In my 4E Realms all of my deities have become more mysterious and distant, though still clearly real, and the focus has been taken off the gods and onto their churches. I believe my changes to Kelemvor makes him a great deity for adventuring PC Clerics to play.
Kelemvor's faith is wide spread in my Realms, and although the core tenets are more-or-less the same the specifics of the faith sometimes differ from region to region.
Here is what is generally agreed upon-
Kelemvor absorbed the essence of Hoar. In some areas of the east, the reverse of this rumor is true: they claim that Hoar / Assuran absorbed the essence of Kelemvor. Regardless of who is correct, the same general outline of the faith remains the same.
Kelemvor
The Doombringer, Lord of Three Thunders, Judge of the Damned, Lord of the Dead
Greater Deity
Symbol: An upright, bone-colored skeletal arm holding the golden scales of justice balanced evenly in its fist against a steel-gray field
Portfolios: Death, the Dead, Poetic Justice and Vengeance
Manifestations: When Kelemvor wishes his presence known, it typically manifests in the form of three deep rolls of thunder. This often happens when calls for vengeance are made by an individual, allowing all nearby to know that Kelemvor has heard their call. Another manifestation, though less common, is a steady mournful whistle of wind. This often happens when death is quickly approaching; some near death individuals often speak of seeing hooded figures, dressed in tattered gray robes that blow in the wind who beckon them to follow. Finally, the most rare of manifestations, Kelemvor is said to appear as a ghostly hand to point at a guilty individual deserving of punishment (typically death).
Dogma: Death is the great equalizer. All must stand before Kelemvor in the end, be they slave or free, high born or low born; but let the common folk know that Kelemvor's judgment is fair, for in his eyes a slave and a king are as one. Travel throughout the land, spreading his word and dispensing vengeance. Let all know that vengeance must be sought for all injustices, and all punishments should fit their crime. Let your judgments be sharpened with irony, for a fitting recompense should always accrue for one's actions, both in life and in death. Respect the dead, and let their deeds be known so that those who survive them may learn from those who came before. Protect the sanctity of the final rest; seek out all undead and destroy them - they are abominations upon the world. Let all know that the Lord of Three Thunders is always watching and waiting for them.
The Church
There are many churches and cathedrals to Kelemvor throughout Faerûn. Each is run independently of the others, though in most cases a member of one church can find refuge in another. The exact dogma differs from church to church, though the above dogma would generally be accepted by them all.
Some churches believe that Kelemvor has taken Beshaba as his consort, though others disagree. Those that believe this often have small shrines to the Lady Doom in their temples. In such cases, it is not uncommon for the Doombringers to be accompanied by her servants - who in turn bring misfortune to those that oppose her lord.
A handful of churches in the south actually believe that Talona is the goddess of death and that she is the consort of Kelemvor. Meanwhile, in Cormyr it is widely believed and accepted that Kelemvor is a servant of Amaunator, bringing fitting punishment to those who stand against the Sunlord's laws.
Such beliefs are at times seen as heretical, depending on the region, and it is not uncommon to find members of the faith from various factions deny assistance to those they consider heretical. At other times, they seek to outright undermine each other.
All agree that Jergal is in the service to Kelemvor, and virtually every shrine also has some part of it devoted to the Lord of the End of Everything. Most communities who have a cathedral dedicated to Kelemvor, even if they do not have a priest of Kelemvor, have a member of the faith of Jergal on hand. The Jergalites are typically responsible for running the temples, shrines and cathedrals. They oversee all funeral rites, ensure the safe and secure burial of the dead, and keep long and exhaustive lists of the fallen which in most cases trace back generations.
The clergy of Kelemvor are generally known as Doombringers, while the head of a temple or church is typically known as a Doomlord or Doomlady depending on gender. The Doombringers are responsible for spreading the faith, though they are more often than not feared. When a Doombringer shows up in a town or village, respect is shown for it is widely believed to anger a priest of Kelemvor brings a harsh punishment in the afterlife.
Despite the fear surrounding them, there are many who seek out the services of the Doombringers. There is a never ending number of people seeking vengeance for this slight or that, and in many cases, especially in certain rural areas, there is no one around to provide formal justice. In such cases the Doombringers act as judge, jury and executioner.
Most nobles dislike the Doombringers for they show little respect for the titles they hold or their positions, and act as if they are a law unto themselves. Though even the most wealthy are fearful of them, knowing that Kelemvor is always watching, and that to seek retribution against one of his priests is likely to bring retribution upon them in kind.
A common prayer heard in times of anger after a perceived slight: "In Kelemvor's name, I -WILL- have my vengeance!"
There are times, though they are rare, that after such a phrase is called out Kelemvor's presence manifests in the form of three deep rolls of thunder. This allows all nearby know that Kelemvor has heard the prayer. Due to the fear surrounding the faith, it would not be uncommon in such instances, such as three bandits robbing a merchant on the road, for the bandits to give everything they have of value to the merchant and swear an oath in Kelemvor's name to never commit an act of banditry again. All of this would be to escape Kelemvor's inevitable harsh but just punishment.
In some instances, when such a prayer is called out, a nearby Doombringer receives a vision of the events that unfolded. Such a Doombringer would then be tasked with bringing about fitting justice.
However, it should be made clear: Kelemvor is a fair and just deity. He does not take well to those who seek false vengeance, attempt to frame others who are innocent, nor does he take kind to those who commit worse deeds and seek vengeance for lesser crimes. Thus, calling upon him comes at a price, as it risks bringing about his judgment upon you as well.
As a result of this most people have a negative reaction when his name is called out in such a manner, believing that simply hearing his name brings his eye upon them to be judged. For in truth, none are truly innocent of wrongdoing, and most hope to forget this fact just as they like to forget their mortality.
Many of Kelemvor's greatest servants are former criminals who have pledged themselves to the faith in order to escape some harsh punishment in the afterlife.
The Afterlife
Although the afterlife is a mysterious thing, with this faith or that describing what it is like, Kelemvor's faithful preach the following.
When an individual dies, their soul journeys to Kelemvor's realm for judgment. They are judged based upon the actions and deeds performed in life, and are punished or rewarded accordingly. In some cases, typically when an exceptional individual dies, another deity requests the spirit. In those cases Kelemvor releases the spirit AFTER the spirit has undergone whatever judgment is deemed appropriate.
Unlike mortals, spirits are immortal like the gods, and thus such judgments can last for hundreds of years.
The judgments passed down upon mortals fit their actions. For example, if someone dies and during his life he knowingly aids a worshiper of a devil, that individual may be sent to spend the next one thousand years in the Nine Hells. If an individual is guilty of drowning a child, that individual may be chained up under water, and forced to for perhaps hundreds of years, experience endless and perpetual drowning. If an individual was an executioner in life, and took a great deal of pleasure in cutting off people's heads, that individual may find themselves headless in the afterlife, and cursed accordingly.
In most cases the spirits of the dead are left to Kelemvor, and only the most exceptional (such as devoted priests or particularly worthy lay people) are requested by the other gods.
However, Kelemvor is not a cruel deity. An individual who spends their lives caring for others can expect similarly, so his priests claim, to be taken care of equally in the afterlife. Good comes to those who do good, they say, while evil comes to those who do evil.
The actions of mortals are viewed upon a scale. Every good deed is placed on one end, and every evil deed on another. Each deed is weighed accordingly, and based upon the deeds, the individual is awarded or punished accordingly.
Priestly Vestments: The clergy of Kelemvor wear their ceremonial garb whenever possible except when they wish to conceal their identity while stalking a perpetrator of some injustice. When they are officially on the hunt to bring vengeance to an individual, they wear surreal masks that cover their faces. When the Doombringers are seen wearing their masks, people tend to do everything they can to avoid their attention. In some cases, common folk have been known to hide in their homes and refuse to come out, fearing that the Doombringer may be coming for them.
i admit i like kelemvor the way he is, judging the dead, soothing the living and still be martial in hunting the undead
I'm not sure why you feel that way. :P
If you view vengeance as a form of justice, then I think it makes sense. I just took the logical step: If Kelemvor is the Judge of the Dead, then how does he judge them, and what does he do with those he finds unworthy?
It was also a play off of how death worked in 2E I believe, where when you died you were sent to the plane most closely corresponding with your alignment. (If I am not mistaken.)
Thus, instead of being sent to the plane most closely corresponding to your alignment, you are being punished (or rewarded) based upon your actions, which would be reflected by your alignment.
As a deity in and of itself, I like the fact that it opens up a whole lot for a DM to throw at the players, and also a decent enough deity that a player can craft an interesting character around.
You still have the undead hating aspect of Kelemvor, and in that way he has remained the same, the main difference is that he's been given an actual personality. :P
Who makes the law when it comes to Judging the Dead? Kelemvor. In the mortal world, being a Doombringer is actually a good way to find yourself at odds with the law, especially if the law is the one screwing people over. :P
Kelemvor's judgments aren't really based off any law per-say, they are based off each individual's case, which is in turn based off their actions. This is different from how Tyr would handle the law, which would be very legal, and thus not necessarily "just." The way Kelemvor handles things - he takes up each case individually.
It's harsh, but it is fair: For example, let us say that you are a pyromaniac. You burned down a house which had two children sleeping inside. You ended up burning them alive.
Now, when the Doombringer finds you, your punishment is obvious: They are going to execute you by fire. You are going to be burned at the stake, most likely publicly.
However, when you die - and you will whether or not a Doombringer finds you - Kelemvor is going to review that action. Now, in death you're an immortal spirit which is going to live forever. ...and forever is a long time. ;)
Thus, Kelemvor is likely to sentence you to continuous burning. You will not sleep, nor will you die. But the pain would be real. And you would burn for... say... a light sentence because he happens to feel merciful in this case (you didn't know the children were in the home) - he is going to have you burn for 200 years, a hundred years for each child.
After that you'd likely face punishment for any other crimes you've committed, until you've been completely absolved.
Does that make sense? :P
...or am I misunderstanding you?
BTW, Meldread, I'd be careful if I were you. Absorbing Hoar into Kelemvor might bring the vengeful wrath of the board's resident Hoarite paladin crashing down upon you.:D
BTW, Meldread, I'd be careful if I were you. Absorbing Hoar into Kelemvor might bring the vengeful wrath of the board's resident Hoarite paladin crashing down upon you.:D
:P
I left the possibility open that it could have happened the other way around. In fact, the only reason I even use Kelemvor's name is because I like it better than Hoar, who I usually just call Assuran. It's hard to take a vengeful deity seriously when his name is pronounced exactly like wh*re. :P
:P
I left the possibility open that it could have happened the other way around. In fact, the only reason I even use Kelemvor's name is because I like it better than Hoar, who I usually just call Assuran. It's hard to take a vengeful deity seriously when his name is pronounced exactly like wh*re. :P
Which is why I always use this phrase: "Most people think payback's a b___h. But really, it's just a dirty Hoar."
Who said anything about following the law? :P
Who makes the law when it comes to Judging the Dead? Kelemvor. In the mortal world, being a Doombringer is actually a good way to find yourself at odds with the law, especially if the law is the one screwing people over. :P
Kelemvor's judgments aren't really based off any law per-say, they are based off each individual's case, which is in turn based off their actions. This is different from how Tyr would handle the law, which would be very legal, and thus not necessarily "just." The way Kelemvor handles things - he takes up each case individually.
It's harsh, but it is fair: For example, let us say that you are a pyromaniac. You burned down a house which had two children sleeping inside. You ended up burning them alive.
Now, when the Doombringer finds you, your punishment is obvious: They are going to execute you by fire. You are going to be burned at the stake, most likely publicly.
However, when you die - and you will whether or not a Doombringer finds you - Kelemvor is going to review that action. Now, in death you're an immortal spirit which is going to live forever. ...and forever is a long time. ;)
Thus, Kelemvor is likely to sentence you to continuous burning. You will not sleep, nor will you die. But the pain would be real. And you would burn for... say... a light sentence because he happens to feel merciful in this case (you didn't know the children were in the home) - he is going to have you burn for 200 years, a hundred years for each child.
After that you'd likely face punishment for any other crimes you've committed, until you've been completely absolved.
Does that make sense? :P
...or am I misunderstanding you?
Judging the dead is all about following the law , Kelemvor makes the law regarding the false and the faithless but not for ALL dead , there he follows the law that is given to him ( from AO ? ) - if he really sticks to vengeance and justice then he had to keep ALL dead ( no matter if he is a faithful of another deity ) in his realm and judge them .
in your example with the pyromaniac this means : if that pyromaniac is false or faithless kelemvor can judge him and bestow his punishment on him , but what if said pyromaniac is a follower of kossuth and gets picked up? where is kelemvor acting according his vengeance portofolio? and if he really keeps all the dead and judge them, how can he withstand the assault of all deitys who will run to protect their faithfull?
Things are different in 4E. The afterlife is more mysterious.
My version of the Afterlife, or at least the version the Kelemvorite followers give - other faiths may have their own versions - is that only certain souls are collected by the other gods.
Basically, you're only useful to the gods in life. When you pray or worship them, they get power. Once you're dead - it's like a dead battery. You toss it in the trash. There are no more false or faithless, either.
However, in some cases those who were exceptionally loyal and most committed to a deity are picked up and brought back to said deities plane. However, not every soul is collected.
Now, keep in mind that deities are immortal and so are the spirits. Leaving them with Kelemvor for a hundred years or so isn't all that big of a thing, really. Forever is a long time.
So in the case of the Pyromaniac of Kossuth, what is two hundred years to Kossuth? Let's say Kossuth wants this soul. Sure, that's no problem. He burns for two hundred years, and then is handed over to Kossuth to do whatever he wants with the soul for the rest of eternity. Two hundred years is not even a drop in the bucket.
It is no big deal, really.
Of course, different deities may have different versions of the afterlife. Some may play upon this version, or be completely different. I have some worshipers of Auril in the North, for example, who believe her to be the god of death and the dead. They ignore the existence of Kelemvor entirely. In the South some people believe Talona to be the goddess of death (a belief that is spreading).
Followers of Sharess claim that those who serve her receive an eternity of pleasure in the afterlife. They claim that Sharess rewards -all- of her followers, not just a select few. Meanwhile, followers of Loviatar proclaim that those who serve her in life are spared her torments in death, and they preach that Loviatar carries out Kelemvor's punishments. Some Kelemvorites deny this and others embrace it.
Like I said in the beginning of my OP. My gods are much more mysterious and distant. The focus is upon the faithful and the churches. It is completely possible for every word to be bogus.
Hoar working under Jergal will bring more problems than him working under Bane. Jergal's disdain and general disinterest in the actions of mortals goes against Hoar's interest in how many slights mortals have endured and responded too during their lives. This will eventually lead to strife among Hoar and Jergal, the latter thinking he can predict the deaths of mortals around 16 months in advance (but supposedly can't influence the Book of the Dead), the former doing anything in his power to bring about just recompense for actions whereby he would have no problem writting offenders an early entry into the deadbook. I dont think Jergal would like someone messing up Book of the Dead, his only reason for being in the pantheon.
Divine wrath of Hoar in text
Well, I was expecting SmartPaladin, but this sticks with what I expected!
Hm. I see what you are saying, Suin Bahhar. However, that wasn't how I was looking at it when I came up with the idea. When I came up with the idea, it was basically "Hoar kills Kelemvor and takes his stuff." So, basically everything on the Hoar side remains the same, with the added bonus of Kelemvor's power and authority.
Hoar as Kelemvor? Interesting but BLASPHEMY! They blend well together on the aspects of judgement but clash when looked at up close. A difference between Hoar and Kel is Hoar's focus on correcting punishments during life. He believes this will bring about a better understanding of the spirit of the law. If the punishments are out of daily vision and in the afterlife people would likely become complacant and have their rights violated with the idea that the culprits will be punished anyway. Vengeance is an (irrational) emotion of the sentient living, retribution an action meted out to let the living see the extend and necessity of the law. His punishments surely aren't always death though (I hear he's fond of chopping the hands of followers of Mask). I have dificulty seeing Hoar abandon the fight for setting the lighter slights amongst the living right, those slights he so enjoys to correct with irony.
I didn't mean to imply that his priests still were not carrying out such actions in the mortal world. That's exactly what I intended for them to do. I've basically loaded most of the dealing with the dying and corpses and stuff onto Jergal's followers.
I envision Kelemvor's followers thriving most in the places between the "points of light" - small towns and villages between the major cities. Such small places would lack real law enforcement, and in my mind have a more frontier / wild west type of feel. You're kinda on your own out there... and that's where the priests (and other followers) of Kelemvor come in.
They show up and handle local disputes which range from the small, such as slandering someone's reputation, to something more serious like theft, all the way to the most serious such as murder and ****. They are somewhat like self-appointed, vigilante cops who go around, kick down doors, and leave a boot print on the backside of those who cause trouble.
Their justice is harsh but poetically fair. If you **** someone, they're likely going to castrate you. If you murder someone, they're likely to execute you in a similar fashion. If you steal something from someone, they're likely to take back what you stole plus something extra or cut off your hand if you can't return it. For serious slander? Well that depends on what is said and the damage done. If it is serious damage (such as driving someone out of business), they might go so far as to cut out the slanderers tongue. In more mild cases they might simply brand "Liar" across their forehead with a hot iron.
In most cases, it's going to be public and highly visible. Everyone in the small community is going to know what happened and the punishment.
Of course, as we all know, some people do get away. This is where I see my Kelemvor taking it up a notch from where Hoar was - you can't escape. Since all mortals will die eventually, if you do not reconcile your crimes in life then they're going to come back to haunt you in death.
I got the idea by looking at Kelemvor's holy symbol: the scales. I'm reminded of the scales of justice. You want them balanced to avoid any bad punishment in the afterlife. Thus, if you do one bad thing you need to do an equally good thing to counter the bad thing you did. If you have more bad things than good things stacked against you in death, there is going to be some type of punishment based around the actions you took in life. If you had more good things stacked in your favor in death, then there is going to be some type of reward based around those actions you took in life.
Hoar working under Jergal will bring more problems than him working under Bane. Jergal's disdain and general disinterest in the actions of mortals goes against Hoar's interest in how many slights mortals have endured and responded too during their lives. This will eventually lead to strife among Hoar and Jergal, the latter thinking he can predict the deaths of mortals around 16 months in advance (but supposedly can't influence the Book of the Dead), the former doing anything in his power to bring about just recompense for actions whereby he would have no problem writting offenders an early entry into the deadbook. I dont think Jergal would like someone messing up Book of the Dead, his only reason for being in the pantheon.
Hoar / Kelemvor doesn't work under Jergal. Jergal works under Hoar / Kelemvor, and serves in the same position as he did previously, with slightly more status in the mortal world.
Played a iluskan Hoarite rogue till 8th level and really enjoyed it. This idea stings, Hoar has carved out his own unique space within the fearunian pantheon, and his story sould not end with this merger idea IMO. His path to Evil I can feel. My vigilante rogue had fallen into the more darker path of vengeance, fueled by the death of his close companions, so the evil road Hoar now walks is understandable for me.
In my realms Bane is in for some real pain in the future. Especially after Bane's move on Hoars love interest Beshaba which will be counted on Bane's record by Hoar. Hoar will wait for his turn to mete out the punishment Bane deserves in the Doombringers eyes. Interestingly he would have to give equal terms to Beshaba though so Bane might get away for awhile unless Beshaba sees the fun in letting Bane get what he deserves...
If Hoar decided to gank Kelemvor for some slight, now that would work! He'd have to have a real good reason though. Might be fun to tell us Hoarite fans why he did that :P
So just fill in the blank. That's all Kelemvor amounted to anyway.