There are a number of lore issues that came up with Mystra's death in 4e:
(1) Mystra died twice before but had never resulted in something that resembled Spellplague
(2) Mystra did not resurrect again despite all the divine power invested on chosens
(3) Neither Cyric nor Shar took the portfolio of magic
Suppose Mystra is alive but simply trapped in a prison, then these issues can be explained away quite easily since Mystra is not dead and the bulk of her essence is trapped somewhere. This prevents her followers from resurrecting her or others from taking the portfolio of magic. Since Mystra did not foresee this like in the Times of Trouble and was unable to reincarnate or be succeeded in a short time, nothing stopped the Weave from unravelling to the point of causing the Spellplague.
Now, if we take Thomas Reid's series into account, this idea may make even more sense. After all, Cyric chose to attack Mystra with none other than a staff owned by Azuth. If it had any properties similar to the Scepter of Savras (also owned by Azuth), then it may seem more likely that the deity was imprisoned inside the staff (see Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, downloadable from this site). This may also serve as a beautiful example of the subterfuge that occurs between Cyric and Shar. For example, Shar might've intended to kill Mystra and take Cyric out of the game whereas Cyric might've wanted to weaken Shar and take Mystra out of the game so that he could safely surpass them in power.
If WotC took this route, they could've created a new arc and a possibility to reintroduce her in the future.
Oh well, guess I should stop fantasizing...
I'll try to stay on topic. I read the book by Thomas Reid. The staff can be the Scepter of Savras (I believe it was, but without Savras in it, of course). Then Mystra can be imprisoned in it.
Should we call it the Scepter of Mystra then?
I say imprisoned.
anyway I'm with Delta
imprisoned
I thought we all agreed that the staff was one of the imaskarcana ..... the first one I think......
anyway I'm with Delta
imprisoned
Well, I thought we all agreed that the deicide scene in TFS was symbolic... especially after Thomas M. Reid said so himself.
I say she's dead, though I do believe that if the designers decide to bring her back, her death will be "revealed" to have been an imprisonment all along (so as to save face and avoid having to create a more reasonable approach).
I thought we all agreed that the staff was one of the imaskarcana ..... the first one I think......
anyway I'm with Delta
imprisoned
Well, I thought we all agreed that the deicide scene in TFS was symbolic... especially after Thomas M. Reid said so himself.
I say she's dead, though I do believe that if the designers decide to bring her back, her death will be "revealed" to have been an imprisonment all along (so as to save face and avoid having to create a more reasonable approach).
I also find it unlikely for her not to be dead, since I have very little faith on WotC's capability of such subtlety (as in the whole imprisonment setup).
However, part of my motivation of posting this is to 'suggest' that this can be a reasonable idea should WotC wants to consider retconing Mystra back into existence (which many of us do want). After all, Richard Baker did take someone's idea of getting Torm to replace Tyr.
I thought we all agreed that the staff was one of the imaskarcana ..... the first one I think......
anyway I'm with Delta
imprisoned
Well, I thought we all agreed that the deicide scene in TFS was symbolic... especially after Thomas M. Reid said so himself.
I say she's dead, though I do believe that if the designers decide to bring her back, her death will be "revealed" to have been an imprisonment all along (so as to save face and avoid having to create a more reasonable approach).
well if her mind is trapped outside of her body she is dead for all tales concerned.
and yes we did all agree that it was symbolic
or trapped in a cave, when the rest of the world is underwater for a few years...... aint life a stinker
P.S: She's even slutier than Sune ^^.
P.S: Not able to cast epic spells or fireball 6 times a day still hurts
Well the weave is DEAD guys!!! And I prefer to stay dead. Now Sorcerers and wizards are not "clerics of mystra" but actual practitioners of the ART controling the so called "raw magic" without the help of a goddess!!! That doesn't mean that I don't want Mystril/Mystra/Midnight/(some new name when she returns) back!!! It's one of my fav gods.
P.S: She's even slutier than Sune ^^.
P.S: Not able to cast epic spells or fireball 6 times a day still hurts
Prasie the art. +5
I agree
Not able to cast epic spells or fireball 6 times a day still hurts
You have a point there, still being able to do Magic Missle as many times as you want all day long is pretty sweet.
Not able to cast epic spells or fireball 6 times a day still hurts
You have a point there, still being able to do Magic Missle as many times as you want all day long is pretty sweet.
+3
praise the art
obtw: Praise Helm
Well the weave is DEAD guys!!! And I prefer to stay dead. Now Sorcerers and wizards are not "clerics of mystra" but actual practitioners of the ART controling the so called "raw magic" without the help of a goddess!!! That doesn't mean that I don't want Mystril/Mystra/Midnight/(some new name when she returns) back!!! It's one of my fav gods.
P.S: She's even slutier than Sune ^^.
P.S: Not able to cast epic spells or fireball 6 times a day still hurts
Wizards and sorcerers are not necessarily clerics of Mystra just as farmers not necessarily being clerics of Chauntea.
I'd agree that the concept of the Weave is bad though. Considering how each of the Elemental Lords have dominion over a primal force, it wouldn't exactly be a bad idea to give Mystra control over magical energies and magical spells (as Ed had originally intended).
The only catch would be to identify magic and spells as a subset of all supernatural phenomena (i.e. psionic, divine, other forms of energy, etc). This will eliminate the prospect of a deity of magic being the biggest badass of all the divinities (barring Ao).
By the way, why can't you cast fireball 6 times a day in 4E? What's changed w.r.t. 3E?
you cant cast fireball 6 times day anymore cause the spells of old are mostly 1/day utility spells these days, the encounter spells are a bit different.
you can cast them x amount of times a day as you increase lvls though.....
but by that time, the choice to change them out I thin increases.
Pizza's ready..
She could be captured, the oh she's dead could be a shadowed Lie told by Cyric and covered up by darkness via Shar.
these are the Realms, that over yonder is Oerth(Greyhawk), over yonder still lies Dragonlance, Darkusn, and eberron. Beyond those are still more worlds to explore.
there is death, and then there is death; I dont think we have heard the last of the deity of magic.
praise the art, and praise Helm.....
you cant cast fireball 6 times day anymore cause the spells of old are mostly 1/day utility spells these days, the encounter spells are a bit different.
you can cast them x amount of times a day as you increase lvls though.....
but by that time, the choice to change them out I thin increases.
Pizza's ready..
That's kinda sad...
Mystra is definitely firmly dead, the only way she would be imprisoned instead is if the designers wanted a deus ex machina to ressurect her in future.
As if the designers did not pull stuff like that on:
- Abeir and Toril
- Helm's duel with Tyr
- Mystra's head wracking
- Eladrin and Elves
- Myeritar's dark elves
- The drow's demonic taint
- Myth Drannor
- Imaskar
- Netheril
- Szass Tam's Multiverse-destroying spell
- Most of the stuff announced over the past 2 years by WotC
well the oh Cyric spanked her to death with a stick, was just a Symbolic vision to a demon.
The vision didn't say she die anyway... It merely said she fell after being struck.
these are the Realms, that over yonder is Oerth(Greyhawk), over yonder still lies Dragonlance, Darkusn, and eberron. Beyond those are still more worlds to explore.
there is death, and then there is death; I dont think we have heard the last of the deity of magic.
Other than Eberron and FR, the other settings are pretty much dead. Would've been nice if they at least kept Planescape alive.
She could be captured, the oh she's dead could be a shadowed Lie told by Cyric and covered up by darkness via Shar.
Cyric and Shar are too terminally stupid to be that clever from everything we know about them.
However, part of my motivation of posting this is to 'suggest' that this can be a reasonable idea should WotC wants to consider retconing Mystra back into existence (which many of us do want). After all, Richard Baker did take someone's idea of getting Torm to replace Tyr.
Why would anyone suggest that?
Why am I the only one that sees how terrible torm is?
lkajsdflkj
seriously, Mask should kill Torm in order to restore himself to godhood. Or trick someone else into doing it.
Or Torm could tell his church to take control of some elfy places, Correlon and Shaundakul could be all, "I think not." big war ensues, Torm gets taken out, Tyr gets brought back to life, Mask finds a way to ride his divine wake to ressurection, suggestion that it was all part of Mask's plan all along.
Torm just needs to die.
and isn't Helm gone too?
wtf?
Other than Eberron and FR, the other settings are pretty much dead. Would've been nice if they at least kept Planescape alive.
dragonlance is still quite popular. in fact, part of the reason it isn't the 2010 setting may be that dragonlance isn't going anywhere in terms of popularity, so they could afford to bring back an old setting that represents something more different than FR.
the other settings aren't dead, and those that are, won't be for long.
Somewhere down the road this balance didn't come throught to the many people that hated the gods of magics prominence and influence.
If I could choose to bring back a god of magic into the 15th century Realms it would be a magister-type Exarch of Azuth. It would only try to safeguard collections of naturally magical landscapes and features and some Spellplague infused areas, because it would have a hard time maintaining an avatar outside of weave-touched zones.
For me the Weave was a defining part of the Realms, with its role as a specific explenation for how magic relates to the physics of the natural world. I think Mystra's presence and her stance on the side of good was another very iconic part of the feel of the whole setting. Mystra's power was great but Midnight was a tormented soul because of that and her many enemies. Other dieties of Magic such as Azuth, Velsheroon and Savras made a far more balanced impression.
Somewhere down the road this balance didn't come throught to the many people that hated the gods of magics prominence and influence.
If I could choose to bring back a god of magic into the 15th century Realms it would be a magister-type Exarch of Azuth. It would only try to safeguard collections of naturally magical landscapes and features and some Spellplague infused areas, because it would have a hard time maintaining an avatar outside of weave-touched zones.
Nah... The Boccob-kind of deities are boring (plus we already have Oghma). Bringing back Mystryl would be nice. She seemed to have the most character out of all 3.
Doubtfull she might have enough clout to start revealing herself to her faithfull from the beginning of her escape from the Facet of Donjons on top of the Staff of Azuth. It would be easy for Shar to sweep in and off her avatar or take over her rebuilt worship powerbase with targetted assassinations, murders and other methods that induce loss and bitterness.
Can't she just stay dead for once?
no
Can't she just stay dead for once?
no
Just this one time? Please?;)
18DELTA(CHOSEN OF THE ONE WHO SLEW HER!)
you wont enjoy it.
besides they should of left Bane dead, and didnt
and Mystra/Mystryl died twice already...
so let's just let her be another island in the Astral and move on.
remember this is Azuth's stick we are talking about.....
and no, we need a sitting Deity of magic......
remember this is Azuth's stick we are talking about.....
And what a stick he has.
Sorry... your choice of words...
and no, we need a sitting Deity of magic......
I'd let Corellon take a crack at it. Corellon vs Shar could be cool, if Lolth would stay out of it.
also, any Joel Rosenberg fans around here? This thread reminds me of various thread wars between the Keep Karl Alive Foundation and the Keep Karl Dead Foundation.
Writers really need to start "showing" readers the corpses of people they intend to stay dead.
Seriously.
as usual, :D
remember this is Azuth's stick we are talking about.....
And what a stick he has.
Sorry... your choice of words...and no, we need a sitting Deity of magic......
I'd let Corellon take a crack at it. Corellon vs Shar could be cool, if Lolth would stay out of it.
And then WotC reveals Lolth = Shar.
Saying 'hello' to Paizo is like saying 'hello' to cancer.
So if Lolth is Shar, does that make Corellon Selune?
and nobody stated for sure she was dead......only that she fell.
there is death and then there is death.
and if there is no body
Can't she just stay dead for once?
no
She'll be staying firmly dead I would think for more than a few additional years.
but he must die in the next book.
and nobody stated for sure she was dead......only that she fell.
there is death and then there is death.
and if there is no body
Usually with titles like "_____ MUST DIE!" what happens is that everyone around them ends up dead or permanently maimed. The person marked for death ends up living, but fate or the gods drive them into misery or insanity. I can't imagine that they'd kill off Elminster, so they must be planning that.
You gotta love it when the dying starts...
tell me about it
watch the video
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OObHcJqKZM
Helm is nay all but dead. I have high-hopes and so does E.S.D.B
Even on the forums, people want her back, speculate that she's not really dead, and discuss a lot of other Mystra-related things (artifacts, status of the old Chosen, wanting to know the exacct method of Mystra's death, how priests can still worship her for spells... it goes on and on...).
Seems a little like the plan to downplay and get rid of Mystra and her influence has not only failed entirely but has completely backfired and gone in the other direction.
the return of Mytsryl is at hand.....
When she comes again she will be known by the name Mystara.
Or perhaps a male deity called Mystran? Might be interesting to have the god of magic as a Boccob-like figure, maybe literally the son of the dead goddess.
Maybe the Simbul is pregnant with Elminster/Mystra's son, and instead of cravings for pickles and ice cream she needs regular snacks of magic items.
When she comes again she will be known by the name Mystara.
copyrighted world name, that might piss the fans of mystara off a bit... or ammuse the mone, if not a bit of both
Maybe Cyric can dress in drag and impersonate her...
LMAO
He might start to believe that he is mystra thus returning her to life.....
Shar would prefer that all of you bow down in worship to her! Praise Shar. I could see Cyric doing something really stupid like that.
Doing something stupid like what? Worshipping Shar or the impersonating Mystra thing?
Really i think Cyric gets a bad rap, as far as evil gods go hes alright.
Worshiping Shar would be pretty stupid, yep...
Meh, just have Corellon take over as god of magic. He was always associated with it anyway, and now that he's more widely worshiped by non-elves, eh, why not.
Shar would prefer that all of you bow down in worship to her! Praise Shar. I could see Cyric doing something really stupid like that.
Doing something stupid like what? Worshipping Shar or the impersonating Mystra thing?
Really i think Cyric gets a bad rap, as far as evil gods go hes alright.
He is nothing Like Bane though.....
It's interesting that for a dead deity, Mystra has (and continues to have) the biggest effect on the Realms of any deity. Spellplague, spell scars, plague lands, etc. For a deity that the designers wanted to downplay, she's more present than ever before, dead or not.
Even on the forums, people want her back, speculate that she's not really dead, and discuss a lot of other Mystra-related things (artifacts, status of the old Chosen, wanting to know the exacct method of Mystra's death, how priests can still worship her for spells... it goes on and on...).
Seems a little like the plan to downplay and get rid of Mystra and her influence has not only failed entirely but has completely backfired and gone in the other direction.
Unless that was thier plan all along! :P
Kill the wench, free magic from her grasp, create a period of chaos from which to rebuild, and have this epic dead goddess cloud hanging over people's heads. I don't think there is any other event they could have had happen that would have so elegantly evoked the sort of feel that most of us(who still enjoy the setting) have when playing in the realms. Mystra is dead, and all signs point to for good. That, more than even the spellplague, makes the realms feel shaken up, stirred, and then shaken again.
whether that's good or bad is a matter of much debate(I side on good here), but it's definatley potent.
She's gone and I agree with Dr. Wolf for the most part. As well, bringing her back now would just feel really forced.
like showing her the door wasnt forced......
you see I'd rather have Mystryl return over any of the others, and Midnight was exatcly on top of every one's favorite godess, Helm knows why they just couldnt of Destroyed the weave, and then Had her banished.
all aside, I'd rather they have a seitting deity of magic than one not present
ummm before I asnwer that, whcih Mystra are we talking aout??
you see I'd rather have Mystryl return over any of the others, and Midnight was exatcly on top of every one's favorite godess, Helm knows why they just couldnt of Destroyed the weave, and then Had her banished.
all aside, I'd rather they have a seitting deity of magic than one not present
I never liked Midnight. The only time I was really interesting in Mystra was in the Eliminster: Making of A Mage book.
I've never found any of the realms female deities all that interesting, but none of the Mystras have ever been on the top of my list.
ummm before I asnwer that, whcih Mystra are we talking aout??
you see I'd rather have Mystryl return over any of the others, and Midnight was exatcly on top of every one's favorite godess, Helm knows why they just couldnt of Destroyed the weave, and then Had her banished.
all aside, I'd rather they have a seitting deity of magic than one not present
I never liked Midnight. The only time I was really interesting in Mystra was in the Eliminster: Making of A Mage book.
I've never found any of the realms female deities all that interesting, but none of the Mystras have ever been on the top of my list.
midnight always seemed not to really know what to do....
stramgely enough, I have to agree with you with the making of the mage Mystra, I liked her too....
any way my favorite female diety list:
Meilikki
Sehanine
Selune
Yolanda
Tymora
but in a fantast world that contains magic, should have a sitting deity of magic......
and no Corellon doesnt really cut the mustard or cheese ....
ummm before I asnwer that, whcih Mystra are we talking aout??
you see I'd rather have Mystryl return over any of the others, and Midnight was exatcly on top of every one's favorite godess, Helm knows why they just couldnt of Destroyed the weave, and then Had her banished.
all aside, I'd rather they have a seitting deity of magic than one not present
I never liked Midnight. The only time I was really interesting in Mystra was in the Eliminster: Making of A Mage book.
I've never found any of the realms female deities all that interesting, but none of the Mystras have ever been on the top of my list.
midnight always seemed not to really know what to do....
stramgely enough, I have to agree with you with the making of the mage Mystra, I liked her too....
any way my favorite female diety list:
Meilikki
Sehanine
Selune
Yolanda
Tymora
but in a fantast world that contains magic, should have a sitting deity of magic......
and no Corellon doesnt really cut the mustard or cheese ....
That's a decent list. :P I'd put Sehanine on top, and I know next to nothing about Yolanda, but yeah...Mystra would be somewhere on the bottom, with the aformentioned novel version toward the top instead.
IMO, a fantastical world that contains so much magic is no more in need of a deity of magic, as such(a god whose primary domain is magic) about as much as it needs a god of multi-culturalism.
I just don't see any gap left from Oghma, Corellon, etc. There are muliple gods for arcanists to turn to, depending on what they're praying for/primarily focused on.
It'd be pretty cool if deneir came back as the god of arcane formulae. :P
Cyric;)....
I really want Mask to use a couple other gods by getting them to kill Cyric, while mask soaks up the loose "god energy", resulting in no more Cyric, and the return of Helm. If shaundakul is dead, he can come back too. :P
also...oh wait...I already started a thread about this...bad doctor...bad.
these forums are eating my brain. I blame Cyric.
