes are simple variants, sometimes they're 1:1 correspondents, sometimes they're quite divergent. Trying to peel all of that apart really can be lengthy, so I was going more for solidly known general knowledge.
For runes as "more commonly male magic" are you thinking of galdra as rune-speech or something else entirely? I'd be curious to know what you're referring to in the mythology, as I'd love to see something that specifically speaks of runic magic as primarily a male practice.
So far as I know, old nordic/germanic magic can (roughly) be broken down into:
Seidhr: a dark magic to spy on, spirit-curse, and generally damage one's enemies, usually thought of as an evil practice and mostly confined to women. Well, or ergi... as trucking with dark evil spirits wasn't considered "manly" in an open, honest sense of confronting one's enemies directly.
Spae-craft: shamanistic premonitory magic, primarily women, deeply associated with communing (and sometimes possession by) spirits of various origin. Often mistaken for seidhr in modern scholarship.
Galdra: song- and poetry-magic, thought by some to be tied to ancestral spirits -or- thought by others to be tied to rune-sounds and the breath. Not a lot is known, although I'd agree that both gods and giants, men and women, were seen to use galdra.
Runa/runes: use of ideographic symbology and mystery knowledge for a variety of purposes, from healing to harm. Runes could be carved on anything, but for mystical purposes were typically carved on bones or sticks (in later periods, wood, stone, and metal objects). Blood, spit, or other life fluids were used to sometimes amplify runes, though not always. Both men and women are seen to use runes, but I'd argue that it's heavily weighed toward women.
Herbal lore with mystical elements: knowledge and use of various herbs for healing, harm, or other purposes, both on a spiritual and physical level. Initially, primarily female practice until it was actively suppressed by the new Catholic faith (like all the shamanic practices) and taken over by men (specifically, monks of the new faith) and heavily modified.
Again, this is a huge simplification with a lot of cross-cultural assumptions and mashing together, but it's what we generally believe to be true.Another note, giants in the Eddas occasionally were known to use runes, though these were particularly learned members of their race, generally.
That's... true, but just as an aside... do you really think this was "true" or more of a "modern" interpretation by Snorri, knowing his history and intent?
To the first paragraph: I generally use the Eddas and Sagas.
As for gender roles in magic, the Eddas provide various suggestions that rune spells, like what Odin describes in the Havamal, were the type of magic that it was socially acceptable, and normal, for men to use. Off the top of my head, I can't think of many instances of female figures directly using the runes, unless you assume that all instances of divination use rune staves. It's not actually historically clear whether divination used runes at all, interestingly enough. Women were more commonly known to use other forms of magic, particularly Spae-craft, as you mentioned. Also, the majority of seers were female.
Giants/Jutons using runes: I'm not with my copies of the Eddas right now, but I don't think that Snorri is the only source of rune using giants, nor of certain giants working as allies of the Aesir and Vanir.
I may have to dig through my books and find this old book, by a guy who took the Prose Edda and compared it to other sources, leaving out much of what is not referenced anywhere else, and retold it, along with those other sources, in a more modern tone, with an eye for storytelling. It's quite brilliant.
Yeah I dont like the blank rune, seems kinda dumb to me, I mean how would one know the differece between the blank rune and just a space? Still there should be some kind of symbol for "Fate".
That's why the blank rune doesn't make any sense.
Technically, the Norse didn't believe in "fate" as we understand the modern term, but rather a belief in "wyrd," but as for a rune that represents unfolding mystery and chance in life the rune Perth fits that particular bill:
runesecrets.com/rune-meanings/perthro-ru...
Unlike the Greeks, the Norse didn't have "The Fates" as goddesses, but a rather different set of goddesses called "The Norns." It's tempting to think of them as a corollary to the Greek goddesses, but the Norns were much more. Even the Gods could not escape Wyrd (which the Norns oversee even for the Gods), although individual choice is paramount in the unfolding of wyrd.
Wyrd is sometimes loosely translated as fate, but this is a really imprecise understanding of wyrd. Wyrd is the sum of what is (history), what is unfolding (current events), and what is likely to happen (the future). Wyrd is in motion, as it is not just personal "fate" but depends on the outcome of everyone's choices in life. One can allow the future to unfold without making dramatic choices, but that too is a choice. History gives the framework for what could happen, and everyone's current choices are "likely" to follow a trajectory based on those histories, but the future is not set. Choices can dramatically impact the future. Chance also plays a part, as there is a certain randomness to life. What will happen is usually what is most likely to happen, but "fate" is not set and unchangeable. Wyrd, rather, is moving, constantly unfolding, and choice is central to it.
Nicely explained.
It can actually be used similarly to the dwarven concept that Cale is always pondering in the Erevis Cale trilogy.
anyway, i'm currently working on a rune system for a GURPS campaign(the gurps rune system uses Ralph Blum, of all people, so we're reworking it). Some things are slightly changed, or stretched a bit, so that they can more easily be used in a RPG magic system, but most of it is right out of my study of the runes on both the acedemic and religious levels. I may post the conceptual stuff here when I finish it.
Various runes can be used where another script might speak of fate, depending on the particulars. Jera, with it's connection to the progression of time, Perthro, as has been mentioned. An argument can be made that Ansuth can be used to represent Divinely ordained destiny, or more specifically the event of one's destiny being divinely ordained.
Like the gods, the runes are rarely one trick ponies.
EDIT: something that could be useful for expanding on a rune based magic system.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bind_rune