Like the cannon 4E pantheon, it doesn't have to make sense. There is no explanation behind it, just a name, some titles, and portfolios, leaving the rest for you to make up at your pleasure.
This will not include the demi-human cultural deities (with some exceptions). Below is a "reworked" Faerunian Pantheon, worshiped by primarily humans, but other races as well such as Drow, Dark Elves (Ilythiiri - former Drow), Elves, Halflings, Dwarves, Half-Breeds - and most who live near or in human kingdoms and lands.
---------------
Shar
Mistress of the Night, the Lady of Loss, the Maid of Misfortune, the Dark-Haired Sister
Portfolios: Darkness (in particular the night), nihilism, loss, forgetfulness, secrets, misfortune, lies, deception, illusion
Selune
Our Lady Silver, the Moonmaiden, Lady Luck, Our Smiling Lady, the Fatespinner, the Lady of Adventure, the Fair-Haired Sister
Portfolios: The moon, stars, prophecy, fate, good fortune, friendship, trust, hospitality, wisdom, fertility, adventurers
Gargauth
The Triumphant Lord, the Tyrant, the Lord of Fear, the Lord of the Nine
Portfolios: Ambition, betrayal, corruption, tyranny, hatred, fear, greed, intrigue
Assuran (Hoar)
The Doombringer, the Lord of the Dead, the Judge of the Damned, the Balancer of the Scales
Portfolios: Retribution, poetic justice, the dead
Talos
Lord of the Elemental Chaos, the Destroyer, the Raging One, the Storm Lord, Lord of the Elemental Abyss
Portfolios: Chaos, the elements, destruction, storms
Amaunator
The Sunlord, the Vigilant One, the Divine Right
Portfolios: The sun, rulership, vigilance, laws, purification through fire, crusades
Auril
The Frost Maiden, Ice Dawn, the Lady Consort of Assuran, Lady Frostkiss, She Who Comes For All
Portfolios: Winter, cold, death
Jergal
The Lord of the End of Everything, Scribe of the Doomed, the Seneschal, the Pitiless One, the Pallid Mask
Portfolios: Fatalism, guardian of tombs, proper burial, scribes
Valkur
The Mighty, Captain of the Waves, Grandmaster of Tactics, the Lord of War
Portfolios: Naval combat, oceans, seas, sailors, ships, tactics, strategy
Nobanion
Lord Firemane, King of the Beasts, the Guardian, the Lord of Justice
Portfolios: Justice, beasts, duty, loyalty, guardianship, protection (especially of children), defense, peace-through-conflict
Ilmater
The Quiet One, the Crying God, the One Who Endures, the Broken God, He Who Suffers With All
Portfolios: Endurance, martyrdom, suffering, peace-through-pacifism
Eilistraee
The Masked Lady, the Princess of Passion, the Dancing Lady, Our Lady of Song
Portfolios: Thievery, rebellion, outcasts, moonlight, freedom, dance, passion, beauty, love, song
Azuth
The High One, the Lord of Spells, the Binder of What is Known, the Lord of Knowledge
Portfolios: Knowledge, magic, spells
Malar
The Beastlord, the Black-Blooded Pard
Portfolios: Hunting, stalking, bloodlust, marauding beasts, slaughter, lycanthropy
Uthgar
The Battle Father, Lord of Barbarians, the Warlord, the Lord of Plunder
Portfolios: Physical strength, barbarians, battle, skill-at-arms, plunder, war
Chauntea
The Great Mother, the Grain Goddess, the Golden Goddess, She Who Shapes All, the Earth Mother, Our Lady of the Wood
Portfolios: Nature, agriculture, the seasons, forests, forest creatures, motherhood
Gond
The Wonderbringer, the Lord of all Smiths, the Divine Inspiration, the Holy Maker of All Things, the Shaper
Portfolios: Artifice, craft, construction, smithwork, inspiration
Lolth
The Spider Queen, Demon Queen of the Abyss, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, Weaver of Chaos, the Hunted, the Mother of Lusts, Dark Mother of All Drow, the Matron of Pain
Portfolios: Spiders, the Underdark, caverns, murder, drow, strife, vengeance, hedonism, sensual fulfillment, torture, pain-as-pleasure, agony
Talona
Lady of Poison, Mistress of Disease, She of the Deadly Kiss, Mother of All Plagues, the Darkbringer, the Great Dread Mother, the Rotting Queen
Portfolios: Disease, poison, curses, plagues, undeath, rot, decay, serpents, parasites
Waukeen
The Merchant's Friend, the Mistress of Revels, Our Mistress of Joy
Portfolios: Trade, money, wealth, travel, caravans, trade-by-ship, festivals, joy, happiness
---------------
I hope this proves useful and provokes interesting discussion. ;)
Though I like Hoar and Talos
.I figure dying to T0rm was so humiliating that Gargauth not only killed Asmodeus and took his stuff, but decided to take Bane's as well. :P
Besides, I -really- like the thought of Gargauth having some type of epic coup in the Hells, where he bumps off Asmodeus and takes his place. Anything that helps us deviate from the core is good, IMO. ;)
But yeah, I also like Hoar taking the place of Kelemvor, especially under the new rules for the afterlife. I think he'd like it, too.
Besides, in the cannon Realms, I think Asmodeus is the new god of tyranny but it is hard to say since they have 'spheres' now, not portfolios.
I posted in a previous thread, after having viewed the new 4E pantheon that I still believe they could slim it down even more. Obviously there are those who believe and like things slimmed down, and to be honest I'm a bit caught in the middle.
Like the cannon 4E pantheon, it doesn't have to make sense. There is no explanation behind it, just a name, some titles, and portfolios, leaving the rest for you to make up at your pleasure.
This will not include the demi-human cultural deities (with some exceptions). Below is a "reworked" Faerunian Pantheon, worshiped by primarily humans, but other races as well such as Drow, Dark Elves (Ilythiiri - former Drow), Elves, Halflings, Dwarves, Half-Breeds - and most who live near or in human kingdoms and lands.
---------------
Shar
Mistress of the Night, the Lady of Loss, the Maid of Misfortune, the Dark-Haired Sister
Portfolios: Darkness (in particular the night), nihilism, loss, forgetfulness, secrets, misfortune, lies, deception, illusion
Selune
Our Lady Silver, the Moonmaiden, Lady Luck, Our Smiling Lady, the Fatespinner, the Lady of Adventure, the Fair-Haired Sister
Portfolios: The moon, stars, prophecy, fate, good fortune, friendship, trust, hospitality, wisdom, fertility, adventurers
Gargauth
The Triumphant Lord, the Tyrant, the Lord of Fear, the Lord of the Nine
Portfolios: Ambition, betrayal, corruption, tyranny, hatred, fear, greed, intrigue
Assuran (Hoar)
The Doombringer, the Lord of the Dead, the Judge of the Damned, the Balancer of the Scales
Portfolios: Retribution, poetic justice, the dead
Talos
Lord of the Elemental Chaos, the Destroyer, the Raging One, the Storm Lord, Lord of the Elemental Abyss
Portfolios: Chaos, the elements, destruction, storms
Amaunator
The Sunlord, the Vigilant One, the Divine Right
Portfolios: The sun, rulership, vigilance, laws, purification through fire, crusades
Auril
The Frost Maiden, Ice Dawn, the Lady Consort of Assuran, Lady Frostkiss, She Who Comes For All
Portfolios: Winter, cold, death
Jergal
The Lord of the End of Everything, Scribe of the Doomed, the Seneschal, the Pitiless One, the Pallid Mask
Portfolios: Fatalism, guardian of tombs, proper burial, scribes
Valkur
The Mighty, Captain of the Waves, Grandmaster of Tactics, the Lord of War
Portfolios: Naval combat, oceans, seas, sailors, ships, tactics, strategy
Nobanion
Lord Firemane, King of the Beasts, the Guardian, the Lord of Justice
Portfolios: Justice, beasts, duty, loyalty, guardianship, protection (especially of children), defense, peace-through-conflict
Ilmater
The Quiet One, the Crying God, the One Who Endures, the Broken God, He Who Suffers With All
Portfolios: Endurance, martyrdom, suffering, peace-through-pacifism
Eilistraee
The Masked Lady, the Princess of Passion, the Dancing Lady, Our Lady of Song
Portfolios: Thievery, rebellion, outcasts, moonlight, freedom, dance, passion, beauty, love, song
Azuth
The High One, the Lord of Spells, the Binder of What is Known, the Lord of Knowledge
Portfolios: Knowledge, magic, spells
Malar
The Beastlord, the Black-Blooded Pard
Portfolios: Hunting, stalking, bloodlust, marauding beasts, slaughter, lycanthropy
Uthgar
The Battle Father, Lord of Barbarians, the Warlord, the Lord of Plunder
Portfolios: Physical strength, barbarians, battle, skill-at-arms, plunder, war
Chauntea
The Great Mother, the Grain Goddess, the Golden Goddess, She Who Shapes All, the Earth Mother, Our Lady of the Wood
Portfolios: Nature, agriculture, the seasons, forests, forest creatures, motherhood
Gond
The Wonderbringer, the Lord of all Smiths, the Divine Inspiration, the Holy Maker of All Things, the Shaper
Portfolios: Artifice, craft, construction, smithwork, inspiration
Lolth
The Spider Queen, Demon Queen of the Abyss, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, Weaver of Chaos, the Hunted, the Mother of Lusts, Dark Mother of All Drow, the Matron of Pain
Portfolios: Spiders, the Underdark, caverns, murder, drow, strife, vengeance, hedonism, sensual fulfillment, torture, pain-as-pleasure, agony
Talona
Lady of Poison, Mistress of Disease, She of the Deadly Kiss, Mother of All Plagues, the Darkbringer, the Great Dread Mother, the Rotting Queen
Portfolios: Disease, poison, curses, plagues, undeath, rot, decay, serpents, parasites
Waukeen
The Merchant's Friend, the Mistress of Revels, Our Mistress of Joy
Portfolios: Trade, money, wealth, travel, caravans, trade-by-ship, festivals, joy, happiness
---------------
I hope this proves useful and provokes interesting discussion. ;)
Interesting concept and I kind of like the notion a lot. I would include Corellon though but only because it can be rationalized that the Eladrin/Elves where imports to the world and they could have brought their god with them.
Yes, as I said the list didn't include demi-human cultural deities. That would include the Dwarven, Halfling, Orcish and Elven pantheons. Those deities would primarily be worshiped by half-breeds of a particular race (such as a half-orc worshiping the Orcish pantheon or a half-elf worshiping the elven one), and those of the race they represent. Nominally, they'd be small cults as those races by and large form a minority in Faerun.
Deities such as Lolth would likely be granting spells under a different name, likely Loviatar. Humans would likely worship this deity:
Loviatar
The Mother of Lusts, the Matron of Pain
Portfolios: Hedonism, sensual fulfillment, torture, pain-as-pleasure, agony
They'd likely believe that Loviatar killed Sharress, but in reality Lolth would have killed them both and be granting spells under the Loviatar identity. This would be similar to what she was doing in 4E by granting spells to non-drow under Moander's identity.
Likewise, Eilistraee would likely be worshiped as Mask among the Humans.
It largely depends on where you live, who you interact with, and what faiths are most prevalent in your area.
Since the world is pantheistic, and all the gods are real, it only makes sense that you pay homage to as many as you can. If you're living in the heart of Athkatla as a Dwarven Smith, there is likely no shrine or temple to the Dwarven deities there. Thus, you'd turn to Gond or another deity that closely matches Moradin.
Additionally, I imagine it working very much like it did in the ancient polytheistic world. Normally, when you encounter a "new" god, you often attribute it to a god you're more familiar with just with a different "name". Then you think: "Oh, this is what the Humans call Moradin."
As a result of this the Faerunian Pantheon is cannibalizing the demi-human deities followers, and in some cases, the demi-human deities themselves. This is what happened to the various human cultural pantheons as the Faerunian Pantheon began to form.
Therefore this means the cultural deities are fading, dying out, or withdrawing from the world.
As a result of this the Faerunian Pantheon is cannibalizing the demi-human deities followers, and in some cases, the demi-human deities themselves. This is what happened to the various human cultural pantheons as the Faerunian Pantheon began to form.
Therefore this means the cultural deities are fading, dying out, or withdrawing from the world.
If I recall, this sort of mechanism was brought up in past editions of FR, especially in 3rd Edition. The sort of 'interloper deity' pantheons slowly merged into the general pantheon, either finding a place of their own (with or without their aspects being altered to a degree), being subsumed into a merger with another, similar existing deity, or eventually dying out altogether. Examples of this sort of thing were how Bast (the Mulhorandi deity) morphed into Sharess (part of the general pantheon).
Honestly, I think I would have accepted them presenting things that way a lot better than I have the notion that "They were always the same, *handwave*handwave*" :P
All must worship Shar. She ate the rest of the gods.
Much simpler and easier to handle.
All must worship Shar. She ate the rest of the gods.
Sadly that's what happened to the realms between 3rd edition and 4th edition, only that Shar is in the middle of that process.
If I recall, this sort of mechanism was brought up in past editions of FR, especially in 3rd Edition. The sort of 'interloper deity' pantheons slowly merged into the general pantheon, either finding a place of their own (with or without their aspects being altered to a degree), being subsumed into a merger with another, similar existing deity, or eventually dying out altogether. Examples of this sort of thing were how Bast (the Mulhorandi deity) morphed into Sharess (part of the general pantheon).
Honestly, I think I would have accepted them presenting things that way a lot better than I have the notion that "They were always the same, *handwave*handwave*" :P
Yes, I was always a proponent of that theory. I remember a thread I created some years back, that wrote how eventually even the demi-human cultural deities would merge into the Faerunian Pantheon. I explained how that it was an inevitable process as Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Humans and other races intermingled.
I argued that the Dawn Cataclysm was not simply one big Realms Shaking Event, but rather something that took place over the course of many long years after the fall of Netheril. Basically, after Netheril collapsed its people began to migrate throughout the rest of Faerun, bringing their deities with them. The same was true for the other cultures that at the time were also on the move.
This resulted in a period of cannibalization, and Lathander sought to take advantage of this event to swing the balance toward good. However, Shar somehow managed to counter him and things ended up balancing themselves out, eventually, but not without catastrophic results for some.
It might seem odd that an Elf would worship a deity that is considered to be a human deity, but when you think about it, it is not really that strange. After all, the gods can take many forms and names, and at the end of the day they are of no race - they are just big globs of divine energy.
The Spellplague would have resulted in a period of chaos where individuals were on the move, and smaller cults were weakened as the result of many deaths. This would have then easily opened itself up as another time for cannibalization of the worshipers of weaker deities.
I am not sure if anyone noticed, but I made Waukeen the goddess of festivals, joy and happiness because after the time of Troubles Waukeen went missing. Long story short, Lliira kindly held Waukeen's portfolios for her until she could return. Thus, I am having Waukeen return the favor. ;)
The only Netheril God I would split is maybe Tyche...
I don't think I did such a bad job. I manage to shrink fifty-six gods (Faerunian Pantheon) down into twenty. I even managed to make some more interesting and keep a similar flavor. :P
But really, I think things should be focused upon the individual churches and a deity list like this used as just basic guidelines. Which is why I didn't include any alignments or dogma's.
Barthalas-
Yes, as I said the list didn't include demi-human cultural deities. That would include the Dwarven, Halfling, Orcish and Elven pantheons. Those deities would primarily be worshiped by half-breeds of a particular race (such as a half-orc worshiping the Orcish pantheon or a half-elf worshiping the elven one), and those of the race they represent. Nominally, they'd be small cults as those races by and large form a minority in Faerun.
I think I like the idea of not including them at all unless they where brought to the realms, like the eladrin/elves/drow could have.
"Of course, these are only the major gods who are commonly worshipped world-wide. There are many other minor and regional gods. Additionally, many of the major gods can also be worshiped by other names or guises. Thus, feel free to add to this list by creating your own gods, or including modified versions of the existing ones."
By doing this, we have a simple basic setting, and for those familiar with the old Realms, we've automatically accounted for any 'missing' gods - no need to kill them off - and at the same time, we remind the DM of their power to tailor the setting to suit their own desires.
I think I like the idea of not including them at all unless they where brought to the realms, like the eladrin/elves/drow could have.
That's how the demi-human deities got to the Realms in the first place. Dwarves / Elves / Orcs all came from other worlds or planes, and brought with them their gods. Similar to how Dragonborn got into the Realms, but without blowing things up. (No, the Elves blew stuff up later in ways that were much worse. :P)
That's the way I'm already approaching it. I'm ignoring the cannon pantheon. I don't know if I will use the one I placed here, but I might. I really like some of the ideas. (Such as Hoar taking Kelemvor's place.)
That's how the demi-human deities got to the Realms in the first place. Dwarves / Elves / Orcs all came from other worlds or planes, and brought with them their gods. Similar to how Dragonborn got into the Realms, but without blowing things up. (No, the Elves blew stuff up later in ways that were much worse. :P)
Really? I thought only the elves where "imports"
I'll have to go back a look things up in the GHotR for the other demi-human origins.
Really? I thought only the elves where "imports"
I'll have to go back a look things up in the GHotR for the other demi-human origins.
I know orcs came through in the Orcgate wars, when they were summoned by... who summoned them again? The murann?
I know orcs came through in the Orcgate wars, when they were summoned by... who summoned them again? The murann?
Cool... That would be a good reason to give them their own deity.
I'm a bit more fuzzy on the Dwarves, as I do not know their ancient past very well. However, I remember a discussion awhile back talking about their possible first appearance being in the Yehimal Mountains located in the Utter East. Markus might know more, since I think he was the one who 'figured it out' so to speak.
EDIT to answer the question above: The Orcgate Wars was started by Thayd, the last apprentice of the Imaskari wizards, when he opened a portal to a world entirely dominated by empires of fanatically religious orcs. He also incited the wizards of Mulhorand and Unther into rebellion. He was eventually killed, but as a legacy to Thayd's death Thay (as we once knew it) was eventually founded after breaking away from the Mulhorandi Empire roughly a century or so later.
EDIT to answer the question above: The Orcgate Wars was started by Thayd, the last apprentice of the Imaskari wizards, when he opened a portal to a world entirely dominated by empires of fanatically religious orcs. He also incited the wizards of Mulhorand and Unther into rebellion. He was eventually killed, but as a legacy to Thayd's death Thay (as we once knew it) was eventually founded after breaking away from the Mulhorandi Empire roughly a century or so later.
Ah yes I remember now. And so the Red Wizards were founded on a legacy of awesomeness.
thecasualoblivion's slimmer 4E Forgotten Realms Pantheon
All must worship Shar. She ate the rest of the gods.
Much simpler and easier to handle.
-That works.
Here's my latest version.
Ah yes I remember now. And so the Red Wizards were founded on a legacy of awesomeness.
Yes, they were. To bad they didn't keep that legacy of awesomeness throughout their lifetime. :P
Why these gods?
1. Assuran
2. Auril
3. Jergal
4. Valkur
5. Uthgar
6. Talona
7. Nobanion
Personally; I would have kept Asmodeus but it's interesting you chose to ditch Oghma (so did I), Silvanus, Sune, Kelemvor, Umberlee, Torm, and Bane.
Man, that’s still so many gods. FR seems to catch deities like a dog catches flees.
And that is perfect, more gods = more choices.
And that is perfect, more gods = more choices.
I'd rather each god was a meaningful entity with a unique feel to them. I'd like my campaigns to be a divine tapistry with a few, striking colors, because if you add too many colors all you end up with is gray.
I'd rather each god was a meaningful entity with a unique feel to them. I'd like my campaigns to be a divine tapistry with a few, striking colors, because if you add too many colors all you end up with is gray.
And each god of the realms has it. Some are easier to see, others need a little more work, but there are differences between them, Milil and Finder Wyvernspur, tough being both gods of art, they are of different ones, and a bard that favours one kind of performance over another will have more reasons to choose one over the other.
And if you believe FR has too many gods I would suggest you play Exalted. They have gods even for a single pebble.
Actually, my players have always felt that Exalted was perfect for what the Realms should be but the Realms sucked at. In Exalted, there's meaningful differences between the level of power that each god wields.
Exalted is one of the things I'm dying to play/DM.
Couple of questions here:
Why these gods?
1. Assuran
2. Auril
3. Jergal
4. Valkur
5. Uthgar
6. Talona
7. Nobanion
Personally; I would have kept Asmodeus but it's interesting you chose to ditch Oghma (so did I), Silvanus, Sune, Kelemvor, Umberlee, Torm, and Bane.
Assuran replaced Kelemvor, and I did so because I felt his ironic methods of passing judgment were more interesting than bland Kelemvor. This is important because in the 4E Realms, it seems that most souls just linger around in the Fugue Plane. This gives Assuran (Hoar) a chance to really dish out some divine retribution.
I could have axed Auril and Jergal easily. They weren't needed or required. However, I wanted Auril to be the consort of Assuran and become the goddess of death. As when you die your body becomes cold. I envisioned her becoming a cross between Lims-Kragma (Midkemia) and a female Bhaal. However, she'd work for Assuran. But, eh. You could axe her and just give him the death portfolio.
I kept Jergal simply because I love him too much to kill him. :P
Valkur replaced Umberlee AND Red Knight, and is seeking the portfolio of war.
Uthgar replaced Garagos and became a general barbarian god - not just a deity specific to the Uthgart. He also became a god of war. He's worshiped in various different ways depending on who you interact with. In civilized lands he's worshiped as Uthgar, a war god with a strong focus on physical strength and skill-at-arms. In barbarian tribes he's either worshiped via totems or as a god of war, plunder and physical strength.
Talona expanded her portfolios greatly. As I imagine divine magic (and magic in general) is far less common in the Realms than before, plagues and the like will be much more common. Thus Talona's presence increases. As well, she somewhat steps up to take Sseth's role among serpents and snake-like-people (Yuan-ti).
Nobanion replaces Tyr, Torm and takes on some of Helm's portfolios.
I could condense the pantheon much further, but really, it is only twenty deities. If you give Jergal and Auril the axe then you are down to eighteen without any major loss of flavor.
I tried to lower the number of deities, while still keeping enough of them for a large number of choices. As well, I wanted to try and preserve the Realms flavor somewhat in a slimmer, more condensed pantheon.
I ditched Asmodeus because he was far less important to Toril than Gargauth. Gargauth also replaced Bane. He is also a more interesting deity. Silvanus was folded into Chauntea.
I am strongly of the opinion that deities can be worshiped differently depending on location, culture and outlook on life. So I basically folded all the nature deities into Chauntea, similar to how I folded all the elemental deities into Talos. To a farmer Chauntea is the goddess of the harvest and fertility. To a druid, Chauntea is the goddess of the woods and land - Toril itself manifested into divinity.
And as I said above Kelemvor was pretty much folded into Assuran (Hoar) whole cloth, Umberlee was axed and her portfolios given to Valkur, and Torm was pretty much folded into Nobanion.
And each god of the realms has it. Some are easier to see, others need a little more work, but there are differences between them, Milil and Finder Wyvernspur, tough being both gods of art, they are of different ones, and a bard that favours one kind of performance over another will have more reasons to choose one over the other.
Slight, subtle differences don't lead to striking tapestries. To me, meaningful, unique gods does not traslate into "you can have a god of music who likes romance and a god of music who likes harps."
And if you believe FR has too many gods I would suggest you play Exalted. They have gods even for a single pebble.
What possible logic would cause you to recommend a game based only on it having in abundence an elements I've said I dislike? That's like saying, "Oh, you thought The Hills have Eyes was too gory? You should check out Saw!"
I believe his argument was "Forgotten Realms is not nearly as bad as Exalted."
I'm still confused as to why he'd suggest I play it.
Anyways, as I understand it, the 'thousand little gods' of Exalted are just powerful spirits. They're akin to angels, dryads, and the like in DnD. I have no problem with there being many of those.
My problem is more managing the gods in such a way that it feels like the Realms (so I won't be slimming down the pantheon) while doing all the gods justice.
Mystra's worshipers would be concentrated almost entirely in cities, and mostly cities with a large number of magic users (such as Waterdeep). However, you'd see little of her worship in places where magic users are distrusted in general such as Chessenta, Turmish, Amn, etc. She'd have a presence but it'd be very small, mostly shrines, and few temples (if any at all).
If you're in the Moonshae's then you're not likely to see many individuals of other faiths outside of the main cities, and those that are there are from the mainland on missionary work. Most all of the Ffolk worship Jannath (Chauntea) and the Northerners worship Tempus.
The worship of Tyr becomes more prominent the further south you go, in places such as Tethyr, along the sword coast in general, and becomes less of an influence the further east you go. Likewise, Ilmater's worship is strongest in the Bloodstone Lands, Tethyr, and regions along the Sword Coast.
In general, you'll only find a large number of worshipers of many different gods in cities, and mostly just cities that have a port that receives travelers and trade from far abroad. This is the most common in the Sea of Fallen Stars region, but the further inland you go, the less number of gods you find.
For demigods and lesser deities it is completely possible that they are completely unknown in parts of Faerun, and even the Greater Gods are likely unknown to almost everyone outside of it.
I think I found that information in the Lands of Intrigue (downloadable from the WotC site), so I'll have to check it to verify.
thecasualoblivion's slimmer 4E Forgotten Realms Pantheon
All must worship Shar. She ate the rest of the gods.
ROFL :D
Eilistraee?? She is dead so shouldn't be on this list. If anything, good drow who used to worship Eilistraee could worship Selune now.
Slight, subtle differences don't lead to striking tapestries.
-Having just went to a museum the other day, and being completely blown away by some of the artwork there, I can attest that the slight, subtle differences in color, texture, and all of that stuff does indeed lead to the really striking pictures! Really beautiful stuff.
What possible logic would cause you to recommend a game based only on it having in abundence an elements I've said I dislike? That's like saying, "Oh, you thought The Hills have Eyes was too gory? You should check out Saw!"
-That's how people talk. It's common to have people say things like, "Oh, you thought The Hills have Eyes was too gory? You should check out Saw!" ;)
Barakmordin
Barakmordin means "the Shielding Mountains" but refers to the three corner towers of the fortified abbey that rests at the Ithal Road where it splits to go to Ithal Pass or Saradush. Its individual towers each act as a temple to the individual gods, while the attendant buildings and the central keep are the collective temples for the Triad and the marshalling area for the Knights Kuldar of Barakmordin (holy warriors of all three faiths who vow to heal the sick, help the weak, and avenge those harmed by injustice).
Barakmordin was founded during the reign of King Samyte the Martyr in the Year of Ten Atonements (839 DR) as a partially fortified garrison and shrine for Torm. Seventy years later, the complex was damaged by a goblin horde out of the Omlarandin Mountains to the east. With the reconstruction, the three comer towers were added for stability. In the Year of the Spawning (1070 DR), during the year-long reign of Teremir II, a shrine to Ilmater was also adopted within Barakmordin to aid the steadfast Tormish who remained loyal to the Lions' Dynasty and Alemander, brother to the slain King Coram II. King Alemander I made royal donations to the orders, and Barakmordin gained its outer walls and a new central keep, all of which stand 300 years later. Lastly, the worship of Tyr built slowly here, but the valiant stand of a quartet of Tyr-sworn paladins during a monster attack from the Forest of Mir proved Tyr's worth to the insular orders here. By the Year of Three Faces (1198 DR), Barakmordin became what it is today: a tripartite religious abbey and garrison.
The Knights Kuldar of Barakmordin: The fortified abbey of Barakmordin is one of the few collective temple complexes to the Triad of Ilmater, Torm, and Tyr. What sets it and its worshipers apart from other individual groups honoring any of the Triad is its singular order of militant holy warriors. Composed of clerics, crusaders, paladins, rangers, priests, and pious fighters of all three faiths, the Knights Kuldar have all vowed to do their best to heal the sick, help the weak, and avenge those harmed by injustice. Sometimes called the Barakmordanna among the martial commanders, one from each faith of the Triad: Revered Father Darrom Vallson, Painbearer of Ilmater (LN hm P12); Tomas Trosbann, Great Sword of Torm (LG hm Pal14); and Hammer Lord Gharek Minorson, Holy Justice of Tyr (LG hm P11). Each man is among the senior clergies of the temples of Barakmordin, though his primary activities are among the Knights Kuldar. This order has been a tripartite coalition since the Year of the Lean Purse (1198 DR).
Religion
Tethyr has always been tolerant of religions. However, gods that condone the wanton destruction of land, such as Talos (a.k.a. Bhaelros in areas south of Darromar), tend to be shunned and their faithful ostracized. Some creeds (e.g., Bane, Beshaba, and Cyric) are also unwelcome because of connections with the old regime or the Alemandrian Interregnum. Gods such as Helm, Ilmater, Torm, Tyr, and the nature gods revered in the Forest of Tethir are now prominent thanks to their worshipers' benevolent activities during the last two decades of chaos.
With the reestablishment of order, some strictures were set on religious practices to prevent a resurgence of the anarchy present during the Interregnum. For example, the widespread worship of Bane reputedly fueled the havoc of the Ten Black Days of Eleint as well as maintained some despotic overlords in the years that followed. A measure enforced in Waterdeep has been borrowed to prevent such pious lawlessness. By decree of the Monarch's Privy Council, faiths that wish to worship within Tethyr must hold to the following canon:
* Worship of an individual deity cannot involve the theft or destruction of other beings. No sacrifice of humans, demihumans, humanoids, or animals is allowed.
* A deity’s veneration cannot demand tribute from those outside its faith. The faithful may give offerings as they see fit, but nonbelievers cannot be coerced to do so.
* Harmful activities countenanced by one’s religion cannot be practiced upon nonbelievers with impunity. For example, followers of Tempus cannot run amok in the highlands, wantonly attacking others simply to further the name of the god of battle. Such worship is often welcome in times of war, provided it is used against Tethyr's foes.
The most prominent gods worshiped in this land are not always the most powerful ones. Nearly every god is paid lip service, depending on the situation, but the following gods carry the most influence and worship throughout the country.
* Chauntea's significance to Tethyr is long-held and precious, since the importance of land-holding and agriculture stems back to the country's founding 15 centuries ago. The reign of Alemander IV saw a marked drop in Chauntea's worship as more weight was placed on mercantilism and urban development, but the highlanders never lost touch with her and are still her strongest supporters.
* Ilmater's importance comes from the alleviation of the suffering of Tethyr's people during the last century. The church established 10 cloisters in Tethyr over the past 400 years, three of which came into being during the Alemandrian Interregnum. All cloisters are placed throughout the country so that a pilgrim or devotee can, with effort, travel from one to another within a day's ride.
* Helm's church established knightly orders that partially curbed the havoc of the Interregnum. The three major fortified holdings of this church at Survale Ford, Velen, and Saradush kept the abuses of nobles and would-be kings to a minimum. Helm and his priests are still respected in Tethyr, if in few other places in Faerûn, for just this reason.
* Silvanus and Eldath are equally revered by the folk of Mosstone, Port Kir, Brost, and other settlements near the Forest of Tethir. Astonishingly, elves of the forest also honor these gods as protectors of their home. Unlike other sects that place Silvanus above other nature gods, those within Tethir's glades treat the strength of Silvanus equally with the peace of Eldath to show the power of nature's harmony.
* Sune and Lliira are powers among the idle rich in the cities of Tethyr. Such worship is frowned upon by rural citizens.
* Siamorphe, a demigoddess formerly limited to Waterdeep, has a small but growing following in Tethyr. Queen Zaranda's public conversion to the church of Siamorphe were proof to Tethyrians of her nobility; the manifestations of Siamorphe at Zaranda's wedding and coronation showed many the power of the queen's noble heart. Many nobles now either piously worship or at least pay lip service to Siamorphe, to show their people that they, too, are accepted as nobles by the goddess of divine rule. While she herself holds no noble title, the Queen's Minister Lady Harlaa Assumbar, as the chief priestess of Siamorphe, is respected, loved, or feared by various nobles.
I allow all gods in my game, even if they are not known in the Realms (I ditch the whole concept of 'Interlopers'). My son worshipped Kord (GH) in my last FR campaign.
I'm thinking about putting together an 'over-pantheon' of all the Primal Powers and list all their aliases. In truth, I can't see there be much more then thrirty or so greater/intermediate gods.
I have a new concept for the Pantheons... let me think on this a while...
A single divine being could have many different worshipers, and be worshiped differently depending on location and culture. As well a single divine being may have many different names in which it is worshiped under. To make it more complicated, a single divine being may even have separate aspects that are not related to the being as a whole and is effectively a separate god. (In fact, this is how many new gods are formed - pieces of, or fragments of another deity.)
I am trying to ditch the whole notion that only one deity may hold one portfolio at a time. There are many ways to interpret portfolios and they can be subdivided or new spins placed upon them.
Then there are new gods popping up all the time, powerful spirits that can grant divine spells and the like.
So in the end, even if you don't have a deity that doesn't suit your needs, you can always make one up and have it be reasonably believable.
The gods I listed in the OP would only be deities that I would consider to be 'Greater Gods' of the Faerunian Pantheon. The only two typical non-human deities on the list are Eilistraee (as I ignore what happened at the end of that book), who basically is worshiped as 'Mask' or 'the Masked Lady' and Lolth, who has mostly taken Loviatar / Sharess' old roles.
In the end I think I am most proud of what I did with Hoar. I believe he would make an awesome replacement for Kelemvor. As well, I like the idea of Gargauth replacing Bane at the very least, if not Asmodeus as well. (Simply to make the Realms more unique and less like Core.)
I am trying to ditch the whole notion that only one deity may hold one portfolio at a time. There are many ways to interpret portfolios and they can be subdivided or new spins placed upon them.
-How do you plan on...'quantifying' that, I guess, for a lack of better words?
And maybe Ao allows it to happen? Who knows. :P
After all, I figure there has to be a better way to take a portfolio from another deity aside from killing them.
Well, it works in Greyhawk. ;)
-I don't know nothing about Greyhawk, so maybe you could elaborate?
Heironeous is the god of chivalry, justice, honor, war, daring and valor.
Hextor is the god of war, discord, massacres, conflict, fitness, and tyranny.
As you can see, they both hold the war portfolio. However, they fundamentally represent two different aspects of war. Thus, my logic is: Why can't more than one deity (above demigod) in the Realms hold the same portfolio, provided that they represent that portfolio in a different light or fashion than another deity?
After all, I figure there has to be a better way to take a portfolio from another deity aside from killing them.
There is. It's sort of like a divine game of Monopoly or Risk. Oh, and the pieces are mortals of a sort.
It's easier if I just give an example.
Heironeous is the god of chivalry, justice, honor, war, daring and valor.
Hextor is the god of war, discord, massacres, conflict, fitness, and tyranny.
As you can see, they both hold the war portfolio. However, they fundamentally represent two different aspects of war. Thus, my logic is: Why can't more than one deity (above demigod) in the Realms hold the same portfolio, provided that they represent that portfolio in a different light or fashion than another deity?
-Gotcha. Wouldn't the two deities having fundamentally different aspects of war be two different portfolios, however? I know, I would quantify the above as Heironeous having 'Organized Battle' (War), and Hextor having 'The Chaos of a Blowout' (War), or something along those lines.
Note: I did not read the whole thread, so someone else may have already raised this. This horrified me enough to prompt me to post immediately.
Eilistraee
The Masked Lady, the Princess of Passion, the Dancing Lady, Our Lady of Song
Portfolios: Thievery, rebellion, outcasts, moonlight, freedom, dance, passion, beauty, love, song
Lolth
The Spider Queen, Demon Queen of the Abyss, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, Weaver of Chaos, the Hunted, the Mother of Lusts, Dark Mother of All Drow, the Matron of Pain
Portfolios: Spiders, the Underdark, caverns, murder, drow, strife, vengeance, hedonism, sensual fulfillment, torture, pain-as-pleasure, agony
No, just... No!
Speaking as a hedonist myself, I don't like the idea of hedonism-and-sensual-fulfillment-as-evil, which is what you're basically doing by giving it to an evil deity. Much better to give it to an unaligned deity or a Good one (the latter is probably letting my own biases shine through, though).
The way you have things, Lolth would gain power/worship/whateveryouwanttocallit every time someone takes a bite of something they like to eat, every time a person makes love with their beloved, etc. Which does not compute, at least not in my mind, for an evil deity. That much "positive" energy is going to change her alignment over a short period of time, corrupting her in its own way.
IMHO, if you want to keep it balanced - have Lolth be the matron of EXCESS and SELFISH PLEASURES, and give hedonism and sensual fulfillment to Eilistraee.
I actually did give hedonism and sensual fulfillment to Eilistraee, but then changed it to Lolth before I posted. Despite what I said in my opening post I was trying to think about things in a some what logical manor when assigning portfolios.
I look at it this way. The sea isn't evil because Umberlee happens to be evil. Likewise, hedonism and sensual fulfillment (more likely the excess thereof) are not evil because Lolth holds their portfolios. We all know that Drow are an incredibly hedonistic society and race, so that was one of my primary reasons of giving it to her.
Additionally, I don't imagine Lolth or Eilistraee being worshiped by their true names in human society. I believe Eilistraee would be worshiped as Mask, and Lolth would be worshiped as Loviatar.
As Loviatar she'd primarily be worshiped as a deity of hedonism, sensual fulfillment, torture, and pain-as-pleasure. I went with this line of thinking because Sharess was a goddess of Festhalls, and going by Ed's comments there are various types of fetishes and kinks that can be found there. I figure it's the primary place that the S&M club hangs out, so I simply interwove them together.
Although, it's certainly true the way the portfolios have been administered has changed, the portfolios themselves are not evil. I don't imagine giving Eilistraee the portfolio of hedonism would change how it is administered all that much, and the portfolio sensual fulfillment would only change in so far as her trying to better integrate it with her other portfolios, namely love, passion and beauty.
I really tried to split the aspects of Sharress (and Sune) down the middle between the two deities. So Eilistraee is more or less a deity of love, beauty, passion with those you love, living life to its fullest, being free and rebelling against social and cultural norms. Whereas Lolth is the reverse side of the coin, where beauty is taken for granted, often abused and mistreated (or destroyed if it is more beautiful than you), where love is viewed as an unwanted emotion due to attachment, and where you live your life in such a way where only your pleasure and desires matter even if they come at the expense of others.
Yeah, I know it isn't an ideal way to split things up, but it's the route I decided to go.
So yay for Lolth!
18DELTA
But another debate for another time.
-Like an addiction, the actual sensation that someone gets by getting high might make them feel good, but most drug addict say that they feel dirty by stealing to get the money they need for their fixes, or hurting others because of the need to get their fix, and so on.
Dark Elves (Ilythiiri - former Drow)
Actually, the Ilythiiri stayed Drow and the Miyeritari were transformed to their former dark elf nature with the death (read: self-sacrifice) of Eilistraee and the help of High Magic.
... Unless WotC retconned this, too, which would invalidate Lisa Smedman's Lady Penitent novels. :S
You're probably right and I'm wrong. I don't know about any retcon. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Like an addiction, the actual sensation that someone gets by getting high might make them feel good, but most drug addict say that they feel dirty by stealing to get the money they need for their fixes, or hurting others because of the need to get their fix, and so on.
Yes, that's how I view Lolth as well. The important thing I think I need to point out is this: The way the portfolio was previously administered has changed. The "good" and "neutral" aspects of Sharress's portfolio have gone to Eilistraee while the "evil" aspects have gone to Lolth.
It's like this: Eilistraee "High On Life" vs Lolth "Just High". Lolth's version of hedonism is self-destructive, not only to the individual, but to society as a whole. The perverse pleasures that she embraces are in no way good. Ever seen the Hostel movies? Lolth is the goddess of murder as well. That type of stuff, it's right up her alley. Capture some goodie-goodie elf, ****, torture, murder and get off to it all at the same time right under a single deity.
Drugs? No problem. Lolth encourages that, too. In fact, the more addictive the better, the more self-destructive the better. Come on in and get your fix of the black lotus. Whatever you want, whatever feels good - that's what Lolth offers.
Eilistraee on the other hand is more about passion, love and beauty. She's certainly the counter-culture girl, being the deity of rebellion and freedom. She isn't exactly a "good" deity anymore (IMO), but she certainly trends in that direction.
Here is what Ed had to say on the matter in the past:
Ardashir, “festhalls” (Jeff Grubb’s word, substituted for my “brothels” for TSR Code of Ethics reasons) vary in customs, but the more elaborate ones ARE “a cross between a private club, a casino, and a brothel.”
This is due to the fact that many folk in Faerûn can readily couple with someone (on a rooftop or behind a midden in crowded cities, and ‘out in the woods’ or in a nearby thicket or hollow in a distant pasture, in a rural setting) if mere sexual gratification is all they want. What they go to the brothels for (and yes, some of these establishments are private clubs, particularly those specializing in S&M, mate-swapping, or inter-species congress) is for ‘added fun.’
By this term, I mean: striptease performances, playacting and dressing up in outlandish costumes (“Hah, my pretty, I’m not merely Rorold the fat butcher from down the street - - I’m Ravagar Wanderglar, dread pirate of the Serpent Seas!”), the chance to gamble (betting one’s body, temporary freedom, or items of clothing) or gambol (yes, dance), make love to music, have access to situations visitors wouldn’t dare try outside a club (mock **** of a priest or priestess or ruler or other authority figure), making love on a tomb, crossdressing, eating food off the bodies of strangers, and so on), and the chance (particularly in masked revels) to enjoy someone else in a small community who’s married to someone else - - to ‘find’ each other in public, or even be seen heading off to a tryst, would cause a scandal, but going to the brothel separately and getting up to all manner of hijinx there, even (in some cases) if observed by fellow community members, is ‘okay’ (the brothel is accepted as ‘outside’ normal society, a safety valve in which folk can temporarily set aside their usual public manner and status).
I see the popularity of brothels in the Realms as based on the Faerûnian love of play: as in our real world, children lose many opportunities for playing as they grow up (unless they can shift into participation in a sport, or acting, or performing and use that as an outlet), but brothels offer a place to go on playing, lifelong.
Some people never engage in a sexual physical act at a brothel, but visit them often. Some of these go to watch the fun (ogling), some go for the chance to flirt or make lewd suggestions they’d never dare utter elsewhere, and some just like to chat or play cards or drink with others while naked, or while crossdressing, or while pretending to be of a race or profession (example: the pirate above) that they’re not. Some folks frequent festhalls to play tag, or blindfolded tag, or all sorts of other games that again, are play but not necessarily sexual.
(And then of course there are also brothels that are ‘simple *****houses,’ particularly in ports where sailors make landing after long voyages without access to ‘fresh faces,’ or caravans disperse ditto.)
In general the above would all be perfectly acceptable under the views and beliefs of Eilistraee, encompassed by her passion, rebellion and freedom portfolios.
However, what I think Ed glossed over is that there are certainly places in the Realms where... things are certainly "darker". Where "mock ****" becomes "real ****" and the simple *****house becomes what is tantamount to sexual enslavement. A place where the love of "play" is replaced by carnal desire, and pleasure for the sake of pleasure, your own pleasure, at the expense of all else. A place where you can do what you want, to who you want, so long as you have enough coin, etc.
That is what Lolth offers, and that is something that cannot, at least in D&D alignment terms, ever be considered good or even neutral aligned.