I've a question to subject you. Are there magic useres' Magic Languages use for their verbal component of spells and also written in their scrolls and spellbooks like these in FR?
http://www.dlnexus.com/lexicon/17451.aspx
http://www.raistland.com/the_language_of_magic.htm
Thanx for answers
I also seem to remember that some races may use their own special stuff, but sof far could only think of drow (Lolthite!) priestesses using "High Drow" amongst themselves. Not sure about this though.
*Just like Latin used in medicine, as opposed to the language itself (i.e. used by Caesar, Tacitus and Co.)
the universal language used by wizards was actually Draconic
Think the same, but I don't remember where I red these...
Hi to everyone,
I've a question to subject you. Are there magic useres' Magic Languages use for their verbal component of spells and also written in their scrolls and spellbooks like these in FR?
http://www.dlnexus.com/lexicon/17451.aspx
http://www.raistland.com/the_language_of_magic.htm
Thanx for answers
In our home game we used a variety of different languages. Draconic was the oldest and the most language in which to speak the verbal component of spells. Elven was also used (for spells which the elves themselves invented), most often for Enchantment type spells. Gnomish was also commonly used for Illusion magic, while a number were spoken in a variety of ancient human dialects including Netherese, Imaskari, Nar and Raumathari. So basically Draconic was the Common of magic languages (considering we held it true that Dragons were the first true magic users) followed closely by Elven (an archaic form of which was spoken by the Fae, the other early magic users).
As to those not using French, well, they were mostly barbarians whose opinions didn't matter at the time. ;)
Why not dwarven? Plenty of evidence that dethek can be used when casting clerical runic magic, so I don't see any reason why it couldn't be adapted to arcane...
-Eh, because Dwarves aren't really known for their Arcane prowess, and the Giants are. The Dwarves and Giants also have some historical ties, traditionally, so...I've always been under the impression (in general), that Dwarves learned their Runic stuff from Giants.
The question remains, which book says something definite (for the Realms, if possible) on the matter? It could well be that I read something about this in a novel
*As noted above, this is "Technical Draconic", just like Latin used in medicine. It will not enable to understand "everyday Draconic" by default.
The question remains, which book says something definite (for the Realms, if possible) on the matter? It could well be that I read something about this in a novel
no anyone that know about this in manuals or other reported?
- "The three remaining scripts, Draconic, Celestial and Infernal, are beautiful yet alien...However, Humans with ancient and strong cultural ties to Dragons (and their magic) or beings from far-off planes have occasionally adapted them to transcribe Human tongues in addition to the languages they originally served" (Pg. 85).
- Draconic is the alphabet used in Loross, Netherese, Halruaan, Lantanese (Pg. 85).
- Draconic is a bonus language available to Wizards (Pg. 85).
Never bought into that one myself... just didn't see the connection given dwarven tendency towards a relatively subterranean existance. Could be the case officially, been a long time since I looked over either Dwarvesdeep or Giantcraft, but not as far as my campaign is concerned.
-Heh, I'm the exact opposite. I don't know if that's official in the Forgotten Realms, but that's how it is in my own setting.
As to why that doesn't make sense, I'd say it more likely a blending of Imaskari, Calishite, Netherese, Elven, and perhaps Mulhorandi and others (Nar, Ruamathar, etc), with your location influencing which was more 'dominant' than anything else. While I could see pretty much everything in the Western Heartlands and North being fairly slanted towards Netherese traditions, I would think the Dales would tend more towards Elven practices and customs in magic, etcetera and so forth. So, I would guess that it would depend on where you learned magic as to what would be the most likely magical language for you, would be my preferred way of looking at it anyway.
but I think the words Orcus used is something else, but than was never cleared out
also wonder how truenaming fits into all this
also wonder how truenaming fits into all this
-It's not specifically related to this, but check out the Class Chronicles article that Eytan wrote about Truenamers in the Forgotten Realms.
In the current realms there were no highlevel truenamers. So complete knowledge or control over the words of creation and the dark speech must be found outside Torils Realmspace.
I would have liked the truenaming system more if it could actually be used as an add on to spells ala meta magic feats, spiking spells with extra force by using true name utterances or shaping magic to greater effect with true name mantras.
I would have liked the truenaming system more if it could actually be used as an add on to spells ala meta magic feats, spiking spells with extra force by using true name utterances or shaping magic to greater effect with true name mantras.
-As it is now, I don't like the True Name Magic system, either.
Still might be worth figuring out how to tweak the system provided by WotC to fit my liking...
I liked the reversible utterances and recitations from it, and to convert some of them to feats or spells might solve my problems.
Hello again, all. Ed was offline for the better part of a day (an electrical storm fried an aging iMac power supply, and he was too busy with other things to swap the hard drive out into ANOTHER aging iMac, so as to get all his Net ISP settings back), but he's surfaced now, just in time to answer Zanan's query:
Spells are written in an everchanging "pidgin" language derived from Auld Wyrm/Auld Wyrmish (sometimes called "Auld High Wyrmish" or "Old Draconic"), words augmented by runes/sigils that carry their own magical charges AND have a meaning in an incantation, akin to modern real-world picto-symbols for access, washrooms, this or that banned, et al (though they usually mean something like "that phrase [of the incantation, just spoken] is validated and empowered thus" or "empowered and comined with [the next phrase of the incantation") which is why "read magic" was a different spell than "comprehend languages."
An incantation is "read" by enunciating the words of the incantation, and visualizing (or touching) each rune/sigil AS the name of the rune/sigil is uttered, as they occur in the written spell (which releases their "trigger" magic to affect ("steer and shape") the building power of the natural forces of the world that is being raised and combined by the incantation into an eventual effect.
The language of the incantation (not counting these rune/sigil names) consists of verbs and articles mainly of elder draconic origin, plus a vocabulary of nouns (and a few verbs and articles) added by many workers-in-magic down the years. Some of these added words are elvish, some are human, and a very few (gems, mainly) are dwarven or from the gnome tongue. This language, like all languages, changes over time, as many new words are added, a few are forgotten, and a few fall out of favour. Many of the newer words are "nonsense" words coined by individual human mages, that get taken up and used by others; if someone used to wielding the Art ("arcane magic spellcaster") reads a spell scroll or written spell without actually casting it, the meanings of the words are conveyed faintly to them, unfolding in their brains (which is how someone can trigger not just explosive runes, but a harmful or beneficial glyph).
The point is that the spell CRAFTER (not caster, if they are different beings) must know/feel/be able to visualize what each word represents, be it a thing, a force, a transformation, or a desired result (for instance, the incantation phrase "aumma drood hethtarl [barrander] khehk'tal" literally means: ruby (the gem), melt it, to produce only a red vapor and heat, [name of rune, that means: applying the flesh-affecting ability this derived chemical possesses, to all of the energies of the building spell], unchanged in effects). So it's quite possible for a drow caster to use drow words in an incantation, or a dwarf to replace some words with dwarven runes (different from the "power runes"/sigils of the spell), or any spellcaster to use a family or personal nonsense word that THEY know the meaning of, when writing down spells.
So the answer is: there's no one "language of magic," but there's a jargon for incanting that's perhaps 40 percent nonsense words ("nonsense" to non-workers-in-magic, as in: invented, not part of any merely spoken language), 30 percent human, 12 percent elder draconic, 8 percent elven (various dialects, usually old word forms), and 10 percent drawn from all other tongues.
A speaker of any of these tongues who does not have the gift of handling the Art could "sort of" understand "their" words in an incantation, but only partially (for instance, an old drow word for "violent fall" of a stalactite [the equivalent of "crash down on whatever's below"] might be used in an incantation to mean "dash down" [that is, I want this my spell to violently and damagingly smash something down on what's below]; the meaning is similar but not identical, and could be misunderstood out of context).
In the "good old days," game designers actually sat down (often over drinks), and discussed all of this, so we'd be on the same page when writing, even though the early publishing codes prevented anything really specific being printed about "casting spells/working witchcraft." This has ALWAYS been "how it's worked in the Realms," with Ruathlek being an illusionist's "code" version of wizards' magical lingo, and I got TSR staff designers to agree to this back in 1986, but . . . personnel change, companies change, agreements get forgotten and new people never even know they exist, and so on . . .
Work for you? Post right back if you have more questions, and I'll be happy to talk this through.
So saith Ed. Who DOES think about all of this stuff, folks. Truly.
love to all,
THO
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10427&whichpage=83
The power words... those have shaked gametables all over the world. They are true name magic aswell, and more true to how truenaming should work.
Still might be worth figuring out how to tweak the system provided by WotC to fit my liking...
I liked the reversible utterances and recitations from it, and to convert some of them to feats or spells might solve my problems.
-Why not start a new thread about it?
-From my take on things, I don't like Truename Magic as a system of magic, as it was presented. I like the..."Tolkien"ish version, where, you say the True Name, the Word of Power, whatever, and something "extreme" happens.
Different spells require different levels of magical keys. One's unique, secret truename, guarded from foes and whispered to lovers, guarantees precision and can allow access to a being's soul, potentially against their will, as per the truename spell and Tome of Magic. An accurate usename or proper name works to trigger/direct spells like magic mouth or perhaps farspeak. Some spells are tightly crafted to later require a specific name or activation word. A shared "Joe Blow"-type alias, which is really an evasion of naming -- such as Jack-of-Blades or Harl Amendall for adventurers, Xoblob in Waterdeep -- won't work as an identifier except for the most trivial purposes. It's not really your name: you don't really see yourself as Harl Amendall and neither does anyone else.
Using the example of true resurrection, per its writeup, requires the priest to "unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method)". A common nickname or pseudonym wouldn't suffice on its own as it would be ambiguous.
Of course, names are valued for reasons other than magic. Dwarves have a whole complex protocol about how they identify themselves. Finder Wyvernspur was punished by removing his memory of his name, so he became "the Nameless Bard". And so on.
My preference as well... though as I recall, it was the Egyptians who came up with that notion or something, Tolkien only borrowed the idea... popularized perhaps, but... not a fan of his though.
-Was not aware of that. In the end, it doesn't matter much, but good to know.
-Honestly, I don't think that a formulaic system of True Name magic can ever satisfy my notions, at least. I am of the opinion that, it's just so mysterious and powerful that we don't know all of the possibilities that stem from using it. I could see, knowing an individual's True Name, as enhancing mundane magic (ie, casting Charm Person using the persons True Name results in a nearly unbeatable spell, or something like that), but not a system all of it's own.
Though I'd agree that its very sympathetic magic, but also more than that, since a name can be a lot more than a mere symbol, but a profound truth about the being or substance it represents, depending of course on how they are viewed. So far, the Revised Order of Hermes book from WW, again, has my favorite take on the principles behind True Names, as its an easilly digestible summary that doesn't require reading unweildy and dusty books long out of print that I certainly can't afford anytime soon. :D
it's like 3e epic level system, but for all spells, spells/powers depend on a lot of factors, culture, belief, organization membership, obscure occult knowledge etc.