Sorry for my bad english...
Could you tell me wich (old) Mystra's chosens are still alive ?
Thanks,
Alustriel: Dead, sometime before 1,479 DR. (FRCG)
Azuth: Dead, in 1,385 DR. (FRCG)*
Dove Falconhand: Unknown.
Elminster Aumar: Alive, living in Shadowdale. (FRCG)
Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep: Died, in 308 DR, and continues to exist as an Undead-like creature.
Khelben "The Blackstaff" Arunsun: Dead, in 1,374 DR. (Blackstaff)
Laeral: Dead, sometime before 1,479 DR. (Blackstaff Tower)
Nadrathen, the “Rebel Chosen": Dead, in 764 DR. (The Temptation of Elminster)
Noumea Drathchuld: Unknown.
Qilué: Dead, in 1,378 DR. (Ascendancy of the Last)
Sammaster: Phylactery destroyed in 1,373 DR.** (The Ruin)
The Simbul: Alive, living in the Dalelands, presumably with Elminster in Shadowdale. (FRCG)
The Srinshee: Alive, at least up to 1,377 DR.
Storm Silverhand: Unknown.
Syluné: Dead, in 1,375 DR. (Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land)
Symrustar Auglamyr: Dead, in 713 DR. (Elminster in Myth Drannor/Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves?)
*Became a deity, forfeiting his Chosen status.
**Lost Chosen status
Plausible?
?So she might not have chosen death, but have chosen a mortal life, with the capacity to give her legacy to others. Alustriel always struck me as the one who was closest to the mortal world, capable of cooperating, trusting in other people's capabilities, and even with the capacity to be humble, admit when she was wrong, and apologize. So for her, it would not be hard to give up her power and become human once more, since she never lost her sanity to her immortality.
That is my take, but I prefer it much more above a violent death.
Gomez,
whose character Valencia has Alustriel as a middle name - as a token of the respect many Luruans still have for the woman who brought peace to the Silver Marshes.
I'm not commenting on the Cattie-brie thing beyond saying "just no".
LK, Now when you say dead you mean someone or something killed them right? I ask because I thought all chosen are immortal as far as age goes right?
-I didn't go into specifics, about who died peacefully and who died violently. I used 'dead' as a catch-all term, meaning that they're dead, be it peacefully, violently, somewhere in between...
Alustriel simply passing away peacefully without a twist is just to easy. Plausible indeed but with WoTC not likely. Have you ever seen a major character just go peacefully into that good night? LK:
The reason why I was looking for clarification was that if El and the Simbul(and I'm assuming here) still possess their immortality then I'm assuming that none of the other chosen simply died peacefully in their sleep or old age. Because unless I miss the info stating that all Mystra's chosen lost their silver fire then they can't die peacefully of old age right? I assume the ones listed as dead either were killed by battle or some other means.
think the symbul does too....
and as for lustra, the frcg does not say how she died, just that she did, but how they worded it, made most myself included think she went in her sleep.
now on the otherhand if lustra faked it along with Laeral we will never know ndas and all.
LK:
The reason why I was looking for clarification was that if El and the Simbul(and I'm assuming here) still possess their immortality then I'm assuming that none of the other chosen simply died peacefully in their sleep or old age. Because unless I miss the info stating that all Mystra's chosen lost their silver fire then they can't die peacefully of old age right? I assume the ones listed as dead either were killed by battle or some other means.
-We already have precidence that when a deity dies, any Chosen that he/she/it has lose the special abilities bestowed upon- Shuruppak and Gilgeam. Shuruppak was Gilgeam's Chosen, and when Gilgeam died, Shuruppak lost his Chosen status, and the special abilities that went along with it, as evidenced by his stats in the Epic Level Handbook. Thus, when Mystra died, her Chosen lost their Chosen of Mystra templates as well, negating the immortality that went along with it. Though this might go a bit against the grain, in terms of the special status that the Chosen of Mystra have according to Ed Greenwood, in terms of being supposedly able to "restart" Mystra with the slivers of divinity they have within them, Shuruppak demonstrates that, in actuality, that's not really how it works.
-We already have precidence that when a deity dies, any Chosen that he/she/it has lose the special abilities bestowed upon- Shuruppak and Gilgeam. Shuruppak was Gilgeam's Chosen, and when Gilgeam died, Shuruppak lost his Chosen status, and the special abilities that went along with it, as evidenced by his stats in the Epic Level Handbook. Thus, when Mystra died, her Chosen lost their Chosen of Mystra templates as well, negating the immortality that went along with it. Though this might go a bit against the grain, in terms of the special status that the Chosen of Mystra have according to Ed Greenwood, in terms of being supposedly able to "restart" Mystra with the slivers of divinity they have within them, Shuruppak demonstrates that, in actuality, that's not really how it works.
We also have precidence for auto-death when supernaturally maintained beings lose whatever power has kept them alive after their normal lifespan. Zalathorm and Akhlaur were dead within moments when the Crimson Star and Zalathorm's backup gem were destroyed. Barring a reason for El or the Simbul to have sought out immortality in other ways, I'd have applied the same concept. More importantly though, the Chosen if memory serves still had their templates midway through the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy when Mystra was both cast down and dead. Mystra's power may have reacted unpredictably with her death but it shouldn't have been uniformly lost. Gilgeam empowered his agents for different purposes and in different ways. Shuruppak doesn't work effectively as a baseline.
Hmm, I'll rephrase that. Given past data, Shuruppak shouldn't work as a baseline but given current design philosophy Shuruppak is a perfect example regardless of any inconsistencies.
-During the Time of Troubles, though Mystra was not dead, per se, being as that she "imbued" Midnight with her powers and persona, to a degree, enabling Midnight to become Mystra at the end of everything. In the case here, we have no evidence that Midnight-Mystra did the same, "imbuing" her powers and personas elsewhere, allowing her to "escape" death like the did during the Time of Troubles. Everything (magic) was working incorrectly then, anyway.
El and the Simbul(plus other chosen who may be alive after a century) having another means of keeping them alive.
2. El, Simbul, and the rest of the living chosen are part of a greater plan of some unknown(as of yet).
I can now see how Alustrial passed away peacefully as well. Thanks Lk and the rest for assuaging my curiosty.
Alustriel's spirit combining with Cattie-brie thus prolonging Cattie-brie's life span because Alustriel couldn't bear to see Drizzt un-happy?
Plausible?
What planet did you come from? 
:P
I'm alright seriously. Was just offering a slightly serious twist involving Alustriel. Becase WoTC always has a twist. 
*sigh* This life is boreing...
.. I wonder... 
...
*gasp* YAY, let's go boogy with the dead! 
... One of my proposed reasons for the Spell Plague was that where Mystra died, the parts of her inside her Chosen attempted to still maintain the Weave.. causing trouble.
I think the basic concept of the Chosen was to store divine power in them while taking it out of Mystra, as a backup. Mystra's death shouldn't have had any direct effect on the Chosen.
Accurate enough, well sort of.
This is certain and in print (i.e. book, not Candlekeep)
Whatever the reason, it is clear that Mystra told Azuth at about the time of the Year of the Rising Flame [0DR] that some of her divine power must be given into the hands of mortals. It would slumber within them, so that Mystra could only call on it with their permission.
There are a couple possible reasons listed within the text, including as divine backup. The problem is that those possible explanations are purely possible explanations and if one wants to push vehemently enough the "All Chosen are Chosen" kick regardless of the different motivations and powers of those making them then one could easily say that those explanations were never the real one. One could also go on to say that printed text has overruled Greenwood's commentary. Though in the absence of specific circumstances handling Alustriel's death, I'm not seeing a specific overruling point. Further point, if Mystra merely wanted a champion then she could do so without infusing power that she couldn't easily reclaim because to my knowledge the above text never appeared in relation to the Magister.
There are a couple possible reasons listed within the text, including as divine backup. The problem is that those possible explanations are purely possible explanations and if one wants to push vehemently enough the "All Chosen are Chosen" kick regardless of the different motivations and powers of those making them then one could easily say that those explanations were never the real one. One could also go on to say that printed text has overruled Greenwood's commentary. Though in the absence of specific circumstances handling Alustriel's death, I'm not seeing a specific overruling point. Further point, if Mystra merely wanted a champion then she could do so without infusing power that she couldn't easily reclaim because to my knowledge the above text never appeared in relation to the Magister.
-Whenever a deity creates a Chosen (or in 2e Proxies), despite the deity, they are investing their own divine energy in the mortal, and it is that energy that is sustaining the special powers manifested by that Chosen. As the situation with Sammaster illustrates, once a mortal is bestowed with 'Chosen' status, it can be revoked. "He/she/it who giveth, taketh."
You know, in that context, Alustriel dying in her sleep almost could make sense... :D
Alustriel saw 4E and her heart broke. Yep, makes sense.
Alustriel saw 4E and her heart broke. Yep, makes sense.
Yes, because fictional characters have emotions and are really alive!
Oh, wait...
Yes, because fictional characters have emotions and are really alive!
Oh, wait...
Following me from thread to thread now?
Yes, because fictional characters have emotions and are really alive!
Oh, wait...
-As was discussed in that other thread, the odds are heavily in "their" favor.
-Whenever a deity creates a Chosen (or in 2e Proxies), despite the deity, they are investing their own divine energy in the mortal,
Granting power means actually investing power in a given person, I don't believe I've actually contested that. The methodology by which it is done however and the surrounding circumstances vary. There's a reason I brought up the magister whose active powers can easily come to equal those of a Chosen especially since a magister in good standing could request to learn exotic abilities wielded by the Chosen but does not anywhere have text saying that Mystra couldn't access it for personal amusement and does have text saying that Mystra personally has revoked their abilities completely causing death or forced Mystra's choice vs Chosen who fall under the above rule from The Seven Sisters. As for Sammaster, Mystra didn't touch the twit if memory serves. Azuth, was permitted to remove her power from Sammaster. I'll leave out the Candlekeep explanation for why since I'm pretty certain you know it and are ignoring it.
-Sammaster had his power removed by Azuth, who invoked the power of Mystra, which summoned a star, one of Mystra's old holy symbols. I have no clue what you're getting at with "the candlekeep explanation", but regardless, to the crux of the issue, a Chosen is a Chosen. That one is a Chosen of Mystra makes them no more special or less special than a Chosen of Blibdoolpools. That the Chosen of Mystra are inherently "better" than the Chosen of whomever else, because they're Mystra's Chosen, is a "Mary Suism" that has thankfully been made vestigial over the years.
Bold part is not entirely true... Mystra's Chosen wouldn't be laughed at for the funny name... ;)
I agree with the rest of your post.
EDIT:
named blibdoolpoopals...-I spelled that wrong, actually. I added an extra 'S' at the end, when there should a 'P'. It's Blibdoolpoolp, not Blibdoolpools.
I think that is even worse... I wonder who created that name... and what they might have been on at the time.
Its supposed to sound like something "said underwater".
Besides, she's such a HOTTY. :D
I wish I could have posted her in all nakit 1e splendor, but I have to conform to the site rules and Hasbro's 4e target audience. I hope that is 'PG13' enough for them. ;)
-Sammaster had his power removed by Azuth, who invoked the power of Mystra, which summoned a star, one of Mystra's old holy symbols. I have no clue what you're getting at with "the candlekeep explanation", but regardless, to the crux of the issue, a Chosen is a Chosen.
Good, glad its not just me then...
That one is a Chosen of Mystra makes them no more special or less special than a Chosen of Blibdoolpools. That the Chosen of Mystra are inherently "better" than the Chosen of whomever else, because they're Mystra's Chosen, is a "Mary Suism" that has thankfully been made vestigial over the years.
See, now there, you're just wrong. The Chosen of Mystra are inherently better because they've got Storm, Laeral, and Alassra... just on looks alone they win. The rest aren't bad either, but those three... whew! :D
I wish I could have posted her in all nakit 1e splendor, but I have to conform to the site rules and Hasbro's 4e target audience. I hope that is 'PG13' enough for them. ;)
I think that is even worse... I wonder who created that name... and what they might have been on at the time.
-Blidboolpoolp is the goddess of the Kuo-Toa. It's supposed to sound like a leaky faucet, and does when you say it slowly. It looks like a jumble of letters, but it pretty easy to pronounce: Blib-Dool-Pool-P.
See, now there, you're just wrong. The Chosen of Mystra are inherently better because they've got Storm, Laeral, and Alassra... just on looks alone they win. The rest aren't bad either, but those three... whew! :D
-Ghaunadaur has Gumwadius the Well-Traveled and Amoebus the Single-Celled. Those highlighted Chosen of Mystra cannot compare.
-Sammaster had his power removed by Azuth, who invoked the power of Mystra, which summoned a star, one of Mystra's old holy symbols. I have no clue what you're getting at with "the candlekeep explanation",
Greenwood posted an explanation why it was Azuth instead of Mystra directly. I'll track it down later but it came out to if Mystra directly and forcibly removes her power from a Chosen then that power is permanently lost to her either negated by the process used or she has to use as much of herself to take it as she'd get in return. Either way, zero sum action and if she wants her power back instead of simply gone she either asks nicely or someone has to take it and then give it to her willingly. Since it was posted on Candlekeep, I referred to it as a Candlekeep explanation.
but regardless, to the crux of the issue,
You seem to be confusing me with someone else because most of the platitudes you're feeling the need to decry aren't really attached to my point. I'm not currently trying to make a case whether Mystra's Chosen are superior. I'm arguing that judging the behaviour of Chosen template A by the behaviour of Chosen template B doesn't work. Gods grant powers to accomplish specific goals. Mystra wanted contingencies, Gilgeam wanted a Champion, The Seldarine wanted a Queen (at least in Amlauril's case, her daughter is another issue), each of the above will taylor the template to accomplish their given goals. In Mystra's case, a contingency holder for her power is a flawed design if the power flees from said being when crisis befalls her. I actually doubt that Mystra is the only one who'd make certain her power anchors itself thoroughly. I suspect Mask has at least once but since I'm not particularly interested in Mask or his agents, I'm not about to go look the subject up.
Mystra provides a decent range of spell-like abilities and then goes insane on defensive powers.
Deneir takes out some of the defensive tricks (including the general immunity to age granted by both Mystra and the Seldarine) but the Song is given time probably the most versatile power you could ever ask for. You also get some rather specific spell-like powers.
Amlauril's status hasn't been statted to my knowledge but the ability to single-handedly toss around multi-caster rituals when she gets ****** off is rather impressive and trumps in pure power just about anything a Chosen of Mystra is liable to do without some really cool toys or decent backing from the Lady.
I expect Gilgeam ran low on spell-like, high on slaughter.
Keep in mind though that those Chosen abilities are just the basic framework, and presuming that Mystra's notion of unique powers and abilities for individual Chosen aren't something only Mystra indulges in, they're abilities are indeed going to be many and varied, possibly wildly among servants of the same deity if they decide to create more specialized Chosen than Mystra is wont to.
In 4th edition, the Chosen epic path is a basic framework that is the same to all deities, but with a unique power that depends on the deity who imbues the Chosen.
Please tell me that there are a range of power options. Aspiring to be the Chosen of your deity, just so you can take up a unique power that isn't very unique seems a little... harsh. Hmm, reminds me of Channel Divinity for some reason.
Note that this is a Chosen epic destiny for PCs, and in style with 4th ed mechanically simplified and balanced - an abstraction of what it means to be a Chosen *as a PC*.
For NPCs (or variation Chosen epic destinies you make yourself), you can be much more creative.
My point was more that, while not the best mechanical representation of a Chosen, it does attest to the idea that Chosen of various deities are similar in basis, but have unique aspects that mirror the deity they champion. so extrapolated it is not odd that some Chosen may be cooler or 'better' than others.
Alustriel saw 4E and her heart broke. Yep, makes sense.
Heh.
My theory: She actually died of pleasure (it's possible, you know!).:P And she never did lose her eroti--er, exotic abilities.
Note that this is a Chosen epic destiny for PCs, and in style with 4th ed mechanically simplified and balanced - an abstraction of what it means to be a Chosen *as a PC*.
For NPCs (or variation Chosen epic destinies you make yourself), you can be much more creative.
Bearing in mind that this may well be edging near to thread derailment (start a new thread maybe?) I would like to explore this dichotomy.
I went back to the FRPG (yes, I do actually own it for all I have said about 4E FR) sorry I didn't check it before, gomeztoo, I hadn't remembered that that was where it is from. From reading the fluff and looking at the powers I really got the feeling that this has become a PC or antagonist only avenue now. I really don't get the NPC vibe from this one. What do people think? Maybe the repurposing of the concept in this way is what required the deaths of some of the other Chosen?
Heh.
My theory: She actually died of pleasure (it's possible, you know!).:P And she never did lose her eroti--er, exotic abilities.
This makes me wonder who she was with at the time, heh! ;)
Other dieties' chosen are different because the dieties don't need to be losing their power, and like in Mask's case for Erevis Cale... Mask had alternatives for empowering him that didn't depend on his own divine power.
Mystra too could actually upgrade wizards pretty decently if she so wanted - like when she stuffed all that new knowledge in Halaster's head... She might well have been able to build super wizards quickly, and use permanent spell effects to give them any amount of power she wanted... without investing her divine essence.
If you remove Candlekeep. Facts become
Mystra infused certain mortals with her divine power for causes unclear
According to Seven Sisters, Mystra needs consent to call upon the power stored in Chosen.
Azuth acting on Mystra's authority removed Sammaster's power, the extent of Mystra's direct involvement is unclear.
Silver Fire has wierd interactions with Mystra's greater power. Elminster in Hell brings up a side effect where Mystra trying to look directly into a Chosen's mind without consent tends to find lots of Silver Fire and comparatively less memory.
On the issue of making super wizards, the Magister typically makes for a good example template and doesn't carry any of her divine essence.
I don't really like how the Chosen have been pushed aside in 4E. They were important characters in FR. (Of course, I haven't even looked at the 4E stuff, so I don't know what worthwhile characters were used to replace them)
Going by Greenwood's Candlekeep replies (provided my memory works because I haven't tracked down the relevant post, I don't like Candlekeep), yes the Chosen (Mystra's, not all the others) are there to contain some of Mystra's power and that is sort of echoed in Seven Sisters but detail is limited and 80% comes in theory.
The basics are clear enough from the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy -- one of the main sources that put the Chosen concept in print in the first place.
Yes, Mystra's destruction is impossible while her Chosen live, that's the point -- Realms-2008 just blithely reversed this to get the result they wanted.
And Shar having planned it for a while could've done a good job in preparing for the after-effects of Mystra's death, so that she couldn't rise again(I'll ignore the pathetic description of what happened). Shar being one of the beings from home Mystryl derived is probably in a good position to know exactly what Mystra is/was and take some action based on that knowledge(kinda like knowing that a human has a heart which is a decent target for an attack)
At least I read somewhere that Ao told her to create Chosen for that reason... I could be wrong though.
The idea that Chosen are there to prevent a God from dying seems off - given that deities had been falling like flies before, and I am sure many had Chosen.
That Mystra's Chosen were commanded by Ao is a possibility mentioned in The Seven Sisters. The 'lock out the followers of other dieties of their power' thing is just an internet canard. We know that Mystra split up her power to preserve the larger Mystra and the Weave in the event of the individual Mystra's death -- we see it happen in Shadow of the Avatar, which is a must-read for anyone who wants to know about this subject (or the Godswar, the Dales, Sharantyr, or the Malaugrym).
These mortals cannot wield what they hold of Mystra's power, but they can withhold it, even from the goddess herself. This self-will, and the mortals' often widespread travels, keep Mystra from ruling all of realmspace and prevent any other being from doing so through her.
It also mentions that they can willingly allow her to use the power they hold onto but cannot be forced to.
January 10, 2005: Ah, Wooly dearest, you've hit on it.
Ed's reply does indeed "imply that once a being becomes a Chosen, Mystra can't reclaim from that person her own essence." You point out that "that's exactly what is described as having happened to Sammaster: thru Azuth, Mystra's essence was removed from Sammaster."
EXACTLY. Sammaster's silver fire was taken through the actions of Azuth, another deity.
Mystra can forcibly wrest her divine essence (the silver fire) directly from a mortal, but in doing so loses it forever, weakening herself (it does not 'find its way back to her' in the normal way, but is GONE). So she won't do it.
That doesn't stop Azuth, working with her, from doing it (she'd probably fight any other deity trying it on a mortal located on Toril, and win by using the Weave against them).
As you've probably guessed, we Knights discussed this very matter with Ed.
Your cozily, snuggly helpful,
THO
can be found here slightly down the page. Google is good, Candlekeep is still annoying.
Also I hope they never bring back Mystra, she has died more than any other deity...
-That "dubious" honor belongs to Siamorphe, not Mystra.
-That "dubious" honor belongs to Siamorphe, not Mystra.
But I'm afraid Mystra has seen more of the limelight than Siamorphe.
Google is good, Candlekeep is still annoying.
The Candlekeep 'Search' function in fine. So long as you know how to best use it effectively. Alternatively, you could've contacted me, and I would've helped you to quickly find the reply you were looking for.
Note:- There will be a new and improved 'Search' process for Candlekeep, featuring more functionality, with the upgrade to Candlekeep 2.
I think Elminster has worn out his welcome, I think the only reason he is around is because of Ed Greenwood, I think if he wasn't in the picture Elminster would have been gone.
*Sigh*
No matter how many times you say this Xun, it's simply not true. I've got saved threads from these boards from around three years ago were you again, claim much the same. Enough. It's not true. Please stop perpetuating this unsupported nonsense.
So I'll say it again. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Elminster is Ed's *pet* character in the Realms. He is not. Both Ed and the Lady Hooded One at Candlekeep have, repeatedly, made this quite clear.
Consider this, directly from Ed:-
"No, of course not. WotC authors are often asked to provide “sell copy” for book jackets, though it NEVER reaches print un-tinkered-with, but in the old TSR days, writers were rarely invited to do so. I had never seen that blurb until a copy of the book was brought to me for signing at a convention, and I certainly never wrote a word of it. No, I have never said Elminster is my “alter ego.” TSR has, many times; a practice that began in GenCon pre-registration blurb booklets, describing the seminars I did in costume, acting the part of Elminster - - ALSO a practice TSR asked me to begin and carry on. When they, many years later, asked me to leave the costume at home, I happily did so. Those robes are hot. :}
To reiterate: I have never, ever said that Elminster is my alter ego or wish fulfillment character, or thought that way for one minute. I will never use any Realms characters in that manner, because doing so would ruin the whole fun of creating the world and its characters, and watching what happens and how they evolve. Just as all of the gamers who have played various PC adventurers in my Realms sessions over the years are playing roles, not themselves.
So saith Ed. Who will return with regular Realmslore about ten hours from now, if he stays on schedule.
love,
THO"
But I'm afraid Mystra has seen more of the limelight than Siamorphe.
-Which has nothing to do with the fact that Mystra does not have the "honor" of being the deity who has seen the most incarnations in the setting.
Elminster is apparently a popular character that a lot of people like reading about, otherwise WotC wouldn't keep asking Ed Greenwood to write about him.
Exactly, Wotc has complete control over every aspect of the Forgotton Realms from El and Drizzt to Cale and Danilo. If the character or setting or deity etc... is popular enough to continue to make money they get eternal life until the cash flow runs out(even if the are taken over by different authors). And if enough people petitioned WotC to bring a deity of magic back and restore the magic status quo it will happen.
I too once believed that Ed's Elminster was his favorite character and that was why there was more about him than any other but as stated above that isn't the case. El's simply the most popular one because of the readers
And as much as I always disliked the idea of Mystra, and the kind of person who ended up taking the title (Midnight)... I wouldn't want the character dead. Just the fact that a lot of people dislike Mystra or the Chosen is by itself good reason for them to exist, because it means that they evoke emotion in people, and make the world more real.
Those of us who hate Mystra and her Chosen can remove them in a suitably painful way in our own games :P
I actually disliked the fact that they killed Khelben, and I would be annoyed if Elminster died. All of these characters are beings of interest in the game. Characters that add to the game. Their being dead is valueless.
-It's not a game*. It's a world, a "living, breathing" world. Things happen, and the world doesn't exist in static. People have specific motives, goals, and things of that nature. Apparently, as evidenced by the plot of Blackstaff, the events that unfolded were the culmination of thousands of years of planning and reacting. Khelben happened to be one of the many planners, and his death happened to be a necessary thing.
-People just associate the name, because he's Khelben. Ualair the Silent (Sp?) also sacrificed his soul for the rebirth of the City of Hope, but very few bemoan his loss, because he didn't have as big of a name, among fans.
Personally, I don't see any particularly high level wizards dying under normal circumstances - good or evil.
Like I said about that novel series with the half-demon elves. Killing the main baddie served no purpose, didn't make the story better at all - since it removed all the potential that character had - and took something from people who play the game.
Now I completely favor changes in the game world, shifting alliances, different plans coming to fruition, as a source of ideas, but people do not need to be dying or losing their power bases in a way that makes them ineffective from thereon forward.
But its not a living breathing world. It's a game world whose existence in primarily for the sake of the players of the game. Thus choices made have to be in terms of what is interesting and creates more opportunity vs. what is not particularly interesting.
-It's a "living, breathing world". It's a world whose existence primarily came about to tell stories in, of people doing things. People who do things have their own agendas, that don't necessarily coincide with the agendas of the characters of players, who create other residents of that "living, breathing world".
-It's a "living, breathing world". It's a world whose existence primarily came about to tell stories in, of people doing things. People who do things have their own agendas, that don't necessarily coincide with the agendas of the characters of players, who create other residents of that "living, breathing world".
That is what it was, LK. Whatever FR may have been when Ed either created it or (seemed to) have a controlling interest in it is not what it is now. Now FR is, demonstrably, one of many Game World settings that Wizards will decide the direction of to coincide with the way they feel will best suit the games that they want to sell. Narrative coherence, in and of itself, probably is considered to have little intrinsic value in a Game World. It may add a bonus in the form of greater immersion, empathy or verisimilitude.
I have played, and indeed still do play 4E. I do not, however, play 4E FR. Threat resolution will always take place in novels, because otherwise the story will be pretty much half-untold. Now, if the novel isn't an RSE those threats and resolutions need not affect the wider canon world. I would point out to Stigger and Zsych (as has been pointed out to me often enough) that your FR and the canon FR need not have any resemblance whatsoever to one another.
An author kills off a character you want to use... So what? To a degree that removal of old characters and the evolution of new ideas is actually something you should embrace and love. Why? Because nothing is stopping you from using any idea from any point in the timeline of FR or the timeline of any other setting/game/system. So the continuous clearing of the older strctures and addition of new material should be a boon, not a problem since they will almost always add something to fill the hole. It is in the nature of people.
That was longer than I had meant it to be...
...Ualair the Silent (Sp?) also sacrificed his soul for the rebirth of the City of Hope,...
**Wanders by quietly, and snatches Ualair's orange Selu'kiira when everyone is distracted.**
It's not like he needs it anymore.
**teleports away** :D:D:D
That is what it was, LK. Whatever FR may have been when Ed either created it or (seemed to) have a controlling interest in it is not what it is now. Now FR is, demonstrably, one of many Game World settings that Wizards will decide the direction of to coincide with the way they feel will best suit the games that they want to sell. Narrative coherence, in and of itself, probably is considered to have little intrinsic value in a Game World. It may add a bonus in the form of greater immersion, empathy or verisimilitude.
I'd say that 4eFR was coherent myself. Not with what came before, but from a certain perspective, it does make sense. My biggest problem with it is its societal assumptions and the move toward a darker, less whimsical setting. That's precisely the reason I don't care for Golarion, and why I dislike the 4e Realms.
I have played, and indeed still do play 4E. I do not, however, play 4E FR. Threat resolution will always take place in novels, because otherwise the story will be pretty much half-untold. Now, if the novel isn't an RSE those threats and resolutions need not affect the wider canon world. I would point out to Stigger and Zsych (as has been pointed out to me often enough) that your FR and the canon FR need not have any resemblance whatsoever to one another.
I don't play 4e. And furthermore, I denounce (yes, denounce, because its a cool word) you as a traitor to the Realms. And puppies. And probably baby seals as well. :P
And I'm well aware the my FR and canon don't need to coincide. And in fact, they utterly do not coincide at all.
An author kills off a character you want to use... So what? To a degree that removal of old characters and the evolution of new ideas is actually something you should embrace and love. Why? Because nothing is stopping you from using any idea from any point in the timeline of FR or the timeline of any other setting/game/system. So the continuous clearing of the older strctures and addition of new material should be a boon, not a problem since they will almost always add something to fill the hole. It is in the nature of people.
As I don't read most books, its not an issue for me most of the time. Most of the time I don't care that they killed off a character, I just generally dislike how its done more often than not, because I usually find the method and means contrived and nonsensical.
Such was the case with Khelben's death. He just didn't strike me as the type to abandon his lover and unborn children. I'd have been much happier if they had left the children out of it to be honest... had it happened without them looming on the horizon, I'd have been very pleased with his ending.
That was longer than I had meant it to be...
I often feel that way hanging around the 4e general discussion board... what's supposed to be an offhand comment usually turns into a debate over there...
As for it being a living world, its not like the stories are following some natural laws here. They are following the whims of various writers, not some natural course of events. Often unimaginative writers.
Let's take a lich. If he's an intelligent guy, has survived a long time, and knows a lot of magic, his phylactery should not be anywhere on hand that anything but far more impressive mages or clerics backed by gods and their knowledge, would have any real chance of finding and destroying it. A lot of these highly intelligent mages, backed by the minds of much less impressive authors, end up doing nothing intelligent, and then die from stupidity against stupid people.
That is what it was, LK.
-Was, then. Was.
As for it being a living world, its not like the stories are following some natural laws here. They are following the whims of various writers, not some natural course of events. Often unimaginative writers.
-That's a possible fault with the writers/designers, not the actual place. You can't blame a Siberian Husky for being born with a completely pitch black coat. Ultimatley, yes, that dog is the one who is black, while the environment and most other dogs are not completely black, but said dog didn't necessarily want to have a black coat- that is simply how things worked out for it. For, to make a D&D analogy, you can be a stupid person, and play a Wizard with an Intelligence of 24. Your Wizard character, though much smarter than the person actually playing it, is obviously limited to the player, in terms of smarts.
Let's take a lich. If he's an intelligent guy, has survived a long time, and knows a lot of magic, his phylactery should not be anywhere on hand that anything but far more impressive mages or clerics backed by gods and their knowledge, would have any real chance of finding and destroying it. A lot of these highly intelligent mages, backed by the minds of much less impressive authors, end up doing nothing intelligent, and then die from stupidity against stupid people.
-Tying this back to Blackstaff, you do realize that, ultimately, Khelben had been "preordained", of sorts, for the task that culminated at the end of the novel, and that he went through with things willingly, to get the just rewards that waited for him after living his life the way he had (entrance to Arvandor), yes? That, obviously, has a large impact on the whys-and-hows that are relevant to understanding things concerning his sacrifice.
-Tying this back to Blackstaff, you do realize that, ultimately, Khelben had been "preordained", of sorts, for the task that culminated at the end of the novel, and that he went through with things willingly, to get the just rewards that waited for him after living his life the way he had (entrance to Arvandor), yes? That, obviously, has a large impact on the whys-and-hows that are relevant to understanding things concerning his sacrifice.
No offense to Mr. Schend here, as most of his other stuff was great, but I hated that particular predestination angle in the story. It was a flimsy justification for a flimsy ending to an otherwise great book.
For, to make a D&D analogy, you can be a stupid person, and play a Wizard with an Intelligence of 24. Your Wizard character, though much smarter than the person actually playing it, is obviously limited to the player, in terms of smarts.
D&D intelligence should be just knowledge.
I often feel that way hanging around the 4e general discussion board... what's supposed to be an offhand comment usually turns into a debate over there...
Is true I've seen you antagonizing people. You do that here too....
Maybe LK too, but I think of that as performing a public service. :D
No offense to Mr. Schend here, as most of his other stuff was great, but I hated that particular predestination angle in the story. It was a flimsy justification for a flimsy ending to an otherwise great book.
-I had no problems with it. Ultimatley, it's a justification for what Zsych was not liking, citing no (or little) justification.
D&D intelligence should be just knowledge.
-Regardless what you call it, the point was that nine times out of ten, when you make a character, that character (by the raw, in theory) is probably smarter than you, the player. But, since you, the player, are controlling the character, there's no way for you, the player, to access and/or reflect that knowledge that the character would have, that you, the player, wouldn't.
-I had no problems with it. Ultimatley, it's a justification for what Zsych was not liking, citing no (or little) justification.
-Regardless what you call it, the point was that nine times out of ten, when you make a character, that character (by the raw, in theory) is probably smarter than you, the player. But, since you, the player, are controlling the character, there's no way for you, the player, to access and/or reflect that knowledge that the character would have, that you, the player, wouldn't.
.......I have an orc with with int as his dump stat
-Regardless what you call it, the point was that nine times out of ten, when you make a character, that character (by the raw, in theory) is probably smarter than you, the player. But, since you, the player, are controlling the character, there's no way for you, the player, to access and/or reflect that knowledge that the character would have, that you, the player, wouldn't.
yea, that's one of the reasons I don't use D&D rules anymore, no rules can simulate this ideally but in our group you can't just all of a sudden know a particular martial discipline, or gain a skill point in in arcana, everything has to be learned through roleplaying, it makes players to really appreciate the character they play
it would be difficult to put them on paper tough, the rules grow depending on what the pcs do, and it has to be an experienced and non-oppressive DM
basically you have a pool of every power, skill, spell or whatever that exists in fantasy that can grow into feat/power trees
Dang... lost my spellbook... all my spells are gone!!! :'(
-Keeping with the theme of the thread, that sort of thing would be perfect for Elminster, who has a lot of class features and stuff, but should be extremely rusty with so many.
There's no way to know that :surrender 
Really?
-It must be personal experience, on Stigger's part, I don't know...
Yes, and you have a wonderful little suprise waiting for you in a few months as a result too... :P ;)
I swear Stigg one of these days...
:D
I want all known major figures restored somehow, that shouldn't have been dead due to just time.
... Like the Chosen. They would be a lot more interesting now, now that they wouldn't have a goddess backing them.
Seems we need a revival of FR, the way Myth Drannor and other stuff have been revived. And by FR, I mean the FR we know - including the Chosen. (Gods I don't care about)
I want all known major figures restored somehow, that shouldn't have been dead due to just time.
... Like the Chosen. They would be a lot more interesting now, now that they wouldn't have a goddess backing them.
I agree. I want Alustriel back! She was the only reason to go to the north at all since murdering orcs to take their stuff became a bad thing!
The Realms had all those interesting characters, that I actually used in my campaigns, and now they're dead or hiding and there's no one to fill the void they left behind. Seems to be a constant in the 4th ed FR.
... Like the Chosen. They would be a lot more interesting now, now that they wouldn't have a goddess backing them.
-If we were lucky, we'd get a bunch of Sharuppak's running around.
$2.99 rubberbands with the D&D logo on them no less... no common rubberbands will do, since they don't have the proper weight and aerodynamic properties that the official rubberbands will. Same with the figures though, those need to be specially weighted and balanced to allow the rubberbands to function correctly, so no 3rd party stuff is advisable...
Don't foget that more expensive, heavier rubberbands will be available in 'upgrade packs', for mass battles.
Ping-pong balls to represent spell effects will be availble in future expansions...
Or is it one of those things where you get a random piece of Karsus in every rubber-band pack, and you need to buy around a hundred packs to assemble the guy?
Oh, the ebil of marketing....
I thought they were offering a Free karsus in every box?
Or is it one of those things where you get a random piece of Kasus in every rubber-band pack, and you need to buy around a hundred packs to assemble the guy?
Oh, the ebil of marketing....
Is a Scratch and Win Karsus....
I thought they were offering a Free karsus in every box?
Or is it one of those things where you get a random piece of Kasus in every rubber-band pack, and you need to buy around a hundred packs to assemble the guy?
Oh, the ebil of marketing....
Sadly, Karsus is a "limited edition rare"... I've only gotten Halaster soul chunks in the last twelve booster packs.
Halaster's pretty cool, but you have to watch your sanity points when you play him. Elminster's a lot more useful... unless someone plays a 'Wench' card...