yours truly shaundakull
There is always a bright side with any of these changes.
I have had a long standing campaign in that part of the world liking the Egyptian motif, and it seems kinda i wont say raciest but dang close to it wipe out the oldest human city (Egyptian), and i think to just do a "oh yeah there wiped out" without any great plot ideas or a chance for survival is or should i say was something i thought you people wouldn't do but i fear real life racism may have played a part in our time of fear and mistrust. if i misjudge sorry but it does look odd that you wiped out the hole desert middle east feel areas.
yours truly shaundakull
-Many people claimed to have disliked Mulhorand (and Unther) because they felt they were too heavily influenced by the real-world Egypt (and Babylon). Of course, that should have been the case, since it is alluded to that the Mulhorandi are/were abductees from Egypt (and Babylon, with the Untheric). But, that aside, because of that reason, many people felt that Mulhorand didn't (and Unther) fit in the Forgotten Realms, and "stuck out like a sore thumb".
-Of course, this throws out the fact that, in the setting and in real life, Mulhorand (and Unther) have had years of development to allow the place to "grow roots" in the Forgotten Realms, and tie itself to other people/places/things, further integrating it into the setting. And, of course, in replacing Mulhorand (and Unther) with what the 4e FRCG replaced them with, you get another instance of something that doesn't "feel" Forgotten Realms- Tymanther and High Imaskar*, which brings us back to square one, without the further benefit of having had years for the area to have asserted itself into Realmslore, like Mulhorand (and Unther).
* Which existed before, of course, but as a talked about, defunct, nation, rather than an existing one.
I have had a long standing campaign in that part of the world liking the Egyptian motif, and it seems kinda i wont say raciest but dang close to it wipe out the oldest human city (Egyptian), and i think to just do a "oh yeah there wiped out" without any great plot ideas or a chance for survival is or should i say was something i thought you people wouldn't do but i fear real life racism may have played a part in our time of fear and mistrust. if i misjudge sorry but it does look odd that you wiped out the hole desert middle east feel areas.
Who is the "you", here? We are just fans of the FR, not designers.
Also, while I understand your "beef", let's not forget that Mulhorand wasn't the only place wiped off the map. Much of the old Shining South was destroyed or changed dramatically, and most of the places there had no real-world analogues.
Halruua got nailed because it was on the 'Elaine Cunningham hit-list'.
Anyhow, I think if you wanted to keep them around, and perhaps give the Mulhorand/Raurin/New Imaskar (:yuck
region some flair, you could use a LOT of the stuff from Sandstorm.The 'Free Mulan' could have evolved into the Asheratis (I HATE that name) - the Spellplague once-again comes to the rescue as the all-purpose explanation (for the changes to the people).
In fact, if you take that, and combine it with the concept of the Fremen (from Dune), you could have yourself a pretty neat little campaign right there.
No.
Halruua got nailed because it was on the 'Elaine Cunningham hit-list'.
I want more information on that. :P
I want more information on that. :P
-Apparently, Elaine wanted it dead. She has those connections to New England's "Mafia" and all, so...
More like anything she had a hand in creating, WotC went out of it's way to obliterate in 4e.
Methinks there is a 'woman hater' on the team, especially when you take into account there are no women on the team anymore, and all the powerful females were removed from the setting (back in the kitchens where they belong, I suppose).
Don't even get me started on Chult... I feel like I'm back in the 1950's...
Not the crap that was peddled, which is sometimes the type of kool-aid people drink up like it is going out of style. And make no mistake: It is complete and utter crap.
On the issue of women: They axed tons of characters, most of which were human who died off due to the time jump. That is not taking an axe to women in the setting - it is logic being applied to the human aging process unless human women have the ability to live longer than 100 years.
The first example that comes to my mind to prove this idiotic statement false is Coronal Ilsevele Miritar, the ruler of Myth Drannor.
From the FRCG page 156: "Ilsevele is considered by her subjects and allies to be courageous, compassionate, determined, and plucky. She is one of the fiercest adversaries of the Shadovar, who have come to see her as their principal foe in the region."
Oh, I am sure that is not enough for you. "One female doesn't prove anything!" Yes, well if this does not prove that somebody was sitting in the room doing a tally of females in the setting, nothing will: count the number of gods listed in the FRCG. You'll find that there are 18 females and 19 males. Do you think that almost near perfect "balance" happened by accident? I do not think so.
I could go on a rant about how 4th Edition D&D in general has gone out of its way in to appeal to female gamers. I could write how I feel simply changing a few pronouns from "him" to "her" when talking about a player or a DM is patronizing. I mean, they are trying that is clearly evident, so I'm not going to kick somebody for trying. However, just as a side note to appealing to female gamers: If you want to do that, why not actually find out what females want and design something that they'd like? Women aren't stupid, they are not suddenly going to pick up your product because you changed a pronoun. If someone focuses on creating a great setting or game, and takes into consideration what women would (and here is the important part) BE INTERESTED IN SEEING / PLAYING then you can cut out all the fake patronizing crap. ...but I digress.
The point is 4E as a whole has gone out of its way to cater to females unlike any edition that has come before it. It is so heavy that when reading the books it is almost like sitting in a room with a bunch of marketing guys talking to the editors. It is just so obvious that they went out of their way, which is why I feel it is patronizing.
The whole "the design team hates women! WAHHH!" BS is being peddled by a bunch of disgruntled people who hate the changes, and are looking for a reason to throw anything at those who changed the Realms. Maybe something someday will actually be true and stick.
The only claim that is stated in favor of such a view is this: the design team killed Mystra and most of the Seven Sisters. Yes, they did. They killed off some of the most vapid and one dimensional characters to ever grace the setting. I'll grant you that most of them had personalities that sucked the air out of any scene they were in so badly that it caused sinus cavities to collapse.
Of course, using that as your reasoning is like having Paris Hilton and Britney Spears suddenly die (who are also vapid, one dimensional individuals who are attention hogs), and then claiming that females no longer exist in the media.
I'm already aware of the responses I'll get from certain individuals. I look forward to the response where someone claims that Cyric was like a stalker and serial killer, hunting down Mystra and killing her in cold blood. As if he didn't have any motivation to do so based upon past history, and as if he wasn't a psychotic more-than-a-little-evil-and-nuts deity of murder. But, you know how it goes. The designers were really vicariously living out their secret fantasies to kill women horribly through Cyric. Yes, I've read all this crap here before.
As to the claim that the designers not only hate women, they also hate anyone who isn't white... well... I've already responded to all of this in another thread. What I find rather humorous about that claim is that people assume that the majority of those in Faerûn are white. Hint: The people of Cormyr are not white. Most of the people in Faerûn are not white. If you want to find the white people in Faerûn you're going to have to stick pretty close to the North. As for those who have the darkest skin pigmentation? Calishites, Mulan (who are still around in large numbers - just spread out), Rashemis (who are also all over Aglarond, the Endless Waste, Thesk, and the Wizards' Reach regions), and Southern Tethyrians. Sorry to break it to everyone: black people can be more than uncivilized and tribal. They are all over the place, not just in some isolated region of the world. (Which actually makes me wonder what is more racist: imagining the entire setting as white centric when it is not, or actually having a white centric setting.)
Oh, and if you want to get a look at the skin color of those from Cormyr check this image and this image out. Sorry to ruin your white-centric Realms by actually looking at the lore of the various ethnic groups, and going to Google hunting for the proper images to reflect them based on the descriptions.
I would say sorry to derail your thread, shaundakull, but it appears that I ended my post decidedly on topic.
You can count the number of deities yourself on page 80 of the FRCG.
I could go on a rant about how 4th Edition D&D in general has gone out of its way in to appeal to female gamers.
-I wouldn't ever go anywhere near Astrid's Parlor, in that case.
Some us see what we want to see, and some of us refuse to see the writing on the wall. It's human nature.
And since I'm on a roll, you should ask Ed about why the he is no longer alowed to depict non-heterosexual relationships in the Realms - it appears Hasbro has decided such things are 'unsuitable' for children.
I guess they are painting the 'degenerate' tag all over a major portion of the game-buying consumer market as well. I am SO glad that a toy company is now making my morality decisions for me.
1950's, indeed. ;)
You could certainly argue, for example, that Hasbro marketing people have had a strong hand in shaping 4E and "sterilizing" the Realms for a younger market. To that I'd simply point to all the things TSR did that impacted the Realms due to marketing decisions (the whole 'evil must never win or be showed to be favorable in anyway' hugely impacted the Realms.)
Go figure.
Either way, IMHO, I found the old Realms a 'breath of fresh air', and very forward-thinking, and I think a lot more has been lost with this edition then just rules and a few NPCs.
If people don't see it that way, thats fine, but I happen to know quite a few who do... and there was a BIG discussion about just this subject over at Paizo some time ago. It pertained to their 'thinking outside the box' when they created their 'Iconics'.
No Regdar the 'generic white male' fighter for them. :D
Oh yes in-deedy... they (the Paizo people) were more then willing to share Redgar's 'seedy' history with us....
-Who is Redgar, and what does he have to do with Mulhorand?
Redgar was the "generic", "iconic" fighter character used as an example in 3E products. No idea how he relates to Mulhorand though.
Regdar was added-in at the last minute by WotC's 'marketing people' to appeal to the game's main demographic - the pasty-faced white male nerd boy.
The designers 'got even' with the marketing people, by having something horrible happen to Regdar on the cover of nearly every 4e core book.
A little D&D history I thought I'd share, curtesy of the Paizo folks (and it proves that D&D designers have been known to make decisions out of spite).
What does he have to do with Mulhorand? Well, he was aboard a Spelljammer once, outbound from Alderan doing a 'Kessel Run', see, and............ :P
No idea how he relates to Mulhorand though.
What does he have to do with Mulhorand? Well, he was aboard a Spelljammer once, outbound from Alderan doing a 'Kessel Run', see, and............ :P
-Exactly the point. Ixnay on the...Edgarray and oremay on the...Ulhorandmay.
-Okay?
-Fun language. :P
If I am not mistaken in 1st Edition he was a bi-sexual hermaphroditic deity (capable of being both male and female).
I totally support that, because frankly it's awesome. :P (It also explains several lingering questions about Elves and body hair...)
And yes, the perfectly androgynous Corellon is awesome, though he/she has less obvious use for a consort, something androgynous creator gods generally don't have. When Carl Sargent invented Sehanine Moonbow in 2nd edition, the male pronoun became more reasonable.
Jazirian was referred to as "he/she" in Monster Mythology, the same book where Corellon Larethian became simply "he."
Regdar was added-in at the last minute by WotC's 'marketing people' to appeal to the game's main demographic - the pasty-faced white male nerd boy.
That does explain why they had two prominent fighter iconics.
The designers 'got even' with the marketing people, by having something horrible happen to Regdar on the cover of nearly every 4e core book.
A little D&D history I thought I'd share, curtesy of the Paizo folks (and it proves that D&D designers have been known to make decisions out of spite).
And then several designers were laid off around the holidays...
j/k about the connection part at the least.
Well if one wants to go the equality route, people could always lobby WotC to end the false portrayals of Corellon.
If I am not mistaken in 1st Edition he was a bi-sexual hermaphroditic deity (capable of being both male and female).
I totally support that, because frankly it's awesome. (It also explains several lingering questions about Elves and body hair...)
That was awesome indeed. The 3e Deities and Demigods depiction of Corellon did have a blended quality.
Jazirian was referred to as "he/she" in Monster Mythology, the same book where Corellon Larethian became simply "he."
As a couatl maybe that's more 'acceptable' for the public than a humanoid elf.
That might be a bit '4e' for some people's tastes, but I prefer my non-human races to be a liitle more 'alien', and having Corellon appear male to some, and female to others would be cool (perhaps with his voice even sounding different as he turned from one character to another while speaking).
Edit: As an intersting note, many early Vedic gods were represented as being hermaphroditic.