midnight was never a proper goddess... she was too focused in specific projects, like a human, an american human at that
. i think gods should have a more diffuse approach, a plan should be far-reaching, with multiple players acted upon every so subtly; or else u r just a glorified bully, and for a goddess of mysteries subtlety should have been everything!mystra 2.0 she was i think the best of the lot... neutral, even evil at times as befits a deity of magic, her plans were ambigious - up untill TOT, wherein she blundered and paid for her mistake-, her stance alluring yet dangerous, her servants many and varried
mystryl; she was too good, even worse than midnight... she was at one time apearently revered as a goddess of lovers, even beggars loved her as a 'mother'... she couldnt deny humans anything hence all the tragedy of netheril happened.
so thats what i think.. would love to hear your input
That just seems like a really odd thing to say...
LOL... okay, I just haveto ask. Why do you think Mystra was like an "American"?
That just seems like a really odd thing to say...
Indeed! And not just any Mystra, but Midnight even! As an American, I find that very insulting!
But Im not sure what Mystra reborn would be like. I was thinking that Elminster would be the new Mystra, but i think theres a rule or something that say that Mystra must be a female, so maybe Elminster's Daughter? Or perhaps Elminster will have another sex change?
that said... among the fearunian deities she was easily among my favourite deities ever...
her self-confidence, single-minded focus and especially in her first years as a deity her 'i-know-whats-best-for-everyone' attidude;
that said... among the fearunian deities she was easily among my favourite deities ever...
Ah, gotcha.
My preference would be for a time-travel scenario that does a re-set of everything to before the Time of Troubles.
Having said that, my favorite time reading Mystra was in the book, "Elminster, Making of a Mage." so that answers the debate for me. :P
Well, it leaves two options, really. Elminster replacing his lost deity/lover, or that particulary Mystra coming back.
Honestly, though, I like that magic now exists with or without any given god.
My preference would be for a time-travel scenario that does a re-set of everything to before the Time of Troubles.
We all know that isn't going to happen--which is also why they specifically leave the option open-ended for 4e.
Never say never. After all, I would never have imagined that they'd do what they did to the Realms.
Imagine how good it would be, though. They could have de-canonized the novels, and people could have used what they wanted and discarded the rest. We'd be rid of Midnight and Cyric, and Mystra could have been censured by Ao (without ever anyone learning of Ao) for really poor care of her portfolios (letting Cyric on Dweomerheart, honestly!) and for merging with a stupid human. All the deities could be pulled back more into a far-distant, minimal (or nearly negligible) interactions. Bhaal, Myrkul, and the original Bane would be back. The gods (and Ao) would remember the "future that never happened" and no one on Faerun would ever know.
Magic would undergo a transformation (for 4E), with no reason ever given to any Faerunian, and the gods would be remain silent, highly distant and act as -actual- deities rather than superpowerful beings with brain damage. All Chosen of every deity would instantly lose those special abilities and powers, as well as the "immediate personal connections" to their deities. They would be like everyone else, just a difference in levels. The only explanation given could be something incredibly mysterious, like "there was a great unweaving." It could refer to the Weave, as both the original Weave and the Shadow Weave appear to have discorporated (and people must re-learn magic, per 4E), but it would also refer to the unweaving of history.
The human Ariel Manx (Midnight) would be killed at lvl 3 for adventuring solo in a high level area, and remembered by no one but her family. Human Cyric at lvl 3 would die after being stabbed in the back by a lvl 1 street courtesan, then placed into Myrkul's wall of the faithless to be tortured for eternity. All of the assassins that would've been killed by absorption into Bhaal... they'd still be alive and having fun in Bhaal's name. Kelemvor would remain a mercenary, dying in some minor conflict. Adon would remain a minor, insignificant Sune-worshipper.
People could pick and choose the "future" novel elements that they liked most for their own world and discard the rest. None of it would be canon, except for 1E. Put in elements from Cunningham's books, take only part of Salvatore's books, or none.
With novel canon officially separated from game canon, authors would be free to write in any period of Faerun's history, including the (current) alternate future timeline. They would sell the idea as "we really wanted DMs to be completely free in picking and choosing what history, etc. would go into their own games. So only 1E is common canon for both the game and the books."
For those who actually like the 4E Realms as they are, it's still a possible future. Just not a certain one, but an alternate one.
It could still happen. It can still happen.
My preference would be for a time-travel scenario that does a re-set of everything to before the Time of Troubles.
We all know that isn't going to happen--which is also why they specifically leave the option open-ended for 4e.
---
I would agree with sf on Mystryl. I prefer her openness for humanity more than her self-superiority. Yet, I would definitely like her less human.
I dont know they might do a time reset thing, it seems to be a popular thing to do, just look at the new Star Trek, personaly I hope they dont go that route, I see it as a big cop out, the Realms should continue to change and evolve over time, not go back to the way it was. What I would like to see though is some guides for different time periods, like they do with the Star Wars RPG, so you could have a sourcebook set for pre-Time of Troubles, or 1000 years after the Spellplague and Cyric is now free or what ever. I love the Arcane Age suplements they did back in 2e. It would be great if they did something like that for 4e.
It could still happen. It can still happen.
It just might, Thats the way they are going with the new Dark Sun.
It could still happen. It can still happen.
Honey, we both know I have no issues with your ideas on this point. All as you'd like to see it unfold would be grand.
But, no. It is not going to happen. And only will if a DM wants to make it happen.
As stated, 4e left time travel as open-ended for this very purpose. On top of that, Chronomancy has been around for a long time now. Despite whatever restrictions Mystra may have put on it, El' apparently had his own little gateways through time at some point.
And, of course...1...2...3...SPELLPLAGUE!!
I love the Arcane Age suplements they did back in 2e. It would be great if they did something like that for 4e.
And why the hell would they do that?
----
BTW, apologies to the OP...let's carry on--ON topic.
And why the hell would they do that?
----
To make money of course! You telling me you wouldnt buy Sourcebooks focusing on different eras of the Realms!? I know I would. That would make alot of people happy, You could still have the Spellplague, or for those who cant stand all that crap you could do the orginal setting, or during the Crown Wars or what ever. I would like to see something like that, but not them saying ok Elminster goes back in time and changes everything from happening, that would just feel like a total cop out to me. Things shouldnt be just undone like it never happened, I think it makes the Realms feel more alive. Thats one of the things i liked about the whole Spellplague thing, they kept the timeline going, they could of easily just said ok none of this stuff ever happened and its like this now and always was, but they made an effort to explain in game why certain things changed, and I applaud them for that.
But any way back to topic, I dont know how the new Mystra will be. We can assume that she'll be a mortal raised up like Midnight. Im not too sure about the original Mystra (or the 2nd if you count Mystryl as the first). Im guessing she was a mortal that was chosen of Mystryl. Im not sure though about that. Reading the Age of Netheril trilogy, it doesnt really say if she was mortal or not, but it was implied that she was Mystryl's daughter, and both knew that she would be taking over for her mother soon, So Mystra existed before Mystryl was destroyed, but its not clear if she was a mortal, or a demi goddess or perhaps a sort of clone of Mystryl? And thats another thing, was that Mystryl knew she was going to die and already had plans set in motion to pass the torch on, so to speak. And the same thing with Mystra during the Time of Troubles, so im assuming that Midnight also had some sort of contingency in place as well.
To make money of course!
Their plan to make money resulted in 4e, ya doorknob!!
HELLO!!
Sometimes I think you are simply on speed--rambling so fast that you don't have time to think, ponder, and elaborate on a previous thought before you run off on a new one.
Yes I do that sometimes trying to get a point across and then i think of a few other points while im at it. I try to not ramble to much. I usually like to keep it short and to the point, doesnt always work out that way for me though.
All the same, we are where we are. So, are you saying that, if the most recent Mystra had a contingency in place, you would like to see her return?
Otherwise, this thread continues to go rampant.
I dont necessarily want to see Midnight return, but the Realms needs a Mystra. I see it as a huge imbalance that theres curently no Mystra, itd be like if there was no war god, you got to have a war god in there. I see the gods as being personifications of various cosmic forces, like death, nature, destruction, creation, and so on, so you need somebody in there regulating these forces or things just devolve into Chaos, So yes i want a new Mystra or at least something like Selune or Corellon taking over the office of Magic.
If my wonderful "unweaving" plan never unfolds, then I'd like to see Mystra's son take over as the God of Magic. His name could be Mystran, and he could be more of magic's guardian and teacher in his goals and motives. Perhaps Elminster is feeding magic items to the Simbul because she is pregnant with the future God of Magic: Mystran.
If Greyhawk can have a male deity of magic, then why not Faerun?
On Topic, the WotC designers wanted to'free' the setting from the 'tyranny of Mystra'...Quote Richard Baker: She had to go...
I could care less...
Cheers!
They could have de-canonized the novels, and people could have used what they wanted and discarded the rest. We'd be rid of Midnight and Cyric, and Mystra could have been censured by Ao (without ever anyone learning of Ao) for really poor care of her portfolios (letting Cyric on Dweomerheart, honestly!) and for merging with a stupid human. All the deities could be pulled back more into a far-distant, minimal (or nearly negligible) interactions. Bhaal, Myrkul, and the original Bane would be back. The gods (and Ao) would remember the "future that never happened" and no one on Faerun would ever know.
This would be pretty much perfect, especially if novels were disconnected from Canon ala Eberron. I still wonder why they are being bold enough to "reset" things like novel canon in Dark Sun yet weren't brave enough to try it with FR for 4E. The Spellplague was one idea, but I honestly can't see anything wrong with their approach in Dark Sun where you draw a line in the same at some point in the products canon continuity, then declare that "This is where the campaign setting is". With other novels and such being potential future timelines.
I mean, while I don't mind the spellplague at all a reset to the ToT like this would be even better.
LOL... okay, I just haveto ask. Why do you think Mystra was like an "American"?
That just seems like a really odd thing to say...
Indeed! And not just any Mystra, but Midnight even! As an American, I find that very insulting!
But Im not sure what Mystra reborn would be like. I was thinking that Elminster would be the new Mystra, but i think theres a rule or something that say that Mystra must be a female, so maybe Elminster's Daughter? Or perhaps Elminster will have another sex change?
If i remember right, Alustriel (one of the seven daughter of Mystra) have some daughter, but they are almost never mentioned just her sons...so who knows what they can do :P (they have the blood of mystra and they are not disaphere too...)
If i remember right, Alustriel (one of the seven daughter of Mystra) have some daughter, but they are almost never mentioned just her sons...so who knows what they can do :P (they have the blood of mystra and they are not disaphere too...)
Somewhat coincidentally I found a thread talking about this over at CK last night. The suggestion (and only a suggestion) was that a Chosen had to be chosen by Mystra to inherit their parent's abilities or powers and even then it wouldn't really be inheriting, just having them bestowed in their own right. That isn't to say that they might not inherit serious aptitude from their parents. But, we have to remember that although Mystra had a significant part in their creation, something so...well.. comparatively pedestrian as their blood may well just be due to their physical parents the human Harper, Dornal Silverhand and the half-elven sorceress Elue Shundar (whose body Mystra occupied).
The actual thaumo-biological construction of the Chosen has always interested me.
I keep waiting for Halaster's madness to take root in Asmodeus, driving him to distraction long enough for the divine spark of Azuth to rip its way out of him.
Then Azuth appropriates half-mad Elminster, is driven doubly insane by Elminster's mind and Halaster's madness, so he explodes in a divine blast of awesome high above Shadowdale and his energy is absorbed by all the plaguewrought lands which starts the proto-Weave to healing itself.
Fast forward another one hundred years and the Weave is back. Soon after, a Mystryl-like goddess emerges to answer mage's prayers and govern magic once more.
...and a collective "Sark!" is heard all over the Realms as mages of all sorts are forced to relearn magic yet again.
So yeah...give my Mystryl.
I keep waiting for Halaster's madness to take root in Asmodeus, driving him to distraction long enough for the divine spark of Azuth to rip its way out of him.
Then Azuth appropriates half-mad Elminster, is driven doubly insane by Elminster's mind and Halaster's madness, so he explodes in a divine blast of awesome high above Shadowdale and his energy is absorbed by all the plaguewrought lands which starts the proto-Weave to healing itself.
Fast forward another one hundred years and the Weave is back. Soon after, a Mystryl-like goddess emerges to answer mage's prayers and govern magic once more.
...and a collective "Sark!" is heard all over the Realms as mages of all sorts are forced to relearn magic yet again.
So yeah...give my Mystryl.
Hehehe...i wait this too XD
I've always thought that the alignment of Mystryl/Mystra reflected the needs of the Weave at any one time, when time is viewed from a divine perspective.
Thus, Mystryl (aka Mystra 1.0) was chaotic neutral because the Weave sought to grow, evolve and change as quickly as possible. A chaotic alignment best reflected that because it is about not having restraints.
Mystra (Mystra 2.0) was lawful neutral as the Weave determined that magic now needed to be codified.
Midnight/Mystra (Mystra 3.0) was neutral good for two reasons: 1. the codified and controlled magic brought into being by Mystras 1.0 and 2.0 was now to be spread for the common weal of all folk on Toril and 2.0 this was the Weave's response to the plans of Shar and her Shadow Weave.
I see the Weave as being neutral and only concerned with its own development, spread and/or growth but the Mystryl/Mystra it presents outwardly reflects whatever it determines to be its primary need at any one time.
If you accept the above argument I would suggest that a chaotic neutral (or unaligned in 4E parlance) Mystra would make the best Mystra 4.0 because of the need for magic to grow once again.
and while mind you Mystryl was created by the light and dark magic elements of Both Lady Selune and LAdy Shar during one of their spats.
at the alignment spectrum a t the time, boths goddesses were chaotic and the combined essences of good and evil made her nuetral.
and as why , well lets just say kill the sitting deity of magic, is the biggest cliche in the realms.
the sitting deity og magic was offed 3 times.
Mystryl at the hands of Karsus
Mystra and the blade of Helm
Mystra/midnight at the combined force of Shar and cyric.
now I'll let someone else debate it, while I go and word it better in my head.... and let the dog outside
btw restore Helm to his full glory too..
Mystryl at the hands of Karsus
Technically, she died by her own hands, if we're to believe all that talk about sacrificing herself to prevent Karsus from gaining total control.
Mystra and the blade of Helm
Remembering this one always makes me grimace at how unbelievably stupid Mystra was portrayed (in that novel). That was a case of both overestimating herself and underestimating Helm at the same time; even pride shouldn't have blinded her to that extent. (So, on one level, this is another case of suicide
)btw restore Helm to his full glory too..
+1
I dont necessarily want to see Midnight return, but the Realms needs a Mystra. I see it as a huge imbalance that theres curently no Mystra, itd be like if there was no war god, you got to have a war god in there.
But as far as a new Mystra, I would like too see her more detached and neutral.
And there are almost as many 'People' who hate Cyric and think killing him off would be the greatest thing since the creation of Abeir-Toril. Me being one for example. And I'm one of the 'People' who actually liked Mystra the way she was, heroic and everything. I hope one of the novels will bring her back, no matter which version.
I should have put more emphasis on the words "around here". My apologies.
Death to Cyric!
I believe that is the title of Ed's next blockbuster novel.
As far as evil deities go Cyric has always(since the ToT anyway) been one of my favorites. The whole cyrinishad thing, pure genius. And it would of worked too if not for those meddleing kids and their dog!
But as far as a new Mystra, I would like too see her more detached and neutral.
I find that to be a complete contradiction, even if you do not yourself.
While the Cyrinishad may have been a stroke of "genius" to you, I see the stealing of the ToF by Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal to be equally brilliant. Both were drastic measures to obtain drastic power and ultimate control.
More or less, I think the reason that you--and the majority of others--are partial to Cyric is because he was made into a character. One that was more human and that you could identify with more than many of the others.
And, yes, Mystra was made a character, too--but, lets face it. She was nothing more than a tool after the ToT trilogy. Had she been as diabolical as he, things may be seen in a different light right now. As is, she just became someone to blame for interfering with everything--and, if not her, her Chosen.
My preference would be for a time-travel scenario that does a re-set of everything to before the Time of Troubles.
We all know that isn't going to happen--which is also why they specifically leave the option open-ended for 4e.
Never say never. After all, I would never have imagined that they'd do what they did to the Realms.
Imagine how good it would be, though. They could have de-canonized the novels, and people could have used what they wanted and discarded the rest. We'd be rid of Midnight and Cyric, and Mystra could have been censured by Ao (without ever anyone learning of Ao) for really poor care of her portfolios (letting Cyric on Dweomerheart, honestly!) and for merging with a stupid human. All the deities could be pulled back more into a far-distant, minimal (or nearly negligible) interactions. Bhaal, Myrkul, and the original Bane would be back. The gods (and Ao) would remember the "future that never happened" and no one on Faerun would ever know.
Magic would undergo a transformation (for 4E), with no reason ever given to any Faerunian, and the gods would be remain silent, highly distant and act as -actual- deities rather than superpowerful beings with brain damage. All Chosen of every deity would instantly lose those special abilities and powers, as well as the "immediate personal connections" to their deities. They would be like everyone else, just a difference in levels. The only explanation given could be something incredibly mysterious, like "there was a great unweaving." It could refer to the Weave, as both the original Weave and the Shadow Weave appear to have discorporated (and people must re-learn magic, per 4E), but it would also refer to the unweaving of history.
The human Ariel Manx (Midnight) would be killed at lvl 3 for adventuring solo in a high level area, and remembered by no one but her family. Human Cyric at lvl 3 would die after being stabbed in the back by a lvl 1 street courtesan, then placed into Myrkul's wall of the faithless to be tortured for eternity. All of the assassins that would've been killed by absorption into Bhaal... they'd still be alive and having fun in Bhaal's name. Kelemvor would remain a mercenary, dying in some minor conflict. Adon would remain a minor, insignificant Sune-worshipper.
People could pick and choose the "future" novel elements that they liked most for their own world and discard the rest. None of it would be canon, except for 1E. Put in elements from Cunningham's books, take only part of Salvatore's books, or none.
With novel canon officially separated from game canon, authors would be free to write in any period of Faerun's history, including the (current) alternate future timeline. They would sell the idea as "we really wanted DMs to be completely free in picking and choosing what history, etc. would go into their own games. So only 1E is common canon for both the game and the books."
For those who actually like the 4E Realms as they are, it's still a possible future. Just not a certain one, but an alternate one.
It could still happen. It can still happen.
I would change the underlined sections, and never make any mention of the heroes from the avatar books one way or the other, but this wouldn't necessarily be...terrible, hopefully.
When you say "like actual deities..." you seem rather presumptious. The gods of faerun are no more un-god-like in their behavior than the various pantheons of pre-christian europe. What does actual deity mean to you, exactly? Personally, I prefer my fantasy gods to remind me more of the Aesir, than of Yahweh.
And no, just no to the Chosen bit. Being made into exarchs is a much better fate than just nerfing them.
And, seriously, why erase the time of troubles, exactly? That's a lot of story telling gone. Erasing the last 100 years of faerun's history and dealing with Cyric somehow so it doesn't happen again, sure, if you really don't like the recent changes to that great a degree. I just don't see any need for getting rid of the Time of Troubles.
It could still happen. It can still happen.
It just might, Thats the way they are going with the new Dark Sun.
wait, what?
I missed an article somewhere, didn't I? Don't suppose you could elaborate, as a favor?
btw restore Helm to his full glory too..
I didn't mind Helm so much. He was ok.
Can we please have Torm die, though? I really, really hate Torm.
Also, Elturgard needs to burn. It's a threat to the safety and freedom of all free Faerunians.
Hmm, actually, lets keep him for now, I'll just use the church of Torm and Elturgard as a threat for my players to defeat in my next campaign. Maybe ending with the ressurection of Tyr and Helm, with Helm as a god under Tyr, who would again be a greater god.
But I'd be satisfied if Torm just died. Painfully.
It could still happen. It can still happen.
It just might, Thats the way they are going with the new Dark Sun.
wait, what?
I missed an article somewhere, didn't I? Don't suppose you could elaborate, as a favor?
I believe Silversword's referring to a blog post chat session with Richard Baker, in which Rich said that the DS campaign timeline is being started up a little while after the death of Tyr's king. The set-up is going to be designed so that the DM can incorporate the events of the novel if s/he so chooses, but doesn't have to; so, based on this, the DS novels aren't going to be considered canon, though they certainly can be in an individual's game.
EDIT: Found a transcript of sorts. Seems Rich was asked this during a live chat session and answered thusly:
As the time-line moves along in DS, will the overall story differ from the prism pentad or will the historical events be largely unchanged?
We view this new edition of Dark Sun as being more of a world snapshot than the start of a big new story arc. We wanted to create a snapshot in which events of the Prism Pentad *could* take place, but didn't have to, if the DM wants to tell a different story from this starting point.
Never say never.
Um...NEVER.
No disrespect, my man, but this is exactly why they have LFR--they know there cant be a rewind--only a reset.
I have a pet theory that Cyric was actually someone's "DM PC" that they couldn't resist turning into a deity through the ToT. He's just such a stupid and overpowered character.
Considering he managed to accomplish something that I still can't believe was possible - assassinating the god of magic in her own domain - it just seems that way doesn't it. Not to mention that despite having a habit of regularly murdering other gods nobody just killed him!
has problem with Tyr though, that elven turd of a paladin named Aribeth.
he deserved to die just becuase of her
I believe Silversword's referring to a blog post chat session with Richard Baker, in which Rich said that the DS campaign timeline is being started up a little while after the death of Tyr's king. The set-up is going to be designed so that the DM can incorporate the events of the novel if s/he so chooses, but doesn't have to; so, based on this, the DS novels aren't going to be considered canon, though they certainly can be in an individual's game.
EDIT: Found a transcript of sorts. Seems Rich was asked this during a live chat session and answered thusly:As the time-line moves along in DS, will the overall story differ from the prism pentad or will the historical events be largely unchanged?
We view this new edition of Dark Sun as being more of a world snapshot than the start of a big new story arc. We wanted to create a snapshot in which events of the Prism Pentad *could* take place, but didn't have to, if the DM wants to tell a different story from this starting point.
Kay. Thanks for the clarification.
blah. :P I really didn't need more to think about before playing desert Conan..er, I mean Dark Sun. :D
Seriously, though, doesn't seem like a bad move. Making novels cannon seems like it just creates headaches.
And some people hated the whole lot after they got chronic terminal brain damage after the ToT.
Maybe I haven't read enough post ToT novels, but in what way did they have chronic terminal brain damage, exactly?
wha?
I is confuse.
You're confused?! What the hell do you think it is like for ME!! Huh!?! I improperly quoted some chick only to have to go back and figure out what nutball actually quoted what I was quoting!!!
That **** takes time!!
My point was simple though: There will NEVER be a reset or rewind. We're here. And I only had to turn around and smack the kids in the backseat twice.
wha?
I is confuse.
You're confused?! What the hell do you think it is like for ME!! Huh!?! I improperly quoted some chick only to have to go back and figure out what nutball actually quoted what I was quoting!!!
That **** takes time!!
My point was simple though: There will NEVER be a reset or rewind. We're here. And I only had to turn around and smack the kids in the backseat twice.
I'm not sure you actually were quoting me there, however. I could be wrong, but your response doesn't sound like a response to anything I was saying.
Since 4E started, I've liked the idea that Elminster took up the mantle secretly.
Per the below line of conversation that took place on Page 4 of this thread:
Since 4E started, I've liked the idea that Elminster took up the mantle secretly.
IM with you on that one, it does make sense, Elminster did hold the largest portion if Mystras power out of the Chosen. I have a feeling the Elminster might achieve deity status in the upcoming novel Elminster Must Die. At first i was totally against the idea of El being a God, but most of the other gods were once mortal and risen up to godhood, and look at all the crap Els been through over the years, heck hes already pretty much a god already, or was before the Spellplague and all that. Really the only thing hes missing is some worshipers. Im all for starting up a Church of Elminster.
No, Corellon is secretly the god of magic now, and he changed his symbol from the crescent moon to an eight-pointed star to bring to mind the ones Mystra had in her holy symbol.
...Which would actually be the only reason for the change that would make ANY sort of sense whatsoever.
I have a feeling the Elminster might achieve deity status in the upcoming novel Elminster Must Die.
That would be the worst thing ever.
I have a feeling the Elminster might achieve deity status in the upcoming novel Elminster Must Die.
That would be the worst thing ever.
It won't happen (at least, not in EMD). If El was to be the new god of magic, they would've just mentioned it with the 4E FR release. Chris Perkins mentioned not too long ago that such an idea had been shot down when someone brought it up during the development of 4E FR. I can't see the designers changing their minds on such a major issue in such a short span. Ed certainly has no intentions of making El a deity. The things he has said in the past regarding Elminster's portrayal has made it clear he never wanted Elminster to be anything more than a reclusive, unpredictable sage. He didn't enjoy making El a Realms superhero; I think he'd be sick to his stomach if his hand was forced and he had to turn Elminster into a god.
No, Corellon is secretly the god of magic now, and he changed his symbol from the crescent moon to an eight-pointed star to bring to mind the ones Mystra had in her holy symbol.
...Which would actually be the only reason for the change that would make ANY sort of sense whatsoever.
That actualy makes alot sense, and would be a valid explanation for the symbol change. I just might go with that in my own Realms.
I have a feeling the Elminster might achieve deity status in the upcoming novel Elminster Must Die.
That would be the worst thing ever.
I could think of worse things! And i see what youre saying, i felt the same way at first, but after thinking on it some i thought, well why not? El certainly has the potential to be a god, Ao even makes a comment in one of the Shadows of the Avatar books (the second one i believe?) that perhaps El should of been the new Mystra instead of Midnight. Still being a god would totally be against everything that is Elminster, that was never his thing. But i think that would make it even more interesting if he was made a god, but didnt want to be one! Well i cant wait for that book to come out, I wont be disapointed if he doesnt become the new Mystra, but i wouldnt be suprised either. We''ll see how it goes.
follow the line of the box that contains my name. I didn't say that. I can tell you with absolute certainty that I didn't say that. Unfortunately errors involving what is and isn't in the quote box seems somewhat common these days.
the never say never was, i believe, therise.
You are absolutely correct, my man--and my humble apologies. It's this ****in' HTML editor that screws everything up.
The original comment by Therise occurred on page 2. You quoted it on page 4.
Quite honestly, I thought you were agreeing with her verbatim and launching into your own reasons why. I didn't realize that you were simply quoting her whole post.
So, first, my apologies again.
And, second, there is no need to quote an ENTIRE post 95% of the time!!!
IM with you on that one, it does make sense, Elminster did hold the largest portion if Mystras power out of the Chosen. I have a feeling the Elminster might achieve deity status in the upcoming novel Elminster Must Die. At first i was totally against the idea of El being a God, but most of the other gods were once mortal and risen up to godhood, and look at all the crap Els been through over the years, heck hes already pretty much a god already, or was before the Spellplague and all that. Really the only thing hes missing is some worshipers. Im all for starting up a Church of Elminster.
Must I explain this **** again?
El' is meant to bring Mystra back--not replace her!!
Case and point:
Chris Perkins mentioned not too long ago that such an idea had been shot down when someone brought it up during the development of 4E FR. I can't see the designers changing their minds on such a major issue in such a short span. Ed certainly has no intentions of making El a deity. The things he has said in the past regarding Elminster's portrayal has made it clear he never wanted Elminster to be anything more than a reclusive, unpredictable sage. He didn't enjoy making El a Realms superhero; I think he'd be sick to his stomach if his hand was forced and he had to turn Elminster into a god.
I could think of worse things! And i see what youre saying, i felt the same way at first, but after thinking on it some i thought, well why not?
Because he doesn't want to be a god, you noodle nut.
As he stood, he could have easily wiped out a number of deities--but didn't.
The one thing that has always remained true about El' through all FR changes is his devotion to Mystra. He lives to serve her and her will.
Make no mistake, his current state is completely due to that reason.
follow the line of the box that contains my name. I didn't say that. I can tell you with absolute certainty that I didn't say that. Unfortunately errors involving what is and isn't in the quote box seems somewhat common these days.
the never say never was, i believe, therise.
You are absolutely correct, my man--and my humble apologies. It's this ****in' HTML editor that screws everything up.
The original comment by Therise occurred on page 2. You quoted it on page 4.
Quite honestly, I thought you were agreeing with her verbatim and launching into your own reasons why. I didn't realize that you were simply quoting her whole post.
So, first, my apologies again.
And, second, there is no need to quote an ENTIRE post 95% of the time!!!IM with you on that one, it does make sense, Elminster did hold the largest portion if Mystras power out of the Chosen. I have a feeling the Elminster might achieve deity status in the upcoming novel Elminster Must Die. At first i was totally against the idea of El being a God, but most of the other gods were once mortal and risen up to godhood, and look at all the crap Els been through over the years, heck hes already pretty much a god already, or was before the Spellplague and all that. Really the only thing hes missing is some worshipers. Im all for starting up a Church of Elminster.
Must I explain this **** again?
El' is meant to bring Mystra back--not replace her!!
Case and point:Chris Perkins mentioned not too long ago that such an idea had been shot down when someone brought it up during the development of 4E FR. I can't see the designers changing their minds on such a major issue in such a short span. Ed certainly has no intentions of making El a deity. The things he has said in the past regarding Elminster's portrayal has made it clear he never wanted Elminster to be anything more than a reclusive, unpredictable sage. He didn't enjoy making El a Realms superhero; I think he'd be sick to his stomach if his hand was forced and he had to turn Elminster into a god.
I could think of worse things! And i see what youre saying, i felt the same way at first, but after thinking on it some i thought, well why not?
Because he doesn't want to be a god, you noodle nut.
As he stood, he could have easily wiped out a number of deities--but didn't.
The one thing that has always remained true about El' through all FR changes is his devotion to Mystra. He lives to serve her and her will.
Make no mistake, his current state is completely due to that reason.
You don't spend that much time completely devoted to someone, and then have them destroyed, and all the held dear crushed and reformed, and not go a bit wonky in the noodle.
also, it's cool. these things happen.
Regardless what they (designers of 4e Realms) decided on in the past things change. I wouldn’t be surprised if a new goddess of magic, not the weave but magic, arises in the not so distant future. The Simbul appears to be a good candidate to me and El would make an excellent follower.
No, Corellon is secretly the god of magic now, and he changed his symbol from the crescent moon to an eight-pointed star to bring to mind the ones Mystra had in her holy symbol.
...Which would actually be the only reason for the change that would make ANY sort of sense whatsoever.
That actualy makes alot sense, and would be a valid explanation for the symbol change. I just might go with that in my own Realms.
You might as well, I can't think of any other reason whatsoever at all, and they'll never explain it anyway, so why not.
It makes sense and fits, given all that he knows and has done over the centuries.
On the other hand, I'd also like to see Azuth rip his way out of Asmodeus and find Elminster, who holds the "key" to Azuth's ascencion to divinity.
On the other hand, I'd also like to see Azuth rip his way out of Asmodeus and find Elminster, who holds the "key" to Azuth's ascencion to divinity.
Azuth can happily stay dead for me and I doubt he will have the ability to do anything to Asmodeus (given that Asmodeus was a match for deities even before he consumed Azuth). I wish though they would actually do something with Asmodeous as he doesn't seem to do much in FR despite his deity status.
I wish though they would actually do something with Asmodeous as he doesn't seem to do much in FR despite his deity status.
Agreed. Right now he seems to be up to the same old routine - entice souls into wandering the path to their eternal damnation and lure both the virtuous and the malevolent to their doom. I really hope a future novel or adventure showcases his faithful in action, so that we can get a better look at the Ninth Lord and his cultists in 1479 DR. The end of Shadowrealm got me excited for a potential clash between Asmodeus and Mephistopheles (remember: "Tremble in your fortress, Asmodeus!"), but I doubt anything of that sort will happen now.
Funny enough, Asmodeus is still an Archdevil in my realms (his power is on par with that of a god, but he doesn't need a divine spark to prove it). I'm still interested in seeing him act as a god in 4E FR, though.
I'm toying with the idea of having him corrupt War Wizards and more or less send his servants out to find all the secret magical things/powers/liches/whatever that Azuth knew about and claim these things in Asmodeus' name.
Not to mention making more Warlocks. :evil: I don't know if mortals know that Asmodeus subsumed Azuth, but I'm sure a divine vision of Azuth falling under Asmodeus' hand, followed by a promise of super powered arcane might to those who swear fealty to Asmodeus' in exchange for that power...he he....misa lika dis.
I guess you do have a point Delta, I suppose its some sort of Social Standing or something.
I dont even understand why Asmodeus would even want to be a god, i mean theres plenty of powerful beings out there who arent gods, the only difference i can see between other beings of power and gods is that gods are tied to their mortal worshippers. Why would Asmodeus even want to be tied to mortals? Wasnt he able to get plenty of souls being an Arch-Devil and all? Its seems the line of thinking is that being a god is where its at, but look at poor Cyric, he found out the hard way being a god is not all its cracked up to be.
In general, being a god is all it's cracked up to be. He certainly gained power in the process of becoming a god, and is now a greater god. A moving force in the cosmos, beyond what he could be as a mere arch devil. The gap between him and the other devils is even greater now, he can create chosen, he may even have more freedom than he did as an arch devil.
Hell,(heh pun) he may be hoping to use his divine status as leverage somehow against the demons of the abyss. He may be hoping that he can pick up more domains and increase further in influence. I mean Cyric went mad because, basically, he didn't get what he really wanted, and what he got wasn't what he expected. Going mad while you become a god...yikes. He's imprisoned because he killed Mystra and caused the spellplague. Shar got away pretty much clean, which is pretty weak, but these things happen.
As long as Asmo doesn't do anything to cause that kind of backlash, he's pretty much safe. As long as his machinations stay more subtle and less obviously cosmic than those of say, Bane, he's probably good.
I dont even understand why Asmodeus would even want to be a god, i mean theres plenty of powerful beings out there who arent gods, the only difference i can see between other beings of power and gods is that gods are tied to their mortal worshippers.
Great Bejebuz, I thought I was the only guy that saw the downsides first around here.
Do you even know the powers a deity possesses (or did)?
He may be hoping that he can pick up more domains and increase further in influence.
As far as I am aware, such things no longer even exist. Should it be so, Swordboy may well be correct in his assessment.
well maybe..
Yeah i just dont see how being a god is all that. I mean being an Arch-Devil is pretty major, I would say they already have god like powers, they can create aspects or avatars of them selves to muck around on the Mortal plane, they have their own planes and can only be killed in their home planes like gods, and they can apparently grant spells to worshipers as well, Devil worship existed in the Realms before Asmodeus became a god, and those worshipers got spells, so I just dont see why these beings of already great power would even want to become "official" gods, I dont think it would grant them more power or influence, the only difference i see is that they are linked to their worshipers. Perhaps that link works both ways though and gods can draw strength from thier followers as well. That would offer up a reasonable explanation, or it could be like Delta pointed out just for bragging rights and pick up lines. Still it seems like theres an awful lot of downsides though, Asmodeus is bound, like the other gods, to the rules and regulations that AO placed on them.
Pretty sure he was anyway, in the end.
Further, I really don't think that asmo was greater god level powerful before, and now, of course, he is. The link between god and follower almost certainly works both ways.
Also, he is now in a possition where he can make alliances, if it suits him, with gods.
it may be that he didn't gain much in terms of a battle with another being. It may be that what he gained was less tangible than that. some avenue of power to which he didn't have access before.
Or, it could simply be that godhood felt like something more than what he had, and so he grabbed it when he got the opportunity.
like the norse gods, celtic gods, greek gods and certainly others, the gods of faerun are emotional, and far from perfect.
I have this sneaking suspicion that we haven't seen the last of Mystryl. Or even Mystra.
Spellplague - and Shar's evil - made for fantastic interlude. Mystra's bans on the Netherese 12th level magic - that has always seemed to me a stop gap.
The Mythals and Netherese Floating cities were adventures into magic that were, perhaps, stifled by Mystra's Bans.
But - I seem to recall that time was Mystra's portfolio. Probably Mystyls.
I think we have a temporal causality loop (to borrow the term from Startrek Voyager - quoting Janeway "Temporal Causality Loops give me a headache"
)I have been suspecting that Mystryl anticipated the Spellplague and will make a grand re-entry into Fearunian mythology .....just....when.....Shar......least.....expects it, and I suspect magic may be delimited again. So, there is perhaps a small footnote, overlooked in Mystryl-ian Lore, maybe a strange note in an obscure magic item - designed by Mystryl - to receive Sendings across time, sent to Mystryl, by Mystra, just as Shar was doing her nasties.
And Mystryl, forewarned, has allowed a lapse in magic, and period of Spellplague - but, from the past, transmits a magical spell - possibly post 12th level - into the future, before she cops it when Karsus goes nuts, which actually was designed to.....
transport.....her.....into......the.......future at the end of the spellplague. Just a plot line really.
ramblings
Perhaps we will have the Imaskarian legacy meet the resurgence of Mythals, or some weired evolution of Elven magic.......
cheers
But any way Im sure that Midnight had some sort of contingency in place just in case the Spellplague or something like it happened, but as I understand it, Shar some how blocked that (what ever it was) from happening. But im not counting out a new Mystra just yet, theres still a good amount of her divine energies left in her chosen, maybe thats why Elminster must die!!!
Yes, Temporal Causality Loops can be a real pain! Back in 2e we had a couple of Chronomancers in the party and things got wiggy pretty quickly, One guy even had a bar that was actualy a TARDIS, so that campaighn was full of time travel, time loops, paradox, and alternate realities. Gives me a headache too just thinking about Temporal Causality Loops!
ha ha ha
I hear ya! *hands you an aspirin* In 29th century starfleet we had the "Temporal Prime Directive" and the time-cops protecting the timeline.......which in a time-campaign with (headache chronomancers) could be used to appear in a puff of smoke, to stop too many PC campaign naughties...but - it also sounded like a really really fun game you guyz had going....
But any way Im sure that Midnight had some sort of contingency in place just in case the Spellplague or something like it happened, but as I understand it, Shar some how blocked that (what ever it was) from happening. But im not counting out a new Mystra just yet, theres still a good amount of her divine energies left in her chosen, maybe thats why Elminster must die!!!
he he he Elminster's been around for a good while!
you could well be right - would love to hear from anyone who knows about the details of the Shar-block - .....TARDIS he he let's modify it to Mystryl's Time and Relative Dimensions In Space MyTARDIS
www.bleedingcool.com/2010/01/19/fox-to-a...
just, you know, speaking of headaches. Fox re-making something from british tv...:P
I keep waiting for Halaster's madness to take root in Asmodeus, driving him to distraction long enough for the divine spark of Azuth to rip its way out of him.
Then Azuth appropriates half-mad Elminster, is driven doubly insane by Elminster's mind and Halaster's madness, so he explodes in a divine blast of awesome high above Shadowdale and his energy is absorbed by all the plaguewrought lands which starts the proto-Weave to healing itself.
Fast forward another one hundred years and the Weave is back. Soon after, a Mystryl-like goddess emerges to answer mage's prayers and govern magic once more.
...and a collective "Sark!" is heard all over the Realms as mages of all sorts are forced to relearn magic yet again.
So yeah...give my Mystryl.
That's a funny (yet very clever) way to bring her back. Some fans here can make such better writing than.... y'know.... those guys
