4e
Ilmater
Torm
Red Knight
Bane
Cyric
Kelemvor
Fzoul
Oubold
2nd and 3e
Azuth
Mask
Tempus
Bhaal
Finder Wyvernspur
Midnight
Gwaeron Windstrom
Uthgar
Most found divinity through hardship such as selfsacrifice, consistant magical breakthroughs, saving or destroying huge amounts of lives and other heroic or villainous deeds.
- Myrkul
- Shevarash
- Siamorphe
- Clangeddin Silverbeard
- Velsharoon
Valkur
Kiaransalee
Deep Duerra
Iyachtu Xvim
The trend of making deities "mortal" started with 3,xE and deities with stats. Giving that 4E goes even further than that, it was only natural that players (especially the new genereation, I would assume) start thinking about going after or becoming somesuch sooner or later. Not in my Realms, even in 3,5E.
Im surprised that Karsus forgot to name himself. Are you suddenly unsure of yourself?;)
-Do I count?
-Another one to add to the list is Volumvox.
The best advice I could give you is to tie their Ascension in with the end of the campaign. Taking the ED doesn't instantly make them a demipower. It does give them abilities they may or may not know (IC) where they stem from.
If they actively seek deity hood, then questing for a source of their power is a good idea. If they aren't trying to seek it, then having their powers bestowed by a higher power is a good alternative.
Also remember, by 30th level, you aren't a deity, but a demipower equal to an exarch.
Hope this helps.
how do you figure Tempus??
I extrapolated the readings from The Tome of Foehammer's Triumph (pg. 95 in Faiths and Pantheons) which describes a young Tempus rising to thwart Garagos the Reaver, who relied on only his battlefury, which Tempus took advantage of. This story gives credit to my theory that the earlier gods of war ascended from the battlefields in forms older than even Tempus and Garagos' forms, absorbing and adapting to the new ways of waging battle.
The trend of making deities "mortal" started with 3,xE and deities with stats. Giving that 4E goes even further than that, it was only natural that players (especially the new genereation, I would assume) start thinking about going after or becoming somesuch sooner or later. Not in my Realms, even in 3,5E.
It's nothing so new to the FR, that a "player" can become a god. I think it is something many "new" fans dreamed of, since the PC game Baldur's Gate and its successors. But this also shows imo that it is not so easy to become one and besides not the best ending, if you are one of the more "romantic" player type.
Its not a job I would want and since the easy god slaughtering in LP also something wich can be really nasty for the individual in question.
And I agree that BG had a great influence on how the people think about the deities and becoming one of them. But even there it wasn't so easy. Many rivals, most on epic levels. And only one to ascend.
I don't think Volumvax counts. Nor does Karsus (sorry, LK;) ).
-Sure he would. He is (or was) DR 0.
-And so would I!
Some people give the Seven Sisters DR 0 too. But that doesn't make them deities comparable to Mystra ;)
I extrapolated the readings from The Tome of Foehammer's Triumph (pg. 95 in Faiths and Pantheons) which describes a young Tempus rising to thwart Garagos the Reaver, who relied on only his battlefury, which Tempus took advantage of. This story gives credit to my theory that the earlier gods of war ascended from the battlefields in forms older than even Tempus and Garagos' forms, absorbing and adapting to the new ways of waging battle.
IIRC correctly Tempus and Garagos both were deities just from rival human pantheons. And as their pantheos merged into the faerunian megapantheon they had to duke it out who would be the lord of war in the united pantheon.
Edit: According to F&P Tempus did indeed arise from the spillover energies of the battle between Shar and Selune (F&P, page 71)
I also don't think that Ilmater has ever been a mortal.
Not in my Realms...
We really need to have bumper-stickers made that say that. :D
Or maybe T-shirts... or maybe put that on the other side of the shirts that say "Rich Baker Must Be Stopped!!!"
Then we can all wear then to Gencon and... nevermind... I forgot to take my meds again...
I extrapolated the readings from The Tome of Foehammer's Triumph (pg. 95 in Faiths and Pantheons) which describes a young Tempus rising to thwart Garagos the Reaver, who relied on only his battlefury, which Tempus took advantage of. This story gives credit to my theory that the earlier gods of war ascended from the battlefields in forms older than even Tempus and Garagos' forms, absorbing and adapting to the new ways of waging battle.
yeah that may be the deal, as I think the 4e version of tempus states that he IS garagos.
and then there is the endgame to Fallout three, not the FR I know but War does change.
from the most primal, the most brutal, etc..
yeah that may be the deal, as I think the 4e version of tempus states that he IS garagos.
-As in Tempus consumed Garagos? Or, as in Tempus always was Garagos? Because, that'd be pretty good, fighting with yourself.
yeah that may be the deal, as I think the 4e version of tempus states that he IS garagos.
No, Garagos is still around as an exarch
...I want to try to model some kind of quest to make that character a god..
From the introduction to Epic Destinies...
...Groups that want a definite endpoint to their PCs' adventures can use Destiny Quests as a springboard for showing how their 30th-level character eventually leaves the mortal world and ascends into the world of gods and legends...
From the Demigod Epic Destiny...
...When you complete your final quest, your divine nature yearns to complete your apotheosis. Upon ordering your mortal affairs, the astral flame smoldering within you detonates, consuming all that remains of your mortal flesh. The astral flame leaves behind a fledgling god...
So your idea was actually entirely proper. Its not "You reach 30th level and you are a god." You really have to try at it, and the character really only fulfills godhood if the DM says so, although I wouldn't use this as a catch and deny him his concept, assuming you reach 30th level. That being said, I think it would be fun to introduce new gods to the pantheon! Well, kinda...
*Stuff*
Actually, becoming a god (or an immortal godlike being*) has been in D&D since Basic D&D. More specifically, around Companion/Master era if I understood Acaneum right. The same rules were reprinted in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia.
I remember reading by older brother's D&D books and there were rules for becoming a god/immortal.
-Joni
*Might be a Mystara thing. Ask them for more.
Actually, becoming a god (or an immortal godlike being*) has been in D&D since Basic D&D. More specifically, around Companion/Master era if I understood Acaneum right. The same rules were reprinted in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia.
I remember reading by older brother's D&D books and there were rules for becoming a god/immortal.
-Joni
*Might be a Mystara thing. Ask them for more.
-That, of course, wasn't what Zanan was saying. Second edition sources gave stats to the avatars of deities. Third edition sources gave stats to the deities themselves. And, neither was that too...relevant to the hows or whos as to which mortals became deities, and so on.
Actually, becoming a god (or an immortal godlike being*) has been in D&D since Basic D&D. More specifically, around Companion/Master era if I understood Acaneum right. The same rules were reprinted in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia.
I remember reading by older brother's D&D books and there were rules for becoming a god/immortal.
-Joni
*Might be a Mystara thing. Ask them for more.
It was in the Master set. Although if you really meant to do it, you'd probably need to start towards the end of the Companion levels. Very hard it was too. Five paths, depending on which sphere you were aiming for (though Entropy wasn't a PC goal, generally). Nothing as simple as getting to 36th level.
edit:
One more ascended mortal, Savras.
-Joni
So your idea was actually entirely proper. Its not "You reach 30th level and you are a god." You really have to try at it, and the character really only fulfills godhood if the DM says so, although I wouldn't use this as a catch and deny him his concept, assuming you reach 30th level. That being said, I think it would be fun to introduce new gods to the pantheon! Well, kinda...
Well, I never saw ascending as a "reach 30th level" thing. There are many NPCs that are over 30 lvl and are not gods. Larloch, for example.
Ascension is a thing of much more. First of all, you have somehow to gain access to divine essence. Slaying a god or even being his child is not enough. Second, you have to gain your portfolio and domains, which is not easy. Remember how many deities have Good, or Evil? Or for less popular domains, those who have them won't give their monopoly up. Third, you have to have worshippers. Obvious, isn't it?
I actually found the mortal-becoming-god ideology bothersome. It simply... cheapens the idea of a divine being.
depends on your definition of a divine being
I have Athar-like view on this
depends on your definition of a divine being
Heh, that's more or less my own take on the matter.
-I find it bothersome as it's presented in the 4e PHB, with it being a 'normal reward' that anyone can get. I'm not averse to mortals becoming deities, but when they do, I want it to be (A) something that is worked for, (B) something that does not happen very often, (C) something that happens to 'NPCs', not 'PCs'.
Well, that's the great thing about this game. You don't have to use what you don't want... Simple, sweet and true. But you already knew that.
Just because WotC gives us something in a book, it doesn't mean that it has to be used. This has been true for all editions.
If it's just 'being' there somehow cheapens the experience for you... well, I don't think anything can help that. Not that you use 4e or anything...
I'm sure you've been on the other side of this type of discussion before. You know, saying just because it's there doesn't mean it has to be there for your game... right?
A) It doesn't have to be freely given (and even states it shouldn't be) B) It doesn't have to happen very often. C) It is what it is for your game. Why deny it for all, when a few dislike it?
Divine Ascension has been a staple of D&D for a very long time. You can use it or not (not that you even use 4e, but that is besides the point). Just because you don't care for it doesn't make it wrong to add an iconic part of D&D to a core book.
The DM still has to say "Yeah, your god-form burns its way out of your mortal shell. Grats and all that."
Also, with a character I'm running right now, with that epic destiny, I hope to achieve becoming (NPCly, of course) as powerful as maybe Baphomet. I don't really think its true godhood, more like something along the lines of Orcus, Baphomet, etc. Demon Princes. Archdevils. Guys like those. Yeah, you could probably be a cleric of Dispater. I don't see anything wrong with it. I guess. But Dispater is also not a god. He doesn't possess that lovely immunity to attacks from creatures lower than 20, or the discorporation ability.
That's how I see it. I see Orcus as a fledgeling god. He's getting there, to be sure. But he's had to fight tooth and nail just to get where he is today (Last Word notwithstanding.) I don't see someone popping up and being a level 35 solo (Vecna, I'm looking at you! With your own eye, no less.)
...Stuff...
-Did I, at any point, claim that things were "bad/wrong/stupid/not D&D/etc." because of this?
-Did I, at any point, claim that things were "bad/wrong/stupid/not D&D/etc." because of this?
Not that I saw... did I say you said things were "bad/wrong/stupid/not D&D/etc."?
You did, however, say it was "bothersome as it's presented in the 4e PHB, with it being a 'normal reward' that anyone can get."
To which I gave reasons for it being there that were counter to yours. YOU might not like it, but that is hardly a reason to knock it.
Unless your opinion is more important then the next guys, that is...
Not that I saw... did I say you said things were "bad/wrong/stupid/not D&D/etc."?
-You're response, in order for it to be relevant, or rather, to apply properly, hinges on the fact. Which is why I responded as I did to begin with, since I said 'apples' and you said 'oranges'.
You did, however, say it was "bothersome as it's presented in the 4e PHB, with it being a 'normal reward' that anyone can get."
-And, it continues to be something that I find bothersome, with it being a 'normal reward' that anyone can get.
To which I gave reasons for it being there that were counter to yours. YOU might not like it, but that is hardly a reason to knock it.
-Wait, wait, wait...So, since *I* don't like it, and included the reason(s) why I don't like it, that's not a reason for me to criticize it?
Unless your opinion is more important then the next guys, that is...
-To me, it most certainly is. I didn't claim to speak for anyone else.
-You're response, in order for it to be relevant, or rather, to apply properly, hinges on the fact. Which is why I responded as I did to begin with, since I said 'apples' and you said 'oranges'.
-And, it continues to be something that I find bothersome, with it being a 'normal reward' that anyone can get.
-Wait, wait, wait...So, since *I* don't like it, and included the reason(s) why I don't like it, that's not a reason for me to knock it?
-To me, it most certainly is. I didn't claim to speak for anyone else.
Ok.... so I disagree with you... what is the problem here?
-Specifically this part: "...YOU might not like it, but that is hardly a reason to knock it.". I'll be honest, you sound a little silly there. What criteria can I use to measure how much I like/dislike something if not my own?
Let me clarify it for you then. Just because you don't care for it, for what ever reasons those might be, doesn't mean it shouldn't be in there.
Obviously, there are enough people who play D&D that enjoy the idea of becoming a god.
I just found it odd that someone who won't use 4e rules would still gripe about something in the book.
I just found it odd that someone who won't use 4e rules would still gripe about something in the book.
-I can't cook for the life of me (I can make a few snack-type foods, and maybe one or two actual meal-type foods that come out tasting good maybe 65% of the time), but I can still tell you foods I like and don't like. ;)
Still. It amuses me to see Faeruns gods as just extremely powerful immortal beings that can be wrong, angry, happy, jealous or bored. Killing one should be hard but not impossible. Gods can slay eachother easily if they want to, but most wont out of fear of repercussions from their divine society (the mini pantheons and the corresponding alliances + the laws set down by Ao).
How would a mortal with the ambition to become a god of war go about keeping his secret when Tempus can hear even his thoughts of grandeur? Tempus will likely go: "Oh is that so?" *lightning from the sky* "How you're gonna achieve that as a pile of ash?"
-The same way a magician can steal the power of the deity of magic with a spell?
:P-I can't cook for the life of me (I can make a few snack-type foods, and maybe one or two actual meal-type foods that come out tasting good maybe 65% of the time), but I can still tell you foods I like and don't like.
Yeah, but when the question is "How would I go about making good pasta? I heard it's easy!" it's not exactly relevant to the discussion to reply with a "I don't like pasta."
I am aware of the irony of this statement. It's what I do.
-It traces back to the false trope that in order to be able to pronounce support or denounce something, you first need to have it/use it/own it/whatever else.
See, the OP wasn't asking for denouncements, the OP was asking for the how's & whys of it.
-The OP did indeed ask specifically what deities were once mortals, and how these mortals achieved divine apotheosis. Your first post in the thread does not address either what mortals became divine entities, or what methods these individuals achieved their divine apotheosis by. Please take your own advice, if you are going to "hurl condemnation".
lol, you're right LK, I didn't address the first part because it was already done. I did address the next part about the how/why... you didn't. You just chimed in to sow your discontent, which was unneeded, to say the least.
But what ever, we're de-railing this thread so lets drop it, ok.
*edit: you did add to the list, but the comment I quoted has zero value to the discussion or to the OP. It appeared to be an attempt to show your dislike for w/e reason. It wasn't needed.
How would a mortal with the ambition to become a god of war go about keeping his secret when Tempus can hear even his thoughts of grandeur? Tempus will likely go: "Oh is that so?" *lightning from the sky* "How you're gonna achieve that as a pile of ash?"
I just want to point out that becoming a demigod as per the ED doesn't necessarily involve replacing/killing the powerful deity who is already in place. Most likely a PC who wanted to be a "deity of war" would serve Tempus and wind up as his Exarch.
I just want to point out that becoming a demigod as per the ED doesn't necessarily involve replacing/killing the powerful deity who is already in place. Most likely a PC who wanted to be a "deity of war" would serve Tempus and wind up as his Exarch.
Very true, I said about the same a few posts up...
I just want to point out that becoming a demigod as per the ED doesn't necessarily involve replacing/killing the powerful deity who is already in place. Most likely a PC who wanted to be a "deity of war" would serve Tempus and wind up as his Exarch.
Unless in your Realms you kill off Tempus for being a pompous a$$ and replace him with another pompous a$$. Remember if you're the Dm you are essentially the Ao of your game.
Unless in your Realms you kill off Tempus for being a pompous a$$ and replace him with another pompous a$$. Remember if you're the Dm you are essentially the Ao of your game.
I'm not saying you can't kill deities, I'm just saying that taking the Demigod ED isn't necessarily about replacing them. In fact, IIRC nothing in the text about that ED mentions becoming a super-powerful deity--you become what the title suggests, a demigod/exarch.
I'm not saying you can't kill deities, I'm just saying that taking the Demigod ED isn't necessarily about replacing them. In fact, IIRC nothing in the text about that ED mentions becoming a super-powerful deity--you become what the title suggests, a demigod/exarch.
I meant no offense. ;) I think I may have misread your post.
Deity slaying might come later, which leads to...
