Heard he had a bumpin' party with some monkey's though.
So what exactly did the big guy gain from absorbing the divine power of Mask (which was actually just a piece of Shar's); and what did it do for his standing in the Hells?
-As JD said, we haven't been told anything. So, anything we say is speculation. Presumably, though, it made him stronger. Mephistopheles doesn't like Asmodeus, and the feeling is mutual. Mephistopheles wants to eventually overthrow Asmodeus. Anything that augments his strength takes him closer to that goal.
-Divinity, even little slivers of it, isn't something to be taken lightly. It isn't something easily come by, either.
:pSo what exactly did the big guy gain from absorbing the divine power of Mask (which was actually just a piece of Shar's); and what did it do for his standing in the Hells?
Presumably nothing or not much, since Asmodeus wouldn't tolerate a second deity in Hell. Although, of course, this would be heavily illogical since Asmodeus gained divinity upon killing Azuth. Not that WotC would care... or even notice...
Presumably nothing or not much, since Asmodeus wouldn't tolerate a second deity in Hell. Although, of course, this would be heavily illogical since Asmodeus gained divinity upon killing Azuth. Not that WotC would care... or even notice...
-Asmodeus simply consuming Azuth, as opposed to holding him as a bargaining chip, or something else to that effect, is telling, I think, to how much Mephistopheles' power increased. Mephistopheles, in absorbing more power, probably "closed the gap" sufficiently, that Asmodeus felt that absorbing Azuth's power was the best choice, as opposed to keeping him hostage and gaining whatever benefits that would bring him.
When/where did this happen?
-The matter with Mephistopheles in 1,374 DR. The eating of Azuth by Asmodeus sometime after 1,385 DR, but before 1,479 DR. I don't remember there having an exact date given as of yet.
-The matter with Mephistopheles in 1,374 DR. The eating of Azuth by Asmodeus sometime after 1,385 DR, but before 1,479 DR. I don't remember there having an exact date given as of yet.
Source?
Source?
-The part with Mephistopheles is the Twilight War trilogy, and the part with Asmodeus is in the FRCG.
So which is it?1.[spoiler] Did Shar absorb Mask back into herself as stated in the "Well...Thenwhat happened to Mask? Thread[/spoiler/]
Or
2.[spoiler] Did Mephistopholes absorb him ask stated in this thread?[/spoiler/]
This dual answer is enough to make someone
1.[spoiler] Did Shar absorb Mask back into herself as stated in the "Well...Thenwhat happened to Mask? Thread[/spoiler/]
Or
2.[spoiler] Did Mephistopholes absorb him ask stated in this thread?[/spoiler/]
This dual answer is enough to make someone
Shar absorbed Mask, revealing that Mask was actually just a herald of Shar, spawned from her godly essence. In the novel, Mask says something along the lines of not wanting to call her "mother", hinting at his origin.
Having served his purpose (the long story unfolds in the novels) Shar reclaims her power from him.
Meph's an entirely different story...
In a nutshell, Erevis Cale killed a villian who possessed a divine spark of Mask, and thus claimed that divine power. Due to a bargin struck with Meph's, Cale allowed Meph's to take his life & absorb that divine spark.
All in all, we are left with the doosey of Mask being just a creation of Shar to bring about certain schemes of hers. During the years, Mask had imparted his divine power into certain "Chosen". In the end Meph claimed a bit of that power, while one chosen of Mask (which I guess is really a form of Shar's power) remains, and Shar reclaimed the rest.
All in all, we are left with the doosey of Mask being just a creation of Shar to bring about certain schemes of hers. During the years, Mask had imparted his divine power into certain "Chosen". In the end Meph claimed a bit of that power, while one chosen of Mask (which I guess is really a form of Shar's power) remains, and Shar reclaimed the rest.
Well Rivalen still has his divine spark along with Riven. The Sliver of Divinity from Kesson Rel was retreived and seperated into three pieces for Cale, Riven, and Rivalen. Cale died to give his to Mephistopheles, Rivalen has become a secluded but powerful Chosen of Shar, and Riven is biding his time until the next coming comes...
Shar absorbed Mask, revealing that Mask was actually just a herald of Shar, spawned from her godly essence. In the novel, Mask says something along the lines of not wanting to call her "mother", hinting at his origin.
Having served his purpose (the long story unfolds in the novels) Shar reclaims her power from him.
Meph's an entirely different story...
In a nutshell, Erevis Cale killed a villian who possessed a divine spark of Mask, and thus claimed that divine power. Due to a bargin struck with Meph's, Cale allowed Meph's to take his life & absorb that divine spark.
All in all, we are left with the doosey of Mask being just a creation of Shar to bring about certain schemes of hers. During the years, Mask had imparted his divine power into certain "Chosen". In the end Meph claimed a bit of that power, while one chosen of Mask (which I guess is really a form of Shar's power) remains, and Shar reclaimed the rest.
Thanks for the clarification! :D
...and Riven is biding his time until the next coming comes...
-His is the most intriguing part of the theoretical puzzle.
... the part with Asmodeus is in the FRCG.
I'll be a son of Bejebuz!
Pimp slaping Mephistopheles with such ease is something a full fledged intermediate deity might be hard pressed to do, a thrid-quasigod should have been paralyzed by Mephi's power for just trying to raise his hand against him.
If Mephi can be beaten up by third-quasigod, a demigod would accidently slay him just by sneezing in his direction.
Pimp slaping Mephistopheles with such ease is something a full fledged intermediate deity might be hard pressed to do, a thrid-quasigod should have been paralyzed by Mephi's power for just trying to raise his hand against him.
If Mephi can be beaten up by third-quasigod, a demigod would accidently slay him just by sneezing in his direction.
-How do you think I felt when Lord Shadow, Hadrhune, Brennus, and the other assorted assembled magi did so? At least, with Cale & Co., they had slivers of divinity in them.
Well Rivalen still has his divine spark along with Riven. The Sliver of Divinity from Kesson Rel was retreived and seperated into three pieces for Cale, Riven, and Rivalen. Cale died to give his to Mephistopheles, Rivalen has become a secluded but powerful Chosen of Shar, and Riven is biding his time until the next coming comes...
I thought that's what I said?
And as for the case concerning what Riven does to Mephistopheles.. Well that was just a well written smack down that needed to happen. Over the course of my time on the boards my view point concerning whatever happens in books and how it should or has to be explained in a gaming stand point has shifted towards what an author should write to make the most of a good story and what a gamer know is possible in the strict guidlines of the game. Alot of the stories wouldn't be all that good if Kemp hadn't been allowed to let Riven beat the evalivin' out of Old Lord of the Eighth. With out it you don't feel half as justified for what Cale sacrificed as before. Atleast you get a tad bit of closure knowing that vengence isn't a far off ideal.
Well Shar doesn't have all of it. I mean Rivelan has a portion but as he is one of her Chosen then it's safe to assume that she can retreive it when ever she likes.
Which makes you wonder why Riven can retain the same power.
Secret strategy or stolen divinity?
Besides if we are expecting Riven to guide the new God of Thieves to deification then we must assume he's got to be uber powerful. Otherwise Shar would just smash him on a whim.
And as for the case concerning what Riven does to Mephistopheles.. Well that was just a well written smack down that needed to happen. Over the course of my time on the boards my view point concerning whatever happens in books and how it should or has to be explained in a gaming stand point has shifted towards what an author should write to make the most of a good story and what a gamer know is possible in the strict guidlines of the game. Alot of the stories wouldn't be all that good if Kemp hadn't been allowed to let Riven beat the evalivin' out of Old Lord of the Eighth. With out it you don't feel half as justified for what Cale sacrificed as before. Atleast you get a tad bit of closure knowing that vengence isn't a far off ideal.
-I agree with the sentiment, to a degree. Certain things however, "even for the sake of the story", or even in the context of the story, don't fly. In the context of the story, Mephistopheles is billed as a "super powerful Archdevil". Having the people smack him up a bit still doesn't fit well.
but the author used 3e cosmology where Meph's CR is around 30, so it's BoVD or PGtF's fault
Are they TRYING to make things even worse?
Are they TRYING to make things even worse?
*Cough4eCough*
Just remember..
It's all.. part.. of the plan...
I thought we were just 'embracing Chaos' these days.
*:coolcthul
Mystra: died raised died ascended died again
Myrkul:dead
Mask:dissolved
Moander: dead
Mrtyl:absconded Judge's whiskey and is missing
Meph's: absorbs part of Mask but yet plays second fiddle to Asmodeus who basically did the same thing;)
And let's not froget Wotc's love of gods/devil's with the letter "A"
AO: Supreme Overlord
Aumanator: God of beginnings Dawn etc
Asmodeus: supreme ruler of the nine hells now a greater god of evil. Why? You guessed it he "ate" a minor Deity who's name began with an "A"(Azuth).
There's your great plan MT;)
Meph, I hope your paying attention either change your name to one that begin's with "A" or consume/defeat/destroy a deity/demi-deity/exarch to gain divinity. Pssst I hear "A"rtus Cimber is running around somewhere
Forgive me I get sometimes;)... and that was core world gods I thought. Does that even float in FR?
And Markus, I'm pretty sure the plan is to gather as much data from the 4e experiment to create 4.5!!! hahahahaa:P
What's with Wotc and Deites with names that begin the Letter "M"
-It flows off the tongue good, I guess.
-Ask MT about WotC's obsession with things that sound like "S-H-A-R".
Although I do not plan on switching to 4e, morbid curiosity makes me want to read up on how Asmodeus "ate" Azuth's soul or whatever, and became a true god...
-Nothing much is said in the FRCG. It is said that it happened, and that's that.
Is Asmodeus listed as a true god in the new FRCS?
Yes, he is a greater deity now.
Edit: Which is one of the things about 4E FR that I like btw, Asmodeus is cool.
Is Asmodeus listed as a true god in the new FRCS?
-Yes. He's part of the "Faerûnian Pantheon" now.
-He's been on-again, off-again a deity for a long, long time now. I know I prefer Asmodeus to not being a deity, and staying a "simple" Archdevil as strong as a Greater Deity. Not everything that is powerful has to be a deity.
There's your great plan MT
OMG!
:OMG!
And 'A' and 'M' are the first two letters of 'Amen'... it's true!!!
WotC designers do worship Satan and eat un-baptized babies!
-Ask MT about WotC's obsession with things that sound like "S-H-A-R".
Don't even get me started...
I think the last time we made a list, we had something like 37 uses of the word 'Shar' or Shaar'.
Yes, he is a greater deity now.
Edit: Which is one of the things about 4E FR that I like btw, Asmodeus is cool.
just as god is boring
I like the previous version, where no one knows his true nature and origin and there are multiple contradictory myths
I like the previous version, where no one knows his true nature and origin and there are multiple contradictory myths
Seconded.
I still don't quite get why Asmodeus would want to handicap himself by becoming a god(what with all the rules and constraints that come with the position).
I still don't quite get why Asmodeus would want to handicap himself by becoming a god(what with all the rules and constraints that come with the position).
-Because the designers wanted him to be. Some things just can't be properly/fully explained in-game.
Show
The fight between Riven and Meph makes perfect sense to me.
Look at it like this:
Riven performed a sneak attack. Jumped from the prime plane to Meph's plane and initiated combat. Meph doesn't get an action in that round because he's surprised.
Round ends, free social actions are abound "Hey, you killed him!", "Heh, you'll be back for his body", "Hey, i'm going to kill you anytime i find you on the prime plane"
Second round starts. Meph being on his home plane begins to reign ALL that damage that Riven delivered in his surprise attack.
Riven says "Screw this" and jumps back to the Prime plane
Meph proceeds to gloat.
It's not that Riven beat Meph in a fight; it's more that Riven got the upper hand on the first round of combat and decided to leave the fight before Meph got the upper hand on EVERY OTHER ROUND of combat.
The fight between Riven and Meph makes perfect sense to me.
Look at it like this:
Riven performed a sneak attack. Jumped from the prime plane to Meph's plane and initiated combat. Meph doesn't get an action in that round because he's surprised.
Round ends, free social actions are abound "Hey, you killed him!", "Heh, you'll be back for his body", "Hey, i'm going to kill you anytime i find you on the prime plane"
Second round starts. Meph being on his home plane begins to reign ALL that damage that Riven delivered in his surprise attack.
Riven says "Screw this" and jumps back to the Prime plane
Meph proceeds to gloat.
It's not that Riven beat Meph in a fight; it's more that Riven got the upper hand on the first round of combat and decided to leave the fight before Meph got the upper hand on EVERY OTHER ROUND of combat.
I still don't quite get why Asmodeus would want to handicap himself by becoming a god(what with all the rules and constraints that come with the position).
Those rules don't exist anymore in 4e, apparently :P
They always were, to some degree, but now they are being purposely blurred so that designers/authors/DMs can spin stuff however they want.
At what point is a mortal hero - worshipped by thousands - becoming a 'demi-god (Exarch in 4e)? What does a demi-power need to do to become a lesser-god? Where do Fiends and Celestials fit into all of this? Shouldn't they be of the 'demi-god (Exarch) level? And how much real control does an 'Overgod' have over the gods of his sphere? What about the Multi-spheric ones?
You see what I mean - 2e did a bang-up job trying toi explain all that, but it was never perfect, and now they are moving away from explanations altogether.
From all appearances, EVERYONE (mortal, Fiend, Exarch, God, etc, etc...) are contantly 'moving-up' the cosmic ladder, or down, if they run into any set-backs.
PCs are just a 'Pupal Stage' (as are all mortals, I suppose), and there are various paths to 'greatness', but the end result is to go from being a mere 'player', to being one of the 'movers & shakers'.
Its always been that way, but now the rules are designed with specific paths in mind - the game has actual goals now, whereas before they were abstract.
At what point is a mortal hero - worshipped by thousands - becoming a 'demi-god (Exarch in 4e)? What does a demi-power need to do to become a lesser-god? Where do Fiends and Celestials fit into all of this? Shouldn't they be of the 'demi-god (Exarch) level? And how much real control does an 'Overgod' have over the gods of his sphere? What about the Multi-spheric ones?
From all appearances, EVERYONE (mortal, Fiend, Exarch, God, etc, etc...) are contantly 'moving-up' the cosmic ladder, or down, if they run into any set-backs.
PCs are just a 'Pupal Stage' (as are all mortals, I suppose), and there are various paths to 'greatness', but the end result is to go from being a mere 'player', to being one of the 'movers & shakers'.
Its always been that way, but now the rules are designed with specific paths in mind - the game has actual goals now, whereas before they were abstract.
Well, to summarize it, PCs are PCs and anything that's not a PC is a monster (be it deity, celestial, fiend, vermin...). And finally, when the PCs reach lvl 30 they become monsters, too.
If you look for an explanation you could as well look for more fluff in future sourcebooks. :P
I didn't think of this, and I'm not sure if thats where you were going, but you know what would be kinda-cool in an egotistical way?
If the 'end goal' of the LFR campaigns was to get your PC to 30, and then you can't play him anymore, and WotC puts him 'into' the setting officially, as a statted-out monster. :D
Now that is INTERSTING...
I didn't think of this, and I'm not sure if thats where you were going, but you know what would be kinda-cool in an egotistical way?
If the 'end goal' of the LFR campaigns was to get your PC to 30, and then you can't play him anymore, and WotC puts him 'into' the setting officially, as a statted-out monster. :D
:D
This reminds me of 4e's OSL or GSL or whatever. Along the lines of 'If we (WotC) like your idea, we can steal it, and you will thank us for doing so.'
That ones still good for a laugh.... :D
Plenty of things could have happened to him I suppose. With Asmodeus ending the Blood War, Gargauth may no longer have been needed on the Material Plane. Asmodeus might have killed him or rescinded his ban and allowed him to return to the Nine Hells. I suppose he could be an exarch to Asmodeus, but his name is entirely absent from the 4e FR campaign setting book. If he were back in the Hells, it might make for some interesting politics between him, Meph and Azzy. Especially if Gargauth retains any of his divine rank.
Gargauth's divine domain used to be located in the Material Plane (not the Astral) and may have been located in the cave where he was discovered beneath Peleveran, in the Shaar, near where the Shaar river fell from the Landrise. But if so, then that location clearly fell deep into the Underchasm when the Rift formed in the Shaar. If Gargauth were "home" during that event, it might have killed him. Can a god (of demigod rank) be slain by dropping a continent on him? Perhaps he survived in some fashion and persists far below. Or maybe he lays buried waiting to be dug up some day...
I would be curious to see if his body floats in the Astral plane. In fact, I would be curious to see a survey of god bodies in the Astral, and wonder how many new ones have sprung up in the past century.
That said, is Asmodeus still head honcho in Hell? Do all the devils worshiping him count towards his godly powerbase; and if yes, wouldn't that make him the most powerful god EVER?
There are so many more questions to ask...
Let's begin....
I find myself curious as to what happened to Gargauth. He is not mentioned since Uktar 1374 in the Grand History.
-In the past, Rich Baker has said that any deities that aren't listed as deities (or Exarches, or whatever else) in the FRCG, there's a reason for that, and that they are, in all likelihood, dead. So, that doesn't bode too well for Gargauth.
I think its more like they only listed the ones they themselves knew about, and didn't bother with the hundreds of others they new nothing aout (and didn't care to).
-I can agree with the part about listing only the ones that they cared about listing for story/setting reasons, but not about not listing specific deities because of ignorance about their existence.
Mrtyl:absconded Judge's whiskey and is missing
Greatest 4e CENSORED ever CENSORED CENSORED!!
OMG!
:OMG!
And 'A' and 'M' are the first two letters of 'Amen'... it's true!!!
WotC designers do worship Satan and eat un-baptized babies!
Don't even get me started...
I think the last time we made a list, we had something like 37 uses of the word 'Shar' or Shaar'.
You simply need help. Again: 877-965-6836
My shrink.
At what point is a mortal hero - worshipped by thousands - becoming a 'demi-god (Exarch in 4e)? What does a demi-power need to do to become a lesser-god? Where do Fiends and Celestials fit into all of this? Shouldn't they be of the 'demi-god (Exarch) level? And how much real control does an 'Overgod' have over the gods of his sphere? What about the Multi-spheric ones?
Hater of Gods to begin with! Shut up!
I slapped him at a house party and we haven't been friends since.
What a dork.
That's Number 4 from the movie Multiplicity doing a yeager bomb silly billyEvidently there were actually four Derrik's and it wasn't just my vision?
Gug.
I slapped and CENSORED off all four?
Uh-oh....
--
As to MT's point, they have made it a point that their are "numerous" other gods within the FRCG that are not listed.
Regardless, seeking old hard line rules, very few would actually be completely "dead" to begin with. And, as we have no concrete changes in such rules, they can not be considered completely wiped off the map.