I have been pondering the definition and nature of magic for some time and have come to a rather disconcerting bottleneck in thinking in regards to magic in the realms. This is because although they have a goddess of magic, the weave and have explained these two whether through canonical or fanonical sources rather well, they have left very little said of magic itself other than it can - for mortals - only accessed via the weave or it's dark twin and thus only via shar or mystra and that a mortal would if they could be burned from the inside out from the magical energies if they could access magic directly but luckily they can't.
Thus I was wondering if anyone knew of any sources detailing magic and it's nature in the realms and if there aren't any, if anyone of any creative, inventive, artistic or meticulous bent could share with me their insights ideas and suggestions, as I would prefer to keep to canon if it makes sense without reducing my enjoyment but feel free to post suggestions for even if there is a canonical definition for fun and because i like to expand ion concepts.
Thank-you.
Later, the Shadow Weave was fully divorced (retconned) from the Weave in canon - which recreated the situation we had in 1e/early 2e where Mystra wasn't in control of ALL magic.
The way I look at it is that 1e had it right (because now we are back to that), and Mystra's clergy have been working diligently for centuries to remove any references to other forms of casting from the Realms.
Now, immediately following the Spellplague, not ALL magic is completely washed away, and Mages start experimenting with what little they have, building upon it until we get the situation in 4e.
The reality is that there were always MANY sources of power that could be tapped, but Mystra only received divine power from ARCANE magic usage, so naturally she 'pushed' that, or rather, her clergy did.
Mystra being the "end all, be all" Goddes of Magic turns out to be a sham, because she was really only the Goddess of one power source (Arcane) the entire time. The whole thing was a big propaganda campaign by her church, nothing more.
At least, that's the way I'm spinning it in my 4e games. ;)
Edit: BTW, Arcane Magic is once again usable (through raw magic), but the casters don't have the weave to go through anymore, which has limited/changed just how much they can do with it (enter the 4e Wizard).
The biggest problem for magic atm is the 4e transition and the retconns it entails. No one really knows what the deal with magic is at this point with any certainty...
-Are we talking 4e? Yes, it certainly takes what we know and throws it out the window, though.
This means direct access to arcane energy that a god can't cut off as punishment, nor limit for balance. The trick is that wizards and other arcane casters have had to relearn HOW to work spells and while they have access to more raw power they have less ways to shape it (limited powers but more uses of those powers per day at least for the 'simple' stuff).
This can also help explain the breaking up of what would previously be all arcane magic into arcane, primal, shadow, and elemental power sources. The shakeups also help explain why even divine casters spells have changed and what the gods can impart to their followers.
This means direct access to arcane energy that a god can't cut off as punishment, nor limit for balance. The trick is that wizards and other arcane casters have had to relearn HOW to work spells and while they have access to more raw power they have less ways to shape it (limited powers but more uses of those powers per day at least for the 'simple' stuff).
EXACTLY! :D
Their minds can't handle holding dozens of intricate formulae required for the more complex Raw Magic, but what little they can manipulate at once is much more powerful, making it more readily available on a constant basis.
Mystra underestimated human tenacity.
Actually, I'm REAL good with electricity, and those model appears to be fine - if you think of Magic in terms of Voltage and Current, then the Human mind acts like a circuit breaker, and the flow of magic has a limited amount of current, but the Voltage is fine and stable.
Voltage doesn't kill you - current does. Ergo less magical 'current', the less likely the Wizards minds will fry do to Raw magic.
As to how magic works... damned if I know anymore. Still in Magic of Faerun/Volo's Guide to All Things Magical mode, and little to no knowledge of 4e's metaphysical explanations for things.
The law of physics covers Magic?
-Um...Yes. I should IM Dan right now, just to tell him that you said that.
In earlier stuff, other types of magic (like Hishna) - that Mystra didn't have say over - were developed by some designers. However, by the end of 2e, all of that was retconned away by firmly establishiung that Mystra had say over ALL magic. then in 3e all the Shadowcrap was pushed to the forefront. Now, I'm uncertain as to weather the Shadow Weave was first developed then, or mentioned in earlier works (I believe it was), but originally it depended upon Mystra's weave for its own survival (it could not stand on its own).
Later, the Shadow Weave was fully divorced (retconned) from the Weave in canon - which recreated the situation we had in 1e/early 2e where Mystra wasn't in control of ALL magic.
The way I look at it is that 1e had it right (because now we are back to that), and Mystra's clergy have been working diligently for centuries to remove any references to other forms of casting from the Realms.
Now, immediately following the Spellplague, not ALL magic is completely washed away, and Mages start experimenting with what little they have, building upon it until we get the situation in 4e.
The reality is that there were always MANY sources of power that could be tapped, but Mystra only received divine power from ARCANE magic usage, so naturally she 'pushed' that, or rather, her clergy did.
Mystra being the "end all, be all" Goddes of Magic turns out to be a sham, because she was really only the Goddess of one power source (Arcane) the entire time. The whole thing was a big propaganda campaign by her church, nothing more.
At least, that's the way I'm spinning it in my 4e games. ;)
Edit: BTW, Arcane Magic is once again usable (through raw magic), but the casters don't have the weave to go through anymore, which has limited/changed just how much they can do with it (enter the 4e Wizard).
I look at it like this; Mystra took all the sources of magic and blended them into the weave, Shar with her prediliction for darkness was able to pick out the shadow portions of the weave, then there was the murder of Mystra and the whole thing went south. Arcane casters found that what they used to think of as arcane magic was really comprised of many power sources. Other classes that had specialized in shadow, primal or even elemental magics found them easier to cast but lost access to powers from other sources.
Bel
I doubted that there was anything written on the metaphysical explanations and it seems that no-one here knows of any but I'm still interested in explanations you guys have come up with; I'm still kinda stuck.
From the vague (and probably mistaken) amounts I recall from that book, Spellfire derived from the ebbs and flows of life, kinda like the Force from Star Wars, or the idea of Quintessence from M:tA, and presumably, since we're fairly certain that Spellfire taps 'raw magic' on some level, then raw magic also has some origin in 'the living world', in some fashion. Details... well, I'll leave that to others to go into, my thoughts will probably be more M:tA/C:tD inspired than some might like to stick into Faerun. Not really wanting to type out a long winded explanation at the moment, of course, has nothing to do with it... :D
If we understood all the principles behind it, it would be a science. ;)
And Bel - I like your take as well.
-This is the entire basis of the Artificer, is it not? Someone who uses 'mundane' things to produce magical effects.
In a nutshell - you're not supposed to understand it - thats why it's MAGIC.
If we understood all the principles behind it, it would be a science. ;)
And Bel - I like your take as well.
MT, yours got me thinking.
Bel
Indeed... wizard (and most other arcane casters for that matter) as well with 'components'.
-Maybe my definition of Artificer is outdated. I'm thinking like the Gnome Artificer, from MoF- They use mundane things to cause magical effects. Like, in theory, the release charged ions into the air to replicate a Lightning spells, or things like that.
That's my view on it, but I'm not certain of this.
I'm with Markus Tay on the nature of magic. Magic isn't necessarily science. It manipulates and interracts with physics, but whether it's a part of physics or not, noone can know.
When you want to know how the laws of the universe work naturally, you turn to physics.
When you want to break those laws, you turn to magic.
Think of physics as a Gigaundo Weave that incorporates the entire multiverse (except for the Far Realms, naturally). Physics is the interface through which we interact with the universe, and is just a set of rules that draw upon Primal Energy (the same stuff as magic) to create everything else our perceptions identify. By accessing this Raw Energy directly, we are bypassing the interface and 're-writing' a small portion of the universe.
Kind of like what Neo does in the Matrix. ;)
-Maybe my definition of Artificer is outdated. I'm thinking like the Gnome Artificer, from MoF- They use mundane things to cause magical effects. Like, in theory, the release charged ions into the air to replicate a Lightning spells, or things like that.
I think somewhere in the last 15 years or so the definition split into two directions. I used to think as you - a magic user that uses bizarre, arcane machinery to produce magical effects. Now it seems to simply mean any Mage who 'builds stuff'.
So if I want to use the old definition, I now call it a Mechanoficer - or a 'Techsmith' if I'm running a Steampunk game (or even an Arcane Mechanik, taken from the Iron Kingdoms setting).
Actually, Magic is the exception to physics.
When you want to know how the laws of the universe work naturally, you turn to physics.
When you want to break those laws, you turn to magic.
-No, no, no...Magic is physics! Physics is the study of the laws of the universe. By understanding these laws, you can create "triggers" that cause things to happen. Using that example from before (and, mind you, I'm not Dan, so my wording and stuff could be wrong), by releasing charged ions into the ozone, you can manipulate nature such that lightning is produced. This is what magic is doing, in not a literal sense, but in a figurative sense. It is tampering with the laws of nature of cause a "trigger" that causes something to happen. Physicists are magicians, and magicians are physicists.
I think somewhere in the last 15 years or so the definition split into two directions.
-Oh, okay, I did not know that.
I used to think as you - a magic user that uses bizarre, arcane machinery to produce magical effects. Now it seems to simply mean any Mage who 'builds stuff'.
-Not necessarily 'arcane machinery', but whatever to mimic the effects of magic. Like, the magical vial that Gage had, from Stardeep. An Alchemilical solution that, when shaken, the solution activates, and glows like a Light spell. That would be very "Artificer-like", in my mind, going by how I always thought of them. They'd be the ones to create such things.
-No, no, no...Magic is physics! Physics is the study of the laws of the universe. By understanding these laws, you can create "triggers" that cause things to happen. Using that example from before (and, mind you, I'm not Dan, so my wording and stuff could be wrong), by releasing charged ions into the ozone, you can manipulate nature such that lightning is produced. This is what magic is doing, in not a literal sense, but in a figurative sense. It is tampering with the laws of nature of cause a "trigger" that causes something to happen. Physicists are magicians, and magicians are physicists.
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Yep, and that's exactly why GothicDan even took up physics at all, all the kiddies wanna be like Harry;)
Yep, and that's exactly why GothicDan even took up physics at all, all the kiddies wanna be like Harry;)
-Dan's a bit older than Harry Potter, but, yeah.
-Dan's a bit older than Harry Potter, but, yeah.
Yes, one day we're gonna see he floating above a city in a levitating full body metal suit blasting lasers out of his gauntlets and cackling maniacally.
Physicists scare me, that's why I'm probably going into economics or law;)
-Good thing he said he'd spare me, already.
Yeah, as a lab rat.
Physics can only extrapolate laws from the physical - by leaving out the metaphysics, you lose site of the fact the only thing you need to change is your perceptions, and then the universe changes with you.
But I'm going into the abstract and philosophical, now. :P
Dan should have studied Alchemy if he wanted to perform real magic. ;)
EXACTLY! :D
Their minds can't handle holding dozens of intricate formulae required for the more complex Raw Magic, but what little they can manipulate at once is much more powerful, making it more readily available on a constant basis.
Mystra underestimated human tenacity.
More powerfull? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, you really make me laugh. 4th edition spells are pathetic, a novice Mage the Awakening character with Forces 3 and Prime 2 has much more raw power than a 4th edition 20th lvl Wizard.
They control a lesser number of factors in 4e, but they can do them more often and longer.
Think of the 4e mages as specialists, now. Without Mystra's Weave, they have to just focus on a few good things and forget the rest.
More powerful as in he can pelt you with magic missiles all day long - far more then a 20th level mage can.
They control a lesser number of factors in 4e, but they can do them more often and longer.
Think of the 4e mages as specialists, now. Without Mystra's Weave, they have to just focus on a few good things and forget the rest.
And that novice Mage character can fly all day if he wants, become invisible, control fire, lightning, gravity, light, sound and any other kind of force you can imagine, be protected against Force and Prime magic and has no limit if he does his homework well. Not counting the other 8 Arcanas: Deathh, Matter, Fate, Time, Mind, Space, Spirit and Life that can be combined to make any kind of spells you wish.
Mage isn't also set up as a tactical combat game as much a D&D is.
A system, I might add, wherein Mages are supposed to be better then everyone else. ;)
More powerful as in he can pelt you with magic missiles all day long - far more then a 20th level mage can.
-All you need is that item/spell that blocks Magic Missiles.
Dan should have studied Alchemy if he wanted to perform real magic. ;)
Dan the occultist...frightning.
Dan the occultist...frightning.
He was a wiccan.
Curious - I've read that Mystra wasn't originally apart of the realms and the closest thing to a deity of magic was lurue. If this is accurate then did the weave exist in the realms prior to the inclusion of mystra?
-In the "proto-Forgotten Realms", Lurue was the closest thing there was to the all-encompassing deity of magic that Mystra is/was. That is apocryphal, however.
AFAIK, Ed still uses the 'caretaker' thing with Lurue - I'm not even sure if he ever added Mystra into his Realms.
Yeah, as a lab rat.
-Not particularly, no. He told me I'd be the only theist allowed on his asteroid. It's cause I'm not stupid about it.