Thanks in advance everyone. I haven't been here too long but you are all very helpful.
I just got the edition 3 FRCS in the mail today. I like it alot, though some of the edition 3 rules I don't exactly follow, not knowing those rules. In the back it had a paragraph about Maztica. Where can I find more information about Maztica?
Thanks in advance everyone. I haven't been here too long but you are all very helpful.
The Maztica boxed set, written during the 2e Era.
An electronic document version may be available for sale on RPGNow.com or DriveThruRPG.com
By look at I mean download..
If you look in the older editions section of wizards, I believe you can look at the entire boxed set.
By look at I mean download..
Indeed you can.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/tsr1066.zip
Then there are some infos in the Lands of Intrigue, Book II, also available:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr1159.zip
Finally there are some 2Ed Adventures:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/tsr9333.zip
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/tsr9340.zip
-Note that Maztica is gone now, replaced by another landmass during the Spellplague.
Is that good or bad?
-Note that Maztica is gone now, replaced by another landmass during the Spellplague.
True, although that's not to say that the player's will never find their way to Maztica.
Is that good or bad?
depends on who you ask and if you intended to use it somehow. :embarrass
I don't like it to be simply taken away, it was some spice into the background of Amn and the things happening there. Now it's simply away and so far I read about Amn nothing changend in the country, but the gold they got from there and the other things were source for most of the power of the ruling council in Amn and also important for many of the merchant houses. If all this suddenly disappears, there should be more changing for this country.
As i remember it was also important for the Flaming Fist and their financies. Don't know if they are still around in 4Ed.
depends on who you ask and if you intended to use it somehow. :embarrass
I don't like it to be simply taken away, it was some spice into the background of Amn and the things happening there. Now it's simply away and so far I read about Amn nothing changend in the country, but the gold they got from there and the other things were source for most of the power of the ruling council in Amn and also important for many of the merchant houses. If all this suddenly disappears, there should be more changing for this country.
As i remember it was also important for the Flaming Fist and their financies. Don't know if they are still around in 4Ed.
Mmm. Bad.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads
-zuzu
Is that good or bad?
-It is both good, and bad, and not good and bad, all at the same time. Very paradoxical, and yet, it is.
Now it's simply away and so far I read about Amn nothing changed in the country, but the gold they got from there and the other things were source for most of the power of the ruling council in Amn and also important for many of the merchant houses. If all this suddenly disappears, there should be more changing for this country.
They diverted their attention and capital to Chult is my understanding. It makes sense that after a good 100 years Amn's nobility and ruling merchant houses would have things under control.
Right after the Spellplague it must have been a serious setback though...
Mmm. Bad.
Good.
Maztica was a terrible product line. The less said of it the better.
On the other hand, if you are a fanboi, it's likely that the actual continent is still around--it's just been transplanted to Abeir.:D
Good.
Maztica was a terrible product line. The less said of it the better.
On the other hand, if you are a fanboi, it's likely that the actual continent is still around--it's just been transplanted to Abeir.:D
-Maztica wasn't terrible as much as it justs didn't fit. It wasn't Forgotten Realmsian. But, at the same time, Returned 'Abeir' is in the same boat. It isn't Forgotten Realmsian. So, six of one thing, half-a-dozen of another. With time, Maztica could have become more Realmsian, just like Returned 'Abeir' can, in theory.
On the other hand, Returned Abeir is worse. Not only is it ill-conceived (what? The poeople who live there called it Returned Abeir?!), but it serves absolutely no IG purpose that can be had elsewhere in the Realms already. The designers went out of their way to remove everything that they felt was derivitive and redundant in the setting... and then went ahead and created an unneccessary continent that is useless to a DM, except as a seperate campaign area... in which case, it should have been a seperate setting.
The 4e Realms is a perfect example of trying to do too much with too little , or in other words "too many cooks spoiled the broth".
Maztica was bad, but Abeir is badder...
and 5e will probably replace it with the badderest of them all. :P
(what? The poeople who live there called it Returned Abeir?!)...
-Apparently. Ed Greenwood said that, were he to give it a name, he's call it "Laothkond", or something to that effect.
On the other hand, if you are a fanboi, it's likely that the actual continent is still around--it's just been transplanted to Abeir.:D
I didn't realize Abeir was missing.
As with everything, I'll wait until 2010 to see what 4e have done to my world commercially.
Why not give it another year or two and wait for 5e? :P
-Apparently. Ed Greenwood said that, were he to give it a name, he's call it "Laothkond", or something to that effect.
Yes... I know... I'm the one who provided that link...
My point was that we HAD to ask Ed, and even Rich Baker thought it odd that no mention of a name for the 'New Continent' ever came up in the sourcbook that introduced it.
People who live there would never refer to it as 'Returned Abeir' - if anything, they probably think Toril has returned to THEM.
Which was my point - it seems they were so desperate to include something new, they didn't really bother to think it all through.
Yes... I know... I'm the one who provided that link...
-I don't see no links there, buddy. ;)
Its in the Designers thread, and links to Ed's response at CK...
-Right. My point was, it's not in this thread, so there's no need to be all like that, with the '
'! :PIt was more of a "looking up at your comment and saying 'yeesh' " then anything deregatory.
So you're waiting on 4.5 then?
Why not give it another year or two and wait for 5e? :P
Don't tempt me. You may be kidding, but I wouldn't put it past WotC. :P
and even if we are, who'd buy it at this point
5e, meh, we wont even be alive for a 5e.
and even if we are, who'd buy it at this point
If it takes 8 years to come and I am still playing these games then I probably will. Unless I am homeless and jobless.
So sfdragon is correct, and there's no way we'll have time to... errr... 'enjoy' it. ;)
If it takes 8 years...
That would be the Year of 7e. :evillaugh
According Brian R. James, it still exists, so DMs can use it if they want, but it it's located on Abeir now (NOT Retruned Abeir, which is on an entirely different planet).
How confusing is that?
Absolutely Not.
According Brian R. James, it still exists, so DMs can use it if they want, but it it's located on Abeir now (NOT Retruned Abeir, which is on an entirely different planet).
How confusing is that?
As it is, Maztica was transposed with the portion of Returned Abeir in the Realms. And as Markus said, it does still exist, but PCs will likely need to venture forth and discover a way to travel to Abeir in order to visit Maztica.
Brian's take, which he may plan to explore in some future article, "is that the terra incognita lands *north* of Maztica were the lands replaced."
5e, meh, we wont even be alive for a 5e.
Only if I'm in my late 80's (I'm currently 39). :P
I may boldly say I'll live long enough to see 20e, and I wouldn't be at retirement age. :evillaugh
Brian's take, which he may plan to explore in some future article, "is that the terra incognita lands *north* of Maztica were the lands replaced."
I'll be expounding on that shortly, using an amalgam of Brian's map and the old 3e ones.
There is a way to save at least some of Maztica, while keeping all the text in the FRCG correct. ;)
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :D
but not me, i didnt loose my mind, never had one to begin with
-Isn't there a gate in "The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar" that leads to Abeir. Didn't Krash mention something to that effect in the Current ask Ed Thread over at Candlekeep. Or did I just lose my mind and go
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :D
You mean this?:-
"Well here's the low down on the "spellplague" before it even was the "spellplague" from Ed himself. Given that the 100 year jump and the Abeir returning thingies are now in the public domain, this post isn't spoiling anything. I'll post this in Ed's thread also for those who don't pick it up here.
There are actually THREE references, all of which will
really only be understandable "after the fact." One of
them is the "Smashed the black star" curiosity that
several scribes have been so fascinated by, and
another is a CYCLOPEDIA heading (yes, just the
heading). [Ed was referring to the "Abeir-Toril" heading]
The third, "main" reference is on page 40 of the DM'S
SOURCEBOOK, referring to Mellomir's claim of finding
an "ancient" and "magical" treasure in the vicinity of
the Haunted Halls. The dwarves vanishing over the
years were fleeing the Realms through gates (portals,
linking to other worlds / alternate Prime Material
Planes) that are not in the Haunted Halls, but can be
reached through the Halls (I think the maps I gave you
at GenCon included the "Whisper's Crypt" level, yes?).
The dwarves were departing to avoid the coming
Spellplague, and the monsters and adventurers
vanishing into and emerging from the Halls were also
using the gates.
The original text of this entry had Mellomir referring
to an unspecified "message of fire."
The original turnover of FR1 THE HAUNTED HALLS OF
EVENINGSTAR included a magical "message" formed by
flames dancing in midair that briefly appeared to
anyone entering the many-pillared room of Encounter
31, that said this: "A great storm of magic is coming,
that will twist or maim many. Beware the Black Star."
It was edited out because the TSR designers of the day
thought it too substantial to print without providing
something of an explanation (that there was no
wordcount left in the module to provide, and that
would open a can of worms they wanted to avoid). This
same message appears in front of the gates used the
dwarves, monsters, and adventurers, whenever they are
approached from the "Realms" side.
So there you have it. Too mangled and chopped-down for
anyone studying the Old Grey Box to recognize without
this explanation. Sorry. I DID warn everyone it would
be nigh-impossible to spot, beforehand.
By the way, there's something else in FR0 tied to
this: Sabirine's Specular. A Spell Engine provides a
tiny "shelter" from Spellplague effects around itself,
and Sabirine chose to die rather than embrace lichdom
because she didn't want to endure years of undeath
only to be swept away in the Spellplague, or twisted
and maimed and left in a world ravaged by the
Spellplague.
The Spellplague term isn't mine (I called it "the
Doom," or "the Coming of the Black Star" or "THE
Spellstorm"), and I always intended this to be a
mythical always-in-the-future bogey-tale.
There you have it."
!18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric)
Absolutely Not.
According Brian R. James, it still exists, so DMs can use it if they want, but it it's located on Abeir now (NOT Retruned Abeir, which is on an entirely different planet).
How confusing is that?
i like think about it as similar to DC Comics back when they had Earth-1 and Earth-2. "Identical" planets that orbited the same sun, just on the exact opposite side of it.
Abeir --> o ----- 0 ----- o <--Toril
^
||
Sun
Theoretically, you could jump on a Spelljammer and go over to Abeir from Faerun. But the two worlds cannot view each other.
As far as the "Returned" Lands are concerned, the territories they returned over are located in Abeir--Maztica, Mulhorond, and all that jazz are doing quite well over in Abeir.
I thought they were in different dimensions.
Either Way, I'd like Abeir better if it was on the opposite side of Toril's sun, or even what another poster suggested - inside Toril (have a whole 'Hollow World' thing going on).
Both of those would make more sense canonically - how the hell does Ao create a world in a different Crystal Sphere when he has no power outside his sphere?
-So, with this in mind, Maztica is out there...Somewhere...
And if the answer is yes, who wants to go in halvsies on an intersteller spaceship? :P
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
Does this mean that somewhere out there is a world where Ed Greenwood never sold the Realms to TSR, and instead became a great author in his own right, got rich, and bought TSR before WotC did?
-Yes.
And if the answer is yes, who wants to go in halvsies on an intersteller spaceship? :P
-Not me.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
It even looks like it could be us. ;)
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
I barely remember that atrocity....
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
No, we would be The Far Out Spacenuts.
It even looks like it could be us. ;)
Why remember, when it's on youtube? Honk! Honk! :D
;) Thanks now I will have that shows theme song in my head for the next couple of days. Thank you very much.Maztica was bad, but only in that the people payed to flesh-it out did a miserable job, and basically just switched around a few letters and re-wrote RW history on top of FR. With more development and a lot less derivation, it could have been great. Look at GH's Hepmonland or Eberron's Xendrik for inspiration for what could have been done, had the people responsible for Maztica had any real talent (this is in NO WAY an insult to the CURRENT designers, so please don't ban me again).
On the other hand, Returned Abeir is worse. Not only is it ill-conceived (what? The poeople who live there called it Returned Abeir?!), but it serves absolutely no IG purpose that can be had elsewhere in the Realms already. The designers went out of their way to remove everything that they felt was derivitive and redundant in the setting... and then went ahead and created an unneccessary continent that is useless to a DM, except as a seperate campaign area... in which case, it should have been a seperate setting.
The 4e Realms is a perfect example of trying to do too much with too little , or in other words "too many cooks spoiled the broth".
Maztica was bad, but Abeir is badder...
and 5e will probably replace it with the badderest of them all. :P
A bit late to this thread but here goes. I liked Maztica. I thought the setting could have been better presented, the original boxed set just scratched the surface for what a real Mayan-Aztec inspired setting could offer.
Good things:
1. Alien setting. I think to my mind the Maya and the Aztecs were some of the most interesting and thoroughly non-Western real world cultures that the PCs could adventure in/with.
2. New types of magic, hishna shaping and pluma weaving. A new continent with no contact with Faerun should have its own way of doing things.
3. Not done often. Not a lot of game settings that try to use these cultures for inspiration.
Bad things:
1. The people, the magic, the characters were all so very very weak. I know they were trying to simulate the relative ease with which Spain conquered the real world Aztecs but they made them too weak (and in large part they succeeded in our world thanks to disease).
2. Very few monsters. Years later a Dragon magazine article came out with five or seven very cool Mesoamerican monsters that would have been great. Why weren't they in the boxed set? Real world animals alone should have provided tons of inspiration for new monsters, let alone Maya and Aztec mythology and legend. I remember the boxed set mentioned in a throw away line rain dragons. Where were there stats? Or even anything on them? There was a rain linnorm years later, was that it?
3. Turning to the Underdark/drow all of that as a big bad/deep secret of Maztica. Please. That's Faerun's thing and Faerun has that in droves. Do something original with Maztica.
I used Maztica and Lopango quite a bit. I researched the real world Maya, Aztecs, and for Lopango the Inca to flesh out the cultures a good bit more. I looked up and did stats for real world animals, not just doing their stats but also stats for monsters based on them as well as ones I just made up. I had a group of dragons called protodragons and included three types, the jungle (wingless, panther-shaped or larger, had a hypnotic gaze), kelp (ocean-going, lived in the kelp forets off the coast) and canyon (flew, sort of a very big aggressive lizard), as well as a score of other creatures like variant treants (each type of tree they were based on gave flavor, different abilities and vulnerabilites to the treant, such as the mangrove treant, catclaw treant, cottonwood treant, etc). I created a whole new race of Maztica fey, the skippers, which were somewhat buttefly like in their wings at least, but had a vareity of types, as much variety as the mephits, I had monarch skippers, luna skippers, blue skippers, etc.
I made Lopango larger than the maps had and made it like South America, with a huge rain forest, a gigantic river, headhunter tribes, lots of snakes, rich birdlife, mountains of silver, towering peaks like the Andes, the Inca, it was great.
Basically to me the Maztica boxed set and its follow ups was a great idea that just wasn't taken far enough, though I will admit even if done perfectly would probably appeal only to a niche group, such as Al-Qadim and Oriental Adentures did; they had lots of fans, many very loyal, but the majority of players want a European type setting such as found in the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, or Eberron.
cool stuff.
Very cool stuff.
The idea was that Cordell only found a couple of weak cultures near the coast, but deep in the interior were some truly powerful creatures, beings, and cultures. Once the Amnians ran afoul of them, things got on a more even keel.
Considering how under-developed the whole thing was, it would have been a very simple task to 'update' Maztica to better fit the realms. Unfortunately, the designers found it easier to just hire some Freelance talent (Ed Greenwood) to make something else up, rather then just give it a little thought and make it better.
How simple would it have been to create an entire Kingdom existing in a dead-magic zone, or have it so the Maztican gods made it that Smokpowder would no longer function in the 'True World'. Without magic and guns, the Faerûnians would have been screwed.
There was another Maztica thread here about a year ago that unfortunately died-off, but it was developing Maztica to be more on-par with the rest of Faerûn.
The idea was that Cordell only found a couple of weak cultures near the coast, but deep in the interior were some truly powerful creatures, beings, and cultures. Once the Amnians ran afoul of them, things got on a more even keel.
Considering how under-developed the whole thing was, it would have been a very simple task to 'update' Maztica to better fit the realms. Unfortunately, the designers found it easier to just hire some Freelance talent (Ed Greenwood) to make something else up, rather then just give it a little thought and make it better.
How simple would it have been to create an entire Kingdom existing in a dead-magic zone, or have it so the Maztican gods made it that Smokpowder would no longer function in the 'True World'. Without magic and guns, the Faerûnians would have been screwed.
I remember the thread. Sad that it didn't get anywhere. Real world Aztec, Maya, and Inca culture and history is very rich and could have provided a well detailed, original, and challenging place to adventure in. I think some players think of Maztica as just dying cities in the jungle or savages in the rain forest but a well done Maztica could be so much more.
And as I mentioned on my earlier post, they really dropped the ball on the monsters and mundane wildlife. The real world Spanish were astounded by the animals they met...bison, alligators, crocodiles, capybara, huge parrots, sloth, anacondas, rattlesnakes, tapir, howler monkeys...why shouldn't adventuring PCs be no less astounded by what they encounter?
To me the setting should have detailed as much as say the 1E Oriental Advntures was, with new characters classes, new races, new spells, unique magic items, a slew of new monsters real world and magical/fantasy, and number of adventuring ideas.
Just allowing Maztican more mystical areas to essentially be coterminant with the Feywild or Shadowfell feels right to me aswell. Such oppertunity for revitelization of the Aztec/Maya flavour of the jungle and the underworld.