Now logicaly Mystra was the weave. That was what she was. She was not some guardian of the Weave but the Weave itself. Though admittly this seemed to change almost every month back in the 3rd ed days as the design team tried to handle it.
So if she was the Weave...and with the spellplague still raging...and blueflame stuff...is she really dead? Mmm...
Any comments? Did they come out with official lore that states that Mystra was not really the Weave?
She was whacked with the Staff of Savras(or was it Azuth, I forget). Didn't it hold the essence of another God for awhile? The Weave still exists in certain areas. Hence the outbreak of 'Spellplague' in certain areas(I know DM's can use it in their games as they see fit). So if Mystra was restored, the Weave would still exist for her to tap in to. Food for thought.
She was whacked with the Staff of Savras(or was it Azuth, I forget). Didn't it hold the essence of another God for awhile? The Weave still exists in certain areas. Hence the outbreak of 'Spellplague' in certain areas(I know DM's can use it in their games as they see fit). So if Mystra was restored, the Weave would still exist for her to tap in to. Food for thought.
I view it as the opposite. Cyric attack didn't quite killed her. It wound her badly...but lets be honest she has the potential power of Ao...so this wounded her greatly destorying if you will a great part of her. Which in turn teared the Weave. But she is still out there...probably driven wild by pain...but maybe still could be reached and healed.
Disclaimer: I still don't like the new Realms...but that does not mean I will blind myself to the possibilities either.
To add a bit more, in the excerpt of Greenwood's Elminster Must Die, in the back of Circle of Skulls, there is this small but very interesting tidbit:
- "They were the old guard, the paltry handful who still saw needs and cared. More than that... even with Mystra and Azuth both gone, someone still whispered in their dreams, telling them to go on sharing their magic among the poor and powerless, and working against evil rulers and all who used magic to harm and oppress."
Evidence that Mystra or Azuth might still exist in some form? Perhaps.
She was whacked with the Staff of Savras(or was it Azuth, I forget). Didn't it hold the essence of another God for awhile?
Indeed. Cyric used Azuth's staff, which has a property that allows it to store the spirit/essence of the intended target within the staff, effectively cutting the spirit off in a pocket dimension from which it can't escape without the staff-wielder's permission (I also figure destroying the staff would release the spirit, if it didn't obliterate it completely, but that's just my own gut feeling talking ;) ). Back in the day, Azuth used his staff to good effect when he was battling Savras; he trapped the god within the staff's "prison" and only released Savras when Mystra suggested it would be wise to do so and gain Savras as an ally.
As for Mystra's existence after the Spellplague, given the SP is still manifesting itself as azure fire even a century later, I feel as if some vestige of Mystra's sentience must still exist within it, perhaps even if only as an amalgamation of Mystra's memories and thoughts which no longer recognizes itself as the once-mighty goddess, or has great difficulty doing so.
I feel the case could be made that Mystra, Azuth, and/or Savras still exist in one form or another, even if it's only as the last few remnants of their consciousness trapped within the tattered leyline of the now-wild Weave.
Theres also that bit in the 4e FRCG about Mystra's Temple in Haluraa turning all crystaly blue, theres bound to be something up with that, I would definitely say that Mystra is still around, in some form or another.
The Crystal Egg of Mystra, hatching in 5e, at a game store near you... 
Also she put alot of her self into her Chosen, so as long as at least one of them lives, so to does Mystra.
As of 4e FR, post-Spellplague, there are no Chosen who aren't Exarchs of any deity. There aren't any Exarchs of Mystra around. (AFAIK) We already know Elminster lost his Chosen status when Mystra bit it. Wasn't he her favorite? If he lost it, I would be surprised if anyone else kept it, whomever they may be.
Interesting point. Do casters still "take" magic from the weave to cast spells in the post spellplague realms?
No, they tap into magic directly. The weave was never necessary to use magic. Fromt he FRCG: "For eons, magic in Toril was focused through the Weave, controlled by the goddess Mystra. Although Netherese wizards of ancient days learned the truth, most people believed that magic would not be possible without the deity’s existence. However, the death of Mystra gave the
lie to that belief. Now the term “Weave” is just another name for magic, if it is used at all."
Perhaps the weave was meant to make magic easier?
Now logicaly Mystra was the weave. That was what she was. She was not some guardian of the Weave but the Weave itself. Though admittly this seemed to change almost every month back in the 3rd ed days as the design team tried to handle it.
So if she was the Weave...and with the spellplague still raging...and blueflame stuff...is she really dead? Mmm...
Any comments? Did they come out with official lore that states that Mystra was not really the Weave?
The blue flames of the spellplague is, AFAIK, just raw magic. I know somewhere (in a book I think) I even saw it referred to as spellfire (which was also raw magic IIRC, it's been about 2 decades since I read that book).
So since magic has always been present and you never needed the Weave to use it in the first place, I don't know if you could say she was the Weave. (to be fair, I never paid much attention to the Realms in 3rd ed.) They always refer to her creating and controlling the weave. Considering this isn't the first time she died, I don't know if saying she is the weave is accurate otherwise such a thing would have happened long ago. I think something else happened to cause the weave to asplode, unless the Time of Troubles weakened the weave so when Mystra was killed again it split asunder.
Let's not forget that Shar lost control of the Shadow Weave and it collapsed as well, although obviously to not such detrimental of an effect.
And before people starting flaming for threadcrapping and raising a edition War.
1) I did start this thread...can you threadcrap your own thread?
2) This is how we got into the situration in the 1st place.
This rant is not against the 4th ED Realms...because the problems that caused this to come to head as been their since atleast 3rd edition. How can we make the FR our own when the designers and the authors are busy doing the same. I mean right now the only way to make it somebody's own really is to choose a point and say ok I am completely dirvoicing my Realms from the published line...and that is IMO a very bad design.
The Realms has a lot of great factors in it, but the bad right now outweighs the good. I am usualy very much against this option...but I think it is time to hit the reset button. I really think that is what is needed to save it.
Sorry for the rant, but I had to get that off my chest.
I would love a reset to the OGB, but using the 4E Conceits. Like the treatment Dark Sun is getting. But thats me. Narfell could be the defuct Tiefling Empire Bael Torath. Ruamathar(sp) could be the defunct Dragonborn Empire Arkosia. Netheril could be one of the defunct human empire of Nerath. The old Shoon empire could be a Genasi kingdom of old. The more I look at it I could make it work in my 4E Homebrew Realms. All psionic races could be from Jhaamdath ectera.
Yes someone can threadcrap their own thread.
I like the Novels, but they are hindering a re-set. Drizzt and El are cash cows.
I would love a reset to the OGB, but using the 4E Conceits. Like the treatment Dark Sun is getting. But thats me. Narfell could be the defuct Tiefling Empire Bael Torath. Ruamathar(sp) could be the defunct Dragonborn Empire Arkosia. Netheril could be one of the defunct human empire of Nerath. The old Shoon empire could be a Genasi kingdom of old. The more I look at it I could make it work in my 4E Homebrew Realms. All psionic races could be from Jhaamdath ectera.
Yes someone can threadcrap their own thread.
Actualy that would be my ideal campaign setting for them to do. Call it classic Realms. But you are right I don't think they will.
To paraphase a song: 'It is my thread and I will threadcrap if I want to'
Come on! This is pretty weak. What exactly happened then during the Time of Trouble? Why did magic go nuts if no deity was needed to "stabilize" the Weave? What about the Shadow Weave? It was also unnecessary? Shar just did it for fun? Please!
I feel insulted with the "we fooled you" all of that time retcon .
Wouldn't it have made more sense just to have said it took 100 years for the Weave to stabilize without a deity to control it?
I can't believe I'm still ranting about this stuff! Now I am a bit mad.
I am right there with you....just look at my rant.
And on the subject of a reboot, I hope it doesnt happen. Ive said this before, and Ill say it again, one of the things I love about the Realms is thats its constantly changing, and evolving, like a real world, it makes it seem more alive to me. If they did a reboot, i would see it as a major cop out, like when Bobby wasnt really dead on Dallas (for those of us who remember Dallas). Also Id see it as a cop out because I already bought 1357 Realms, why would I buy it again!? Unless of course they changed some stuff, but then what would be the point of a reboot then? Really if you got the 4e Rules and the older Realms Stuff, it should be pretty easy to convert the stuff over.
I would however fully support a reboot if they kept it truer to Eds original Realms, now that I would be willing to pay money for. Or what they should really do is put out different source books for different time periods, like they did with Star Wars.
As of 4e FR, post-Spellplague, there are no Chosen who aren't Exarchs of any deity. There aren't any Exarchs of Mystra around. (AFAIK) We already know Elminster lost his Chosen status when Mystra bit it. Wasn't he her favorite? If he lost it, I would be surprised if anyone else kept it, whomever they may be.
Yeah I think that was stated in the 4eFRCG, but personally I think thats BS! Elminster, The Simbul, Storm, and however many more of Mystra's Chosen are left still contain some of Mystra's power, after all theyre still alive almost a century after the "death" of their Deity, so regardless what the book says I still classify them as Chosen, that and thats one of the Epic Destinies for the Realms, Chosen, so yeah theres still some Chosen running around.
You could say the same lore was updated 2 times already.
I do agree about the Weave, the Realms didn't need it.
It was Mystra or Mystrly(sp) was of dominating the Realms. Just ask MarkusTay 63.
I bought most of the 1E stuff during the 2E run. As in products updating what came before. Same for the 3E.
You could say the same lore was updated 2 times already.
In some cases 3 times! I admit I was a sucker, I just had to have the Waterdeep and the north source book, and the 2e box set, and the 3e City ofSplendors book, and really its all the same info rehashed. At the time I was like yeah another Waterdeep book with yet another Waterdeep map cool! But looking back now I wish they would have put out more sourcebooks for areas they didnt cover, instead of covering the same ground, like maybe a Volo's Guide to Sembia.
Im starting to get a little side tracked from the topic of Mystra, she'll be back, its just a matter of time.
Or what they should really do is put out different source books for different time periods, like they did with Star Wars.
They will probably make to much money with this idea, so they won't do it.
I know, right! I would totally shell out some cash for that. The Arcane Age supplements were some of my favorites. Id love to see them do more like those.
The thing I like about 4e is that theres very few retcons, everything that happened in the past still happened, they just uped the timeline. Ed has stated many times that the Weave was not the only way to access magic, just the most popular way, but there were other methods for spell casting that bypassed the Weave and Mystra, this is not a retcon.
And on the subject of a reboot, I hope it doesnt happen. Ive said this before, and Ill say it again, one of the things I love about the Realms is thats its constantly changing, and evolving, like a real world, it makes it seem more alive to me. If they did a reboot, i would see it as a major cop out, like when Bobby wasnt really dead on Dallas (for those of us who remember Dallas). Also Id see it as a cop out because I already bought 1357 Realms, why would I buy it again!? Unless of course they changed some stuff, but then what would be the point of a reboot then? Really if you got the 4e Rules and the older Realms Stuff, it should be pretty easy to convert the stuff over.
I would however fully support a reboot if they kept it truer to Eds original Realms, now that I would be willing to pay money for. Or what they should really do is put out different source books for different time periods, like they did with Star Wars.
Sure there was...though here is what I saw happen...and why this is not so much about the 4E Realms but the evolution of the Realms.
1st ed...I don't even remember the Weave being mentioned as anything more that the souce of Arcane magic...
2nd ed : I think it was pretty much the same thing as in 1st ed. Remeber arcane did work because of the disruption of the weave w/ Mystra's powers being stripped...Divine did not work because the gods were not home to answear the prayers...so lesser beings had to.
3rd ed; It is the souce of all magic in the Realms...rather it be divine arcane or whatever. This is where it started to piss me off. Because it made them had to make Myrtra from being a simple goddess of magic to the uber goddess of the Realms who if she didn't have mutliple Choosen could kick the crap out od Ao...So then pretty much the same people who did this went uh-oh we created a monster...so they killed off a character ( that could have been intersting as a mortal becoming a god...and by the way would have made Cyric more interesting as a foil for her) to corrrect their
mistake.
4th ed: Well we did not mean it about what we said in 3rd...so here is a thousand octpusses all waving their tentacles with white glove on.( Meaning a whole lot of havd waveing).
I agree I would have loved to see the Realms grow...but to me their growth did not make any sense logicaly.
I bought most of the 1E stuff during the 2E run. As in products updating what came before. Same for the 3E.
You could say the same lore was updated 2 times already.
In some cases 3 times! I admit I was a sucker, I just had to have the Waterdeep and the north source book, and the 2e box set, and the 3e City ofSplendors book, and really its all the same info rehashed. At the time I was like yeah another Waterdeep book with yet another Waterdeep map cool! But looking back now I wish they would have put out more sourcebooks for areas they didnt cover, instead of covering the same ground, like maybe a Volo's Guide to Sembia.
Im starting to get a little side tracked from the topic of Mystra, she'll be back, its just a matter of time.
Just a mild point. How do you expect to see the Realms change if they don't cover some of the common ground from before?
And yes I think Mystra will be back.
Sure there was...though here is what I saw happen...and why this is not so much about the 4E Realms but the evolution of the Realms.
1st ed...I don't even remember the Weave being mentioned as anything more that the souce of Arcane magic...
2nd ed : I think it was pretty much the same thing as in 1st ed. Remeber arcane did work because of the disruption of the weave w/ Mystra's powers being stripped...Divine did not work because the gods were not home to answear the prayers...so lesser beings had to.
3rd ed; It is the souce of all magic in the Realms...rather it be divine arcane or whatever. This is where it started to piss me off. Because it made them had to make Myrtra from being a simple goddess of magic to the uber goddess of the Realms who if she didn't have mutliple Choosen could kick the crap out od Ao...So then pretty much the same people who did this went uh-oh we created a monster...so they killed off a character ( that could have been intersting as a mortal becoming a god...and by the way would have made Cyric more interesting as a foil for her) to corrrect their
mistake.
4th ed: Well we did not mean it about what we said in 3rd...so here is a thousand octpusses all waving their tentacles with white glove on.( Meaning a whole lot of havd waveing).
I agree I would have loved to see the Realms grow...but to me their growth did not make any sense logicaly.
Well the TSR/WotC designers may have gone with the Weave is magic, but Ed, who I consider to be the foremost expert in matters Realmsian, has long mantained the the Weave wasnt neccessary for magic to exist in the Realms, nor was it the only way to access magic.
But I see where youre coming from, Ive long had a few problems with the Weave as well. For instance, the Weave encompasses Realmspace, so if your wizard travels outside of Realmspace, say to Sigil or somesuch, then where is their magic coming from!? They should be cut off, being outside of the Weaves influence. Something else I never could quite get a handle on, the magic system of the Realms is just like the one used in Greyhawk, and any other D&D world. Why would Toril need a Weave so that magic acted just like in every other setting!? Theres alot of things about the Weave that just didnt make sense, maybe its for the best that they got rid of it?
I guess its one of those things that us mere mortals are not meant to know!
Sure there was...though here is what I saw happen...and why this is not so much about the 4E Realms but the evolution of the Realms.
1st ed...I don't even remember the Weave being mentioned as anything more that the souce of Arcane magic...
2nd ed : I think it was pretty much the same thing as in 1st ed. Remeber arcane did work because of the disruption of the weave w/ Mystra's powers being stripped...Divine did not work because the gods were not home to answear the prayers...so lesser beings had to.
3rd ed; It is the souce of all magic in the Realms...rather it be divine arcane or whatever. This is where it started to piss me off. Because it made them had to make Myrtra from being a simple goddess of magic to the uber goddess of the Realms who if she didn't have mutliple Choosen could kick the crap out od Ao...So then pretty much the same people who did this went uh-oh we created a monster...so they killed off a character ( that could have been intersting as a mortal becoming a god...and by the way would have made Cyric more interesting as a foil for her) to corrrect their
mistake.
4th ed: Well we did not mean it about what we said in 3rd...so here is a thousand octpusses all waving their tentacles with white glove on.( Meaning a whole lot of havd waveing).
I agree I would have loved to see the Realms grow...but to me their growth did not make any sense logicaly.
Well the TSR/WotC designers may have gone with the Weave is magic, but Ed, who I consider to be the foremost expert in matters Realmsian, has long mantained the the Weave wasnt neccessary for magic to exist in the Realms, nor was it the only way to access magic.
But I see where youre coming from, Ive long had a few problems with the Weave as well. For instance, the Weave encompasses Realmspace, so if your wizard travels outside of Realmspace, say to Sigil or somesuch, then where is their magic coming from!? They should be cut off, being outside of the Weaves influence. Something else I never could quite get a handle on, the magic system of the Realms is just like the one used in Greyhawk, and any other D&D world. Why would Toril need a Weave so that magic acted just like in every other setting!? Theres alot of things about the Weave that just didnt make sense, maybe its for the best that they got rid of it?
I guess its one of those things that us mere mortals are not meant to know!
Well here is how I have always thought of the Weave. It is everywhere...every body uses it. They have in the planes...it is in Greyhawk...it is in DL...it is DS (though it is screwed up there). The difference is that the people who made the FR just came up qwith a name that all Magic is based on. That is how I looked at since 1st ed. But then again I always loved the fact that it was share universe etc.
As to Mr. Greenwood...I think everybody would have been a whole lot happier if he had decided to wait to published the FR till say 3rd edition and the op game liscense...though I don'r know If I would have liked it as much as I do know. Remember Ed' FR is a very different place then what was even published in the Grey Box. I it was not just Ed...but others works also made it great.
I always saw a "Weave" present in almost every world/plane (except Athas/Dark Sun).
The only difference was that in the Realms the Weave had an incarnation/guardian.
Now Krynn that world is complecated. It's mages sound more like clerics to me.
Again you beat me to the punch with your simple summaries of my thoughts. Get out of my mind. ;)
You guys might be on to something there, That would explain how Weave casters from Toril could still cast spells in Mystara or where ever, or maybe there never really was a Weave, maybe Mystra just told people that to make her self feel important.
Of course we are I am a genius and Goldomark has somehow tapped into my brain. ;)
Serously Mystra was just another deity of Magic that used to hang out with Wee Jas(Grey Hawk deity of magic) and have tea. I perfer to keep the weave as the souce of Arcane power.
Sure you can do magic without a Weave...but soon will end up with a big desert...Dark Sun...
And this is how I still run my game...if I was DMing anymore..maybe soon.
I don't think so. Remember Mulrohandi(sp) gods like Set, Isis and Thoth all where gods of magic in their region. I think Ubtao was also a god of magic in Chult.
It seems that the Weave in the FR needed a god to make it stable or so people could tap into it. Ao is probably responsable for this.
Mystra was once face of many that represented the Weave.
Well that can be said true for everywhere. All places had gods of magic to keep it stable....heck many of them had serveral. Well the one exception though just proves the point with what happens when you don't have a deity keeping the Weave stable...Dark Sun.
Evidently my tin foil hat is keeping you out of my mind...Foiled again Goldomark ;)
I still like my idea of there never was a Weave, its just how mortals perceived how magic works on Toril. Of course the whole Spellplague thing blows a big hole in that theory.
I think another important purpose of the Weave was it allowed Mystra to govern magic, In the days of Netheril magic worked alittle diferently, and you could cast 12th level spells. After the fall of Netheril Mystra put a cap on that, and perhaps thought it better to have magic work in Realmspace, as it did in other worlds. Perhaps way back when the Weave acted as a sort of amplifier for magic?
Maybe the battles between Shar and Selune did something to the Weave. After all Mystra didn't exist at the beginning but magic did and it was stable and usable.
Those battle might of made the Weave vulnerable or fragile and Mystra emerge to stabilize everything. She wasn't necessary, but that would have ment 100 years of spellplague and residual blue fires before things became comparable to other worlds.
Ah but who exactly needed the Weave back in the days before Mystra...there was only three goddess at this point: Selune, Shar, and Chauntea. Selune used the Weave to seed the Toril with life. Shar got upset( jealous) and attacked her. Selune then threw the Weave engeries at her creating Mystra. Gods don't need the Weave to use magic. Mortals do. That is why a gods magic can't really be effected by mortal(AKA Weave) magic. So I would argue no there was no mortal magic on Toril before the Weave was brought in.
Note: This is how I viewed the logic of how the D&D universe worked based on the old lore of D&D. Just want to make that clear.
Gods don't need the Weave to use magic. Mortals do. That is why a gods magic can't really be effected by mortal(AKA Weave) magic. So I would argue no there was no mortal magic on Toril before the Weave was brought in.
You forget that Mystra could take away a god's magical powers just by thinking it.
She did it to Tyr for 7 years.
Yes this the point that my idea on how magic works inb the D&D universe breaks down in sudden addition to the lore and a vast increase of power Mystra recieved...it was also at this point they started to break down the idea that D&D worlds were interconnected and actualy separate universe in themselves. So Tyr stopped being the actual Norse God and became a god that was very similar but diffwerent from the Norse God.
Yeah. They were the same god yet they had different aspects.
Loth was a good example too.
I miss those days. Sniff.
That is why the disillusionment started in the 3rd ed days...4th was really just the straw that broke the camel back for me. And I look at this way...if Tyr was still the norse god...and I think Helm was really one in disguise that silly retareded duel would never had happened because Odin would have kicked both of their arses and told them to behave.
Would love to actualy meet you and Silver Sword and other and just talk about this...all this typing is hurting my fingers. Maybe even start up a classic FR campaign...
That dual is retarded. Do we know who had the idea?
Trust me, you would find me annoying. I dissagree alot with people.
I have no idea. Also...those days are not over...that is the way I run my game.
I don't mind people disagreeing me as long as they like to discuss it( though some would call it argueing). I and my oldest friend love to argue with each other...we once spent a 7 hours discussing something rather pretty silly...it was at a dinner...we went and got a late dinner and ended up ordering breakfest. Also we seem to agree...somewhat.
I dont know if I would of called the Duel retarded. Poorly implemeted perhaps. I mean theres got to be more to the story, really what we know is just a brief summary of those events. I mean it might of been a truely Epic battle! Well were taking about 2 gods duking it out, so hell yeah it would be epic.
Who knows who thought it up, or why? My feeling is that they decided that there were too many "Justice" gods running around, and they wanted to trim the Panthoen down, and have a more universal Pantheon, which I admit I like to a degree. But yeah some of things that they did with the gods I was like NOOOOOOOOOOO! Like the whole aspect thing. I dont like how they say Sehanine is really Selune or Talos is really Grummsh. They should of worded it like both Sehanine and Selune are aspects of the same god, not x is really y, I think thats a little misleading, and certainly not something a mortal worshiper would understand.
I can get behing the whole aspect thing otherwise, thats actually how I do it for my homebrew world. Theres not an Elven god of the hunt, or a Gnome god of the hunt, theres just one god of the Hunt, but of course the Elves see him/her as an Elf, and the Dwarves see it as being a Dwarf, etc.
"Shouldn't at least SOME magic stay stable when Mystra is out if other forms of magic exist without her?"
Maybe that's because the Mulhorandi / Chultan gods are just aspects of the other gods of the Faerunian Pantheon.
I always liked that idea.
As for me, i am quite sure that Mystra will be back. I haven't added anything like it in my FR campaign yet, but it would be nice to play an invoker actually carrying the essence of Mystra in him / her. Upon reaching 30th lvl (immortality and so on...) the essence might burst free and she's back. Quite a story.
"I can get behing the whole aspect thing otherwise, thats actually how I do it for my homebrew world. Theres not an Elven god of the hunt, or a Gnome god of the hunt, theres just one god of the Hunt, but of course the Elves see him/her as an Elf, and the Dwarves see it as being a Dwarf, etc."
Just like Paladine and Fizban in Dragonlance. Merely the different point of view of ignorant mortals.
"Shouldn't at least SOME magic stay stable when Mystra is out if other forms of magic exist without her?"
Maybe that's because the Mulhorandi / Chultan gods are just aspects of the other gods of the Faerunian Pantheon.I always liked that idea.
As for me, i am quite sure that Mystra will be back. I haven't added anything like it in my FR campaign yet, but it would be nice to play an invoker actually carrying the essence of Mystra in him / her. Upon reaching 30th lvl (immortality and so on...) the essence might burst free and she's back. Quite a story.
Well some magic did stay stable. some magic items survived, and Psionics would still work, Possibly Primal powered casters like Druids might still be able to use their powers. I could see Warlocks still being able cast spells as well. Not too sure about Divine, it was tied in with the Weave too. Im guessing that Abeirian magic would still have worked too, being that they wouldnt of haved a Weave in the first place, maybe thats where Toril's wizards leraned it from? And it just spread from there, and no everyones doing it.
Its possible too that perhaps they followed the Psions lead. Spells seemed to be powered by the caster and not the Weave now. After all the way it works in 4e you dont necessarily have to memorize new spells, you just need a few minutes to gather your energies, then you can cast those encounter powers again.
And yeah that does sound like a pretty cool character idea, but if the wrong beings found out who and what you are...
Ah yes the Duel. hey waitaminute, I thought we was talking about Mystra and the Weaves?
It is all related. Don't believe me...read the entire thread.
But really...I don't want EPIC BTTLES...over the stupidest and out of character things ever. It was a great idea...but couldn't the duel be over something that actualy has to do with who the gods are...and not some silly soap opera romance BS that does not fit any of the gods...I mean Tymora...dude she is like the village bycycle...everybody gets a ride...and I don't see her changing...or Tyr to fall into this silly romantic love...and ok let s say it happened...I do not see Helm being stupid enough to get caught in the middle of this.
Besides in opinion you can never have too many gods. I personaly wanted more.
Just like Paladine and Fizban in Dragonlance. Merely the different point of view of ignorant mortals.
Ah yes good ol Fizban, if you havnt yet, Id suggest reading the Deathgate Cycle. Fizban makes an appreance in there, although he uses a different name, its been years since ive read it, i think its Nabfiz.
Ugh, getting side tracked again.
Any way I think the Duel would of been cool if it was written out more, perhaps in a novel.
Argh no wait the topic is supposed to be Mystra! Im way off now.
Besides in opinion you can never have too many gods. I personaly wanted more.
Yeah thats something that they definitely steared away from with 4e. IN previous editions they made it pretty clear that there were many other gods not listed for space. There were plenty of "local" gods. I think that does definitely spice things up some, I mean your in a foriegn land, it would make sense that they would worship different gods. Regardless what the book says, I would say that many of these gods are still worshipped, and the Elves still pray to Selune as Sehanine.
All of this is why I'm playing in 1336DR at the moment... and ignore the existance of 4e entirely. 3e was bad enough, and in retrospect should have been obvious as the beginning of the end, given all the quiet retcons and alterations they made to things. While I loved the ruleset from 3e, I didn't much care for the fluff, and used mostly 2e fluff... despite hating the 2e ruleset.
No, they tap into magic directly. The weave was never necessary to use magic. Fromt he FRCG: "For eons, magic in Toril was focused through the Weave, controlled by the goddess Mystra. Although Netherese wizards of ancient days learned the truth, most people believed that magic would not be possible without the deity’s existence. However, the death of Mystra gave the
lie to that belief. Now the term “Weave” is just another name for magic, if it is used at all."
Perhaps the weave was meant to make magic easier?
What the book is saying there is that you can use magic outside of the weave, it's just much harder to do and so people used the weave. It was the "easy" way of accessing magic so people did so. When the weave collapsed spellcasters had to learn to use magic in other ways, discovering that the weave wasn't the only reason to tap into magic. This is the explanation for why Netheril - which is full of magic - didn't explode in the spellplague. The ancient magic they used for many of their things wasn't weave reliant, so it didn't go exploding like Halruua did.
But really...I don't want EPIC BTTLES...over the stupidest and out of character things ever. It was a great idea...but couldn't the duel be over something that actualy has to do with who the gods are...and not some silly soap opera romance BS that does not fit any of the gods...I mean Tymora...dude she is like the village bycycle...everybody gets a ride...and I don't see her changing...or Tyr to fall into this silly romantic love...and ok let s say it happened...I do not see Helm being stupid enough to get caught in the middle of this.
Tyr finally got his chance to 'ride' the village bicycle, and didn't want to get off. Helm already got to 'ride' the village bicycle came around just to kick it and Mr. I just got some(It's been a while) got jealous. Yeah it does sound a lot like High School. Fast Times at Tyrmont High...
But yes, it is very 90210 isn't it?
Just like Paladine and Fizban in Dragonlance. Merely the different point of view of ignorant mortals.
Ah yes good ol Fizban, if you havnt yet, Id suggest reading the Deathgate Cycle. Fizban makes an appreance in there, although he uses a different name, its been years since ive read it, i think its Nabfiz.
Ugh, getting side tracked again.
Any way I think the Duel would of been cool if it was written out more, perhaps in a novel.
Argh no wait the topic is supposed to be Mystra! Im way off now.
Well conversations evole and go to places that is beyond the orginal topic at hand. This all relates to Mystra still..so don't worry about it.
I rewrote things that Tyr was killed by a primordial in an heroic defense (In other words Tyr died doing something useful) instead of that nonsense. I left Helm dying in the same circumstances described in the FRCG.
But yes, it is very 90210 isn't it?
It was Helm that dies in the duel...Tyr died a heroic death I think against a demonic forces.
Was it? Either way I never paid it any attention because it was so violently stupid that I rewrote it out entirely in a more sensible way then promptly forgot about it.
I can agree there.
Often that means rewriting how things with the gods happened. I've deliberately left how the village idiot (Cyric) managed to kill Mystra in her own backyard out of the picture though. I still have no idea how that happened.
It's like the Sharn article they released. I know the FR version is something to do with Elves (urgh, why ruin such awesome monsters with Elves of all bloody things) and when I read the default "PoL" origin I was just "Oh that's so amazing!" so I used it instead. I've become a lot more comfortable since the 4E FRCG in completely ignoring canon and just writing whatever I feel makes a better story/scenario in these days.
Often that means rewriting how things with the gods happened. I've deliberately left how the village idiot (Cyric) managed to kill Mystra in her own backyard out of the picture though. I still have no idea how that happened.
Well it was always the designers intention for people to make the Realms your own, although with 4e's low lore Realms, they kinda force it on you. Oddly enough I often ignore or slighty changed canon in previous editions games, however in 4e ive been stickinig prety close to canon. I want to make it a point that things have changed so ive kept all the changes in the book, Helm is dead, Halruaa blowedup, etc., etc. Of course most of the players are newbs when it comes to the Realms so they dont know any better anyway.
And Cyric managed to off Mystra, because he is just awesome like that!
And Cyric managed to off Mystra, because he is just awesome like that!
Wait I thought you said she was possibly alive before? So he did not off her. So how awesome is he?
And Cyric managed to off Mystra, because he is just awesome like that!
Wait I thought you said she was possibly alive before? So he did not off her. So how awesome is he?
Youre right, I was just saying that wasnt I? I should be a little more clearer, I believe Mystra still exists, in some form or another, but Midnight is definitely dead, and Cyric definitely killed her, so yea Cyric, the One and the All!
Give the guy a break... I mean, he's never even played BG, so that right there should tell you that he's not worth paying much attention to...
Hey thanks for backin me up man,
er
hey!
My own personal hope is that with Helm dead, we can get a little piece of the old Mystra's essence released and merged with her divine energy to bring back the one, true Mystra to slap Cyric silly, the little prick of a poseur of a half-baked deity.
He shall fall by the hands of his own followers
so sayeth Shar
And Cyric managed to off Mystra, because he is just awesome like that!
Wait I thought you said she was possibly alive before? So he did not off her. So how awesome is he?
Youre right, I was just saying that wasnt I? I should be a little more clearer, I believe Mystra still exists, in some form or another, but Midnight is definitely dead, and Cyric definitely killed her, so yea Cyric, the One and the All!
Well just to point out...others have done that and stuff...so again how is he the One and All...I mean he is currently one of three.
By the way..I personaly think this was a story mistake...Cyric without Midnight is not as interesting of a character. It could have been a great story...sigh.
Well just to point out...others have done that and stuff...so again how is he the One and All...I mean he is currently one of three.
By the way..I personaly think this was a story mistake...Cyric without Midnight is not as interesting of a character. It could have been a great story...sigh.
Nuh uh, nobody else has killed Midnight!
but seriously, yeah you bring up a good point, It would make more sense to me that Cyric would go after Kelemvor, after all I think he had a crush on Midnight, but perhaps Shar persuaded him to go after Midnight first, and then they could take out Kelemvor next, but then Cyric got banished and everything, so that plan fell through?
Something else I just remembered, Cyric knew Midnight/Mystra's mortal name, so maybe that gave him some degree of power over her? Granted it wasnt her Truename, but it still might have gave him an edge.
The Lord of Murder shall perish,
He shall fall by the hands of his own followers
so sayeth Shar
Im sure Shar was planning on taking out Cyric after he served his purpose, but of course knowing Cyric, he was also probably planning on taking her out as well.
Well just to point out...others have done that and stuff...so again how is he the One and All...I mean he is currently one of three.
By the way..I personaly think this was a story mistake...Cyric without Midnight is not as interesting of a character. It could have been a great story...sigh.
Nuh uh, nobody else has killed Midnight!
but seriously, yeah you bring up a good point, It would make more sense to me that Cyric would go after Kelemvor, after all I think he had a crush on Midnight, but perhaps Shar persuaded him to go after Midnight first, and then they could take out Kelemvor next, but then Cyric got banished and everything, so that plan fell through?
Something else I just remembered, Cyric knew Midnight/Mystra's mortal name, so maybe that gave him some degree of power over her? Granted it wasnt her Truename, but it still might have gave him an edge.
I meant killing Mystra...you know like Karsus...and Helm...;)
No I can see him going after Midnight...it is with in the profile of people like him when rejected. What I meant is that I think they were a interesting foil to each other. Or could have been if better written. It would be like if Shar finally kills Selune...or if Cap. America kills the Red Shull or if the FF offs Doctor Doom...
Yeah...yeah I know all about the name thing...and the hint that they threw at the end of the Avartar seris...where Cyric pretty much muses to himself about if knowing her real name might be off some use. But I don't know...I would think once you become a god you left those things behind...especialy since she took Mystra's name. But you are right it probably was used to some degree of effect...but I still don't have to like it. ;)
The Lord of Murder shall perish,
He shall fall by the hands of his own followers
so sayeth Shar
Im sure Shar was planning on taking out Cyric after he served his purpose, but of course knowing Cyric, he was also probably planning on taking her out as well.
Now I have a idea which I doubt they would ever use but....imagine if you will that Cyric went to Mystra/Midnight burried the hatchet and well schemed with her to fake her death after Shar approach him about the plot to kill Mystra. He would do this because in his sick lust he would prove to her that he is a hero. Now they are merely waiting for Shar to make her next move...and hit her hard. Now that would be a Master of lies kinda of move I could respect.
Coming soon to a Realms near you...
Pretty dark one at that too, with magic embracing its potential for lies and murder combined with Mystra's bashfull ingenuity and strive for progress. It would give fearunian magic as a whole a more unreliable and sinister edge that I definately could warm up to.
EDIT: I think the arcane research taking place around 1374 DR and onwards was already getting highly specialised, which encouraged even more research into new spells for gathering information from rival arcane organisations. Some arcane research processes already had a seedy underbelly where magic research was done in secret under illegal circumstances.
To get that dark-renaissance inspiration the designers intended you can give this proces wings and have that as the explenation for a new magic system. It might have emerged after a century of strife amongst the arcane infrastructure, especially if certain Cyricist influenced guilds resorted to more underhanded methods like sabotage and espionage.
@Suin_Bahhar_02: I would probably go in a different direction but I like your idea also.
This thread has suddenly taken a darker turn!
Hell, one could even justify the Spellplague as vindictiveness on her part to get even with the spellcasters who never paid her more than lip service...
Yep, definitely liking the idea even more.
Another idea I have do go with the selune vs Shar theme. Pretty much as Selune powers is on the low end of cycle Mystra has to step towards that side of the equation to maintain the balance. Now as Selune's power rises...an in my mind Shar gets a little weaker...Mystra has to adopt a more neutral approach in the equation. It would have been intersting in seeing Midnight go though this...
I wouldn't make her evil either, it just doesn't fit the Realms well. I'm more thinking going back to her pre-ToT sort of mindset, personally.
Pretty much my goal. As I think that becoming a god...you sorta of loose yourself. Which...personaly is why I like Mystra...she was going though that...and dislike Cyric(well one of the reasons) is that he didn't.
Just like Paladine and Fizban in Dragonlance. Merely the different point of view of ignorant mortals.
Ah yes good ol Fizban, if you havnt yet, Id suggest reading the Deathgate Cycle. Fizban makes an appreance in there, although he uses a different name, its been years since ive read it, i think its Nabfiz.
Ugh, getting side tracked again.
Any way I think the Duel would of been cool if it was written out more, perhaps in a novel.
Argh no wait the topic is supposed to be Mystra! Im way off now.
Well conversations evole and go to places that is beyond the orginal topic at hand. This all relates to Mystra still..so don't worry about it.
I rewrote things that Tyr was killed by a primordial in an heroic defense (In other words Tyr died doing something useful) instead of that nonsense. I left Helm dying in the same circumstances described in the FRCG.
But yes, it is very 90210 isn't it?
It was Helm that dies in the duel...Tyr died a heroic death I think against a demonic forces.
Was it? Either way I never paid it any attention because it was so violently stupid that I rewrote it out entirely in a more sensible way then promptly forgot about it.
I can agree there.
Often that means rewriting how things with the gods happened. I've deliberately left how the village idiot (Cyric) managed to kill Mystra in her own backyard out of the picture though. I still have no idea how that happened.
It's like the Sharn article they released. I know the FR version is something to do with Elves (urgh, why ruin such awesome monsters with Elves of all bloody things) and when I read the default "PoL" origin I was just "Oh that's so amazing!" so I used it instead. I've become a lot more comfortable since the 4E FRCG in completely ignoring canon and just writing whatever I feel makes a better story/scenario in these days.
Often that means rewriting how things with the gods happened. I've deliberately left how the village idiot (Cyric) managed to kill Mystra in her own backyard out of the picture though. I still have no idea how that happened.
Well it was always the designers intention for people to make the Realms your own, although with 4e's low lore Realms, they kinda force it on you. Oddly enough I often ignore or slighty changed canon in previous editions games, however in 4e ive been stickinig prety close to canon. I want to make it a point that things have changed so ive kept all the changes in the book, Helm is dead, Halruaa blowedup, etc., etc. Of course most of the players are newbs when it comes to the Realms so they dont know any better anyway.
And Cyric managed to off Mystra, because he is just awesome like that!
And Cyric managed to off Mystra, because he is just awesome like that!
Wait I thought you said she was possibly alive before? So he did not off her. So how awesome is he?
And Cyric managed to off Mystra, because he is just awesome like that!
Wait I thought you said she was possibly alive before? So he did not off her. So how awesome is he?
Youre right, I was just saying that wasnt I? I should be a little more clearer, I believe Mystra still exists, in some form or another, but Midnight is definitely dead, and Cyric definitely killed her, so yea Cyric, the One and the All!
Give the guy a break... I mean, he's never even played BG, so that right there should tell you that he's not worth paying much attention to...
Hey thanks for backin me up man,
er
hey!
My own personal hope is that with Helm dead, we can get a little piece of the old Mystra's essence released and merged with her divine energy to bring back the one, true Mystra to slap Cyric silly, the little prick of a poseur of a half-baked deity.
He shall fall by the hands of his own followers
so sayeth Shar
And Cyric managed to off Mystra, because he is just awesome like that!
Wait I thought you said she was possibly alive before? So he did not off her. So how awesome is he?
Youre right, I was just saying that wasnt I? I should be a little more clearer, I believe Mystra still exists, in some form or another, but Midnight is definitely dead, and Cyric definitely killed her, so yea Cyric, the One and the All!
Well just to point out...others have done that and stuff...so again how is he the One and All...I mean he is currently one of three.
By the way..I personaly think this was a story mistake...Cyric without Midnight is not as interesting of a character. It could have been a great story...sigh.
Well just to point out...others have done that and stuff...so again how is he the One and All...I mean he is currently one of three.
By the way..I personaly think this was a story mistake...Cyric without Midnight is not as interesting of a character. It could have been a great story...sigh.
Nuh uh, nobody else has killed Midnight!
but seriously, yeah you bring up a good point, It would make more sense to me that Cyric would go after Kelemvor, after all I think he had a crush on Midnight, but perhaps Shar persuaded him to go after Midnight first, and then they could take out Kelemvor next, but then Cyric got banished and everything, so that plan fell through?
Something else I just remembered, Cyric knew Midnight/Mystra's mortal name, so maybe that gave him some degree of power over her? Granted it wasnt her Truename, but it still might have gave him an edge.
The Lord of Murder shall perish,
He shall fall by the hands of his own followers
so sayeth Shar
Im sure Shar was planning on taking out Cyric after he served his purpose, but of course knowing Cyric, he was also probably planning on taking her out as well.
Well just to point out...others have done that and stuff...so again how is he the One and All...I mean he is currently one of three.
By the way..I personaly think this was a story mistake...Cyric without Midnight is not as interesting of a character. It could have been a great story...sigh.
Nuh uh, nobody else has killed Midnight!
but seriously, yeah you bring up a good point, It would make more sense to me that Cyric would go after Kelemvor, after all I think he had a crush on Midnight, but perhaps Shar persuaded him to go after Midnight first, and then they could take out Kelemvor next, but then Cyric got banished and everything, so that plan fell through?
Something else I just remembered, Cyric knew Midnight/Mystra's mortal name, so maybe that gave him some degree of power over her? Granted it wasnt her Truename, but it still might have gave him an edge.
I meant killing Mystra...you know like Karsus...and Helm...;)
No I can see him going after Midnight...it is with in the profile of people like him when rejected. What I meant is that I think they were a interesting foil to each other. Or could have been if better written. It would be like if Shar finally kills Selune...or if Cap. America kills the Red Shull or if the FF offs Doctor Doom...
Yeah...yeah I know all about the name thing...and the hint that they threw at the end of the Avartar seris...where Cyric pretty much muses to himself about if knowing her real name might be off some use. But I don't know...I would think once you become a god you left those things behind...especialy since she took Mystra's name. But you are right it probably was used to some degree of effect...but I still don't have to like it. ;)
The Lord of Murder shall perish,
He shall fall by the hands of his own followers
so sayeth Shar
Im sure Shar was planning on taking out Cyric after he served his purpose, but of course knowing Cyric, he was also probably planning on taking her out as well.
Now I have a idea which I doubt they would ever use but....imagine if you will that Cyric went to Mystra/Midnight burried the hatchet and well schemed with her to fake her death after Shar approach him about the plot to kill Mystra. He would do this because in his sick lust he would prove to her that he is a hero. Now they are merely waiting for Shar to make her next move...and hit her hard. Now that would be a Master of lies kinda of move I could respect.
Coming soon to a Realms near you...
Pretty dark one at that too, with magic embracing its potential for lies and murder combined with Mystra's bashfull ingenuity and strive for progress. It would give fearunian magic as a whole a more unreliable and sinister edge that I definately could warm up to.
EDIT: I think the arcane research taking place around 1374 DR and onwards was already getting highly specialised, which encouraged even more research into new spells for gathering information from rival arcane organisations. Some arcane research processes already had a seedy underbelly where magic research was done in secret under illegal circumstances.
To get that dark-renaissance inspiration the designers intended you can give this proces wings and have that as the explenation for a new magic system. It might have emerged after a century of strife amongst the arcane infrastructure, especially if certain Cyricist influenced guilds resorted to more underhanded methods like sabotage and espionage.
@Suin_Bahhar_02: I would probably go in a different direction but I like your idea also.
This thread has suddenly taken a darker turn!
Hell, one could even justify the Spellplague as vindictiveness on her part to get even with the spellcasters who never paid her more than lip service...
Yep, definitely liking the idea even more.
Another idea I have do go with the selune vs Shar theme. Pretty much as Selune powers is on the low end of cycle Mystra has to step towards that side of the equation to maintain the balance. Now as Selune's power rises...an in my mind Shar gets a little weaker...Mystra has to adopt a more neutral approach in the equation. It would have been intersting in seeing Midnight go though this...
I wouldn't make her evil either, it just doesn't fit the Realms well. I'm more thinking going back to her pre-ToT sort of mindset, personally.
Pretty much my goal. As I think that becoming a god...you sorta of loose yourself. Which...personaly is why I like Mystra...she was going though that...and dislike Cyric(well one of the reasons) is that he didn't.