(1) Agrach Dyrr is an upstart house. (No it is not)
(2) Barrison Del'Armgo took over Agrach Dyrr as the 2nd house. (Agrach Dyrr was the 5th house)
Wtf's:
(1) Quenthel killed Triel
(2) House Melarn was created out of 'veneration' of the Lady Penitent (who was supposedly a disposable toy of Lolth's)
Inconsistencies:
(1) Agrach Dyrr is an upstart house. (No it is not)
-Sure it was. Their actions in the War of the Spider Queen series certainly makes them an upstart house.
(2) House Melarn was created out of 'veneration' of the Lady Penitent (who was supposedly a disposable toy of Lolth's)
-This much doesn't make sense, being as:
A) House Melarn already existed before the Lady Penitent (though, not in Menzoberranzan. In Ched Nesad). It would make sense if they were "refounded" in Menzoberranzan, however. But, by whom?
B) As demonstrated by Q'whatever his name was, the members of House Melarn were of pure Miyeritari blood. As such, they would have transformed into Dark Elves when Eilistraee sacrificed herself, and wouldn't be able to survive in the Underdark.
-What is your source, by the way?
-Sure it was. Their actions in the War of the Spider Queen series certainly makes them an upstart house.
No, I remember reading from somewhere that Agrach Dyrr was a very ancient house.
A) House Melarn already existed before the Lady Penitent (though, not in Menzoberranzan. In Ched Nesad). It would make sense if they were "refounded" in Menzoberranzan, however. But, by whom?
It was created through the union of two houses.
B) As demonstrated by Q'whatever his name was, the members of House Melarn were of pure Miyeritari blood. As such, they would have transformed into Dark Elves when Eilistraee sacrificed herself, and wouldn't be able to survive in the Underdark.
-What is your source, by the way?
They were fans of Lady Penitent supposedly. The source is 4ed FRCS - I gave that book a glance through in a local bookstore.
One thing that I have grips with is that Triel's considerably more intelligent than Quenthel. Considering the events of WotSQ, I would've expected Triel to have consolidated her position in House Baenre.
-This much doesn't make sense...
I believe that is the general gist of his post... though I expect you're well aware of that.
18DELTA :P
BTW ... Did any Melarn ever visit Menzoberranzan? Regarding Lady Penitent's vener- and House Melarn creation?
BTW II ... the ninja-assassin in LP III started something of a cult of LP, but that was localized in Guiallidurth and Sshamath and lasted for about no-time.
No, I remember reading from somewhere that Agrach Dyrr was a very ancient house.
-The definition of 'upstart' is "a person who has risen suddenly from a humble position to wealth, power, or a position of consequence." By the actions of the house in the WotSQ books, Agrach Dyrr is certainly an upstart house. That they are an ancient and respected house (well, were, actually) doesn't negate this.
It was created through the union of two houses.
-Which two? Does it say?
They were fans of Lady Penitent supposedly. The source is 4ed FRCS - I gave that book a glance through in a local bookstore.
-Well, like I said, that much doesn't make sense...
One thing that I have grips with is that Triel's considerably more intelligent than Quenthel. Considering the events of WotSQ, I would've expected Triel to have consolidated her position in House Baenre.
-So, Quenthel is the Matron Mother now?
Zanan would know. But does she care? I'll ask her later.
-No, no she doesn't.
BTW ... Did any Melarn ever visit Menzoberranzan? Regarding Lady Penitent's vener- and House Melarn creation?
-I'm sure it's not that out there to assume that, in the collapse of Ched Nesad, surviving refugees who were of House Melarn fled to Menzoberranzan, being that they had some trade deals with her.
BTW II ... the ninja-assassin in LP III started something of a cult of LP, but that was localized in Guiallidurth and Sshamath and lasted for about no-time.
-Also, considering that all of the known "major players" died...
-The definition of 'upstart' is "a person who has risen suddenly from a humble position to wealth, power, or a position of consequence." By the actions of the house in the WotSQ books, Agrach Dyrr is certainly an upstart house. That they are an ancient and respected house (well, were, actually) doesn't negate this.
Agrach Dyrr was a very powerful house during WotSQ and was by no means "risen suddenly from a humble position to wealth, power, or a position of consequence". The fact that they represented Barrison Del'Armgo as replacement for Agrach Dyrr as the second house reinforced the notion that the one writing that section of FRCS did not really know what he's writing.
-Which two? Does it say?
Yes, both minor houses within the top 20. I forgot which two. House Melarn = 7th house btw.
-Well, like I said, that much doesn't make sense...
Thus this thread.
-So, Quenthel is the Matron Mother now?
Yes, she killed Triel. Considering that Quenthel's an idiot in WotSQ and Triel had been much smarter drow, it's goofy.
Agrach Dyrr was a very powerful house during WotSQ and was by no means "risen suddenly from a humble position to wealth, power, or a position of consequence". The fact that they represented Barrison Del'Armgo as replacement for Agrach Dyrr as the second house reinforced the notion that the one writing that section of FRCS did not really know what he's writing.
-Agrach Dyrr was listed as House number six on the council. During the events of the book plot, they temporarily became House number one. Thus, the definition fits. I know what I'm talking about. ;)
Yes, she killed Triel. Considering that Quenthel's an idiot in WotSQ and Triel had been much smarter drow, it's goofy.
-Was she helped, perhaps? I could see Gromph aiding her covertly, in that Quenthel would be much easier to manipulate than Triel.
-Was she helped, perhaps? I could see Gromph aiding her covertly, in that Quenthel would be much easier to manipulate than Triel.
Reply With Quote
I got the impression in WotSQ that it was the other way around. He tried to kill Quenthel more than once and she was his personal enemy, something like a nemesis. But the authors tried to invoke the impression that he got along with Triel and both helped each other more than once and it was somewhere in this novels said, that he had some influence on her.
OK that could have changed in the years after Quenthels return from the Pits. But then, someone so deeply atuned to the way of Lolth and who met her personally in her realm, was even sent back to tell from her mighty return would be a respected person in a drow city, wouldn't she? So maybe he changed alliances and let Triel go to hell (ehm, Abyss) and take his/her now stupid but more respected sister.
But the rest makes no sense. Agrach Dyrr? The house wich alligned with the enemies of Lolth and Menzo got any influence? I would have expected that every drow in Menzo would happily kill them, burn them and make a little funeral pire to Lolths glory of their bones.
House Melarn refounded? Huh? Q'arlynd tried this desperately and got it never done, because it was said, that no high member of the house survived, and the last who did was his sister, but she died als LP, so who the hack could revive a dead house then, especially a house of "light drow" with the mark of this new created Dark elves? Sounds like bantha poodoh.
I got the impression in WotSQ that it was the other way around. He tried to kill Quenthel more than once and she was his personal enemy, something like a nemesis. But the authors tried to invoke the impression that he got along with Triel and both helped each other more than once and it was somewhere in this novels said, that he had some influence on her.
-I agree, that Gromph seemed to dislike Quenthel a lot more than Triel. But, we also know that Triel was a lot smarted than Quenthel, and was starting to grow into the throne that she sat upon, proverbially. Feeling that he could no longer manipulate Triel, it is very plausible that Gromph decided to aid Quenthel in killing Triel, because he would be more able to exploit Quenthel's weaknesses than he would Triels.
-I agree, that Gromph seemed to dislike Quenthel a lot more than Triel. But, we also know that Triel was a lot smarted than Quenthel, and was starting to grow into the throne that she sat upon, proverbially. Feeling that he could no longer manipulate Triel, it is very plausible that Gromph decided to aid Quenthel in killing Triel, because he would be more able to exploit Quenthel's weaknesses than he would Triels.
That was my second thought, so I edited my post above.
But I am a nice european, so you must not scroll up, I quote myself :D
OK that could have changed in the years after Quenthels return from the Pits. But then, someone so deeply atuned to the way of Lolth and who met her personally in her realm, was even sent back to tell from her mighty return would be a respected person in a drow city, wouldn't she? So maybe he changed alliances and let Triel go to hell (ehm, Abyss) and take his/her now stupid but more respected sister.
House Melarn refounded? Huh? Q'arlynd tried this desperately and got it never done, because it was said, that no high member of the house survived, and the last who did was his sister, but she died als LP, so who the hack could revive a dead house then, especially a house of "light drow" with the mark of this new created Dark elves? Sounds like bantha poodoh.
This is where the word "veneration" comes in. There really doesn't need to be a true blooded Melarn left in the world in this case.
Halisstra Melarn rose from House Melarn to become Lloth's Champion and killed Eilistraee. Drow--true drow--take the name for themselves and create a house in her name--for any number of reasons. It's like being a Kennedy or somethin'.
I can see it.
Halisstra Melarn rose from House Melarn to become Lloth's Champion and killed Eilistraee. Drow--true drow--take the name for themselves and create a house in her name--for any number of reasons. It's like being a Kennedy or somethin'.
The problem is, that first she was not Lolths Champion and betrayed Lolth (but ultimately was betrayed by Lolth and being only the tool to get the real Champion Wendonai in the right spot on the game board). The second problem is, besides Q'arlynd and some of the Eilistraeean High priestesses (like the dead Qilué) no one came to know who the Lady Penitent really was. ;) All who had known the truth are dead or now in the world above. And the rest thought of house melarn as one of the houses who brought the downfall of Ched Nasad, so I don't think that they would be cheered and welcomed in Menzo. Especially from Quenthel, who had known Halisstra as a traitor to Lolth and a weakling and pain in the ass.
Then there is the question how many drow know something about the LP? Even years after her return to Toril she was unkown to the drow killer lady and her people (have forgotten the name, Tarl or something like that). Then she startet a sect wich even not worshipped Lolth, so a sect of heretics, but also in a small part of drow culture. If she was intended as some drow hero, then Mrs. Smedman would surely have made this more clear, so she wrote her as a side event and as something clearly oposing Lolth. Nothing a real drow would like to have in his/her line of ancestors.
-Agrach Dyrr was listed as House number six on the council. During the events of the book plot, they temporarily became House number one. Thus, the definition fits. I know what I'm talking about. ;)
In case you are not joking:
The ruling houses were in the following order before the start of WotSQ: Baenre, Barrison Del'Armgo, Faen Tlabbar, Xolarrin, Agrach Dyrr, Mizzrym, Fey Branche, and Tuin'Tarl. I am not sure how Agrach Dyrr was the sixth house.
Also, after Agrach Dyrr betrayed the rest of the city, it was placed under heavy siege by Baenre and Xolarrin until the end of the series. Considering that it had never defeated any of the other houses or usurped their positions, it was never the first house.
-Was she helped, perhaps? I could see Gromph aiding her covertly, in that Quenthel would be much easier to manipulate than Triel.
It was noted in numerous instances that Gromph greatly preferred Triel to Quenthel. Also, judging from the events of WotSQ, Gromph would've found Quenthel more dangerous and difficult to work with.
Did you even read WotSQ at all?
The problem is, that first she was not Lolths Champion and betrayed Lolth (but ultimately was betrayed by Lolth and being only the tool to get the real Champion Wendonai in the right spot on the game board). The second problem is, besides Q'arlynd and some of the Eilistraeean High priestesses (like the dead Qilué) no one came to know who the Lady Penitent really was. ;) All who had known the truth are dead or now in the world above. And the rest thought of house melarn as one of the houses who brought the downfall of Ched Nasad, so I don't think that they would be cheered and welcomed in Menzo. Especially from Quenthel, who had known Halisstra as a traitor to Lolth and a weakling and pain in the ass.
Then there is the question how many drow know something about the LP? Even years after her return to Toril she was unkown to the drow killer lady and her people (have forgotten the name, Tarl or something like that). Then she startet a sect wich even not worshipped Lolth, so a sect of heretics, but also in a small part of drow culture. If she was intended as some drow hero, then Mrs. Smedman would surely have made this more clear, so she wrote her as a side event and as something clearly oposing Lolth. Nothing a real drow would like to have in his/her line of ancestors.
Heh. Bottom line is the designer who wrote that made no sense.
The problem is, that first she was not Lolths Champion and betrayed Lolth (but ultimately was betrayed by Lolth and being only the tool to get the real Champion Wendonai in the right spot on the game board).
First: Certain drow did believe she was Lloth’s Champion.
The second problem is, besides Q'arlynd and some of the Eilistraeean High priestesses (like the dead Qilué) no one came to know who the Lady Penitent really was. ;) All who had known the truth are dead or now in the world above.
Second: How hard is it to really find out who she was or what she was? You gonna tell me that when a small percent of the drow suddenly transform into dark elves that the drow priestesses aren’t going to start divining for the reasons?
And the rest thought of house melarn as one of the houses who brought the downfall of Ched Nasad, so I don't think that they would be cheered and welcomed in Menzo.
Is not Llloth’s creed that the weak shall be devoured?
Especially from Quenthel, who had known Halisstra as a traitor to Lolth and a weakling and pain in the ass.
And she had similar thoughts of Danifae—even up until she got munched on. Who is she to question Lloth if Lloth says Halisstra was my weapon?
Then there is the question how many drow know something about the LP? Even years after her return to Toril she was unkown to the drow killer lady and her people (have forgotten the name, Tarl or something like that). Then she startet a sect wich even not worshipped Lolth, so a sect of heretics, but also in a small part of drow culture. If she was intended as some drow hero, then Mrs. Smedman would surely have made this more clear, so she wrote her as a side event and as something clearly oposing Lolth. Nothing a real drow would like to have in his/her line of ancestors.
Answered in my first point.
Look, what the hell in 4e makes complete sense? I’m just saying that I can see a House Melarn rising easy enough. Not necessarily correct, but it is what it is.
Did you even read WotSQ at all?
Um…
Um…
Sweet, Bejebuz.
Heh. Bottom line is the designer who wrote that made no sense.
Do any of them right now?
The ruling houses were in the following order before the start of WotSQ: Baenre, Barrison Del'Armgo, Faen Tlabbar, Xolarrin, Agrach Dyrr, Mizzrym, Fey Branche, and Tuin'Tarl. I am not sure how Agrach Dyrr was the sixth house.
-Fifth House, then.
Also, after Agrach Dyrr betrayed the rest of the city, it was placed under heavy siege by Baenre and Xolarrin until the end of the series. Considering that it had never defeated any of the other houses or usurped their positions, it was never the first house.
-At the point in which Agrach Dyrr had the armies of the Sceptered Legion, and the Duergar of Grakulstauch (Sp?) backing them, and had the armies defending Menzoberranzan pushed against the proverbial wall, House Agrach Dyrr was in control of the city of Menzoberranzan, and thus, the most powerful house in the city, thus becoming it's first house, along with House Baenre, for the limited time in which is held the most power in the city.
-Thus, it fits with the definition of upstart, as the House came from a relatively lower position to, for a limited time, sit on the top.
-The definition of 'upstart' also includes, as an adjective, 'Suddenly raised to a position of consequence', and 'Self-important; presumptuous', both of which also describe the exploits of House Agrach Dyrr during this time period.
It was noted in numerous instances that Gromph greatly preferred Triel to Quenthel. Also, judging from the events of WotSQ, Gromph would've found Quenthel more dangerous and difficult to work with.
-And, in Drow society, this means...what? Nothing. Drow society is ever changing, and alliances and betrayals come and go like the wind.
Did you even read WotSQ at all?
-No, I just like making things up off the top of my head. Do you even know who you are talking to? Do I arbitrarily make things up, not having knowledge on the subject I am talking about?
-Thus, it fits with the definition of upstart, as the House came from a relatively lower position to, for a limited time, sit on the top.
-The definition of 'upstart' also includes, as an adjective, 'Suddenly raised to a position of consequence', and 'Self-important; presumptuous', both of which also describe the exploits of House Agrach Dyrr during this time period.
Glad you did so, ‘cause I was gonna correct you should you attempt to use that simple definition you used before, yet, again. ;)
-No, I just like making things up off the top of my head. Do you even know who you are talking to? Do I arbitrarily make things up, not having knowledge on the subject I am talking about?
You’re LK. You have it your way. Unlike the much loved BK, where we have it our way.
18DELTA ;)
Yes, she killed Triel. Considering that Quenthel's an idiot in WotSQ and Triel had been much smarter drow, it's goofy.
Yay I liked Quenthel
- she was my favorite in WOtSQ.
Pharaun FTW!!!
Yabber-dabber!!
Viagra.
18DELTA :P
Yay I liked Quenthel
Not bad, until she got "messed about somewhat" by the various authors for reasons of necessity. Much like Pharaun and Halisstra.
My first choices were and are Valas and Danifae. "Survival of the fittest" - as per Lolth dogma.
Would have to double-check, but methinks that House Agrach Dyrr was serving 100 years as a vassal to House Baenre, something which should be nearly over come 1480 DR, shouldn't it?
Upstart? Surely not. Veneration of Lady Penitent and thus a House (of rememberance) Melarn? For the love of Lolth, that had me in hysterics, it really did.
NB: Askani ... neat avatar pic!
-:D
18DELTA :P
Again. Making no sense.
And stop changin' your f*cking avatar before I bite your big toe and cripple you for life!
Freaky smiley freak freak freak! ! !
Would have to double-check, but methinks that House Agrach Dyrr was serving 100 years as a vassal to House Baenre, something which should be nearly over come 1480 DR, shouldn't it?
Upstart? Surely not. Veneration of Lady Penitent and thus a House (of rememberance) Melarn? For the love of Lolth, that had me in hysterics, it really did.
Yeah, that sounds familiar.
But upstart all the same.
'Upstart' implies a new, up-and-coming power. I think 'rebellious' would have been a MUCH better word to use in that excerpt.
As for the Melarn thing - Please... I try to blot that series out of my mind. I think the writers were more chaotic then Lolth by the end of that.
Not really - she is correct.
'Upstart' implies a new, up-and-coming power. I think 'rebellious' would have been a MUCH better word to use in that excerpt.
And Agrach Dyrr doesn't apply to that--being under supplication for so long?
As for the Melarn thing - Please... I try to blot that series out of my mind. I think the writers were more chaotic then Lolth by the end of that.
No sh*t? You know what it took for me to actualy buy those books?
They are what they are though.
And Agrach Dyrr doesn't apply to that--being under supplication for so long?
A supplication we have no word on, of course. Essentially, WotSQ ends - with regards to Menzoberranzan - and whoosh, we have 1480 DR and "FR Vault of the Drow - Mark II" 4E Menzo. Nigh everything could have happened to House Dyrr inbetween. If anything, it is a contentious bid of word-selection. But hey, if I read something like artillery and all on 4E FR chara descriptions, this is the least bone of contention.
A supplication we have no word on, of course. Essentially, WotSQ ends - with regards to Menzoberranzan - and whoosh, we have 1480 DR and "FR Vault of the Drow - Mark II" 4E Menzo. Nigh everything could have happened to House Dyrr inbetween. If anything, it is a contentious bid of word-selection. But hey, if I read something like artillery and all on 4E FR chara descriptions, this is the least bone of contention.
I'm talking concept--not reality. Nothing more.
No sh*t? You know what it took for me to actualy buy those books?
They are what they are though.
True that.
I struggled to finish the series (not that any one book was so bad, but each writer chose to present the characters differently - it was like reading about six different groups of Drow that just so happen to have the same names.)
Not bad, until she got "messed about somewhat" by the various authors for reasons of necessity. Much like Pharaun and Halisstra.
NB: Askani ... neat avatar pic!
Yeah they had too many writers doing the series as Quenthal felt inconsistent in a few of the books. Good to see she is still in power though.
One of the drow I couldn't stand was the main male drow wizard in the Lady Penitent series....forget his name...I just could not get into him and found him very annoying.
Thanks Zanan!
One of the drow I couldn't stand was the main male drow wizard in the Lady Penitent series....forget his name...I just could not get into him and found him very annoying.
-You must be talking about Q'Whatever. That's what I call him. ;)
-At the point in which Agrach Dyrr had the armies of the Sceptered Legion, and the Duergar of Grakulstauch (Sp?) backing them, and had the armies defending Menzoberranzan pushed against the proverbial wall, House Agrach Dyrr was in control of the city of Menzoberranzan, and thus, the most powerful house in the city, thus becoming it's first house, along with House Baenre, for the limited time in which is held the most power in the city.
The power of Agrach Dyrr had never overshadowed that of any of its preceding Houses.
-The definition of 'upstart' also includes, as an adjective, 'Suddenly raised to a position of consequence', and 'Self-important; presumptuous', both of which also describe the exploits of House Agrach Dyrr during this time period.
It had always been in a position of consequence, being a member of the ruling council.
-And, in Drow society, this means...what? Nothing. Drow society is ever changing, and alliances and betrayals come and go like the wind.
Despite this, there is still some rationality behind actions especially for one such as Gromph.
-No, I just like making things up off the top of my head. Do you even know who you are talking to? Do I arbitrarily make things up, not having knowledge on the subject I am talking about?
Maybe
-You must be talking about Q'Whatever. That's what I call him. ;)
Yeah him :P - for some reason I kept picturing him as a bumbling old human wizard with a beard when ever I was reading about him. He just didn't seem like a drow.
Yeah him :P - for some reason I kept picturing him as a bumbling old human wizard with a beard when ever I was reading about him. He just didn't seem like a drow.
Q'arlynd.
Surprisingly, I found him to be the most interesting in the trilogy--if nothing more than he wasn't dancing around naked with a sword throughout half the books.
Thank, Bejebuz.
Either way, I personally think Smedman is to blame for the major failures of both series. I've never been a fan of her high-on-the-instant-and-not-on-plot writing. Though, I must say that the Lady Penitent was probably the best work I've see out of her.
Q'arlynd.
Surprisingly, I found him to be the most interesting in the trilogy--if nothing more than he wasn't dancing around naked with a sword throughout half the books.
Thank, Bejebuz.
Either way, I personally think Smedman is to blame for the major failures of both series. I've never been a fan of her high-on-the-instant-and-not-on-plot writing. Though, I must say that the Lady Penitent was probably the best work I've see out of her.
It's part Lisa Smedman and part WotC. The latter constricted the trilogy into an idiotic massacre of drow deities and the former failed to execute the plot with an appreciable amount of common sense (i.e. High magic, Kiaransalee, Vhaeraun, Dark elves vs. drows).
Where's our JK Rowling (aka Elaine)?
It's part Lisa Smedman and part WotC. The latter constricted the trilogy into an idiotic massacre of drow deities and the former failed to execute the plot with an appreciable amount of common sense (i.e. High magic, Kiaransalee, Vhaeraun, Dark elves vs. drows).
Where's our JK Rowling (aka Elaine)?
Of course.
Though, if you are going to have a sava game for the drow, you might as well have all the gods play. At least that would explain why we got pawned off onto this condensed pantheon crap.
The power of Agrach Dyrr had never overshadowed that of any of its preceding Houses.
-Yes, yes it did. This is why House Agrach Dyrr, along with the Sceptered Legion and the Duergar army backing it, was able to temporarily take control of Menzoberranzan during the Silence of Lolth, and back the Baenres, and all of the other Drow houses into a corner.
It had always been in a position of consequence, being a member of the ruling council.
-Which doesn't negate the definition of 'upstart'.
Despite this, there is still some rationality behind actions especially for one such as Gromph.
-And, we don't know the circumstance behind why what happened happened.
Maybe
-Maybe? No.
-Yes, yes it did. This is why House Agrach Dyrr, along with the Sceptered Legion and the Duergar army backing it, was able to temporarily take control of Menzoberranzan during the Silence of Lolth, and back the Baenres, and all of the other Drow houses into a corner.
In case you aren't joking, Jaezred Chaulssin and allies had never taken control of the city. They had laid siege on multiple parts of the city including House Baenre and Arach Tinilith, but had never successfully penetrated deep. Also, since their victory outside of the city proper, House Agrach Dyrr had been under heavy siege. It had neither managed to hold a dominant position within the city itself nor usurp the positions of any other Houses.
-Which doesn't negate the definition of 'upstart'.
It does, because Agrach Dyrr had been an important part of the city's political landscape and their treachery in the war had never, even temporarily, managed to give them any sort of prestige over any other preceding Houses
-And, we don't know the circumstance behind why what happened happened.
The following is an excerpt from the upcoming 4e Underdark source book:
Since the Spellplague, Triel was under Sune's spell and fell in love with Richard, her gnome pastry chef, who was actually Hanali Celeni in disguise. One night, Gromph, her jealous incestous lover-brother, caught her in bed with the gnome and they quarrelled. By chance, Gromph figured that his sister is an alter-ego of Queen Amlauriel and so he casted a spell that sent Evermeet to Arborea which has the side effect of splitting Sos'Umptu into two drow males where one is now serving in House Melarn as a half-Shaun cocubine and the other baking foul-tasting cookies in Rashemen.
-Maybe? No.
Maybe.
Something thats been around a thousaand years just doesn't qualify.
Where's our JK Rowling (aka Elaine)?
Working for Paizo. :D
Sorry... couldn't resist. ;)
-Yes, yes it did. This is why House Agrach Dyrr, along with the Sceptered Legion and the Duergar army backing it, was able to temporarily take control of Menzoberranzan during the Silence of Lolth, and back the Baenres, and all of the other Drow houses into a corner.
Matter of factly, they did not. Neither taking control nor pushing the other houses into a corner. You see, there is a gross misconception that a drow city will simply fall if the priestesses cannot cast spells. Their magic helps, but when it comes to warfare - as it was in this case - the drow need/-ed no priestesses to save their skins. It didn't look too good, but hardly was House Dyrr in control of something other than their compound.
In case you aren't joking, Jaezred Chaulssin and allies had never taken control of the city. They had laid siege on multiple parts of the city including House Baenre and Arach Tinilith, but had never successfully penetrated deep. Also, since their victory outside of the city proper, House Agrach Dyrr had been under heavy siege. It had neither managed to hold a dominant position within the city itself nor usurp the positions of any other Houses.
-House Agrach Dyrr and her allies became the most powerful house in Menzoberranzan during their siege of the city, in which they backed all of the other houses into the corner.
It does, because Agrach Dyrr had been an important part of the city's political landscape and their treachery in the war had never, even temporarily, managed to give them any sort of prestige over any other preceding Houses.
-I believe you are doing what MT is doing. See my response to him below.
The following is an excerpt from the upcoming 4e Underdark source book:
Since the Spellplague, Triel was under Sune's and fell in love with Richard, her gnome pastry chef, who was actually Hanali Celeni in disguise. One night, her jealous incestous lover-brother caught her in bed with the gnome and they quarrelled. By chance, Gromph figured that his sister is an alter-ego of Queen Amlauriel and so he casted a spell that sent Evermeet to Arborea which has the side effect of splitting Sos'Umptu into two drow males where one is now serving in House Melarn as a half-Shaun cocubine and the other baking foul-tasting cookies in Rashemen.
Maybe.
-Ah ha. Now we all know what went down. Hmm...Yes, yes...Makes plenty of sense! Everything makes sense now!
Someone needs to look up the definition of 'Upstart'.
Something thats been around a thousaand years just doesn't qualify.
-Sure it does. You are internally adding the word 'young' to 'upstart', and forming 'young upstart' in your head.
You see, there is a gross misconception that a drow city will simply fall if the priestesses cannot cast spells.
:: Looks at Ched Nesad ::
-That fell both figuratively and literally.
The Duergar burned down a stone city.
Excuse me, whilst I pound my head against a wall for the next ten minutes...
I just looked up the definition of 'Upstart' -
Upstart: a gymnastic exercise performed starting from a position with the legs over the upper body and moving to an erect position by arching the back and swinging the legs out and down while forcing the chest upright.
You know... I think I find Drow females even more facinating now...
Yup...
The Duergar burned down a stone city.
Excuse me, whilst I pound my head against a wall for the next tren minutes...
I just looked up the definition of 'Upstart' -
..
You know... I think I find Drow females even more facinating now...
More...
...gymnasts...
...girl...people...things....
Yup...
The Duergar burned down a stone city.
Excuse me, whilst I pound my head against a wall for the next tren minutes...
-Stonefire...Very potent stuff.
-House Agrach Dyrr and her allies became the most powerful house in Menzoberranzan during their siege of the city, in which they backed all of the other houses into the corner.
We aren't interested in your home-brew version of WotSQ.
-Ah ha. Now we all know what went down. Hmm...Yes, yes...Makes plenty of sense! Everything makes sense now!
Indeed. It makes as much sense as any other 4e plot. Simply unimaginable turn of events.
-Sure it does. You are internally adding the word 'young' to 'upstart', and forming 'young upstart' in your head.
You are fighting for a lost cause. The term 'upstart' has to do with a 'sudden' or 'recent' rise to power and there are two things that disqualifies such description of Agrach Dyrr:
(1) Its rise to 'power' occurred very long ago and predated the existence of most Houses.
(2) The power of Agrach Dyrr had never waxed during the events of WotSQ. If anything, they had dwindled significantly starting at their betrayal of the city.
Yup...
The Duergar burned down a stone city.
Excuse me, whilst I pound my head against a wall for the next tren minutes...
I just looked up the definition of 'Upstart' -
You know... I think I find Drow females even more facinating now...
Perhaps the 4e Underdark section of Menzoberranzan would retcon Agrach Dyrr as a House of veteran gymnists which the Baenre females had fetishes for (and thus overlooked the importance of Barrison Del'Armgo for a time).
And I'll be dating myself with this reference...
Anyone see Bladerunner?
Remember the psycho-killer gymnast Daryl Hannah played?
I think her character from that movie would make an incredible group of female Drow acrobat/assassins! :D
You are fighting for a lost cause. The term 'upstart' has to do with a 'sudden' or 'recent' rise to power and there are two things that disqualifies such description of Agrach Dyrr:
(1) Its rise to 'power' occurred very long ago and predated the existence of most Houses.
(2) The power of Agrach Dyrr had never waxed during the events of WotSQ. If anything, they had dwindled significantly starting at their betrayal of the city.
Um...was I the only one that read tWotSQ?
Granted, I tend to forget a lot of sh*t these days, but the house of Agrach Dyrr was definitely an UPSTART. They came out of nowhere and unsuspected.
In your words, they came, more or less, "sudden" into their power.
You Know...
And I'll be dating myself with this reference...
Anyone see Bladerunner?
Remember the psycho-killer gymnast Daryl Hannah played?
I think her character from that movie would make an incredible group of female Drow acrobat/assassins! :D
Good Bejebuz, man!! Daryl was hot right up untilI saw that. Get a grip and keep the cinema to 1990 and beyond.
you know what, here is a thought for you.
what if what you think is Q. Beanre, is actually Matron Baenre returned to youth and life or forced into Q.'s body during the issue with Lireal.
or Gromph got himself turned into a dark elf and left along with the other diviners. thus Triel had no divinational warning on the New Matron Beanre.
inteligent she may have been, but not smart enough to escape her death
so Q. Beanre killed T. Beanre....
you know what, here is a thought for you.
what if what you think is Q. Beanre, is actually Matron Baenre returned to youth and life or forced into Q.'s body during the issue with Lireal.
or Gromph got himself turned into a dark elf and left along with the other diviners. thus Triel had no divinational warning on the New Matron Beanre.
inteligent she may have been, but not smart enough to escape her death
Out.
Out!!
What's wrong with you?! Don't start stupid rumors!!!
What's wrong with you?! Don't start stupid rumors!!!
life in general
Um...was I the only one that read tWotSQ?
Granted, I tend to forget a lot of sh*t these days, but the house of Agrach Dyrr was definitely an UPSTART. They came out of nowhere and unsuspected.
In your words, they came, more or less, "sudden" into their power.
You apparently did not read WotSQ or Siege of Darkness in a detailed manner, if you are to think Agrach Dyrr came out of nowhere. FYI, read pg. 74-75 of Annihalation.
I certainly hope people do know what they are talking about...
I certainly hope people do know what they are talking about...
-Huh? Around here NEVER! :P
18DELTA ;)
That Lich was more powerful then Gromph, the head of the Magical Academy - Gromph only won because of his wits and a desperation tactic (that almost failed once again, had he not recovered the phylactory).
Good Bejebuz, man!! Daryl was hot right up untilI saw that. Get a grip and keep the cinema to 1990 and beyond.
Hot?
Just not seeing it, dude.
Daryl Hannah - then and now.
It was an old powerful house that made a decisive move when it saw the opportunity.
-This is the definition of 'upstart'!: Suddenly raised to a position of consequence (consequence, which is a relative term, the position that the House took for the time being more consequential than the position it had been sitting at)
Can't see something that has been on the ruling council for a thousand years being an upstart, but whatever...
-Why not? I know you were in the construction business. Would you consider a former employee who was in the business with you for years as a lower level guy, who suddenly branches out and forms his own company that is in direct competition with you an upstart?
-As I said before, you are internally adding the word 'young' in front of 'upstart'. A 'young upstart' is probably the most common way of using the word, but it isn't in the definition.
They work harder, and don't try to steal all your customers. :P
So are you calling Paizo an Upstart? :D
Anyhow, I still think 'rebellious' would have been a better word to use, considering all the cotroversy that word is causing.
I didn't have employees - except for my son temporarily - I used Mexicans.
They work harder, and don't try to steal all your customers. :P
-Ah, well...There goes that analogy. :raincloud
-And, I'm sure you made sure they all had their papers...
So are you calling Paizo an Upstart? :D
-Yes, Paizo would indeed be an upstart.
-This is the definition of 'upstart'!: Suddenly raised to a position of consequence (consequence, which is a relative term, the position that the House took for the time being more consequential than the position it had been sitting at)
Instead of trying to stretch things to cover up a slip, you should just get over it.
Sheeesh...
-Why not? I know you were in the construction business. Would you consider a former employee who was in the business with you for years as a lower level guy, who suddenly branches out and forms his own company that is in direct competition with you an upstart?
If Baenre is a company, then Agrach Dyrr:
(1) Is not an employee of Baenre.
(2) Is its own company and a powerful and consequential business partner of Baenre
If Baenre is a company, then Agrach Dyrr:
(2) Is its own company and a powerful and consequential business partner of Baenre
-And, if they suddenly went into direct competition for customers against the Baenre Corporation, when they previously did not engage in direct competition against the Baenre Corporation, because they saw the Baenre Corporation as the obvious leaders of the industry, as was the case in the books, they are upstarts.
Instead of trying to stretch things to cover up a slip, you should just get over it.
-The definition of 'upstart' is quite clear, and clearly fits with the situation at hand. That you refuse to accept that is not my problem. I'm not even going to bother with you on this topic anymore.
-The definition of 'upstart' is quite clear, and clearly fits with the situation at hand. That you refuse to accept that is not my problem.
The point made by myself and several others is rather clear. If you choose to ignore our reasoning, then it's fine.
I'm not even going to bother with you on this topic anymore.
Likewise.
Let it go, already.
Why don't we just go back to that Gymnastics definition?
You gotta admit, it WAS funnier. :P
-Stonefire...Very potent stuff.
And nothing the priestesses (of any cult / anywhere) could do something about. BTW, it were priestesses who invited them into the first place, these few hundred duergar fire throwing fighters. A city that was in turmoil anyway. In any case, war-magics are primarily (if note solely) the field of arcane casters.
And nothing the priestesses (of any cult / anywhere) could do something about. BTW, it were priestesses who invited them into the first place, these few hundred duergar fire throwing fighters. A city that was in turmoil anyway. In any case, war-magics are primarily (if note solely) the field of arcane casters.
And the giant spiders summoned by those idiot Matron Mothers.
In other words, the priestesses destroyed themselves.
You apparently did not read WotSQ or Siege of Darkness in a detailed manner, if you are to think Agrach Dyrr came out of nowhere. FYI, read pg. 74-75 of Annihalation.
I certainly hope people do know what they are talking about...
No. I just skimmed through them for the fun of it and proclaimed myself Master of Drow Lore.
My argument for them being an upstart comes not from the fact that they weren’t on the scene, came out of nowhere, or had no substantial power to begin with. It comes with the fact that they tried to rise up and rival/dominate the players at the top of the food chain.
As Karsus has continually pointed out, you associate the word “upstart” with the concept of someone/something young and/or unknown. But, in actuality, the reason behind them being an upstart house is that they suddenly jumped from a seemingly subdued status as a lower house to top dog overnight.
I would also point out that the general perception of an upstart is someone that has powerful backing and/or clout that the individual may not have themselves. One that I think fits Agrach Dyrr aptly.
Hot?
Just not seeing it, dude.
Well, I would reply with pictures of my own, but this is evidently a G Rated board.
I’ll grant you that “hot” isn’t the word. But, dear Bejebuz, that pic was scary.
I didn't have employees - except for my son temporarily - I used Mexicans.
They work harder, and don't try to steal all your customers. :P
So are you calling Paizo an Upstart? :D
Anyhow, I still think 'rebellious' would have been a better word to use, considering all the cotroversy that word is causing.
For drow, anyone newer than you at your level is an upstart, while anyone older than you is a relic.
No. I just skimmed through them for the fun of it and proclaimed myself Master of Drow Lore.
Obviously.
My argument for them being an upstart comes not from the fact that they weren’t on the scene, came out of nowhere, or had no substantial power to begin with. It comes with the fact that they tried to rise up and rival/dominate the players at the top of the food chain.
As Karsus has continually pointed out, you associate the word “upstart” with the concept of someone/something young and/or unknown. But, in actuality, the reason behind them being an upstart house is that they suddenly jumped from a seemingly subdued status as a lower house to top dog overnight.
Actually, you had committed the same errors as Lord Karsus.
As noted repeatedly by us, Agrach Dyrr did not *suddenly* jump from a seemingly subdued status as a lower house to top dog overnight. It was already one of the most powerful houses in the city for a *very long time*. At the same time, it had never ever come close to controlling the city. Thus if you are to say 'the reason behind them being an upstart house is that they suddenly jumped from a seemingly subdued status as a lower house to top dog overnight', then you are totally wrong.
I would also point out that the general perception of an upstart is someone that has powerful backing and/or clout that the individual may not have themselves. One that I think fits Agrach Dyrr aptly.
Not part of the dictionary definition.
*yawn*
Obviously.
You’re right. Did the same damn thing with the bible and got screwed by it.
Actually, you had committed the same errors as Lord Karsus.
As noted repeatedly by us, Agrach Dyrr did not *suddenly* jump from a seemingly subdued status as a lower house to top dog overnight. It was already one of the most powerful houses in the city for a *very long time*. At the same time, it had never ever come close to controlling the city. Thus if you are to say 'the reason behind them being an upstart house is that they suddenly jumped from a seemingly subdued status as a lower house to top dog overnight', then you are totally wrong.
And did you read anything I wrote?
Not to mention, that after all your bravo, you give us this?
Not part of the dictionary definition.
*yawn*
That's a sad rebuttal.
Look, man—I certainly wasn’t trying to be a dick. Lets not forget that before things go loopy.
I simply disagree.
Completely.
Geez... I didn't think there was anyone worse them me....
And yes, that was off-topic, so now I'll have to report myself...
Please refrain from personal attacks and flaming, these are violations of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
Okay, just delete whatever post you like and prevent me from PMing the moderators. I'd have to admit it is a rather fascinating instance of one-way communication. Furthermore, It does prevent a lot of disputes if only one person can talk in a conversation. A simply brilliant idea.
Anyway, what I said to JudgeDookie in the post was roughly about how I felt about people who are relentless in advocating false notions.
And the giant spiders summoned by those idiot Matron Mothers.
In other words, the priestesses destroyed themselves.
Well, no. There were not idiot matrons. These jade spiders had been around for ages and guarded the city gates and all. That they went amok was no fault of the priestesses, as you should know. Just part and parcel of magical warfare.
Scrabble, we'll just call it a day and leave things as is. No sense it getting Wiz_O's all P.O.ed and such.
Dookie - clear your PMs!!!
Geez... I didn't think there was anyone worse them me....
And yes, that was off-topic, so now I'll have to report myself...
Done deal. Sorry, dude--I wasn't even paying attention to what I had stuffed in there.