-Discuss.
And WotC continues the slaughter of the Realms. They even named the Changing Lands as Plaguelands (full rip off from WoW, it's official now)
It's not a rip off from WoW, it's a rip off from Warcraft. The Plaguelands were around in Warcraft III. Yes people, Warcraft existed before WoW.....
Next thing you know Szass Tam will be called Lich Lord of the Plaguelands (rip off of Kel'Thuzad lol)
Jeff Kaplin must be stopped!
-Ehehehe, I changed the name of the thread, and my first post. :D
-And, I am currently eating chocolate chip cookies with milk. Mmm...
No one really used Maztica anyway right?
-No.
Plus it was a straight copy of South America anyways.
-Mostly.
So this is a good thing.
-Depends on you POV.
Maybe this continent will actually get detailed.
-Maztica? It already was.
That being said, I know there are people who liked it, and I'm not in favor of just obliterating places like that. Or the whole concept of "Abeir" as a seperate "lost world".
Or the whole concept of "Abeir" as a seperate "lost world".
- :: Cough ::
What make me most sad it's that the all the designer's goals to the Realms could be achieved by another ways, interesting ones and more appropriated to the setting... Even Mystra's death, the whole Tyr-Tymora-Helm thing and the pantheon reduction. If they make it stories worthy to tell... But this crap... I just can stand it.
By the way, I just hated what they did to Halruaa, Shaar and Chondath! I've been dming in the Realms for about 14 years and had good campaings situated around this places.
but yes, actually, I substituted Xvim for Helm in Maztica and had plenty of Churches vying to convert the Heathens. Oddly, I mourn Maztica a lot because of the AWFUL AWFUL adventures I ran there.
Seriously, every time I explicitly set up the Mazticans as the suffering natives, the players would kill the bad guys then start talking like Bruce Campbell to them in the most deliberately condescending manner.
"Listen, you gods damn primitive screwheads. This is our BOOM STICK!" *holds up Wand of Fireballs*
"Abandon your primitive life and embrace our superior Faerunian life! We won't do it against your will....despite the fact you live like Orcs....BUT WE ARE SUPERIOR....and Light Skinned types, except for the Dark Skinned Elf and the Half-Orc whose green.....Got that!"
-Edgar the Gnome
I knew I could never run Maztica again after that wonderful bit of mockery of the setting's conceits.
No one insults Bruce Campbell on MY watch!
Yes, how DARE a gnome quote him.
-...Wait, nevermind. It's gone.
Maztica isn't gone. It's just not on Toril anymore.
But as long somes remains, that the new places are interesting too, well... I will live with it.
C'est la vie.
Maztica isn't gone. It's just not on Toril anymore.
So it's gone?
Chacun à son goût!
En effet.
;) :P
It's just not on Toril anymore.
-Which means it's gone.
So I'm creating my escape from this mess, by treating it like a possible future, and creating an adventure to travel back and change things, like Arcane Age sort of.
-Alediran created this site for exactly that purpose.
"Have fun with those bogus treaties!"
*ACHOO* *ACHOO* ACHOO* "Sorry, I don't mean to spread my Faerun diseases to you."
"So, who do I have to kill for all your gold?"
I guess there is no soul happy with any of the changes. So I'm creating my escape from this mess, by treating it like a possible future, and creating an adventure to travel back and change things, like Arcane Age sort of.
No every FR fans is against the changes, you know.
Look like few, like me, cared for Maztica to stay by example.
No every FR fans is against the changes, you know.
Look like few, like me, cared for Maztica to stay by example.
Sorry, I was talking about the majority. I know that some or a few, myself included, like or rather see some potential in a few of the changes, but again, the majority is against it. And I never used Maztica but I rather want it to be there than completely gone, it had lore and a different flavor for some to enjoy, so if a new place is needed, then why not create a whole new continent rather than an exchange?...
This website or Enworld or Candlekeep, etc... don't represent a fair, balanced and whole view.
(I was thinking and refering to the whole of the changes)
As for Maztica... my conclusion was - I will live with it, and I hope the new stuff is at least egal. Considering honestly it was pretty much not the highest creative effort...
Let's see... with Abeir... that makes everything I've predicted about 4e since last August about 95% on the money. :P
Gawd... I HATE being right....
I even stated that it would probably be replaced with something from 'another world'.
Indeed, I actually really liked the Shining South.
-So did I, so did I.
:raincloud :surrender 
:headexplo :hoppingma 18DELTA
Maztica isn't gone. It's just not on Toril anymore.
-Wow I guess I should read the whole page before I post.
-Your post says alot to me BRJ.
-WOW
-Now we know why Amn is sweatin the Moonshaes.
18DELTA
Yeah... the Shining South was probably the only add-on to Ed's Realms that worked.
-Along with Mulhorand as we know it, Calimshan as we know it, Kara-Tur, Zakhara, the Great Wheel cosmology, the Moonshaes, etc...
18DELTA
But yeah, I love that area, and there's no way I would excise it from my Realms.
I suppose we'd have to find the exact release date of each, to see if 2e SS preceeded 2e FRCS.
I think the Shining South may have been mentioned in 1e, and been part of Ed's Realms, but I don't think it was fleshed-out until later.
Perhaps what we will see is what Ed had in mind for that area originally...
If Maztica was actually more interesting, then I might miss it a little. Unfortunatly it was just a historical reproduction with bad magic and a high level of vilification.
Like I said, Maztica becomes a lot more fun when you declare that the Natives are completely subject to the same rules people give Orcs.
*cracks whip*
FILTHY FILTHY FILTHY NON-MYSTRA WORSHIPERS!
Like I said, Maztica becomes a lot more fun when you declare that the Natives are completely subject to the same rules people give Orcs.
*cracks whip*
FILTHY FILTHY FILTHY NON-MYSTRA WORSHIPERS!
Being a pro-orc rights individual, I find that offense, yes I do sir!:P
Pluma and hishnra are too pathetic to be noticed by Mystra and Shar anyway.
If Maztica was actually more interesting, then I might miss it a little. Unfortunatly it was just a historical reproduction with bad magic and a high level of vilification.
-Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. But, as I said earlier, you can't just "make something go boom", and make it go away, and expect others (ie, me) to take things seriously. And, the "going boom" has been happening a whole lot lately.
Pluma and hishnra are too pathetic to be noticed by Mystra and Shar anyway.
-It's a shame Pluma and Hishna weren't elaborated on, because I found them a little interesting.
I'm 23 years old and I play videogames since I was 8. I owned the first Super Mario and the first Sonic.
lol i'm not prepared to give my age away just yet
lol i'm not prepared to give my age away just yet
-Well, you are relativley old, because you started playing D&D with the "basic/red box set".
-Well, you are relativley old, because you started playing D&D with the "basic/red box set".
lol glad to see someone's paying attention. 50 house points or advance to the next level
somewhere in a loft/attic in gloucestershire (MH was our GM) sits mint condition Master and Immortal rules
lol glad to see someone's paying attention. 50 house points or advance to the next level
-I'll just pass 'Go' and collect $200.
-It's a shame Pluma and Hishna weren't elaborated on, because I found them a little interesting.
So did I, and I found it greatly disappointing when I read the Maztica Campaign setting and found the native magic so vastly underpowered.
Hopefully what replaces it is interesting.
So did I, and I found it greatly disappointing when I read the Maztica Campaign setting and found the native magic so vastly underpowered.
-Well, two things:
1) 'Normal' magic has had three (going on four) editions and countless supplements to elaborate on it, add new spells, and so on. Maztica only had...three(?) sourcebooks/adventures, and three novels.
2) There is a limited amount you can do with 'evil magic' (Hishna) and 'good magic' (Pluma), especially when they are tied so specifically to specific items (Fangs and Feathers) and such.
-Well, two things:
1) 'Normal' magic has had three (going on four) editions and countless supplements to elaborate on it, add new spells, and so on. Maztica only had...three(?) sourcebooks/adventures, and three novels.
2) There is a limited amount you can do with 'evil magic' (Hishna) and 'good magic' (Pluma), especially when they are tied so specifically to specific items (Fangs and Feathers) and such.
1. It was never popular, so they decided not to expand.
2.They could have at least made different kinds of fangs and feathers and improved the magical effects.
2.They could have at least made different kinds of fangs and feathers and improved the magical effects.
-Which could have happened if this was not the case:
1. It was never popular, so they decided not to expand.
-Point I was trying to make was, Hishna/Pluma could possibly be a cool magic system, but it was never given the attention or the change. There is also a section on updateing Hishna/Pluma to 3e in DRAGON magazine. Issue 311 (I am mostly sure), the 'Old Campaign' issue.
Its a perfect Fit! :PIt really does fit perfectly - Hepmonland (the LARGE island at the bottom) was GH's version of Maztica, but done correctly. :P
The continent also has a tons of islands just to the east of it, which is exactly how Ed originally envisioned HIS Anchorome.
And best of all, its got Iuz and Vecna!
Yup. :D
-With you, I knew it.
And best of all, its got Iuz and Vecna!
-Vecna is one of the few concepts I like from Greyhawk (of the few I know), and have used in my own campaign setting. Though my PCs don't know this yet, nor will they anytime soon, as they are only Levels 6-8, their current BBEG is going to find and 'use' the Eye of Vecna. Tell me, is there such a thing as the 'Hand of Vecna'? Said BBEG just had his arm lopped off by one of the PCs, and I was going to simply replace it with a Demonic Graft, but, if I could include Vecna here...
There are both Hand and Eye of Vecna.
-That works very, very good. What book are all of the 'parts' of Vecna listed?
I like the witch Iggwilv.
-That works very, very good. What book are all of the 'parts' of Vecna listed?
3.5e Dungeon Master Guide pag. 281
3.5e Dungeon Master Guide pag. 281
-That's all the parts? I thought there were more...
He was a lich so maybe he would survives but this happened before his ascension so it would've done his quest very difficult while being maimed.
I like the witch Iggwilv.
-Tasha.;) She gets it on with a Demon Lord!!!
:OMG! 
18DELTA:D
Indeed, and she's a super powerful wizard, herself (I think lvl 30?).
-True.:D Did you see her stats in the last Dungeon Mag adventure path?:D The Savage Tide.
18DELTA:D
-True.:D Did you see her stats in the last Dungeon Mag adventure path?:D The Savage Tide.
18DELTA:D
No, I'll have to check it out. Thanks for letting me know.
No, I'll have to check it out. Thanks for letting me know.
-No problem my lady, and your welcome.:D
-Its issue#149. It has Iggwilv/Tasha on the cover in all her HOTTNESS!!!
-Yeah that is one BAD @SS Lady!!!;)
18DELTA
I think she could do without the green lipstick, but oh well.No every FR fans is against the changes, you know.
Look like few, like me, cared for Maztica to stay by example.
I'm one of those that has yet to see a change they're making to the Realms that I like. And yes, I LIKED Maztica.
To those who say it was too like the real world for the Realms I say the whole Realms was like that. Maztica was no different than Cormyr, Kara Tur, Zakhara, or the Moonshaes in that regard. I enjoyed having people go to Maztica form other parts of the Realms. And think like the rest fo the Realms, it is being treated poorly by the Dev team
And yes, I LIKED Maztica.
-Now you're really in the minority. :P
To those who say it was too like the real world for the Realms I say the whole Realms was like that. Maztica was no different than Cormyr, Kara Tur, Zakhara, or the Moonshaes in that regard.
-Hardly. Even Kara-Tur, which is the next biggest carbon copy, has a lot more lore and history independent of actual Southern Asian history.
And think like the rest fo the Realms, it is being treated poorly by the Dev team
-This, I can agree with. I dislikes Maztica to the umteenth degree, and there's probably only two things I liked about the entire setting- Pluma and Hishna Magic, which were interesting and different, especially Pluma. However, "disappearing" it, while an answer, as we've seen, isn't the best answer.
I guess that he would be dead then or were you expecting fingers and ears?:D
He was a lich so maybe he would survives but this happened before his ascension so it would've done his quest very difficult while being maimed.
-DRAGON issue 359 has stats for the Left Ear of Vecna. So...:P
-DRAGON issue 359 has stats for the Left Ear of Vecna. So...:P
Really?
LOL, maybe I'm not that familiar with the story or that is a new addition but anyway, sounds good, but I hope there isn't any more parts otherwise would be weird I guess.
Really?
LOL, maybe I'm not that familiar with the story or that is a new addition but anyway, sounds good, but I hope there isn't any more parts otherwise would be weird I guess.
-Hmm...The
of Vecna. Mature campaigns only. 
-Hmm...The
exactly.
Hhmm, a proxy of Vecna formed from the many parts...Damn.... that's gotta hurt....
18DELTA:P
**Character botches an UMD roll** "Aw, %&ck, I shouldn't have bought this discount wand at-- 'Made in Thay'?!"
My wish was to see Maztica more adapted / connected to what Faerûn was, I'm trying (still) to gather as much information as possible about it, the Aztecs and the Mayans had a bunch of cool deranged gods. And in our campaign, every now and then we already do jokes related to the real world and Faerûn.
-That is what MT's Maztica Re-Dux thread would have been about, had Maztica not been, you know, 'disappeared'. ;)
-The Kara-Tur Re-Dux thread has many many an inroad in smoothing the lore presented in all of the various Oriental Adventures products with Faerûnian lore. If you are interested, I suggest you check it out.
One person was even posting her D&D versions of several RW central-american monsters, which were quite good.
It could have been fixed, just like K-T, but it would have required more work. If they replace it with something really good, then I won't mind, but if it's just some more derivitive cr@p pasted in from another setting - ala the Draconians - then I'll go back to fixing Maztica they way it SHOULD HAVE been done.
-Now you're really in the minority. :P
-Hardly. Even Kara-Tur, which is the next biggest carbon copy, has a lot more lore and history independent of actual Southern Asian history.
-This, I can agree with. I dislikes Maztica to the umteenth degree, and there's probably only two things I liked about the entire setting- Pluma and Hishna Magic, which were interesting and different, especially Pluma. However, "disappearing" it, while an answer, as we've seen, isn't the best answer.
Guess I am in the minority regarding Maztica.
I did enjoy the novels and found the aspects that they had changed form Aztec/Mayan/Inca civilization, as well as the ways of incorporating things like Halflings and Drow quite interesting. May not be QUITE as blatant changes from that of Kara Tur, but still present. And, if Cormyr can have King Azoun and Vangerdahast, who are King Arthur and Merlin, then why not an analogous area for South/Central America with its own Montezuma and Conquistadores?
As for Kara Tur being more developed, it HAS been around longer. Kara Tur was in the original AD&D Oriental Adventures and THEN was incorporated into the Realms. And, face it, more people are fans of Oriental stuff than Aztec
As for this new continent there, well, I'll probably borrow what I like from it and either put it North of Maztica, or make it its own continent somewhere else, perhaps accessible only through magical means.
Maztican as slaves/fighting for freedom against the interdimentional atroicities, using their ancient mysticism, a desesperate fight...
could be nice.
As long as things survive of it, and well-adapted/melded, I will like it.
But the campaign setting book to me wasn't that good tho'.
Neway, Maztica is cool, just becoz it's power is weaker compared to the other continents doesn't mean it aint cool. It's presence kinda makes Toril a bigger and more mysterious planet.
I suppose, that made him ahead of his time. ;)
:P
As bad a copy as Kara-Tur was, it had lots of potential and many good ideas were developed later in modules and The Horde setting. It started out a straight-copy of RW regions, but grew into something more, and had a nice mystical element that never got the attention it deserved.
Maztica had potential as well - just look at GH's Hepmonland - but the later modules and novels were just as derivitive as the setting (the Lost City of Gold?), and only served to further drive the nails into Maztica's coffin.
I had started to develop a new campaign for the Maztica region in my last CK article, but obviously that island chain I created will be gone in 4e.
It was a cross between Polynesian culture, Pirates of the Caribbean, and a dash of Nyambe for the north coast of Katashaka (for that 'Gold/Barbary Coast' feel). Ah, well... it was a very short-lived dream.
As bad a copy as Kara-Tur was, it had lots of potential and many good ideas were developed later in modules and The Horde setting. It started out a straight-copy of RW regions, but grew into something more, and had a nice mystical element that never got the attention it deserved.
Maztica had potential as well - just look at GH's Hepmonland - but the later modules and novels were just as derivitive as the setting (the Lost City of Gold?), and only served to further drive the nails into Maztica's coffin.
-I agree. Pluma and Hishna Magic were interesting, to say the least. The deities of Maztica, I liked. Some of the locales were pretty interesting, too. But, uh...Oh well...
I did enjoy the novels and found the aspects that they had changed form Aztec/Mayan/Inca civilization, as well as the ways of incorporating things like Halflings and Drow quite interesting. May not be QUITE as blatant changes from that of Kara Tur, but still present. And, if Cormyr can have King Azoun and Vangerdahast, who are King Arthur and Merlin, then why not an analogous area for South/Central America with its own Montezuma and Conquistadores?
I never ever thought of Azoun as Arthur and Vangey as Merlin. Those characters really don't that much in common at all, aside from the obvious "benevolent ruler and his wizard" trope.
Douglas Niles used the Encyclopedia Britanica's Mesoamerican entry to write his material - NOTHING creative AT all there...
I suppose, that made him ahead of his time. ;)
Heh, at least he didn't spin a trilogy out of Ayn Rand's Fountainhead...
As for Douglas Niles, I don't like how he always made Helm the bad guy (at least, that's how it comes off to me). And the Church of Helm is not the Catholic Church circa 1500 AD.
As for Douglas Niles, I don't like how he always made Helm the bad guy (at least, that's how it comes off to me). And the Church of Helm is not the Catholic Church circa 1500 AD.
-No, it wasn't cool, but it was interesting to see the 'evil side' of his clergy. The "we're protecting them from themselves" schtick.
-No, it wasn't cool, but it was interesting to see the 'evil side' of his clergy. The "we're protecting them from themselves" schtick.
Ah, I see. I just wonder, sometimes, if Douglas Niles personally disliked Helm or something, because he and his followers tend to be bad guys in his novels.
Ah, I see. I just wonder, sometimes, if Douglas Niles personally disliked Helm or something, because he and his followers tend to be bad guys in his novels.
-What other novels did he feature Helmites in? And, not all Helmites in the novels were evil. The main character of the Maztica trilogy, whatever his name was, wasn't evil.
-What other novels did he feature Helmites in? And, not all Helmites in the novels were evil. The main character of the Maztica trilogy, whatever his name was, wasn't evil.
Well, there is a priest of Helm present in the second Moonshae Trilogy, who does somewhat help Talos' cause. However, he does it out of arrogance and the opinion that the Gods of the Realms are the only gods their are. Hmmm, sounds like 4e Realms
Well, there is a priest of Helm present in the second Moonshae Trilogy, who does somewhat help Talos' cause. However, he does it out of arrogance and the opinion that the Gods of the Realms are the only gods their are. Hmmm, sounds like 4e Realms
-To a person living on Faerûn, having never left the Plane/Crystal Sphere, the deities of the Forgotten Realms* are the only deities there are.
*I am including Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara in the definition of 'Forgotten Realms, as they exist on Abeir-Toril.
-To a person living on Faerûn, having never left the Plane/Crystal Sphere, the deities of the Forgotten Realms* are the only deities there are.
*I am including Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara in the definition of 'Forgotten Realms, as they exist on Abeir-Toril.
What i meant by Gods of the Realms was Helm, Mystra, Malar, etc. The aforementioned Priest of Helm does not consider the Earthmother of the Moonshaes to be a goddess at all, or at best, an aspect of one of the Realms Deities. He seeks to bring 'enlightenment' to the 'barbaric' Fffolk.
The people of Faerûn do believe their gods are the only true ones, in just about everything I've read - at least the commoners and most priesthoods. Sages and Wizards know better (from knowledge of the planes), but for the most part, Faerûnians look down at the 'heathen gods' outside of the Heartlands.
I think the best religous representation of the Realms I've read to date was the one in the Empires trilogy. Azoun and others made prayers to several different gods during the course of the crusade, depending on the situation.. even Umberlee!
Thats the way a Pantheon should work... even though most Faerûnians have a 'patron', they still say prayers to the others when appropriate.
That was a geat series, BTW, I just re-read it. At the end, Azoun had plans of turning Cormyr into an Empire, and was working with the Dales AND Sembia to incorporate both those regions - Too bad that never saw fruition.
Anyhow, the 'new Maztica' is one of the few things I'm looking forward to in 4e FR... I just hope the don't f__k it up.
If they keep some of the meso-American feel, but change it up a bit, I think it could be great. There were some fantastic Artwork done in Map Folio Two that really could have gone along way in 'fixing' Maztica and capturing tha special 'lost world' feel. They need to get that artist (don't have his name hady) to do some of the scenery for the new continent we're getting.
What i meant by Gods of the Realms was Helm, Mystra, Malar, etc. The aforementioned Priest of Helm does not consider the Earthmother of the Moonshaes to be a goddess at all, or at best, an aspect of one of the Realms Deities. He seeks to bring 'enlightenment' to the 'barbaric' Fffolk.
-The Moonshaes, Kara-Tur, Calimshan, and so on, are all part of the Forgotten Realms. Be more specific next time.
-What other novels did he feature Helmites in? And, not all Helmites in the novels were evil. The main character of the Maztica trilogy, whatever his name was, wasn't evil.
Well, that's nice.
The Druidhome trilogy featured Helm making a deal with Talos, and featured and evil priest of Helm.
I suppose he was Ao's 'Teacher's Pet", and for that reason, as per his 2e write-up, most of the other gods disliked him after the ToT (even the 'good' ones).
He always held himself above the rest, wrongfully so, and I personally couldn't stand him... him with his 'holier then though' attidude... and make-out parties...
The Druidhome trilogy featured Helm making a deal with Talos, and featured and evil priest of Helm.
-That would do it. I've never so much as physically held any of those books. Helm making a deal with Talos seems silly to me. In so much as it's not an alliance, where, basically Helm says, "Listen, if I do this for you, don't destroy X, alright?" Or, is it like that?
-That would do it. I've never so much as physically held any of those books. Helm making a deal with Talos seems silly to me. In so much as it's not an alliance, where, basically Helm says, "Listen, if I do this for you, don't destroy X, alright?" Or, is it like that?
From what I understand, it was basically an alliance of convenience because they had mutual goals (to spread their religions--and essentially, the religions of the Faerunian gods in general, to the Moonshaes). But like yourself, I still have trouble "buying it".
From what I understand, it was basically an alliance of convenience because they had mutual goals (to spread their religions--and essentially, the religions of the Faerunian gods in general, to the Moonshaes). But like yourself, I still have trouble "buying it".
-Alright, in that cases, it was a bit silly. I could envision alliances between the two powers, though, so that much isn't ouheard of.
There was some really good info in there, and now I can't find it anywhere?
Its like it just 'disappeared' or something (I've used just about every resource to find it).
Did anyone bookmark it?
Edit: Nevermind, found it... was looking in the wrong place. :embarrass
It didn't help that two threads had the EXACT same name...