I would have liked to see what Io's avatar was in the time of troubles, Or Illsensine's.
Bahamut/Palindine
Tiamat/Thakisis
Um, I read that Tiamat and Takhisis are two seperate deities, they are similar, they both have the same looking dragon avatar, but different. Specifically, this is in the 2E Monster Mythology book where it says Tiamat is unsuitable for Dragonlance as she is so much like Takhisis and Takhsis is described elsewhere.
As for your book, I've never read it. But, as we've learned, deities--even those far less similar--can be the same and one.
Tiamat has always been Tahkisis to me.
Tiamat/Thakisis
Um, I read that Tiamat and Takhisis are two seperate deities, they are similar, they both have the same looking dragon avatar, but different. Specifically, this is in the 2E Monster Mythology book where it says Tiamat is unsuitable for Dragonlance as she is so much like Takhisis and Takhsis is described elsewhere.
Hmmm, Tiamat is the Babylonian goddess who personified the sea and the primordial chaos. She is depicted as a dragon by modern historians (incorectly, but hey guess where TSR got their stuf).
Tiamat is the FR interloper diety from Babylon hanging out in Unther.
Takhisis is, um, well, this dragon goddess who looks an awful lot like Tiamat (D&D style) and does some similar things but is more important to the storyline. So, gee, I don't know, Tiamat on steroids. Yeah could be.
Takhisis is, um, well, this dragon goddess who looks an awful lot like Tiamat (D&D style) and does some similar things but is more important to the storyline. So, gee, I don't know, Tiamat on steroids. Yeah could be.
Many gods in D&D are based of human mythology. Doesn't mean that they don't cross into two different worlds.
As for steroids, different worlds, different powers.
If you follow(ed) DragonLance at all, the stats given to the gods there were extremely weak. You could pretty much smack one upside the head without fear of retaliation. That is, if you were above 20th level.
Many gods in D&D are based of human mythology. Doesn't mean that they don't cross into two different worlds.
As for steroids, different worlds, different powers.
If you follow(ed) DragonLance at all, the stats given to the gods there were extremely weak. You could pretty much smack one upside the head without fear of retaliation. That is, if you were above 20th level.
Yeah, which is why Tahkisis made sure there were no evil NPCs/PCs over a certain level. Hell come to think of it, I don't recall anyone really getting too powerful, but it has been a while since I cracked open my 2nd Ed DL stuff.
And the steroids was really the difference in importance to the overall setting. Tahkisis was the big bad. Tiamat was one of many and not that high on the list.
Yeah, which is why Tahkisis made sure there were no evil NPCs/PCs over a certain level. Hell come to think of it, I don't recall anyone really getting too powerful, but it has been a while since I cracked open my 2nd Ed DL stuff.
Oh, yeah! I forgot about that. There was a 20th level cap on PC's or something.
I bet that is part of the reason I began to dislike Krynn after I started playing in FR.
Holy Bejeebuz Buttcake--Enlightenment!
And the steroids was really the difference in importance to the overall setting. Tahkisis was the big bad. Tiamat was one of many and not that high on the list.
Well, you can sort of see it as my reply above. In comparison to FR, Krynn is a weaker world. Gods there are like Epic PC's (with a little help) here.
I don't imagine that Lloth, as a core god, has the same powers or strengths across the different worlds either.
Oh, yeah! I forgot about that. There was a 20th level cap on PC's or something.
I bet that is part of the reason I began to dislike Krynn after I started playing in FR.
Holy Bejeebuz Buttcake--Enlightenment!
Careful, too much enlightenment before noon and your head could explode!
:headexplo
Well, you can sort of see it as my reply above. In comparison to FR, Krynn is a weaker world. Gods there are like Epic PC's (with a little help) here.
I don't imagine that Lloth, as a core god, has the same powers or strengths across the different worlds either.
True. I liked the Solmanic Knights and how you could slowly shift from Crown to Sword to Rose Knight. That a Solmanic Knight was a gimped paladin was made up by the interesting background. Also liked the three orders of Wizardry. That was kinda neat. But overall, you're right. It was kinda a reaction to the Realms "Hey! Look! Elminster is 36th level Fighter/Thief/Cleric/Wizard!" Dragonlance went the other way with the whole "Hey! Look! We have no power!"
Course Eberron took it a step further with it's view that the vast majority of people never make it past 2nd level and most leaders are lucky if they have something other than NPC classess. Only PC's will get past 10th in Eberron. Well the PC's and the enemies they fight that just happen to be at a level to challenge your party. But no one else will be above 10th.
Careful, too much enlightenment before noon and your head could explode!
:headexplo
Hey, buttcake, I’ve got enough air in my head to handle ten explosions!!
What did I just say?
True. I liked the Solmanic Knights and how you could slowly shift from Crown to Sword to Rose Knight. That a Solmanic Knight was a gimped paladin was made up by the interesting background. Also liked the three orders of Wizardry. That was kinda neat. But overall, you're right. It was kinda a reaction to the Realms "Hey! Look! Elminster is 36th level Fighter/Thief/Cleric/Wizard!" Dragonlance went the other way with the whole "Hey! Look! We have no power!"
Course Eberron took it a step further with it's view that the vast majority of people never make it past 2nd level and most leaders are lucky if they have something other than NPC classess. Only PC's will get past 10th in Eberron. Well the PC's and the enemies they fight that just happen to be at a level to challenge your party. But no one else will be above 10th.
Oh, yeah. I loved the level’s of progression in DL. Made things a bit more important and special to me.
Of course, it relied on the DM to make it so.
As for any “reaction,” DL was established and well-going far before the TOT in FR, which happened to be the turning point. I think that after Raistlen made his attempt at godhood and TSR seen the sales off the novels, then they decided to make an attempt with the same thing in FR.
Anybody actually have the copyrights off those books? Be interesting to see.
As for any “reaction,” DL was established and well-going far before the TOT in FR, which happened to be the turning point. I think that after Raistlen made his attempt at godhood and TSR seen the sales off the novels, then they decided to make an attempt with the same thing in FR.
Anybody actually have the copyrights off those books? Be interesting to see.
Well, I was more speaking on the timeline of when the settings were created. FR definitely came first and had folks like the Seven Sisters, Elminster and the like. DL was dreamed up as Tracy Hickman and his wife were driving to their new job at TSR, IIRC. It was fleshed out over a gaming table and the novels (at least the first few) came out of those gaming sessions.
I recall Raistlin's raspy voice coming out of the player's desire to be listened to at the game table. So, he came up with the gimick to draw attention.
When gods interlope into a new sphere (usually because some of their worshipers have migrated there) they send over an avatar/aspect to grant prayers and such. From what I understand, there can be a connection between the aspect and the main deity, but sometimes the aspect becomes independent and separate, what is called a fragment.
Sometimes fragments can be reabsorbed. Very often they become distinct individuals and come to be thought of as completely different gods from the ones they split off from.
In some instances the fragment may come into portfolio conflict with the god it split off from and may fight and kill the original god. Targus and Garagos appear to be an example of this.
It's safe to say that whatever their original connection was that Takhisis and Tiamat, and Palladine and Bahamut are very distinct, separate gods, no longer sharing any connection one to another.
Well, I was more speaking on the timeline of when the settings were created. FR definitely came first and had folks like the Seven Sisters, Elminster and the like. DL was dreamed up as Tracy Hickman and his wife were driving to their new job at TSR, IIRC. It was fleshed out over a gaming table and the novels (at least the first few) came out of those gaming sessions.
I recall Raistlin's raspy voice coming out of the player's desire to be listened to at the game table. So, he came up with the gimick to draw attention.
I don’t argue at all that FR was around before DL. I do argue (to a degree) that that FR had success with novels before DL. From all I recall and see, DL set the stage for the novel publishing of D&D. After which, TSR published the Avatar Trilogy based on the success of the DragonLance Chronicles.
Takhisis and Palladine were probably once the same entities as Tiamat and Bahamut, but have fragmented into separate beings.
When gods interlope into a new sphere (usually because some of their worshipers have migrated there) they send over an avatar/aspect to grant prayers and such. From what I understand, there can be a connection between the aspect and the main deity, but sometimes the aspect becomes independent and separate, what is called a fragment.
Sometimes fragments can be reabsorbed. Very often they become distinct individuals and come to be thought of as completely different gods from the ones they split off from.
In some instances the fragment may come into portfolio conflict with the god it split off from and may fight and kill the original god. Targus and Garagos appear to be an example of this.
It's safe to say that whatever their original connection was that Takhisis and Tiamat, and Palladine and Bahamut are very distinct, separate gods, no longer sharing any connection one to another.
Excuse me?
Mrtyl, where the hell is my whiskey!!!
...
Where, sir, might I ask, did you come across such theories? 'Cause these are the first, by far, that I have heard of such.
I don’t argue at all that FR was around before DL. I do argue (to a degree) that that FR had success with novels before DL. From all I recall and see, DL set the stage for the novel publishing of D&D. After which, TSR published the Avatar Trilogy based on the success of the DragonLance Chronicles.
Well, I wasn't speaking of the novels. I was talking about the relative power levels of the settings and which had Tiamat/Tahkisis first.
Technically, DL came first in that it was a printed Campaign Setting and novel line first. The Realms was a regular feature in Dragon thanks to Elmin, er, Ed Greenwood. Darkwalker on Moonshae was the first in 1987 after the first adventure kicked things off in 1985 (Bloodstone Pass) and predating the boxset by a month. Dragonlance and the attendant novels began in 1984 as a line of products. There are to date 190 DL novels.
Excuse me?
Mrtyl, where the hell is my whiskey!!!
...
Where, sir, might I ask, did you come across such theories? 'Cause these are the first, by far, that I have heard of such.
American Gods by Neil Gaiman. It is most excellent!
Well, I wasn't speaking of the novels. I was talking about the relative power levels of the settings and which had Tiamat/Tahkisis first.
Technically, DL came first in that it was a printed Campaign Setting and novel line first. The Realms was a regular feature in Dragon thanks to Elmin, er, Ed Greenwood. Darkwalker on Moonshae was the first in 1987 after the first adventure kicked things off in 1985 (Bloodstone Pass) and predating the boxset by a month. Dragonlance and the attendant novels began in 1984 as a line of products. There are to date 190 DL novels.
Well, may have lost you a bit, but agree in all facets.
American Gods by Neil Gaiman. It is most excellent!
You start rockin' out like Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, then I am no longer speaking to.
You start rockin' out like Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, then I am no longer speaking to.
Party on Judge!
And be excellent to one another!Party on Judge!
Turd popper!
Go be excellent with a test monkey. I obviously can't rely on your excellence as a whole.
-Right. More talk on multispheric deities.
Well, to a degree, Bill and Ted were multispheric deities in a sense. Just watch the movie.
Perhaps you would like to respond to Gray's statement. That make sense to you? (Not that you don't make sense Gray, just never heard of such a thing applied to FR.)
Well, to a degree, Bill and Ted were multispheric deities in a sense. Just watch the movie.
-I have never seen the movie, but I do remember the cartoon when I was a little kid. Didn't they time travel, though?
Perhaps you would like to respond to Gray's statement. That make sense to you? (Not that you don't make sense Gray, just never heard of such a thing applied to FR.)
-I don't know anything about Dragonlance, so I can't comment on that. I agree with some of what he said, and disagree with some of what he said. The crux of it though, that sometimes fragments of deities go on and do their own stuff, that much is right.
-I have never seen the movie, but I do remember the cartoon when I was a little kid. Didn't they time travel, though?
A must see, simply for the sheer stupidity it brought.
And, yes, the time traveled, becoming gods to the lower civilizations in their own right, thus making them applicable to this thread. Don't ever test my judgment again.
-I don't know anything about Dragonlance, so I can't comment on that. I agree with some of what he said, and disagree with some of what he said. The crux of it though, that sometimes fragments of deities go on and do their own stuff, that much is right.
DL? That wasn't my point. I was talking of his view on how interloper deities function and handle power between worlds.
Although someone can argue that Asmodeus is not, in fact, a 'human' deity at all, since he is an Arch-devil (THE Arch-devil), but the reality is that he comes from RW mythology, and in the RW, ONLY the human Pantheons exist, ergo he is indeed part of the theoretical 'human' Pantheon. ;)
Edit: Tiamet IS Takhisis, and also is not (just because they say she is not).
I rationalize this by saying both Tiamet and Takhisis are Avatars of an even greater and older primordial Draconic deity, who have been seperated from the original 'essence' for so long they have both achieved self-will, and are no longer part of the original.
In that way, they are both the same, and at the same time are not, which is pretty much how they are presented to us canonically.
You can even use the 2e Guide to Hell, and say both are aspects of Ahriman, but that would relate them to Asmodeus... which really isn't such a bad idea, in retrospect (the whole devil/serpent thing of Judaeo-Christian Myth).
DL? That wasn't my point. I was talking of his view on how interloper deities function and handle power between worlds.
-Like I said, I agree with some of it, and disagree with some of it.
Although someone can argue that Asmodeus is not, in fact, a 'human' deity at all, since he is an Arch-devil (THE Arch-devil), but the reality is that he comes from RW mythology, and in the RW, ONLY the human Pantheons exist, ergo he is indeed part of the theoretical 'human' Pantheon. ;)
-That doesn't work. In the real world, if you go with the notion that all deities that various religions venerate are real and actual things, Asmodeus would still be a Devil. A Demon, actually. Regardless, Demon, Devil, whatever, he still isn't counted as or worshiped as a deity.
He certainly isn't part of any non-human pantheon - from what I understand, Devils do not worship him, they FEAR him. If medieval (and later) churches can be believed, Asmodeus (the Devil) was worshipped by humans - mostly witch covens - there is no recoord of him ever being worshipped by anything else.
Also, this only works if you take in consideration that he is a god in 4e - although he should have always been, if you go by the lore in Guide to hell, which places him FAR older and more powerful then ANY god.
He created the Great Wheel, for Cripesake!
Of course, this would also push Bahamut up the 'divine ladder', and that doesn't really work out as well, especially considering the FR lore regarding Marduk. Both would have had to be aspects of Jazirian, and Jazirian 'died' in Realmspace (which is just plane wrong, IMHO).
Edit: Tiamet IS Takhisis, and also is not (just because they say she is not).
I rationalize this by saying both Tiamet and Takhisis are Avatars of an even greater and older primordial Draconic deity, who have been seperated from the original 'essence' for so long they have both achieved self-will, and are no longer part of the original.
In that way, they are both the same, and at the same time are not, which is pretty much how they are presented to us canonically.
Which means they are the same.
-That doesn't work. In the real world, if you go with the notion that all deities that various religions venerate are real and actual things, Asmodeus would still be a Devil. A Demon, actually. Regardless, Demon, Devil, whatever, he still isn't counted as or worshiped as a deity.
Works fine if you rid yourself of Tay's "human pantheon" limitations.
Devils, demons and deities mean nothing in the real world if they are viewed in another aspect. They are as they are perceived and there are no rules to state otherwise.
-You seem to have mistook what I was saying. None of that makes him a deity to Humans on Earth. He isn't worshiped as a deity on Earth. He isn't considered a deity on Earth. He is considered a Demon or Devil on Earth. Being a Demon or Devil does not a deity make. Satan, "THE Devil", is seen as a Devil, not a deity, in Judeo-Christian theology and philosophy. While seen as the antithesis of G-d, Satan "THE Devil" does not possess powers possessed by G-d. Satan, "THE Devil" is only an angel, albeit a fallen one. Myths commonly depict Satan, "THE Devil" as being dispatched by other angels, such as St. Michael, who is traditionally depicted as stepping on Satan, "THE Devil" and spearing him with a sword/spear/pike.
And you seem to have mistook what I was stating.
Lucifer, in Christianity, is not a god. He is a devil.
There you are correct.
But say Lucifer is Durga to the Hindu (and I am in no way stating such a thing), then he is a god by perception.
In which point, it is all relative to the view, as there are no stats or rule structures for RW power mechanics.
And you seem to have mistook what I was stating.
Lucifer, in Christianity, is not a god. He is a devil.
There you are correct.
-Right, that is all I am saying.
But say Lucifer is Durga to the Hindu (and I am in no way stating such a thing), then he is a god by perception.
-Right. We don't have things linking Satan, "THE Devil" to Durga. We do have literature/theology/philosophy connecting, lots of entities, though.
-Very interesting stuff. For instance, Tiamat, the Summerian deity, was described by the Sumerians as a snake (one of many descriptions). When the Jews arose in the region, to undermine the Sumerian worship of Tiamat, a snake, they began telling stories of how a snake came and ruined the relationship that man had with G-d, causing the downfall of mankind, to vilify snakes and snake-worship. Story sound familiar?
I'm treading awfully close to the taboo subject of RW religions here (the last few posts have, anyway), but I was thinking - what if Durga was the ruler of the devils, until Asmodeus usurped his power?
Also, is Asmodeus the same being as Satan? I know there is some debate as to weather Lucifer was/is (I think of it like this - Lucifer was his name pre-fall, and Satan post-fall, like Lolth and Araushnee).
If Asmodeus is Satan, and Durga is an older, more primal being (he looks like a Demon to me), then at some point Asmodeus may have cast him out. Hmmmm... maybe he was an Arch-fiend Demon Lord, who tok over Hell for awhile, until Asmodeus showed up...
But that doesn't fit at all with the Guide to hell material, which says Asmodeus is Ahriman, making him a divine being LONG before he was a devil (much in the same way lolth was - once again a similarity). Lucifer was the Archangel that was assigned by god to tempt man (and was a little too good at his job), so Lucifer was an Archangel, and couldn't be the same being as D&D Asmodeus (who was Ahriman in canon).
-Very interesting stuff. For instance, Tiamat, the Summerian deity, was described by the Sumerians as a snake (one of many descriptions). When the Jews arose in the region, to undermine the Sumerian worship of Tiamat, a snake, they began telling stories of how a snake came and ruined the relationship that man had with G-d, causing the downfall of mankind, to vilify snakes and snake-worship. Story sound familiar?
Yeah, it sounds familiar. We already know that Tiamat gets her roots from human mythology.
Let's note that Sumerians, Babylonians, Mayans and Aztecs alll held a thing for serpents and their deistic representation. Again, backing up the case for perception in such things.
You guys got me thinking...
Don't. Please. Just don't.
When you start intermingling real world and fantasy you lose yourself into cult like retardedness.
The mothership is not coming and you don't have to drink the Koolaid.
I'm treading awfully close to the taboo subject of RW religions here (the last few posts have, anyway), but I was thinking - what if Durga was the ruler of the devils, until Asmodeus usurped his power?
-Discussion of religion is perfectly acceptable in relation to the CoC so long as it is done tastefully, and much in the vein that we are using it- Not discussing it/debating it for the sake of it, but rather, to augment points, use as examples, and such.
Also, is Asmodeus the same being as Satan?
-According to Wikipedia and it's sources, no.
The mothership is not coming and you don't have to drink the Koolaid.
But the Koolaid taste good and the Mothership is so SHINEY. :D
Unfortunately, since the 1e Deities & Demigods tome came out way back in 1980 (damn... I was a senior...), I have always found it impossible NOT to connect RW religions with D&D, and look at them in game terms. The TSR guys were thoughtful enough to include at least one active religion in that book - the Vedic (Hindu) one, and since Hinduism lists Buddha as an incarnation of Vishnu, and Buddha is also considered a prophet of Islam, right along side Jesus and Mohammed, then I have to take ALL of those relationships and backwards-engineer them into the D&D rules.
Its just in my nature to do so. :P
One man's mythology is another man's religion. I even apply the rules of Paganism/Wicca/Druidism into my games, along with esoteric 'arts' like Alchemy, Numerology, and Astrology.
If you're going to go 'Fantasy' you might as well go full-bore 'looney-cult' while you ar at it, and simply accept that EVERYTHING is real.
Bahamut and Paladine, NO.
Tiamet, in all her prime-world incarnations, is ALWAYS opposed by some 'God of good'. On many it is some incarnation of Bahamut (as Marduk was in FR), but on worlds with no Bahamut, Tiamet will be opposed by another.
Its just the whole 'cosmic balance' way of things.
And I'm sure there are worlds out there where Tiamet has no presence, and Bahamut is opposed by some other evil; be it Bane, Asmodeus, or even Gruumsh.
While many things tend to play-out the same from world to world (like the many non-human pantheons), it is not always the case.
Unfortunately, since the 1e Deities & Demigods tome came out way back in 1980 (damn... I was a senior...), I have always found it impossible NOT to connect RW religions with D&D, and look at them in game terms. The TSR guys were thoughtful enough to include at least one active religion in that book - the Vedic (Hindu) one, and since Hinduism lists Buddha as an incarnation of Vishnu, and Buddha is also considered a prophet of Islam, right along side Jesus and Mohammed, then I have to take ALL of those relationships and backwards-engineer them into the D&D rules.
If you actually read what I post, then you will see that I agree with this (almost completely).
On the other hand, making sh*t up and leaving people to get misinformed is a big no-no around here.
And should it continue, I will send Gus and Vinny to stick a burrito up you’re a$$.
Based on the novel"Tymora's Luck" I don't think Bahamut and Paladine are the same either.
Guess I need to make it a point to read this then.
Tiamet and Takhisis, yes.
Bahamut and Paladine, NO.
Alright MT, please explain. Tiamat/Takhisis get yes (no) and Bahamut /Paladine get a straight up “NO.”
Guess I need to make it a point to read this then.
I Can give you a summary if:
1. Its allowed to describe plots in novels here
2.You don't want to actually read it
3. If you really care.
I Can give you a summary if:
1. Its allowed to describe plots in novels here
2.You don't want to actually read it
3. If you really care.
Sorry if that came off as I was just passing you to the side. You've pointed out an interesting invitation and I have to read it now.
All three are allowed, so give me a bit of a scoop.
Sorry if that came off as I was just passing you to the side. You've pointed out an interesting invitation and I have to read it now.
All three are allowed, so give me a bit of a scoop.
Ok here goes.
The novel has Lathander and Sirrion(god of Krynn) plotting to bring Tyche back by combining Tymora and Besheba together with some machine type thing.
Paladine sends a kender with the power to be invisible to people(gods as well) if they aren't from Krynn. To see if this is the case.
In the end it wasn't a god from Krynn but one from Toril. Emilio mentions tha Fizban(Paladine) says that gods from one world aren't allowed to meddle in another and that it might cause a gods war. So if Paladine was really the Bahamut of Toril as well he wouldn't have had to send someone from Krynn to accomplish this task. He would have had someone from Toril do it.
Its a good book that has Finder and Joel in it. An interesting plot and a fun read
Drizztmanchild-thing-dude-guy-person, thank you!!!
I am completely sure that the writing in this book is going to suck, but to have the two worlds intermingled is fruckin' awesome!!!
Dude. I just googled this and can't believe it to be true.
Drizztmanchild-thing-dude-guy-person, thank you!!!
I am completely sure that the writing in this book is going to suck, but to have the two worlds intermingled is fruckin' awesome!!!
Writing not so bad.
You're a Drizztmanchild. You have no say at this point.
Ok here goes.
The novel has Lathander and Sirrion(god of Krynn) plotting to bring Tyche back by combining Tymora and Besheba together with some machine type thing.
Paladine sends a kender with the power to be invisible to people(gods as well) if they aren't from Krynn. To see if this is the case.
In the end it wasn't a god from Krynn but one from Toril. Emilio mentions tha Fizban(Paladine) says that gods from one world aren't allowed to meddle in another and that it might cause a gods war. So if Paladine was really the Bahamut of Toril as well he wouldn't have had to send someone from Krynn to accomplish this task. He would have had someone from Toril do it.
Its a good book that has Finder and Joel in it. An interesting plot and a fun read
-Note, of course, that
Show
Sirrion is really Xvim in disguise!
Most of the nonhuman gods (the Seldarine, the Jotunbrud, the Mordinsamman, Yondalla's Children, etc.) are multispheric.
Gargauth is multispheric (often moving from world to world). As are most of the other demon, yugoloth, celestial, slaadi, elemental, and devil lords.
Lliira had a passionate romance with the Sumerian god Enki in the 1e adventure anthology Tales of the Outer Planes.
For that matter, the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons were multispheric, though Enki (who was once part of the Untheric pantheon) had long since departed the Realms by then. And is now dead, as of On Hallowed Ground, but that's another story.
Tymora and Beshaba are aspects of the Greek goddess Tyche.
Loviatar is also a Finnish goddess.
Bane and Lathander are both worshipped in the Ravenloft setting as well as the Forgotten Realms. There's some indication that Bane may have originated on a world other than Toril.
Ilmater is not the same as the Finnish goddess Ilmatar, but he may be the same as the Nehwon god Issek of the Jug.
Waukeen has an alliance with the Greyhawk god Celestian.
The pre-Midnight version of Mystra had an alliance with Wee Jas.
It's been suggested in numerous places (for example, the original "gray box" Forgotten Realms campaign setting) that Sune Firehair and the Greek goddess Aphrodite are one and the same.
If you're talking 4e pantheon, the list is smaller, but includes Corellon, Gruumsh, Tiamat, Bane, Bahamut, and Sehanine.
There's also the issue of Realms gods that have subsumed the aspects of multispheric deities. Supposedly Auril is the same entity as the Queen of Air and Darkness in the Realms, Gond the Wonderbringer has subsumed the Realms aspect of the gnomish god Nebelun the Meddler, Velsharoon is the same as Mellifleur/Mellif, Ghaunadaur functions as a combination of the Elder Elemental Eye and Juiblex, Chronepsis and Falazure are both considered aspects of the Faerunian dragon god Null, and Talos is now considered an aspect of Gruumsh.
I'm not sure what the connection between Zehir, Set, and Sseth is supposed to be.
As for Paladine/Bahamut and Tiamat/Takhisis, this is a very, very old argument and the truth is that no one knows whether they're the same deities or not. They have separate realms in the Outer Planes, but Tyr has (or had) a separate realm for his Faerunian aspect too, so that doesn't necessarily mean much. Tyr and Loviatar even have different power levels on different worlds. The 1e Manual of the Planes said that Takhisis and Tiamat were the same, but this was made more doubtful in 2nd edition, and even more doubtful in 3rd edition when the cosmologies separated (which is another issue altogether).
I like to think that when Marduk cut Tiamat in half as in Babylonian mythology, half became Tiamat and half became Takhisis. Or perhaps her portfolio was divided between a previously unnamed daughter of Io and an unrelated goddess from another world.
To answer the original question:
Most of the nonhuman gods (the Seldarine, the Jotunbrud, the Mordinsamman, Yondalla's Children, etc.) are multispheric.
Gargauth is multispheric (often moving from world to world). As are most of the other demon, yugoloth, celestial, slaadi, elemental, and devil lords.
Lliira had a passionate romance with the Sumerian god Enki in the 1e adventure anthology Tales of the Outer Planes.
For that matter, the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons were multispheric, though Enki (who was once part of the Untheric pantheon) had long since departed the Realms by then. And is now dead, as of On Hallowed Ground, but that's another story.
Tymora and Beshaba are aspects of the Greek goddess Tyche.
Loviatar is also a Finnish goddess.
Bane and Lathander are both worshipped in the Ravenloft setting as well as the Forgotten Realms. There's some indication that Bane may have originated on a world other than Toril.
Ilmater is not the same as the Finnish goddess Ilmatar, but he may be the same as the Nehwon god Issek of the Jug.
Waukeen has an alliance with the Greyhawk god Celestian.
The pre-Midnight version of Mystra had an alliance with Wee Jas.
It's been suggested in numerous places (for example, the original "gray box" Forgotten Realms campaign setting) that Sune Firehair and the Greek goddess Aphrodite are one and the same.
If you're talking 4e pantheon, the list is smaller, but includes Corellon, Gruumsh, Tiamat, Bane, Bahamut, and Sehanine.
There's also the issue of Realms gods that have subsumed the aspects of multispheric deities. Supposedly Auril is the same entity as the Queen of Air and Darkness in the Realms, Gond the Wonderbringer has subsumed the Realms aspect of the gnomish god Nebelun the Meddler, Velsharoon is the same as Mellifleur/Mellif, Ghaunadaur functions as a combination of the Elder Elemental Eye and Juiblex, Chronepsis and Falazure are both considered aspects of the Faerunian dragon god Null, and Talos is now considered an aspect of Gruumsh.
I'm not sure what the connection between Zehir, Set, and Sseth is supposed to be.
As for Paladine/Bahamut and Tiamat/Takhisis, this is a very, very old argument and the truth is that no one knows whether they're the same deities or not. They have separate realms in the Outer Planes, but Tyr has (or had) a separate realm for his Faerunian aspect too, so that doesn't necessarily mean much. Tyr and Loviatar even have different power levels on different worlds. The 1e Manual of the Planes said that Takhisis and Tiamat were the same, but this was made more doubtful in 2nd edition, and even more doubtful in 3rd edition when the cosmologies separated (which is another issue altogether).
I like to think that when Marduk cut Tiamat in half as in Babylonian mythology, half became Tiamat and half became Takhisis. Or perhaps her portfolio was divided between a previously unnamed daughter of Io and an unrelated goddess from another world.
Nice.
As for Paladine/Bahamut and Tiamat/Takhisis, this is a very, very old argument and the truth is that no one knows whether they're the same deities or not. They have separate realms in the Outer Planes, but Tyr has (or had) a separate realm for his Faerunian aspect too, so that doesn't necessarily mean much. Tyr and Loviatar even have different power levels on different worlds. The 1e Manual of the Planes said that Takhisis and Tiamat were the same, but this was made more doubtful in 2nd edition, and even more doubtful in 3rd edition when the cosmologies separated (which is another issue altogether).
I like to think that when Marduk cut Tiamat in half as in Babylonian mythology, half became Tiamat and half became Takhisis. Or perhaps her portfolio was divided between a previously unnamed daughter of Io and an unrelated goddess from another world.
So they're the same.
Based on the novel"Tymora's Luck" I don't think Bahamut and Paladine are the same either.
I loved that book at the time since Finder and Grubb were my favorites back in the day. I am not fond of all that 2E/Planscape connects every product line together stuff now so the novel may lose some magic now. At the time I read the book it was pure geeky, gold :D .
(The Finder's Stone Trilogy is still my favorite series.)
In the book Paladine becomes mortal to maintain the balance because Takhisis became mortal. Takhisis dies in mortal form and is no longer a god in Krynn space nor is Paladine though he still is alive but mortal.
I like to think that when Marduk cut Tiamat in half as in Babylonian mythology, half became Tiamat and half became Takhisis.
Yay! Rip is back!
And a cameo by you, Gray, ain't half-bad either.
Now all we need is a post by Shemmy and the pan-dimensional gang is all here. :D
Tiamet IS Takhisis, and also is not (just because they say she is not).
I rationalize this by saying both Tiamet and Takhisis are Avatars of an even greater and older primordial Draconic deity, who have been seperated from the original 'essence' for so long they have both achieved self-will, and are no longer part of the original.
What do they have in common, that makes them one and the same being? Besides looking similiar, they are completly different. Takhisis is the ruler over hell/abyss in Krynspace (nothing about uncle Asmo, devils and such), she is the child of the High God (together with Gilean and Paladine) with some other gods as her children, and she is more than the godess of evil dragons, she is the patron deity of evil in Krynn itself (because, well, the High God gave birth to three gods with the three principles Good, Neutrality, Evil, and the last wasn't only meant as being the speciality of Dragons or some such things) and leads all evil gods. All of them created Krynn. She is the patron deity of evil dragons, because they are evil and she is the big boss of evil *shruggs*. But that little five headed dragon is not her only form, for humans she is the Dark Queen, looking like an astonishing and kind of dark beauty. I am sure for a party with elves she even puts some Spock-ears on. She is whatever you want the Queen of Darkness should look like, or what she wants to look like for you. Besides, she is dead, as far as I remember Tiamat isn't.
-It is interesting to have conclusive evidence, now, that both Shar and Mask are multispheric deities. The Erevis Cale trilogy alluded to it, in the Fane of Shadows, but it is now confirmed as fact. This, I think, adds an interesting new dynamic to Shar. It also takes away from the accepted creation myth-as-fact, which I think is a good thing.
Yes, I brought that up - the thing about the Fane of Shadows, and most people just 'pish-poshed' my theories...
But I do have a 90% accuracy rating. :P
Anyhow, I like it as well, but I'm thinking that Mask's 'uncertain background' leads me to think 'unceratin parentage'. Obviously NOT mortal-born, but supposedly 'surprising'.
And how is it that Shar allows him to continue to exist, and they seem to operate and many of the same worlds?
Her SON, perhaps?
We'd have the whole 'Vhaeraun vs Lolth' thing going on again, and maybe Vharaun's passing was neccessary to build a Shar vs Mask meta-plot in FR, without seeming redundant with the other two.
Besides, "Child of the Night" just sounds too cool to pass-up. :D
Also, Shar being multi-spheric doesn't neccessarily invalidate the FR creation myths - it merely broadens the playing field. If selune is also multi-spheric (and well she should be), then the creation myth extends to the entire mutli-verse, and not just Realmspace.
At the very least, you can say they played the parts in creating the Prime Material Plane (which includes all worlds), just as Ahriman and Jazirian created the Outer Planes (the Great Ring).
Now all we need are the details behind what created the Inner Planes (Elemental, Para-Elemental, and Psuedo-Elemental), and we have a detailed list of how the cosmos was created. It probably has something to do with the Elemental Lords, and Demons (who seem to be a form of chaos-infused Elemental in 4e) and the Elemental Princes of Evil.
Of course, this 'bumps-up' Ao in the greater scheme of things, unless we just say that 'Ao' took the place of THE ONE'* in the Faerûnian versions of the myth.
*THE ONE = 'the big kahuna' - basically every monotheistic religion's 'All Powerful Supreme Being'.
You know... the guy who said "let their be STUFF". :D
Anyhow, I like it as well, but I'm thinking that Mask's 'uncertain background' ;eads me to think 'unceratin parentage'. Obviously NOT morta-born, but supposedly 'surprising'.
And how is it that Shar allows him to continue to exist, and they seem to operate and many of the same worlds?
Her SON, perhaps?
-This is confirmed, in a wishy-washy, perhaps literal, perhaps metaphorical interpretation.
We'd have the whole 'Vhaeraun vs Lolth' thing going on again, and maybe Vharaun's passing was neccessary to build a Shar vs Mask meta-plot in FR, without seeming redundant with the other two.
-Shar and Mask have been rivals, in the sense that they often compete with each other for worshipers. However,
Show
this is no longer the case, with Mask being absorbed and subsumed by Shar. Mask's allusion to keeping a secret from Shar, however, seems to indicate that he hasn't been fully subsumed. But, from 1,374 DR to 1,479 DR, Mask does not exist
Alright MT, please explain. Tiamat/Takhisis get yes (no) and Bahamut /Paladine get a straight up “NO.”
I thought I did exactly that, in that same post.
The fact that just about EVERYONE identifies Takhsis with Tiamet, but very few Paladine with Bahamut, shows you just how much the former have in common, and how little the latter do.
You need to trust in the law of averages - if the majority of people agree something is true, then it most likely is, and if a majority do not believe in something, then it is most likely false. When polling large groups of people, very rarely is the consensus ever wrong.
What do they have in common, that makes them one and the same being?
The fact that she looks exactly like an ICONIC D&D creature/god. Or do you think Hickman and Weiss's 'creation' happens to look just like Tiamet by pure coincidence? They based her on Tiamet, so no matter how much anyone - including them - argues that she is not, the truth is that she is... it's that simple.
They made a few changes to her, is all. Nothing original there - nearly every muti-spheric power is a little different from prime world to prime world.
Besides, she is dead, as far as I remember Tiamat isn't.
IN D&D, that is absolutely meaningless.
Just ask Orcus. ;)
[Other Posters]And isn't Kiputyttö a FR god too?[/Other Posters]
-Joni
If you look through the Desert of Desolation material, it becomes quite apparent that the Imaskari at least had knowlege of MANY powers not native to the Realms, and some of the survivor states even chose to pay homage to their deities (ostensibly to avoid any further 'divine wrath').
It seems to me, that at some point there was an 'open door' policy for the divine, which was changed by Ao at a later time (or perhaps was a side-effect of the Imaskari Godwall - one Ao chose to keep around for awhile?)
It would make sense that when a world is young, and 'in need' of gods, ones from other spheres would be invited in and allowed to attempt to develop their following there. Failed ones would leave, while others would 'catch-on'. In time, these 'versions' of the gods may seem very different from the orignals, but that would just be their mortal worshippers placing these 'bits of flavor' on the divine - its really all just the way the religions chose to spin things.
Also a god's DvR isn't neccessarily it's real power-level - it could just be the level it is able to function at within one particular sphere (based upon it's power-base there, and worshippers). Eventually, as a world matures, most of those interloper gods will have 'gone native', while the world develops new gods of it's own (like the Faerûnian Pantheon). That could just be the natural order of things - mix-in some 'old gods' with some 'new blood' and you get a world's gods.
Perhaps it isn't just Ao - maybe every world is supposed to have a 'caretaker' that allows free divine immigration for a time, and then locks the door (requiring 'special permssion' from that point on). This would 'jump-start' religions on the world to develop, and eventually the world would have it's own unique ones, as mortals ascend and older gods fall by the way side (or manage to stick-around, by evolving along with their churchs).
Her SON, perhaps?
I like the Silver Surfer possibility more, Shar having children, nah
Also, Shar being multi-spheric doesn't neccessarily invalidate the FR creation myths - it merely broadens the playing field. If selune is also multi-spheric (and well she should be), then the creation myth extends to the entire mutli-verse, and not just Realmspace.
true
isn't Selune similar to Celene of Oerth?
in my cosmology which has only three types of pantheons/power groups without the crystal spheres the myth does extend to other planets, but the creation myths are never entirely true
At the very least, you can say they played the parts in creating the Prime Material Plane (which includes all worlds), just as Ahriman and Jazirian created the Outer Planes (the Great Ring).
They didn't, these places existed before their split, they just changed Baator, Celestia, and maybe Mechanus a bit
it's possible that Merrshaulk is the evil Serpent of Chaos, and that there is a CG version (in my cosmology it's a phoenix-like creature, the spark that started the creation, and Selune reflects that energy)
Now all we need are the details behind what created the Inner Planes (Elemental, Para-Elemental, and Psuedo-Elemental), and we have a detailed list of how the cosmos was created. It probably has something to do with the Elemental Lords, and Demons (who seem to be a form of chaos-infused Elemental in 4e) and the Elemental Princes of Evil.
demon-elementals,
imo, elements are the creation of the Ethereal Plane, no one created them, they were the tools of the ancient spirits of the Ethereal, like fey, genies or creatures like dharum suhn, and the primordial universe was their playground
isn't Selune similar to Celene of Oerth?
Nope. Selune is Toril's moon. Celene is an elven political state in the Flanaess (on Oerth).
Rip, was the omission of Mielikki intentional?
[Other Posters]And isn't Kiputyttö a FR god too?[/Other Posters]
-Joni
Kiputytto was killed and absorbed by Talona. See the entry for "Talona" in Faiths & Avatars.
I'll note further that, in Ed's original "Down-to-Earth Divinity" from DRAGON #54, Talona is Kiputytto renamed.