On it's own it isn't that bad. The problems with it only comes up when it tries to be the Realms of old. Sure there are small problems but everything has those and I can forgive those and fix them to my taste.
I like the old Realms better and will probably still mostly play in them, but I wouldn't mind playing in the New Realms once in a awhile. (Though I have liked almost every setting TSR or WotC came out with even Birthright had it's good points).
My lament is that they destroyed the old Realms for this setting which I think would have been better off as it's own setting and not built on the ashes of a great setting.
"Might have to look at it myself, whenever it is I actually get the chance to leave the house anyway, to see if I can put it into perspective and appreciate it on some level. Not that I didn't intend to anyway, but life's gotten complex in a lot of ways of late, and opportunities for leisure aren't coming up much. At least I haven't lost my weekly gaming sessions. Yet anyway. :D
My lament is that they destroyed the old Realms for this setting which I think would have been better off as it's own setting and not built on the ashes of a great setting.
I fully agree with this assessment. They made a new setting under the name of an old one and used certain bits out of the old one so that (some) people would not realize that it is brand new. (There are threads in this forum where people are discussing why - and advocating that - the FR "mindset" should change for 4e etc - this is exactly the signature of a brand new "setting".) I understand their motivation though, they are a company and they need to make money and earn their lives. They need to come up with new things to sell products, but they want to use the brand name so that the new product has an easy entry into the market. And I think it will work for them - the young audiences that they are targeting at are likely to buy the stuff...
What is probably not so smart is the way they did this. When your marketing guys tell you "we need this and that to keep being competitive in the market" and you decide to deliver those things, you try to do it with least impact on your current audience. Admittedly this is not easy, but not that difficult either. Unfortunately they failed.
They probably don't care though. If the new audience is larger (not necessarily by number, but by purchasing power) than the old one and the money keeps on flowing, no problem. They would care if they thought this would damage their reputation enough to cause impact on the sales.
And there comes your real chance to show your disapproval. (If you honestly disapprove.) Older players tend to be the DM - tell your new players the games do not make use of the new products. If you are members of a small hobby group, tell to the newcomers not to rely on this company for consistency. When you encounter initiates to gaming, who were inspired by fantasy literature, tell them not to play in the new FR, since it is not like in those books that they read - tell them heroes and gods and lands can disappear with the blink of an eye. If the newcomers say they want to play hack-and-slash type of thing, tell them to buy the newest computer game instead - they are as fun and don't need a consistent backstory.
Thus make an impact on the new customers that they are targetting. Tell the younger audience that this show has already jumped the shark and guide them to watch only the earlier seasons or simply watch something else. Finally if you don't like what they given you, please fight off the temptation to buy their products (which happens because you are interested in what Drizzt is doing in his latest novel, because you want to see how the FRPG comes out, etc. etc.).
Thus show that reputation should mean something for a company.
I, for one, will be finishing out the novel series I'm in the middle of already, and after that, WotC won't see another dime of my money.
I agree - on its own, the new FR isn't bad, but FR, the real FR, isn't just "not bad", it's great. 4e FR isn't great, not by a long shot, and it's insulting that it's been marketed as a continuation of FR. They basically destroyed Shakespeare to give us Michael Bay, and that, to me, is unforgivable.
I was thinking Dr. Seuss, but that's just me.
:P
A land that I played a lot in…
Some wizards came in, turned on the damn blender!
And now I have no place to plot in.
Is Drizzt finally dead? :P
Nope. And Cattibrie and Artemis are probably around, too.
There once was a realms forgotten…
A land that I played a lot in…
Some wizards came in, turned on the damn blender!
And now I have no place to plot in.
I'm an Eberron man myself but I hear rumblings they might mess that setting up too even though they said they wouldn't. I've heard that Wizards supposedly said they wouldn't change the Realms also, so if that's true all the more reason to be upset.
I'm an Eberron man myself but I hear rumblings they might mess that setting up too even though they said they wouldn't. I've heard that Wizards supposedly said they wouldn't change the Realms also, so if that's true all the more reason to be upset.
Well, they did say the Spellplague traveled through all the planes. I imagine that means everything WotC has is about to get blendered.
Geeze, they even expunged the Crinti from Dambrath.
forests burn over time, it is the natural cycle.Though the discussion really doesn't need to go that direction, instead I'll say this, "thanks for sharing
True but rarely does a purging fire makes a pine forest into a elm forest.
I fully agree with this assessment. They made a new setting under the name of an old one and used certain bits out of the old one so that (some) people would not realize that it is brand new. (There are threads in this forum where people are discussing why - and advocating that - the FR "mindset" should change for 4e etc - this is exactly the signature of a brand new "setting".)
A bit strawman, my dear. This is not even about the new stuff per se, but old problems.
Also, it is a new era, not a new setting. This is an example of this annoying mindset, very judgemental ('not kosher'?).
Thus show that reputation should mean something for a company.
To sum up, then: Your advice is that we should all of us lie wholeheartedly to our friends and potential gamers in an effort to punish Wizards of the Coast?
For I can find no truth in your claims about what WotC has done. Only a despicable request to kill the Realms and the game of Dungeons and Dragons.
Boycotting usually acompishes anything but the end of a product my advice is use what you want and ignore what you don't.
And there comes your real chance to show your disapproval. (If you honestly disapprove.) Older players tend to be the DM - tell your new players the games do not make use of the new products. If you are members of a small hobby group, tell to the newcomers not to rely on this company for consistency. When you encounter initiates to gaming, who were inspired by fantasy literature, tell them not to play in the new FR, since it is not like in those books that they read - tell them heroes and gods and lands can disappear with the blink of an eye. If the newcomers say they want to play hack-and-slash type of thing, tell them to buy the newest computer game instead - they are as fun and don't need a consistent backstory.
Thus make an impact on the new customers that they are targetting. Tell the younger audience that this show has already jumped the shark and guide them to watch only the earlier seasons or simply watch something else. Finally if you don't like what they given you, please fight off the temptation to buy their products (which happens because you are interested in what Drizzt is doing in his latest novel, because you want to see how the FRPG comes out, etc. etc.).
In order for such a boycott to be effective, you would need to not only boycott the 4E FR, but 4th edition as a whole, because Wizards isn't producing enough FR books to make a dent in the game at all.
The idea that you should do such a thing, however, is a bit like saying you should stop people from watching Star Wars Episode 1, 2, and 3 because Lucas introduced midichlorians and ruined his universe that we all knew and loved from before (not to mention Jar Jar). It robs the new generation of thrills uniquely their own.
No, I would say: if *YOU* don't like what they've written, *YOU* don't have to buy their products. Voting with your feet is one thing. You should do so if you don't like it. But please see my signature: it's a bit foolish to attack it with full armor on, and to dissuade others who might enjoy it from enjoying it.
Hello UpsetFRfan,
To sum up, then: Your advice is that we should all of us lie wholeheartedly to our friends and potential gamers in an effort to punish Wizards of the Coast?
For I can find no truth in your claims about what WotC has done. Only a despicable request to kill the Realms and the game of Dungeons and Dragons.
Hi,
I don't suggest that anybody lie. I personally don't. Whatever I wrote, I wholeheartedly believe in. If you don't find any truth in what I think, then you are free to not to follow my suggestion.
Actually I find it a little insulting that you suggest that I am lying or asking anyone else to lie. I hope this is just a misunderstanding.
Cheers,
There once was a realms forgotten…
A land that I played a lot in…
Some wizards came in, turned on the damn blender!
And now I have no place to plot in.
You missed a few syllables. That should look like this:
There once was a Realms twas Forgotten
That was a darned fine place to plot in
Some Wizards came in
Their robes reeking of Gin,
And now the whole thing is quite rotten!
Sentiment appreciated. Poetic Meter and Poetic form restored. Have a good day.
-There's a Forgotten Realms Humor thread I started to post those.
-Hurray for swarthy limericks!
-There's a Forgotten Realms Humor thread I started to post those.
Can you give us a link? I'm working on a Realms version of that Discovery Channel commercial song that would fit well there, I think...
You missed a few syllables. That should look like this:
There once was a Realms twas Forgotten
That was a darned fine place to plot in
Some Wizards came in
Their robes reeking of Gin,
And now the whole thing is quite rotten!
Sentiment appreciated. Poetic Meter and Poetic form restored. Have a good day.
Bravo!You'll have to forgive me. I was at two hours of sleep and working on the fly. Simply had to come up with something quick--unlike my brain at the time.
Though...damn, am I getting slow? Hmph.
Either way, anyone that wants to "boycott" the 4e Realms can do it easily enough. Simply don't subscribe to DDi. The moment they see all the concrete subscribers not show up, they will have no other choice than to start paper publishing again.
Personaly I see little point to buying 4th edition at all. Sure I can enjoy the game with the right group of people( though even the worst RPG system can be fun w/ the right group of people) I just don't like where the game is going. I am not that big of a fan of the mechanics or the new lore surrounding the game(both the base game and the FR). But I can still play without the books, and that is and always will be the biggest problem for RPGs is that a group of people only needs one set of books.
I don't begrudge the people who like it buying it(though sometimes I don't understand it) as I hope they don't begrudge the people who don't buy it. The people I really don't get it are the people who hate it and buy it...that is just confusing.
The people I really don't get it are the people who hate it and buy it...that is just confusing.
-Agreed.
Yes but the funny thing is that many of the haters are the ones buying the book and supporting WOTCs decision. It is the "collector" mentality that gamers havethat is similar to comicbook fans. Some people feel the need for a "complete" set of something even they may loathe parts of that "set".
That I can atleast comprehend slightly...I have a friend who is a big fan of a system. Recently except for the main book any book put out by the designersd every book put out has been useless. My friend spends time complaining about how useless it the books are. Yet when asked why he continues to buy them he responds with," I want to continue to support the system so it does not go away."...that I just don't get at all.
It's how many gamers are. That is why the purists of a setting cannot win. Because their are so many collectors out there and will buy somthing even if they hate it. WOTC's decision for the change was so they can bring in new fans. I think they realized many of the haters will still buy the books. So much of this online complaining is futile. This is just my opinion.
Online complaining isn't futile...it is the reason for alot of the changes...squeaky wheel gets the oil after all.
Complainging is pointless because like I said many hater will buy the book just so they can come on these boards and have something more to complain about. It is total nonsense I know but I am sure it is what WOTC is banking on. Like my sig(link) people said the same crap about 3E but it sold really well. 4E will do well just like 3E IMO. Maybe better. Who knows? One thing we all know is gamers are nuts. ;)
In order for such a boycott to be effective, you would need to not only boycott the 4E FR, but 4th edition as a whole, because Wizards isn't producing enough FR books to make a dent in the game at all.
I am sure they will make some products given that they want to make the best use of their initial investment. Not necessarily books, but perhaps web articles that you need to pay for or something. So no, I am not thinking about boycotting the 4th edition, only the FR4e.
The idea that you should do such a thing, however, is a bit like saying you should stop people from watching Star Wars Episode 1, 2, and 3 because Lucas introduced midichlorians and ruined his universe that we all knew and loved from before (not to mention Jar Jar). It robs the new generation of thrills uniquely their own.
I think using midi-chlorians was a terrible idea, since this idea does not fit in well with the philosopy/tune of the original story. However they play a rather small role in the whole SW mythology. If you don't like them, you can simply forget about them. However Lucas still tries his best to provide consistency. It is still the same setting, you watch Anakin turning Sith, the Clone Wars happening, Yoda going on exile etc. He tries to catch all the threads of the original trilogy, not simply cover some threads and for others introduce a deus-ex-machina.
No, I would say: if *YOU* don't like what they've written, *YOU* don't have to buy their products. Voting with your feet is one thing. You should do so if you don't like it. But please see my signature: it's a bit foolish to attack it with full armor on, and to dissuade others who might enjoy it from enjoying it.
I see your point. However I don't think just me not buying is enough - as I wrote in my original post, I am sure that they see many of the old-timers as expendable already. (I am indeed expandable, I have already turned 30 and should probably forget about gaming already.
) However the way they do it is not respectable. Honestly they could have done a much better job - just parsing through some of the discussions on these forums you can read so many "backward-friendly" ideas that would have accomplished the same end results. (Note that I am even willing to accept those end-results.) My characters from the old FR could still be on the same world that my daughter and her friends will play in (hopefully one day, she is too young yet).Unfortunately, they did not. And I don't want this to go just like that. Furthermore, if I don't want other people (like my daughter) to get upset the same way in the future, I think something should be done. I am not going to war, I am just using my democratic rights. I am just trying to remind them that their reputation is also important for their sales.
I like Wizards, I honestly do. And although I don't like the new FR, I still want it to live - I still want this nice world to keep vibrant. But Wizards should still get a lesson from this ordeal. It is like bringing up your child: You love her, you want her to be happy, but you also want her to be an honest, good person. So sometimes when she makes "mistakes", you send her back to her room for her to think about what was wrong in her actions. That's all...
And even more amusing is that they keep repeating the same things over and over again. A large number of the active threads on this board are about how bad the new Realms are. At this point we know that a large number of people are dissatisfied, and why, but they make sure to repeat it over and over again. I think so that the few of us who actually like the changes, or at least accept it, will come to our senses. Although what we are supposed to do when that happens, I don't know.
I think that the better gauge of the new Realms' popularity is how many people spend $45-$100 on the new books, rather than how many people post on a free messageboards about it.
I think that the better gauge of the new Realms' popularity is how many people spend $45-$100 on the new books, rather than how many people post on a free messageboards about it.
I'm already over $100 and I haven't gotten the MM or any of the modules yet.
And even more amusing is that they keep repeating the same things over and over again. A large number of the active threads on this board are about how bad the new Realms are. At this point we know that a large number of people are dissatisfied, and why, but they make sure to repeat it over and over again. I think so that the few of us who actually like the changes, or at least accept it, will come to our senses. Although what we are supposed to do when that happens, I don't know.
Reminds me of the old day when people repeatly complained about:
1) There are too many powerful NPCs my PC feels so small.
or
2)There are too many gods
or
3) Etc.
People will use the board to complain..it isn't beccesary a bad thing. It is bettewr they do this then something more destructive. I use it at times for that too after all.
And well sorry but it definitly seems to have a effect...as those complaints were caterted to.
IMO I think I would have made the jump in time farther in the future, perhaps an elven generation or three. Not even the oldest elves of 4e would have been alive during 3rd Ed, it would have been considered the golden age that exists in legend only.
Reminds me of the old day when people repeatly complained about:
1) There are too many powerful NPCs my PC feels so small.
or
2)There are too many gods
or
3) Etc.
People will use the board to complain..it isn't beccesary a bad thing. It is bettewr they do this then something more destructive. I use it at times for that too after all.
And well sorry but it definitly seems to have a effect...as those complaints were caterted to.
Ok, first look at what that complaining got you, they "fixed" the problems, and created new problems in the process.
Second, after all the insults to their creativity, intelligence, sexual preferences and parentage, why would they even spend five minutes reading the negative stuff? If you insulted how I did my job, and were a customer, I promise you, you wouldn't like the service you got after that. (I have worked a lot of service jobs, and when someone has questioned how I did my work, I became very disinclined to give them any service at all).
Right now a lot of the negative stuff I read is like political talking points, they have little to do with the topic at hand (in this case, what has happened, is happening in the Realms), and more to do with whatever that individuals agenda is. Again, the old Realms are gone, this new book, and these new rules are what we will have going forward, they aren't going to go back now, so we should discuss how to make lemonade out of, what some of you perceive as, lemons, rather than keep saying over and over again that it sucks, and I won't buy it.
Ok, first look at what that complaining got you, they "fixed" the problems, and created new problems in the process.
Second, after all the insults to their creativity, intelligence, sexual preferences and parentage, why would they even spend five minutes reading the negative stuff? If you insulted how I did my job, and were a customer, I promise you, you wouldn't like the service you got after that. (I have worked a lot of service jobs, and when someone has questioned how I did my work, I became very disinclined to give them any service at all).
Right now a lot of the negative stuff I read is like political talking points, they have little to do with the topic at hand (in this case, what has happened, is happening in the Realms), and more to do with whatever that individuals agenda is. Again, the old Realms are gone, this new book, and these new rules are what we will have going forward, they aren't going to go back now, so we should discuss how to make lemonade out of, what some of you perceive as, lemons, rather than keep saying over and over again that it sucks, and I won't buy it.
First...I never made those complaints. So not only did I get stuck with them 'correcting problems' that never existed I also have to deal with the many new problems they have made fixing those 'problems'.
Second...A service job is very different then their job(having work in service all my life). But again I don't insult their creativity...I do critquie it. And I never made any reference to their sexual preference or parentage(I never even seen that). A service person has no control over the product or service they sell. They are the creators of the product...if they can't take critism rather constructive or not then they look for jobs in some other industry. Hopefuly they might even learn something and actual get better at there jobs( though I really don't see that happening because no matter how polite or honest the critism is they're attitude is you are wrong and they are right.)
Sure it is...and? My point was that this is nothing new to the boards...actualy most of people who complaining about the Realms have been doing it politly and constructively for the most part...unlike most of the people who whined for the changes that happened. So learn to live with it.
First..[...]
Never meant to imply you personally, and the parentage issue is a bit over the top I admit. I am just saying that at some point it stops being constructive criticism and becomes just noise. And if they feel insulted, then they will stop listening to the ideas here, and that means the little bit of input from these boards that might make the next edition better, will be lost in the general din. The designers ideas have to come from somewhere, and all constant complaining does is to make them not want to listen to what we have to say here.
A real world example is the 24 news stations, if you are on the right (politically) then you probably don't watch MSNBC since they of course are all liberals and wrong on every subject, the same for if you are on the left with FOX news. But since you stopped watching, since you feel they are insulting you and never right, then you might miss something important and/or interesting that hasn't been on your preferred station.
Never meant to imply you personally, and the parentage issue is a bit over the top I admit. I am just saying that at some point it stops being constructive criticism and becomes just noise. And if they feel insulted, then they will stop listening to the ideas here, and that means the little bit of input from these boards that might make the next edition better, will be lost in the general din. The designers ideas have to come from somewhere, and all constant complaining does is to make them not want to listen to what we have to say here.
A real world example is the 24 news stations, if you are on the right (politically) then you probably don't watch MSNBC since they of course are all liberals and wrong on every subject, the same for if you are on the left with FOX news. But since you stopped watching, since you feel they are insulting you and never right, then you might miss something important and/or interesting that hasn't been on your preferred station.
I agree but then again people need a place to vent. I guess what I am trying to say is that it isn't really anything new. It won't go away and it isn't neccessary as bad thing in that the people cloest to them don't have to hear it constantly (
).I guess I ckinda see complaininmg about people complaing kinda pointless.
I guess I ckinda see complaininmg about people complaing kinda pointless.
I agree for the most part. And a lot of the complaining I can sympathize with, but some just comes across as ranting and disruptive. For instance in a thread discussing some new bit of 4e lore, it is one thing for someone to give a reasoned argument why it is wrong or how it could be changed, and another to post that "4e got everything wrong, and I will never buy another WotC product again" which there are a few people out there still doing.