Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shodanicron Jan 01, 2009 19:13:17	Hi all I have been searching the net over the last few days trying to find a description of the style of armor of the netherese. What material, style, real world equivalents in design etc did they use or favour. also if anyone has anything similar on their weaponry that would be cool. its a bit obscure but as someone who like to Draw out with pen and paper interesting features armors and weapons for my players some general guidance would be of help. thanks for your time
#2 Stigger Jan 01, 2009 19:25:20	Netheril: Empire of Magic from 2e has a very brief section describing historical examples, though the section is exceptionally brief and notes that most of their armor was obtained from dwarves... not much said about weapons, beyond noting that they didn't use lances and hinted at little use of cavalry, with emphasis on infantry who used polearms and the like. It can be downloaded for free from the Downloads section to the left, under older editons, if its of interest. As to modern examples of reborn Netheril, I haven't the foggiest idea.
#3 shodanicron Jan 01, 2009 19:36:15	Aye thanks for the reply Stigger i have noted the old descriptions also from the free download you mentioned, noting that info on the dwarves,etc its actually a brilliant free little handbook and i have taken a great deal from it in term of how i view the netherese. which i find one of the more facinating things about faerun. alas however, as you say it is brief on physical description. I tried using the cover art of that very tome (well the one with the phaerimm on it), in order to get an understanding of their style of dress and martial armaments but i didnt know should i trust it. i think it borders on something of barbarian, light furs and simple shin and breastplate guards? also favoring broad bladed swords with circular crossguards. etc i take it that the fighting class of the society would not be as well armed or developed as the magic users
#4 Stigger Jan 01, 2009 19:45:20	Well, keep in mind that the barbarians of Tun and one of the Uthgardt (Red Tiger maybe?) tribes are some of the closest descendents of low Netheril, so it might not be that far off. I'd say it was a good bet that they weren't as well armed or developed, maybe even stunted, compared to their wizards... pretty much everyone who wasn't a wizard was effectively a second-class citizen, and I can't say I can recall any great Netherese military victories that weren't accomplished by spellcasters. Consider the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of the Netherese successor states after the fall against the elves of Cormanthyr... fair to say that they were little more than an annoyance to the elves.
#5 shodanicron Jan 01, 2009 19:56:56	aye, hadnt thought of the whole uthgardt successor view at all. nice one!! it does make a great deal of sense. "call on the ruffians we need something stabbed" kind of approach. i heavily dislike the idea the nethesese had developed full plate and the like. one or two generals might have picked up one or had one made by the dwarves but i still think that they(netherese warriors) might have seen it as a cowardly style. Throughout most of the source books i have rarely seen any major artifact weapons or armors. none that had a descriptions at any rate but i could be very wrongly mistaken. thanks
#6 Nolwelen Jan 01, 2009 20:05:07	Well I imagine their armor to have had greek features. Dont know how to justify that, but it fits my picture somehow. I guess its because somewhere I stumbled across a mentioning of netherese Myrmidons. And yes, the old greek had armies which were made up mostly by infantry regiments. I guess roman features would fit as well. Keep the persian stuff for the Imaskari and you have a very fine distinction between them.
#7 shodanicron Jan 01, 2009 20:11:54	aye pretty good analogy there. im loath once again to go roman on the netherese and prefer the greek idea you mention the persian or middle eastern/imaskari idea does slot in nicely with that.
#8 Nolwelen Jan 01, 2009 20:15:49	Remember my words, earlier or later the two magical empires will clash on the surface of Toril, below and above and then we all will have to take a side. :evillaugh
#9 shodanicron Jan 01, 2009 20:17:59	oh nethesese for sure the imaskari are fond of purple!! they are sure to loose on a serious note though any other thoughts or findings on the matter would be cool.
#10 Nolwelen Jan 01, 2009 20:31:20	Well if you like the "greek appearance" idea, look out for pictures of spartan armors and weapons. They had damn cool helmets let me tell ya. The spartan picture really would fit the "Low Netheril" life style. Couragous, passionate and religous. The Spartans had a strong believe in the gods, especially Ares and in Oracles, especially the Oracle of Delphi. "High Netheril" society functions more like Athens. Where they were more skeptical about religion, but had a strong believe into science and philosophy. Here I got some pictures of spartan helmets I found awesome: or Here a spartan sword: Here a spartan Cuirass:
#11 iakhovas Jan 02, 2009 0:36:10	Well I imagine their armor to have had greek features. Dont know how to justify that, but it fits my picture somehow. I guess its because somewhere I stumbled across a mentioning of netherese Myrmidons. And yes, the old greek had armies which were made up mostly by infantry regiments. I guess roman features would fit as well. Keep the persian stuff for the Imaskari and you have a very fine distinction between them. You may be thinking of the Netherese myrmidar mentioned in the Grand History, p.34
#12 Nolwelen Jan 02, 2009 1:40:16	You may be thinking of the Netherese myrmidar mentioned in the Grand History, p.34 Oh yes, and "Phalanxes" are mentioned as well. Thats a term by which the greek refered to "units".
#13 Stigger Jan 02, 2009 3:22:31	It also refers to a specific military unit formation... and a CIWS in use with several navies... among other things.
#14 Zireael Jan 02, 2009 3:55:07	Yeah, I always imagined Netheril as something akin to the Ancient Greece/Rome. You could mix them up and get the Netherese style.
#15 Stigger Jan 02, 2009 4:20:10	Interesting thought... Greco-Roman was more Chondathan to me. Never have concluded if I thought the the Netherese had a RW counterpart... can't think of any that come to mind though.
#16 BadCatMan Jan 02, 2009 5:07:13	Don't forget How The Mighty Are Fallen, an adventure set in old Netheril, available in the previous editions downloads that Stigger mentioned. I looked through the two sourcebooks. Curiously, while the internal illustrations seem to be generic medieval in style, the cover artwork of the sourcebooks and novels is general an older fur-and-horns barbarian style, like Dark Sun but with more metal. For novel covers, start here. (Small, but you get the idea.)
#17 shodanicron Jan 02, 2009 5:17:49	aye. I had initially designed a set of netherese armor that was very outlandish and abstract compared to anything real, it was made up of long curves crescent points. and then i stumbled upon the source book covers and i was like.. hold on a minute i might be taking the wrong tack. I like the idea of iron work or even bronze, like in the pictures of the greek breastplate above. http://www.claytonemery.com/DangerousGames1200.jpg nice picture here, which i something im planning on going for.
#18 markustay63 Jan 02, 2009 7:34:00	And the best part is, the soldiers also carry a shield, When combined with the helmet, you get a nice little broom and dustpan combination there, good for those messy after-battle clean-ups. :D More serious input: I don't know about 'classic Netheril' - I never imagined them anything like Greeks or Romans (they are of a completely different ethnic group then the Chondathans). However, I do picture the 'modern Netherease' looking very much like the Necromunger from Chronicles of Riddick. Must be the whole "appearing out of nowhere from the sky and taking everything over" thing, combined with the 'death' association of both (since 'Shadow' now = negative energy).
#19 suin_bahhar_02 Jan 02, 2009 10:13:56	Nice catch! Those look really appropriate. I remember reading Paul Kemp's novels and imagining them to be like those, but with smooth face guards for standard elite troops, and commanders having those face-embossed ones. Here's another example of a delicate and ornate black plate.
#20 shodanicron Jan 02, 2009 10:16:13	aye nice stuff there. yes considering they have come back from their stint in the shadow plane they are bound to have gone a bit more sinister or and also developed along more advanced armor types. cool. liking yur man at the last picture theres helmet of doom!! man id love if wizards could commission up some pictures of various clothing and armor types. getting ed greenwood to give his official word on the descriptions. then i could rest easy
#21 Stigger Jan 02, 2009 12:23:43	Well, you could always ask him about it over on Candlekeep. As to the Necromonger thing... very interesting idea there MT, I approve. Pity I don't use Netherese, but if I did, that's what they'd look like.
#22 shodanicron Jan 02, 2009 12:29:59	does he answer these kind of things? cool if he does. ill give it a whirl and see what pops out. thanks stigger
#23 Stigger Jan 02, 2009 12:34:53	He'll answer all sorts of questions actually, some you never really wanted to know the answer to... though I'm not sure how much he actually had to do with Netheril and its creation, so keep that in mind.
#24 shodanicron Jan 02, 2009 12:37:32	will do, if i get anything back ill post it up.
#25 Nolwelen Jan 02, 2009 15:01:55	I knew this old artwork, but to me Netheril never felt like this. I know they had been "barbarians" before they rose to power, but its just my conviction that if some aspect of a culture developes on an extremly fast pace the rest of the culture will be dragged along the path. Thus everything from clothing to architecture, from food to music experiences a CULTURE REVOLUTION. Its a powerful metamorphosis that reflects the massive shift in the way they perceived the world as a society. Within a couple of years the world just became a completelly different place and therefore the way they saw themselfs had to change appropriatelly. They recreated themselfs completelly to fit into the new picture. Suddenly everything was possible and the sole limit they knew was their own imagination. Perhaps the Imaskari knew more about all sciences, but the Netherese embraced it much more passionate since it felt like a gift of fate to them. Now their former issues seemed ridiculously simple and they saw no reason to be "cautious" about their advancements. Before they always were in danger to simply fade away or be erased from history by other civilisations. After this the worst that could happen to them was to make no further advancements. Of course they did dangerous things with their newly found knowledge and did suffer casualties. But before danger was a permanent condition they lived in and they were constantly suffering casualties no matter what they did or how hard they tried to avoid risks. All the successes and failures of the Netherese were the product of a new beginning without doubt and fear. They became a high culture within an eye blink and without effort. And thus the magical empire, these 7 fishermen's villages became, wasn't anymore anything close to its former self, it changed completelly. Thats why I deem it absolutelly reasonable that their culture didnt show anymore very much of their origins.
#26 shodanicron Jan 02, 2009 15:41:01	aye well said, i understand your point definitely, who is to say that the barbarian looking chap on the cover is from a high netheril city. i had originally gone on the same lines you suggest with their culture blooming in all respects, i think aesthetic style however might not change so much, take celtic or irish traditional designs, while techniques might change the core sense of style does not venture too far afield, ie motifs: spirals, animall heads etc. i think i am coming around to a more definate level of advancement or armor types going with your theory, but still from a stylistic point of view, was it a square, bulky or flowing, pointed, banded, ringed spirared, heavily emobossed of a certain recurring motif colors etc.
#27 Nolwelen Jan 02, 2009 15:58:55	aye well said, i understand your point definitely, who is to say that the barbarian looking chap on the cover is from a high netheril city. i had originally gone on the same lines you suggest with their culture blooming in all respects, i think aesthetic style however might not change so much, take celtic or irish traditional designs, while techniques might change the core sense of style does not venture too far afield, ie motifs: spirals, animall heads etc. i think i am coming around to a more definate level of advancement or armor types going with your theory, but still from a stylistic point of view, was it a square, bulky or flowing, pointed, banded, ringed spirared, heavily emobossed of a certain recurring motif colors etc. Hey man, thats a good picture there as well. May be they are not reminiscent of "Vikings" as the barbarian picture from the north goes, perhaps they have a celtic outlook. Interessting idea. The only contradiction would be the fact that the celts were "hourse men".
#28 shodanicron Jan 02, 2009 16:11:57	Your right i have a homebrew setting i want to put together based on celtic mythology but not in such a plain homage way. ill always reserve the moonshae's for my Irish envisions of the realms, the similarities are pretty standoutish,. ie the Ffolk i was just looking over the free pdf of Netheril: Empire of Magic again and pg 30-31 equipment (referenced way back by stigger) i think is pretty definitive. it has the introducing dates. again we are left stylistically miffed again, the artwork seem not relevant at all. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr1147.zip Kospesh as the standard sword type i never noticed before but says alot.
#29 Nolwelen Jan 02, 2009 16:26:15	Your right i have a homebrew setting i want to put together based on celtic mythology but not in such a plain homage way. ill always reserve the moonshae's for my Irish envisions of the realms, the similarities are pretty standoutish,. ie the Ffolk i was just looking over the free pdf of Netheril: Empire of Magic again and pg 30-31 equipment (referenced way back by stigger) i think is pretty definitive. it has the introducing dates. again we are left stylistically miffed again, the artwork seem not relevant at all. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr1147.zip Kospesh as the standard sword type i never noticed before but says alot. My advise still would be:" Go greek." You cant make anthing wrong with the greek style and it doesnt deny the Chondathans having a greek outlook as well.
#30 shodanicron Jan 02, 2009 16:34:13	i dunno this kopesh is pretty awesome and that lends to mind the egyptians, or the mulan if it were. weird
#31 Nolwelen Jan 02, 2009 19:12:59	i dunno this kopesh is pretty awesome and that lends to mind the egyptians, or the mulan if it were. weird Honestly, I wouldn't go into this direction. The egytian style has already been claimed by all the mulan nations. Mulhorandi, Unther and Thay. And it represents a pretty monolithic culture that wasnt really wide spread and didnt know much variation despite its longevity. Having two Egypts who arent related by any means would feel "odd" at best. I dont see the egyptian weapon as an objection for a greek fashioned setting anyway. It doesnt collide with the style. Perhaps you could incorporate some egyptian elements in a "discrete" way. And since we are already at it mixing the greek style up with a little viking stuff could make a cool combination. You know, put some "runes" on the spartan helmet and give it a slightly viking vein in design.
#32 BadCatMan Jan 03, 2009 0:58:39	The reference to the khopesh may just mean that is was introduced to Netheril by Mulhorandi adventurers. Some Netherese might have played it with, but it never really took off in a big way. Lots of weapons come and go throughout history, according to popularity and usefulness. The scimitar as "primarily a drow weapon" would be in the same boat. Netheril's style doesn't seem to be reminiscent of anything in particular, just generic barbarian advanced quite a bit. If you still want some Greek or other classical weapons, but ones a little different from the norm, then check out these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiphos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopis (the swords seen in 300) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makhaira http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcata It depends if you're interested in old Netheril or new Netheril (bah). The latter should be quite a bit different. The City Of Shade was isolated for a long time. They could have preserved a few specific warrior traditions, or developed along new lines but with no outside influences. Expect shadowcrap. :p From Races Of Faerun: "To most Faerûnians, the weapons and equipment of most Shadovars look oddly dated. After all, until recently they were cut off from the rest of the world for over two thousand years. Shades often wear ornate breastplates and carry similarly designed ranseurs. They also like aerial cavalry and have domesticated dire bats as mounts." Then again... Here's Leevoth, Shade Captain, with his greatsword Ironfang: And a Shade Assassin:
#33 lord_karsus Jan 03, 2009 23:41:10	-Definitely have a 'Dark and Brooding' motif going on there. Steaming, too, apparently. Or, maybe smelly? Are those 'smelly' lines by the assassin's boots?
#34 markustay63 Jan 03, 2009 23:44:48	More like Cale, or Artemis' Sword.
#35 Zireael Jan 04, 2009 3:21:17	Artemis's Sword (Charon's Claw) was Netherese, so it's a good example. And wasn't Charon a Greek myth character?
#36 BadCatMan Jan 04, 2009 4:50:01	That's right, Charon was the ferryman across the River Styx that led to the Underworld. In D&D, there's a Yugoloth very much like Charon, the Marraenoloth, who are pretty much race of Charons who ply the Styx. Maybe Charon is a Marraenoloth? Of course, Artemis himself is named after a Greek goddess. RAS also threw in a Poseidon reference in his Bloodstone Lands sourcebook (he can't be blamed for Dionysus.) I'd say he had a thing for Greek myth, except Guenhwyvar is named for Guinevere of Arthurian legend.
#37 quale1 Jan 04, 2009 10:12:37	he is known as Cerlic, probably an altraloth, he made a pact (safer travel upon the Styx) with the night hags and became a master of marraenoloths in Pathfinder he's one of the four archdaemons, the Horseman of Death
#38 lord_karsus Jan 04, 2009 11:42:44	in Pathfinder he's one of the four archdaemons, the Horseman of Death -Oh, that sounds interesting.
#39 Nolwelen Jan 04, 2009 13:07:06	Netheril's style doesn't seem to be reminiscent of anything in particular, just generic barbarian advanced quite a bit. Ok, first the term "barbarian" in and of itself does not refer to a particular culture or civilization. Those who spoke greek used the term to refer to just anybody who wasnt speaking greek. To the greek even the romans were "barbarians". Thus it represents the better part of the world. And then I have to ask what would be "advanced barbarian style"? If you speak of viking or celtic customs and style, they never experienced a development that elevaded them to the status of an "advanced culture" like Rome, the greek city states, Persia, Egypt, Nubia or any other that comes to your mind. Thus we dont know how it would have taken shape. Perhaps it would have taken appearance similar to greek style. After the collapse of the western roman empire german tribes moved everywhere and in most cases adopted the roman culture. The only "german" style that survived was "Gothic". With the celtic style its worse, after Rome faded away and the imigration of the germans, celtic culture was almost gone in central europe. Today the only celtic remnants that survive are the Irish, the Welsh, the Bretons and the Basques. After the end of the mediaeval age the "Renaissance" (Rebirth) began and its style was reminiscent of greek and roman culture and this epoch encompassed western, southern and northern europe completelly. Therefore there has never been an "advanced barbarian style". Well perhaps you suggest to create something "new". Good luck with that. Even if you manage to avoid to get influenced by anything that has gone before, and that's a task of its own! You wont be able to create something that doesn't create associations with already existing things. No matter how hard you try. The only real choice is to set a direction and in this case that means to choose between basic "european", "african", "asian" or "pan-american" style. In any case you have to create a coherent theme in the process or the whole thing crumbles below its own weight! Just to break the illusion for you. There is nothing "new" in D&D. No matter what it is a name, a theme, a shape or an idea. Everything has drawn inspirations from somewhere.
#40 markustay63 Jan 04, 2009 15:32:45	The only "german" style that survived was "Gothic". Which fits perfectly with my musings about the Shadovar being akin to the Necromunger. I picture their architecture and fashion looking like something Brom and Geiger's love-child would have spat-out. I'm thinking a very dark Victorian-style, something like what was used in The Golden Compass movie, perhaps combined with the creepy-alien stuff from Dark City. Lots of flying-buttresses and gargoyles and all the other genre-cool things 'dark Goth' is known for. BTW - I don't know about the rest of you, but picturing the Spartans from 300 hundred carrying that Kopesh pictured above for Netheril doesn't bother me in the least. :D
#41 Nolwelen Jan 04, 2009 17:00:06	Which fits perfectly with my musings about the Shadovar being akin to the Necromunger. I picture their architecture and fashion looking like something Brom and Geiger's love-child would have spat-out. I'm thinking a very dark Victorian-style, something like what was used in The Golden Compass movie, perhaps combined with the creepy-alien stuff from Dark City. Lots of flying-buttresses and gargoyles and all the other genre-cool things 'dark Goth' is known for. BTW - I don't know about the rest of you, but picturing the Spartans from 300 hundred carrying that Kopesh pictured above for Netheril doesn't bother me in the least. :D A gothic themed Netheril? Sounds nice to me. But I think you still need something to mix it up, since the "gothic style" never developed beyond its "mediaeval phase" and Netheril belongs to the "advanced cultures" of Faerun. Well its possible to advance gothic on your own. Could be fun to emulate its development and experiment a little. Its just an amazingly good architectural style for monumental buildings and if Netheril is anything its MONUMENTAL. The more I think about it the more I fall in love with the idea of making Netheril "gothic". I can almost see the Towers of the Arcanists and the temples of the gods which would actually be epical sized Cathedrals with gargantuan domes. Really great idea!
#42 BadCatMan Jan 04, 2009 19:32:57	Ok, first the term "barbarian" in and of itself does not refer to a particular culture or civilization... I know. That's why I said "generic barbarian" - Conan The Barbarian and the like, with horned helmets and fur and big swords. I was talking about a common fictional style. And I mean 'advanced' in that they're "generic barbarians" who've very quickly gained a high-powered magical empire, without really changing their culture a whole lot. And I said none of the rest of what you seemed to have read in my post.
#43 markustay63 Jan 04, 2009 20:05:38	Yup - 'Advanced Barbarian' means the horns on the helmets rotate forward and actually shoot frickin' lasers.
#44 lord_karsus Jan 04, 2009 21:33:24	-Well, these are the Netherese we are talking about, here. Lasers are very doable.
#45 quale1 Jan 05, 2009 3:35:17	Halruaa so I don't really imagine Netheril as gothic domes and gothic don't go together, except in one place, Ely cathedral gothic didn't end with the medieval ages, there was so called Gothic Revival e.g. Viollet-le-Duc and early Gaudi but that style would fit better in Erlkazar I picture Netherese much less detailed, simplistic and utilitarian. lots of right angles, in one color, monolithic, built of huge blocks using levitation magic and walls off force for swords and armor looking ancient, early Iron Age seems the most appropriate, Halstatt D, just style, the quality should be much more advanced falcata is a good choice for helmets, maybe Phrygian to imitate wizards
#46 lord_karsus Jan 05, 2009 10:25:00	-A helmet in the shape of the stereotypical Wizard hat. Priceless. :D
#47 iakhovas Jan 05, 2009 14:42:25	Shodanicron, you may be interested in the description of Shadovar armor in the novel Shadowrealm on page 162. It appears that dark mail with spikes is at the height of fashion in Netheril Reborn.
#48 markustay63 Jan 05, 2009 17:51:04	Love the helmet :D , But the rest I can't get behind. Wizards are, by nature, ostentatious. They don't want to milk cows or make shoes - they study magic so they can make things go BOOM! The have a very high opinion of themselves, and in most cases, want the world around them to reflect their own glory (especially since we are talking about the Flying-City Netherese here). I think that pic of Halrua would be considered 'boring' by Netherease standards - I'm thinking all sorts of non-Euclidean wierrdness a'la M.C.Escher would be more up their alley. I can see them using all sorts of anti-gravity type ricks in their architecture, the sole purpose of which would be to 'out-cool' other wizards living in the same enclave (sort of like the way Drow decorate their Houses with 'Faerie Fire' and unique, monolithic style). I'm just not seeing the Netherease be 'Utilitarian' AT ALL. The Helmet, though, fits perfectly. Now I' thinking 300 Spartans with pointy helmets, wielding Kopesh's and and Viking-Spike-shields. :D Hey! We are moving completely away from derivitive here! Is this still FR? :P *BTW, while looking for a picture of a 'Viking Spike Shield', I came across a VERY cool site with weapons and armor.
#49 Nolwelen Jan 05, 2009 20:27:55	I know. That's why I said "generic barbarian" - Conan The Barbarian and the like, with horned helmets and fur and big swords. I was talking about a common fictional style. And I mean 'advanced' in that they're "generic barbarians" who've very quickly gained a high-powered magical empire, without really changing their culture a whole lot. And I said none of the rest of what you seemed to have read in my post. Im sorry really, I didn't mean to offend you. I just used your statement to launch an exposure. It wasn't really about the opinion you brought into the field. Sorry for irritating you.
#50 Nolwelen Jan 05, 2009 20:48:59	domes and gothic don't go together, except in one place, Ely cathedral Ok, I have to ask back then in which style epoch were domes utilized in a differnt way? But I guess its true, its the roman architecture that is fond of domes as it looks. Then Im back to greek/roman styles, since I desperately want Netheril to have domes. Can you imagine the dome of night? Must be a completelly insane structure. It was built of the realms' foremost megalomaniacs inspired by one of the realms' most obsessed deities. ^^ Its just when I think about Netheril the terms that come to my mind are: grandious, monumental, devoid of all reason, magelomaniac, reckless, obsessed with power.
#51 lord_karsus Jan 05, 2009 23:21:45	But the rest I can't get behind. Wizards are, by nature, ostentatious. They don't want to milk cows or make shoes - they study magic so they can make things go BOOM! -Or spells to milk the cows for them. I'm just not seeing the Netherease be 'Utilitarian' AT ALL. -I've always seen them as very utilitarian. Asides for studying spells and such, plenty of things were created via magic to make everyday life easier. Quasimagical items and the mythallars, for example.
#52 BadCatMan Jan 05, 2009 23:48:28	Im sorry really, I didn't mean to offend you. I just used your statement to launch an exposure. It wasn't really about the opinion you brought into the field. Sorry for irritating you. Nah, I was just confused as to where that whole rant had come from. :P
#53 quale1 Jan 06, 2009 10:39:51	But the rest I can't get behind. Wizards are, by nature, ostentatious. They don't want to milk cows or make shoes - they study magic so they can make things go BOOM! The have a very high opinion of themselves, and in most cases, want the world around them to reflect their own glory (especially since we are talking about the Flying-City Netherese here). I'm just not seeing the Netherease be 'Utilitarian' AT ALL. the utilitarian part, I only meant that concerning the lack of space in the flying cities yes, their cities looked imposing and powerful at the distance of another city, but I imagine that behind the scenes, particularly concerning the maintenance of the city, they were careful, only to be even greater show-offs in public Ok, I have to ask back then in which style epoch were domes utilized in a differnt way? But I guess its true, its the roman architecture that is fond of domes as it looks. Then Im back to greek/roman styles, since I desperately want Netheril to have domes. I just said that they aren't gothic, in fantasy use and combine what you like Markus' suggestion from the Golden Compass would be something similar to that, it looks inspired by Oxford (e.g. Radcliffe Camera), personally I would use just the shapes of it, the details would make it look too modern renaissance is all about the domes
#54 markustay63 Jan 06, 2009 11:22:35	Well - Gothic-Netherease can be different from RW Gothic (we ARE trying to move away from derivations, right?). I'd say dark and imposing... with domes. :D As for the 'Utilitarian' - I was reading that as 'austere' - sorry. Both of you are right, in that the Netherease were VERY good at "making things work", but in doing so, they did it with STYLE. Problems with rampaging barbarians? make your cities fly! Most cultures would have just built higher walls. :D Back to Gothic - I have a homebrew Netherease Archwizard named Seluj Enrev (his father was a Calimshite Sorceror), and the name of his enclave was 'Nautilus'. VERY much a ripoff of 20,000 leagues under the Sea, and the whole enclave looks like something from Gothic SciFi. It was saved you know... but the poor archwizard died. It sits off the coast of Kara-Tur in the Celestial Sea, and is still inhabited and fully functional (in case ayone wanted to use it). I have a whole 'Jules Verne meets Namor: the Submariner' theme going on there.
#55 shodanicron Jan 09, 2009 13:29:48	Thanks for all the replies and thoughts and things lads. Well ive though about it alot and for the purposes of my own campaign im going to use some of this basic guidance im planning to draw a series of picture of the various folk for my players to get an overall feel of the ancient netheril (rather than the returned as they do not feature promenantly in my campaigns as of yet) for the warrior class etc. im going with breast plate as pretty much the favoured type. The armour will be simple in appearance and very utilitarian as im using the drawrves as a jumping point for their source of arms and armour. they will resemble the "fictional conanesque type of barbarian" and in regards to motifs im going to use simple dragons (i just like them as a motif rather than plucking them from anywhere. the colors used i think will be a golden color bordered or accented in black, (kind of bee like) i like the contrast of those two colors it should be nice. In regards to the other folk, i will stress mantles for the wizard and females using long dresses similar to a not to grandiose Celtic irish style of the nobility. again using the same color schemes of black and gold. And ive fallen in love with the kopesh, its exotic and has somewhat of a non generic feel about it that im going to favour it. Cheers for all the suggestions. i love that wizard helmet from above but i think the horned helm is going to win me over.. Cheers lads
#56 lord_karsus Jan 09, 2009 15:15:21	-Scan and post the pictures, if you do.
#57 shodanicron Jan 09, 2009 17:07:41	Cheers karsus will do i if can.
#58 shodanicron Jan 09, 2009 17:39:20	Some find here lads. i found in the adventure on this website " Anauroch: The Sundering of the World." I dont have it personally but is this an undead warrior from netheril???? Its pretty awesome. I must have seen it before in my travels as it has the Bee color scheme i mentioned above. Subconscious at work no doubt. liking that ranseur im quite satisfied with that armor.
#59 shodanicron Jan 09, 2009 18:04:24	sorry for the repeated posts lads but i found quite a bit tonight. here is a quote from a book Netheril: Empire of Magic that some guys posted on gamebanshee "the High Prince cuts an imposing figure whether seated on his floating throne or presiding over ceremonies in the streets of the city. Whenever he appears in public, the High Prince prefers to wear the traditional dark armor of the Netherese Imperium, with its dragon-winged overmantle, stylized vambraces, and flowing, dark purple robes. " the whole piece is http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/d-and-d-campaign-settings-23/most-powerful-caster-within-the-realms-11853-p2.html interesting ....well to me in any case
#60 BadCatMan Jan 09, 2009 22:13:29	Some find here lads. i found in the adventure on this website " Anauroch: The Sundering of the World." I dont have it personally but is this an undead warrior from netheril???? Its pretty awesome. I must have seen it before in my travels as it has the Bee color scheme i mentioned above. Subconscious at work no doubt. liking that ranseur im quite satisfied with that armor. Hmm. That's a Krinth warrior, a half-breed between slaves from the City Of Shade and demons from the plane of shadow. Most live in the City Of Shade, so that is indeed an example of Netherese armour and weaponry (albeit via Shade). This gal is also a Krinth, probably of lower rank to the one above:
#61 markustay63 Jan 10, 2009 0:32:57	I answered you in the CK thread, but I'll repeat here for others - I think the Mark Zug illustrations on the front and back covers of Lords of Darkness are very good depictions of Netherease armor, and it's very much how we've been picturing it - Highly-stylized Black and Gold (yellow), with some prettyy scarey-looking helmets (reminiscent of my Necromunger comparison). Also, from the same tome (pg.83) - "The High Prince prefers to wear the traditional dark armor of the Netherease Imperium, with it's dragon-winged overmantle, stylized vambrances, and flowing, dark purple robes."
#62 shodanicron Jan 10, 2009 15:13:20	I answered you in the CK thread, but I'll repeat here for others - I think the Mark Zug illustrations on the front and back covers of Lords of Darkness are very good depictions of Netherease armor, and it's very much how we've been picturing it - Highly-stylized Black and Gold (yellow), with some prettyy scarey-looking helmets (reminiscent of my Necromunger comparison). Also, from the same tome (pg.83) - "The High Prince prefers to wear the traditional dark armor of the Netherease Imperium, with it's dragon-winged overmantle, stylized vambrances, and flowing, dark purple robes." Yes exactly. liking those. i think that the style must be dictated to the artists of the both the above quote and the the picture of the krinth. Wizards must have a QA or art direction department. artists will have asked for some kind of direction when making the pictures, hopefully. im a stickler for canon in terms of lore and also in terms of art work when it comes to the realms. so i bow down to the canon in this respect. besides are much more accomplished than most things i have envisioned in terms of a visual representation for my players. good stuff, thanks man.
#63 lord_karsus Jan 27, 2009 22:30:15	-I don't know if it's been mentioned, but, as per Shadowrealm, some Shadovar apparently wield crystalline blades.
#64 markustay63 Jan 27, 2009 22:56:15	Because Crystal was just too cool to leave to Elves and hysterically laughing Dwarves?
#65 shodanicron Jan 28, 2009 18:55:42	Karsus, i think it has been mentioned either here or at candlekeep, but i dont know how representative of the Ancient Netherese prior to the Fall a crystaline weapon is? probably something native to the shadowfell maybe? it would be so cool if wizards could get lockwood or someone to sketch some up. you know in a line up, of commoners up to lords. my own attempts pale in comparison
#66 lord_karsus Jan 28, 2009 19:00:25	Karsus, i think it has been mentioned either here or at candlekeep, but i dont know how representative of the Ancient Netherese prior to the Fall a crystaline weapon is? probably something native to the shadowfell maybe? -Understood. The Netherese were a crafty bunch, so...They did indeed know about the Outer and (presumably) Inner Planes, so if such crystal weapons were common in all of Netheril, they could have been mined from the Elemental Plane of Earth. Or, perhaps one of the Quasi- or Para-Elemental Planes.
#67 shodanicron Jan 28, 2009 19:16:03	yeah defo i suppose. I think the old covers of the source books have ingraned themselves in my subconcious, they are pretty awesome. Ive looked back over the thread and even the cool images of "Mark Zug illustrations on the front and back covers of Lords of Darkness" above are cool for returned netherese, but not pre the fall. it just does not settle right with me. I guess its all a bit up in the air. now all we need is lockwood on the case!! then ill be happy
#68 markustay63 Jan 29, 2009 16:19:26	Considering how each and every Enclave - and there were far more then just 'flying ones' - had its own 'little Prince' ruling it, with his or her own laws in place, and each Enclave had its own goals and persued different paths of knowledge, I think it would be impossible to nail any one thing down as 'Netherease-esque'. What I thought we were discussing here is the Shade Enclave, and I personally liken them a great deal to the Necromunger, but I'm sure there were enclaves that looked like something that fell out of a Care Bear cartoon as well, with all sorts of shiney rainbows and cutesy bunny rabbits.... As of their return, and most especially in 4e, Shade is synonymous with the Empire of Netheril... but that wasn't always the case. For all we know, the rest of Netheril could have considered Shade an 'awful place' full of sleazy Goth-types best-avoided.
#69 lord_karsus Jan 29, 2009 20:27:12	-I wish that we had more in-depth information for each enclave, other than the little tidbits presented in Netheril: Empire of Magic. And, unfortunately, this is the type of thing that no one particular author or designer has "dibs" on that is considered THE source- ie, George Krashos with Impiltur, Steve Schend with Cormanthyr, and so on.
#70 shodanicron Jan 30, 2009 21:00:42	Hi all, I posted the question to ed greenwood on CK and received a reply. basic link here http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?whichpage=10&TOPIC_ID=12023& superb
#71 lord_karsus Jan 30, 2009 21:21:54	-The "glass armor" he mentions sounds very much like the aforementioned crystal weaponry.