Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 PortugueseDAce Aug 03, 2011 16:27:47	Hello guys, My gaming group has reached the 12th lvl, and after their last adventure they gathered serveral rumors, and they decided to investigate Fort Morninglord. (We're playing in 4e) I gathered infos on this Fort, read the Spec LFR Adventure the Morninglord Laughter then developed my own "story". This should be something like a "side trek" for my PCs, but as I was running a skill challenge, last week, I noticed that the quite peculiar history and background of the Fort... really intrigued all my players. therefore i'm planning to enlarge this sidetrek, trying to lure them in a more complicated plot. I'm here to ask you if you could help me with this plot. up to now my group explored Elturel (they have never been in Elturgard before), enjoyed the light of the Companion Sun (my group's warlord worships Amaunator) and talked with the Chief of Paladins of Torm, to request an audience with the High Observer. the audience was denied, but they somewhat convinced the Champion of their good intentions. He spoke with the High Observer but he still negated the access to the Fort. Tomorrow they will Break the Law, they are too curious about this Fort. And the Warlord is wandering why a nation under the "flag" of Amaunator is led by Torm Paladins. I think this is a good question. And the answer i have in mind is: the Church of Amaunator was weak, or had to hide something so terrible that only the powerful followers of Torm could take care of. i read about the three-faced-heresy and i thought that maybe it is come that brief time in which only one side of the sun is visible. but this time it will be a Dusk-only-time. Lathander himself was the aspect of highnoon, "taken over" by Amaunator, right? (i know they are the same god, but let's assume they're not) but what if Daelegoth Orndeir, casting the eternal sun, was trying to achieve something? what if the eternal sun was only an omen of the impending shift between the two deities? something was buried/hatched inside the fort when the Eternal Sun was created. someone among the ranks of the followers of Amaunator discovered the truth and asked torm's paladins for help. when those paladins began to investigate the fort, something attacked them, trapping them inside *forever*. the high observer took the leadership of everything, denying the entrance to the fort (as the Morninglord Laughter adventure suggests, every sentient being that comes near the fort's walls sets free something evil trapped inside) inside the fort, buried deep underground, there is a cocoon. but what's inside this monstrosity? maybe the dusk-face-entity? maybe Daelegoth Orndeir himself, waiting for his ascension to divinity? what if the sun was only created to give to this cocoon the *double* sunlight it needed to grow? Now my PCs want to approach the fort. at any cost. (their curiosity is outstanding). the high observer knows the truth, but he can't admit it publicly without creating a scandal, so he has to keep an eye on my adventurers. they eventually will break in the fort, coming in contact with the garrison... do you have any suggestion, critique, or anything that could help me with this plot? thanks in advance. Ace
#2 pruano Aug 04, 2011 6:50:34	Why use such a small font? Its dificult to read.
#3 PortugueseDAce Aug 04, 2011 14:03:41	I copied/pasted it, my fault. is this any better?
#4 Mr_Miscellany Aug 04, 2011 15:38:58	I think the Dusk-Faced-Entity would be perfect to put in the cocoon.   Perhaps Daelegoth Orndeir, in his zeal over worshipping Lathander/Aumanator, discovered that the third divine face of this deity/deities was something evil or perhaps something to be avoided.   So maybe he found a way to trap the essence of the divinity in the cocoon and the reason the second sun was created was to prefent this divine form from beginning the slow process of transforming and—after centuries or millennia later—taking over for Aumanator? Sounds like a fun campaign, Ace!
#5 PortugueseDAce Aug 04, 2011 16:13:19	I think the Dusk-Faced-Entity would be perfect to put in the cocoon.   Perhaps Daelegoth Orndeir, in his zeal over worshipping Lathander/Aumanator, discovered that the third divine face of this deity/deities was something evil or perhaps something to be avoided.   So maybe he found a way to trap the essence of the divinity in the cocoon and the reason the second sun was created was to prefent this divine form from beginning the slow process of transforming and—after centuries or millennia later—taking over for Aumanator? Sounds like a fun campaign, Ace! Thanks, Miscellany! I was wondering... is Daelegoth still alive? is he doing something? or he  is just another of those missing NPCs in 4e? because, if he's missing... i could place him inside the cocoon, as an avatar of the dusk faced entity... he will "suck" all the light from the companion, like it was a giant ball of fuel, just to grow as a full avatar of dusk. it would be a nice fight :E if he's not missing... then my player could reach him just to ask him the real reason behind the companion sun... but this would give totally another twist to the adventure :E
#6 Jorunhast Aug 04, 2011 17:38:56	Be careful with how you approach the Risen Sun Heresy / Lathander-to-Amaunator problem.  There are several things about it that don't really add up.  And there's been a LOT of speculation as to what really happened, without much real data. - when the original Amaunator stopped being worshipped by the Netherese, he actually died and his corpse was actually floating around in the Astral. - Lathander may have arisen from a different pantheon from Amaunator;  it's been suggested that since Lathander was worshipped by the people of Athalantar, and they worshipped some Talfiric gods, that Lathander himself is of Netherese origin, but this isn't certain by any means.  Lathander may have been imported into the Talfiric, considering that he does not appear in the original Netherese pantheon of old Netheril. In addition to the Talfiric gods, Athalantar had shrines to several "long forgotten now" but locally-worshipped deities at the time. - the Risen Sun Heresy may actually still be heretical, in the sense that Lathander is most likely pretending to be Amaunator, stolen his name, etc... in order to gain power in certain areas. - the whole thing about a single god morphing into different gods/aspects is intriguing as a concept, but Amaunator doesn't really follow it:  "dusk" is literally held by another, and entirely separate, deity altogether, and has been for millenia (Jergal -> Myrkyl -> Cyric??);  Lathander represents "morning" but he also represents a great deal more, and further, he was "alive" while Amanuator's corpse was floating in the Astral;  and Amaunator, as "high sun" wasn't just about the sun, he was also about law and legal contracts... this new Amaunator doesn't exactly jive with the old Amaunator's intents and goals. - there's nothing AFAIK that suggests Daelegoth Orndeir cast the Eternal Sun to prevent something evil from rising, rather, it appears it was done more to support his heretical claims and draw people into "warping" the religion of Lathander. - Lathander may have been forced by his own worshippers to take on the mantle of Amaunator, but it's not really logically consistent. Honestly, IMO opinion you'd be better off saying that the cocoon is holding a demon or evil celestial agent of the current deity of "dusk".  This being could have corrupted Daelegoth Orndeir with the untruths of the Risen Heresy, who in turn corrupted Lathander and the entire religion.  Some of the adventure could be the PCs finding all sorts of clues that show how glaringly inconsistent the whole thing is... and how Daelegoth Orndeir screwed up BIG time.  At the end of the day, you could do something clever that reverts Lathander back to his uncorrupted state and perhaps revive the real Amaunator (by reviving his corpse in the Astral) to fight off the deity of "dusk".
#7 the_darkangel Aug 05, 2011 19:50:37	I have to research it but Amaunator never really died... in a sense he became Lathander, something to do with the Dawn Cataclysm. If I'm not mistaken there were two occasions where Lathander caused some upheaval; the Dawn Cataclysm being one of them. l
#8 Jorunhast Aug 06, 2011 13:19:17	I have to research it but Amaunator never really died... in a sense he became Lathander, something to do with the Dawn Cataclysm. If I'm not mistaken there were two occasions where Lathander caused some upheaval; the Dawn Cataclysm being one of them. Amaunator died.  His corpse floats around in the Astral.  That's canon. If you're suggesting that Amaunator was reborn as Lathander because of the Dawn Cataclysm, that wouldn't be correct... Lathander caused several important things to happen during the Dawn Cataclysm, and the lore would suggest that he was around for a good while before the DC happened.  The time of the DC is unclear, although it's said to be post-Athalantar (circa 230s DR), because Lathander was worshipped there and Tyche had yet not split into two goddesses, but before the destruction of Myth Drannor (714 DR).
#9 the_darkangel Aug 06, 2011 19:55:27	I have to research it but Amaunator never really died... in a sense he became Lathander, something to do with the Dawn Cataclysm. If I'm not mistaken there were two occasions where Lathander caused some upheaval; the Dawn Cataclysm being one of them. Amaunator died.  His corpse floats around in the Astral.  That's canon. If you're suggesting that Amaunator was reborn as Lathander because of the Dawn Cataclysm, that wouldn't be correct... Lathander caused several important things to happen during the Dawn Cataclysm, and the lore would suggest that he was around for a good while before the DC happened.  The time of the DC is unclear, although it's said to be post-Athalantar (circa 230s DR), because Lathander was worshipped there and Tyche had yet not split into two goddesses, but before the destruction of Myth Drannor (714 DR). His corpse may have been floating in the astral sea but it wouldn't be the first time something was written that conflicted with future writings/lore. I always took Lathander as a split personality of Amaunator. Hence in "canon," they say many worships thought he was "reborn" as Lathander. The reason his body floated in the astral sea was because he lost much of his worshipers with Netheril’s fall. He floated around the astral see and slowly came back into the realms pantheon as Lathander. A lot of lore, if not most of it, support the idea that Amaunator and Lathander are one and the same.
#10 Jorunhast Aug 06, 2011 22:33:38	His corpse may have been floating in the astral sea but it wouldn't be the first time something was written that conflicted with future writings/lore. I always took Lathander as a split personality of Amaunator. Hence in "canon," they say many worships thought he was "reborn" as Lathander. The reason his body floated in the astral sea was because he lost much of his worshipers with Netheril’s fall. He floated around the astral see and slowly came back into the realms pantheon as Lathander. A lot of lore, if not most of it, support the idea that Amaunator and Lathander are one and the same. Not really.  If you're referring to the two separate heretical beliefs at the end of 3E, which have to be patched together in a sort of sloppy way, I'd hardly call that "a lot of lore" in support of it. If Lathander was originally Amaunator, why didn't he re-absorb the corpse of Amaunator upon his "rebirth"?  Corpses retain deific energy, as we know from other dead deities like Ulutiu, and it would only make sense for Lathander to "eat" his old corpse in order to regain some of his lost energy and power. Too much supposition and speculation taking place for it to be true, IMO.  No, what we have in 4E is Lathander pretending to be the old Amaunator and not quite getting it exactly right.
#11 the_darkangel Aug 06, 2011 23:20:06	His corpse may have been floating in the astral sea but it wouldn't be the first time something was written that conflicted with future writings/lore. I always took Lathander as a split personality of Amaunator. Hence in "canon," they say many worships thought he was "reborn" as Lathander. The reason his body floated in the astral sea was because he lost much of his worshipers with Netheril’s fall. He floated around the astral see and slowly came back into the realms pantheon as Lathander. A lot of lore, if not most of it, support the idea that Amaunator and Lathander are one and the same. Not really.  If you're referring to the two separate heretical beliefs at the end of 3E, which have to be patched together in a sort of sloppy way, I'd hardly call that "a lot of lore" in support of it. If Lathander was originally Amaunator, why didn't he re-absorb the corpse of Amaunator upon his "rebirth"?  Corpses retain deific energy, as we know from other dead deities like Ulutiu, and it would only make sense for Lathander to "eat" his old corpse in order to regain some of his lost energy and power. Too much supposition and speculation taking place for it to be true, IMO.  No, what we have in 4E is Lathander pretending to be the old Amaunator and not quite getting it exactly right. There is info... but I'm just too lazy to dig through the books to locate the exact passages to what I'm referring to. I hear what you’re saying but maybe this will explain what I mean in short form... Bane was dead... a part of him merged with his son and when Bane grew powerful enough he came forth reborn. Bain still had worshipers that allowed an essence of him to remain even though his body too, lay dead in the astral sea at one point. So based on my interoperation of the lore read… Amaunator died from little worship when Netheril was destroyed (no worshipers = a God can die). As per you: “Amaunator died.  His corpse floats around in the Astral.  That's canon.” Agreed, however, enough worshipers remained alive and continued to still worship Amaunator (also canon). They don’t say one way or the other but only that Lathander arose, (some worshipers speculated it was the essence of Amaunator which again, is also canon). The avatar or essence or whatever you would like to call it, became Lathander (a God that would have been an aspect of Amuanator and more tangible to the nations after Netheril). Eventually In a similar fashion like Bane, Amaunator also reemerged as more followers of Amaunator came to believe he was returning. With the spellplague and a century gone by, Amaunator comes back via Lathander. Again this is my interoperation but I don't feel it's an exact stretch to presume this either based on what little lore is made available on the subject.
#12 Jorunhast Aug 06, 2011 23:41:56	His corpse may have been floating in the astral sea but it wouldn't be the first time something was written that conflicted with future writings/lore. I always took Lathander as a split personality of Amaunator. Hence in "canon," they say many worships thought he was "reborn" as Lathander. The reason his body floated in the astral sea was because he lost much of his worshipers with Netheril’s fall. He floated around the astral see and slowly came back into the realms pantheon as Lathander. A lot of lore, if not most of it, support the idea that Amaunator and Lathander are one and the same. Not really.  If you're referring to the two separate heretical beliefs at the end of 3E, which have to be patched together in a sort of sloppy way, I'd hardly call that "a lot of lore" in support of it. If Lathander was originally Amaunator, why didn't he re-absorb the corpse of Amaunator upon his "rebirth"?  Corpses retain deific energy, as we know from other dead deities like Ulutiu, and it would only make sense for Lathander to "eat" his old corpse in order to regain some of his lost energy and power. Too much supposition and speculation taking place for it to be true, IMO.  No, what we have in 4E is Lathander pretending to be the old Amaunator and not quite getting it exactly right. There is info... but I'm just too lazy to dig through the books to locate the exact passages to what I'm referring to. I hear what you’re saying but maybe this will explain what I mean in short form... Bane was dead... a part of him merged with his son and when Bane grew powerful enough he came forth reborn. Bain still had worshipers that allowed an essence of him to remain even though his body too, lay dead in the astral sea at one point. Amaunator is not known to have had a son, in order for him to pull off an "Iyachtu Xvim".  Also, you have to remember that the people of Netheril felt betrayed by Amaunator to the point that they all intentionally stopped worshipping him. Amaunator died from little worship when Netheril was destroyed (no worshipers = a God can die). As per you: “Amaunator died.  His corpse floats around in the Astral.  That's canon.” Agreed, however, enough worshipers remained alive and continued to still worship Amaunator (also canon). They don’t say one way or the other but only that Lathander arose, (some worshipers speculated it was the essence of Amaunator which again, is also canon). The avatar or essence or whatever you would like to call it, became Lathander (a God that would have been an aspect of Amuanator and more tangible to the nations after Netheril). Amaunator didn't die because his followers all died.  Amaunator's worshippers all turned away from him intentionally, causing him to perish.  The other talfiric deities did fine in the Netherese pantheon, and spread due to the post-Netheril diaspora.  Amaunator had no one left who wanted to worship him.  That's an important distinction.  They stopped worshipping him, and took up worship of other deities. Additionally, we don't know exactly when Lathander "arose" or why.  Logically, it makes far more sense that Lathander was a local deity of some other pantheon than the Talfiric, and he merged into that pantheon following the Netherese diaspora.   Eventually In a similar fashion like Bane, Amaunator also reemerged as more followers of Amaunator came to believe he was returning. With the spellplague and a century gone by, Amaunator comes back via Lathander. That's part of one of the heresies of Lathander.  It's important to note that Lathander himself was silent on the matter of the two heresies in his church at the end of 3E.  He neither confirmed nor denied them, but left his priests to their own devices for speculation.
#13 Jorunhast Aug 07, 2011 0:54:24	...but what if Daelegoth Orndeir, casting the eternal sun, was trying to achieve something? what if the eternal sun was only an omen of the impending shift between the two deities? something was buried/hatched inside the fort when the Eternal Sun was created. someone among the ranks of the followers of Amaunator discovered the truth and asked torm's paladins for help. Getting back to the original post/questions, something else occurred to me: Originally, Daelegoth cast the Eternal Sun over the city of Elversult, not Elturel.  He wanted the faithful to come from all over the North to see a great miracle (in an attempt to show commoners "proof" of the heresy he was promoting), and probably because his own church was in Elversult at the time, that's where he cast Amaunator's Eternal Sun. But is the casting of a spell, even an epic seed spell, "proof" of any belief?  I suppose one might argue that Lathander could have said "no" when granting the spell, but it's just as easy to say that Daelegoth wanted to force the issue. In any case, in 4E the "eternal" sun no longer in its original location.  For some unknown reason, it was moved from Elversult to Elturel.  We don't know how, by whom, why, or when it was moved.  This is especially odd because neither Lathander nor Amaunator (to our knowledge so far) have much of a connection to Elturel.  Additionally, Elturgard -as a relatively new 4E nation- is dedicated to Torm not Amaunator.  Fort "Morninglord" would appear to refer to Lanthander's old appellation, though the mystery of what trapped the paladins inside it isn't really revealed in the LFR adventure.  So... lots of holes and hooks to do with as you wish, it would seem...
#14 the_darkangel Aug 07, 2011 2:14:42	I didn't mean "son" literally, it was just an example of a “dead god coming back to life” o0 … And you’re right it “doesn’t state when Lathander arose, only that he came after Amuanthor’s death” so correct me if I’m wrong but how do you get he might come from a different pantheon if all written speculation, speculates Lathander and Amaunator are one and the same? Lost empires: DC 20: “Sunmasters believe that Lathander is the incarnation or continuation of Amaunator, the old god of the sun, who was a powerful deity in the time of ancient Netheril. They also believe that Lathander’s power is ascending, and that he will soon reincarnate himself as Amaunator, claiming the mantle of lordship over the rest of the gods. Their views are considered somewhat heretical by many other Lathanderites.” Races of Faerun: Lathander: God of spring, dawn, birth, youth, vitality, athletics. Neutral Good. Amaunator (also called At'ar): Former god of bureaucracy, law, order, the sun. Faded from lack of worship. Reappears as an evolving aspect of Lathander. 4E: Though some say he died (Amanuthor), he actually transformed into Lathander, and was worshiped  under that name for centuries before finally reclaiming both his name and his mission. Misc: At some point between 1385 the end of the spellplague, Lathander disappeared and was replaced by the resurrected Amaunator, presumably confirming the truth of the theory that the two were one and the same.Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun:This order was a group of sun priests who (correctly) believed Lathander to secretly be the incarnation of Amaunator. We can argue speculated specifics till the cows come home but per lore: Amuanathor (lawful neutral, gets booted by worshipers), he transformed into Lathander (neutral good, causes a few events), ascends back to Amuanathor and is now Lawful good.
#15 Jorunhast Aug 07, 2011 3:20:19	I didn't mean "son" literally, it was just an example of a “dead god coming back to life” o0 … And you’re right it “doesn’t state when Lathander arose, only that he came after Amuanthor’s death” so correct me if I’m wrong but how do you get he might come from a different pantheon if all written speculation, speculates Lathander and Amaunator are one and the same? I've been researching this a long time.  The speculation that Lathander and Amaunator are the same is all from "sources" that are post-heresy, and are therefore dubious.  When certain things are presented as fact, but you still have factual inconsistencies, then something is out of joint. You have to remember that the current "Faerunian Pantheon" that you see in late 3E and in 4E is actually the combination (due to merging, gods killing each other, deity deaths, interloper deities showing up or leaving, etc) of at least 5-6 previous pantheons from separate human cultures. The "modern" pantheon has gods in it from all over the place, because when cultures clash or merge, their pantheons also tend to war or merge.  What we have now is a mixture of the old Coramshite, Jhaamdathan, Netherese, Northern, Talfiric, and Yuir pantheons. All of your sources, with the exception of Races of Faerun, are quoting beliefs of certain clergy or of local populations, not actual fact as concerns the deities in question.  And with Races of Faerun, it suffers from what researchers typically call "sloppy shorthand" editing, probably to save space.  Here's an example of what I mean: ...Both groups venerated the same pantheon, which included gods such as Amaunator (Lathander), Jannath (Chauntea), Jergal, Kozah (Talos), Moander, Mystryl (Mystra), Selûne, Shar, and Targus (Garagos). The clergy... What's wrong with this?  Well, it's sloppy.  Targus (Netherese) and Garagos (Jhaamdathan) were never the same deity, they had similar portfolios but origins in two distinct pantheons.  When those cultures merged and their pantheons clashed, one deity won out over the other.  Note that Tempus (Talfiric) ultimately wins out, so he is the god we see in the modern pantheon.  That whole book is like this, filled with sloppy shorthand.  Those deities came from separate cultures originally, had their own mythic stories and so on, but if you took it as printed, you'd be ignoring a ton of history and facts.  One might even make the mistaken assumption that "oh, it's just different names for the same being." We can argue speculated specifics till the cows come home but per lore: Amuanathor (lawful neutral, gets booted by worshipers), he transformed into Lathander (neutral good, causes a few events), ascends back to Amuanathor and is now Lawful good. Again, this is only a belief of the current worshippers, and may not in fact be true.
#16 Diffan Aug 10, 2011 10:06:16	What's wrong with this?  Well, it's sloppy.  Targus (Netherese) and Garagos (Jhaamdathan) were never the same deity, they had similar portfolios but origins in two distinct pantheons.  When those cultures merged and their pantheons clashed, one deity won out over the other.  Note that Tempus (Talfiric) ultimately wins out, so he is the god we see in the modern pantheon.  That whole book is like this, filled with sloppy shorthand.  Those deities came from separate cultures originally, had their own mythic stories and so on, but if you took it as printed, you'd be ignoring a ton of history and facts.  One might even make the mistaken assumption that "oh, it's just different names for the same being." Hmmm....if I were a deity that just killed off another deity over an area that I'm relatively unknown in or often looked at with distain then a good bet I'll attempt to approach the previous followers as a being similar (if not identical) to the being I just murdered. This might gain me their worship and thus more power. It's a big reason why Talos/Gruumsh are one in the same. I don't think it's really sloppy unless your firmly tied to what 1 specific source book says and the belief that it's more valid than another source book. Further, I feel it's good that Gods and deities have large continuity issues because it keeps it open for one's own personal interpretation of what took place, etc...   Again, this is only a belief of the current worshippers, and may not in fact be true.  And yet what's important is what your character knows, and having the established belief that Amaunator was actually Lathander makes it truth. To say otherwise is to say that your character is a great diviner or oracle OR your Metagaming. But to the topic at hand, I'm curious what the paladins of Torm are hiding in Fort Morninglord or (more importanly) what you have in store for them? I'm thinking it has to be real bad for such secrecy, possibly holding back a very bad entity or possibily even a plage of sorts that could infect the other communitys and spread.
#17 Jorunhast Aug 10, 2011 11:01:37	Hmmm....if I were a deity that just killed off another deity over an area that I'm relatively unknown in or often looked at with distain then a good bet I'll attempt to approach the previous followers as a being similar (if not identical) to the being I just murdered. This might gain me their worship and thus more power. It's a big reason why Talos/Gruumsh are one in the same. I don't think it's really sloppy unless your firmly tied to what 1 specific source book says and the belief that it's more valid than another source book. Further, I feel it's good that Gods and deities have large continuity issues because it keeps it open for one's own personal interpretation of what took place, etc... ROFL... welcome to 4E Realms, where sloppy writing and poor continuity are "design features"!  Seriously, I don't know why I bother anymore.
#18 Diffan Aug 10, 2011 11:47:18	Hmmm....if I were a deity that just killed off another deity over an area that I'm relatively unknown in or often looked at with distain then a good bet I'll attempt to approach the previous followers as a being similar (if not identical) to the being I just murdered. This might gain me their worship and thus more power. It's a big reason why Talos/Gruumsh are one in the same. I don't think it's really sloppy unless your firmly tied to what 1 specific source book says and the belief that it's more valid than another source book. Further, I feel it's good that Gods and deities have large continuity issues because it keeps it open for one's own personal interpretation of what took place, etc... ROFL... welcome to 4E Realms, where sloppy writing and poor continuity are "design features"!  Seriously, I don't know why I bother anymore. Ya know, I really really make an attempt to NOT be sarcastic and try to put a good spin on other people's feelings towards the supplements. I respect your feelings on the matter of continuity and the fact that the how's and why's aren't set in stone or don't mesh exactly with previous lore. You don't like that and that's ok. You see this as flawed, sloppy, poor, etc and your entitled to your opinion. I, OTOH, see it as one person's perspective of the setting and (espically) with the topics of deities, I don't pretend to know every little detail or how it actually is supposed to be. Nor would I for EXACTLY these reasons. Because these things can change at the hands of a few people. And the snarky comments aside, while Dark Angel provided quite a few statements that give credence to his views and why he feels this way, you doubt his sources outright while providing little in the way of sources for your own claims other than (well that supplement came out during such-and-such year, thus making it dubious). In the framework of the game and world, people of the Realms often do believe things that might not be factually true. Maybe you feel everyone on Faerûn should be privy to the information in the sourcebooks and game supplements but in a fictionally "living, breathing world" it doesn't work that way. Gods are so far beyond the comprehension of the people of the planet I doubt they could even make heads or tails of something like a 3-faced heresy (or the actual equivalent). Furthermore, what exactly does the arguement between Amaunator being a reincarnated Lathander (who was in turn reincarnated from old Amaunator) further this thead's goal of fleshing out the adventure?
#19 Jorunhast Aug 10, 2011 12:44:22	...Furthermore, what exactly does the arguement between Amaunator being a reincarnated Lathander (who was in turn reincarnated from old Amaunator) further this thead's goal of fleshing out the adventure? You know, back in the old days, which weren't that long ago, people used to appreciate it when really detailed lore and even inconsistencies in lore were pointed out.  But quite frankly, you've convinced me that I really should just stop.  We're now attacked for it, which quite frankly is a big reason why all the lore-enthusiasts have left.  Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that we are driven away. I was attempting to show not only the OP but also Dark Angel that sometimes the "truths" we consider -as a DM- can be explained in a totally different way than the currently prevailing view.  When you see things from a wider perspective, it can lead to all sorts of interesting adventure seeds for one's home game.  In relaying what I know of the lore about Amaunator, I was not suggesting that my way was the only right way to view what happened to Lathander, but it was a way to explain things in an alternate way that was also totally consistent with older lore.  Perhaps the OP or someone else could use the information I presented (which is factual lore, NOT opinion), and have a wholly different outcome for Amaunator, changing up what players expect as "truth". But you know what?  Screw it.  I'm freaking DONE. Enjoy whatever it is you play.
#20 Diffan Aug 10, 2011 13:47:47	...Furthermore, what exactly does the arguement between Amaunator being a reincarnated Lathander (who was in turn reincarnated from old Amaunator) further this thead's goal of fleshing out the adventure? You know, back in the old days, which weren't that long ago, people used to appreciate it when really detailed lore and even inconsistencies in lore were pointed out.  But quite frankly, you've convinced me that I really should just stop.  We're now attacked for it, which quite frankly is a big reason why all the lore-enthusiasts have left.  Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that we are driven away. I don't think it was so much the detailed lore, but any deviation from it was seen as wrong (as in, your wrong and doing it wrong) and that to me was an elitist attitude that I hated. Keep in mind that I'm saying on the whole, not saying anyone specifically. And if the facts aren't right or the consistancy of previous lore contradicts with current lore, few feel that they can both be right or enjoy it as such. But I don't put that much credit on consistancy in a fantasy campaign. For me, it doesn't have to be perfect (nothing really is, but you get my point). I'm ok with one supplement saying that the river Delembyr is 5 miles from the Dire Wood while another saying the Dire Wood boarders the Delimbyr river and parts of it run through it. Unless it's a matter of placing a fort, a part of the Realms that my players are going to adventure through, try to buy, or build on, then it doesn't really affect what I'm doing. I was attempting to show not only the OP but also Dark Angel that sometimes the "truths" we consider -as a DM- can be explained in a totally different way than the currently prevailing view.  When you see things from a wider perspective, it can lead to all sorts of interesting adventure seeds for one's home game.  In relaying what I know of the lore about Amaunator, I was not suggesting that my way was the only right way to view what happened to Lathander, but it was a way to explain things in an alternate way that was also totally consistent with older lore.  Perhaps the OP or someone else could use the information I presented (which is factual lore, NOT opinion), and have a wholly different outcome for Amaunator, changing up what players expect as "truth". I had the presumption that it was your opinion based on one type of lore, and that it held more validity than what Darkangel (regardless of other lore presented) was trying to say. I just don't see the problem with using both or choosing between the two opinions that Amaunator was Lathander reincarnated or Lathander is another deity all together. Lore is sketchy on the subject (Lathander was close-lipped as well) so who's to say truthfully? Which is a good thing in my Book because it helps the DM decide for himself without having to be wrong (if that DM care about being wrong in the first place). But my presumption may have been hasty and lost your intent somewhere along the way. The communication error is probably on my side and I'll attempt to hold my judgement without a close look at the context. But you know what?  Screw it.  I'm freaking DONE. Enjoy whatever it is you play. I went over my initial post and it does come off as rather harsh, and that wasn't my intent. I wasn't attempting to be insulting or hurtful and if you've taken offense to my post, my apologies. I'm not the sort to create further division within the community and I feel I have done so here. Your wellspring of lore has undoubtedly help the community at large and I hope you further enlighten us with that knowledge. Again, I am sorry if what I said offended you and hope that we can set this argument aside for the benefit of the discussion at hand.
#21 Mr_Miscellany Aug 11, 2011 10:30:01	I'm quite happy to take a different tack than Diffan. ROFL... welcome to 4E Realms, where sloppy writing and poor continuity are "design features"!  Seriously, I don't know why I bother anymore. This sort of garbage talk is really unnecessary. And for the record: the concept of "divine uncertainty" is one several Realms designers (Eric Boyd and Ed Greenwood come to mind) have stated is a good thing for the Realms. I happen to agree. Jorunhast, people nowadays, just as in "the old days", like discussions about lore inconsistencies.
#22 ORC_Ragnar Aug 11, 2011 10:42:51	Please refrain from personal attacks and flaming, these are violations of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg... You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violations, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
#23 Mr_Miscellany Aug 11, 2011 11:06:44	So, let's try again: ROFL... welcome to 4E Realms, where sloppy writing and poor continuity are "design features"!  Seriously, I don't know why I bother anymore. If you actually count this as trying, then I wish you wouldn't. I for one happen to like discussions where multiple interpretations of the Realms are welcome and respected. This is because there does not, in fact, need to be a “one right answer” when it comes to discussions of divinity in the Realms. The more ideas you have bouncing around, the more oportunities the rest of us have to borrow them for our own Realms campaigns and to explore Realmslore from all angles. Your responses to Dark Angel come off—to me at least—as flawed (the lore from 4E is hardly "what some people [in the Realms] believe"). As well, barely tolerable of other people’s interpretations of Realmslore and highly critical of Realms products.