One thing to keep in mind, when considering the falling rate of the enclaves, is that whether a given enclave was stationary, or in motion, at the time of the fall can make a huge difference. This is basic Newtonian Physics, and gets into rudimentary orbital mechanics. While the exact constants and laws don't necessarily apply to FR, we can reasonably assume that most of the basic concepts apply (i.e., objects fall in a similar manner). Thus, anything that was in motion might have bought itself a few extra moments before crashing, whereas those that were not probably dropped like a rock.
I would also expect that the specific size of the enclaves themselves may have been a factor - a wide, comparatively flat mountain turned into an enclave might have provided a certain amount of lift, akin to a giant flying wing/disc, if it was in motion at the time of the fall - not enough to keep it airborne, but certainly enough to slow the descent. In contrast, a more needle-like peak, especially if not in motion, would have been more aerodynamically suited to a rapid descent, and would have achieved terminal velocity faster.
(Copied from the other thread.)
Cross posted from one of those threads:
One thing to keep in mind, when considering the falling rate of the enclaves, is that whether a given enclave was stationary, or in motion, at the time of the fall can make a huge difference. This is basic Newtonian Physics, and gets into rudimentary orbital mechanics. While the exact constants and laws don't necessarily apply to FR, we can reasonably assume that most of the basic concepts apply (i.e., objects fall in a similar manner). Thus, anything that was in motion might have bought itself a few extra moments before crashing, whereas those that were not probably dropped like a rock.
I would also expect that the specific size of the enclaves themselves may have been a factor - a wide, comparatively flat mountain turned into an enclave might have provided a certain amount of lift, akin to a giant flying wing/disc, if it was in motion at the time of the fall - not enough to keep it airborne, but certainly enough to slow the descent. In contrast, a more needle-like peak, especially if not in motion, would have been more aerodynamically suited to a rapid descent, and would have achieved terminal velocity faster.
If we go by the picture of the City of Shade, then the enclaves had peaked points, so its unlikely they had much air resistance.
Would that be a human in free-fall? I could imagine a ridiculously large object, a la a flying mountain, might pose greater wind resistance. ;)
Yeah, it was a human, seeing as we don't have mountaintop-freefall statistics. :P And yeah, I imagine it would have more wind resistance, but also a much greater mass to resist for the wind...I'm not sure what its terminal velocity would be in comparison to a human...
- Mythallars had a range of 1 mile. Being as that most enclaves only had 1 (Karsus' Enclave had 2), their diameter was limited to 1 mile or less.
-Unfortunately, this is the only relevant information in the product I could find on this matter.
Would that be a human in free-fall? I could imagine a ridiculously large object, a la a flying mountain, might pose greater wind resistance. ;)
Yea, but the mountain has a lot of weight to overcome that resistance, which gives it a higher terminal velocity.
If we go by the picture of the City of Shade, then the enclaves had peaked points, so its unlikely they had much air resistance.
True enough - but then, I'm postulating some variety between the enclaves, as not all mountains are created equal, and therefore not all mountaintops sheared off to make enclaves would be either (which may be flawed logic, but it's plausible at least). Certainly we know that some enclaves fell and hit the ground, while others were still in free-fall when Mystra 'came back online'.
Um. The 1 mile radius thing is a good start thought... and using the average density of the earth at 5,515.3 g/cm^3... then you would just need the angle and Faerun's gravity... of, and the density and composition of the atmosphere to get a terminal velocity...
How about just taking the rough answer, guys?
Also, it could have been the last act of Mystryl that she used a bit of her magic, as it was stripped from her to try to hold the cities up long enough to allow them to be caught before they hit the ground.
Also possible that the Jhaamdathan embassies in those cities used their own powers to try to hold the cities up for a moment longer.
-Both are possible, but there's nothing factual to support these hypothesizes.
Um. The 1 mile radius thing is a good start thought... and using the average density of the earth at 5,515.3 g/cm^3... then you would just need the angle and Faerun's gravity... of, and the density and composition of the atmosphere to get a terminal velocity...
How about just taking the rough answer, guys?
-If we wanted to actually do the math (and, I am not saying to actually do it), it'd probably be easier to use the Earth's physics to substitute for the missing information, but denote that the actual answer may be different, due to physics being different.
-If we wanted to actually do the math (and, I am not saying to actually do it), it'd probably be easier to use the Earth's physics to substitute for the missing information, but denote that the actual answer may be different, due to physics being different.
I may do it in the morning. Just for interest. At the moment, however, it is 4:37am and I wouldn't trust my 2-times-table let alone my calculus ;) .
- With the suicide death of Mystryl, all of Abeir-Toril was magic dead for 5 2e rounds, which translates into 5 minutes, with 1 2e round being 1 minute.
- Various enclaves had to have been at differing heights, otherwise the three enclaves that were saved when Mystra was reborn would have been destroyed along with all of the other enclaves of High Netheril. This would mean that these three were higher in altitude than the others.
The math is going to show that unless they were in low orbit, the enclaves would have hit the ground a few minutes after the weave failed, and long before 5 minutes were up. So some supernatural force has to be involved.
-And, since nothing anywhere implies supernatural forces involved, save Mystra coming in in the end, this is what makes it so befuddling, and unbelievable.
His body swelled with the sudden influx of godly power, and
his mind filled with unimaginable knowledge. Karsus instantly
realized the horrible mistake he had made: He stole the power
from the one god he shouldn’t have. Mystryl’s position called for
one of the aspects of her psyche to constantly rework the weave
of magic—the weave that Netheril and its glut of magic and the
phaerimm with their magic drain spells constantly threatened to
unravel. When Mystryl lost her ability to keep the weave of essential
magic (magic in its purest unschooled and unfielded form)
intact, the inundation of magic surged and fluctuated, and the
effects of all things magical doubled for a time—a short time.
emphasis mine. There, for the first moment all the magic doubled, so the enclaves didn't start their fall for several moments.
Orbedal (now Warlock's Crypt, home of Larloch) came down on the Sword Coast. Larloch's original enclave, Jiksidur fell on the northern borders of Narfell. A "Steal This Hook" entry on the website suggests that one came down near Unther.
I always assumed that they kept to the vicinity of Netheril-on-the-ground, dropped more-or-less straight down. But the wide spread of the above ruins implies that unless they move around a lot further, then they must have either shot like meteors across the sky, or been piloted to a crash-landing - especially as some seem to have survived rather well for a city on a mountaintop falling out of the sky.
...I swear, I'm not a Star Trek geek... that's just the closest visual I can think of. :P
emphasis mine. There, for the first moment all the magic doubled, so the enclaves didn't start their fall for several moments.
-Moments, being seconds, I don't think this would have much of an impact on the total sum.
As far as the 5 rounds goes... That was the amount of time that the adventurer's and the Lich they were fighting were unable to access magic, not a universal number, maybe just a localized anomaly.
-It's the only numbers we have as to the length of the period of time in-between the suicide death of Mystryl, and the rebirth of Mystra. Nothing says that specific period was an anomaly, so...
How far did these things fly, or over what kind of range?
-Specific numbers are not mentioned. By the map of Netheril in AGHotR, we can see the the majority of enclaves were within the territory Netheril claimed as it's own.
-It's the only numbers we have as to the length of the period of time in-between the suicide death of Mystryl, and the rebirth of Mystra. Nothing says that specific period was an anomaly, so...
I agree that nothing says it was an anomaly, but nothing says it was universal either. The truth is there is no way to determine what happened or why, we only can say that 5 enclaves (that we know of) survived the fall. Everything else is a matter of conjecture. One more case of, "it worked that way, because we needed it to work that way."
I agree that nothing says it was an anomaly, but nothing says it was universal either.
-Again, being the only number that says how long the effect lasted, we should assume that this was the uniform time of the transition, and not a hiccup.
One more case of, "it worked that way, because we needed it to work that way."
-Which is why it makes not too much sense when analyzed, as evidenced right here.
With the suicide death of Mystryl, all of Abeir-Toril was magic dead for 5 2e rounds, which translates into 5 minutes, with 1 2e round being 1 minute.
Not quite. Assuming the bit about rounds getting changed to six seconds in 2E is true (I don't remember that, although I do remember the *****ing about the one minute round. I should, as I was one of the people *****ing about it), then it brings up a question: Was that 5-round comment published before or after that change was made? If before, then it took 5 minutes. If after, then it took 30 seconds.
-Last definitive source I saw (posted by you) said that the 2e round was one minute. Others said that they were either mistaken, or house-ruled it to six seconds.
I'll go check my 2E books tomorrow, if someone hasn't provided a definitive answer by then.
-G-d damn it! Why is it so hard to get the simple answer straight!!
-Last definitive source I saw (posted by you) said that the 2e round was one minute. Others said that they were either mistaken, or house-ruled it to six seconds.
Well, I can definitively state that, in my PHB, a round is one minute, while a turn is 10 rounds (10 minutes). However, I can't definitively state that that wasn't changed in later printings. I don't remember anything of the sort, but just because I don't remember it doesn't mean it's not true, so now I'm pretty confused, myself.
Really wish I hadn't sold my newer, blackcovered AD&D PHB. If there were any changes, then they'd probably be in there.
To further confound the issue 2ed also used 'turns.' There were 10 rounds per turn. Turns were largely intended for local level control of time outside of combat. I think some of the older supplements referred to a turn as 1 minute. Others referred to them as 10 minutes. I recall some calling turns 30 minutes and that would make combat have 3 minute rounds.
Basically the lesson learned is you could never trust what the intention of the author was when attempting to list a span of time in AD&D terms.
Also, please note I am working off memory. If someone has all of these books handy please do correct me if I'm wrong.
Question: Anyone with the Realmspace supplement know if the range of Toril's atmosphere is given? This may help the issue if Toril has a much higher range of breathable atmosphere for the Enclaves to have been floating within.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Dungeons_&_Dragons
This may be useful, as it has some information on the changes/differences in segments, rounds, and turns for the various editions of D&D:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Dungeons_&_Dragons
Which again supports my statement that the change in times was Combat and Tactics. So 5 rounds at 10-15 seconds equates to 50 to 75 seconds of time.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Dungeons_&_Dragons
References to "segments" (individual units of time representing one phase of initiative, or 6 seconds of game-time [simulated time]) were removed from the game; instead, actions were given an "Initiative Modifier". "Melee rounds" were unchanged, representing one minute of game-time, with a "turn" representing ten rounds (ten minutes). An optional alternative where one "melee round" represents 12-15 seconds of "game-time" was presented in the "Player's Option: Combat and Tactics" book, first of the so-called 2.5 Edition
side note: I really need to get a life... That I have the ability to remember what book out of all the ones I have to find the info I need, shows that I spend too much time with the material.
Question: Anyone with the Realmspace supplement know if the range of Toril's atmosphere is given? This may help the issue if Toril has a much higher range of breathable atmosphere for the Enclaves to have been floating within.
-Good idea...Here's what Realmspace says:
PLANET NAME: Toril
PLANET TYPE: Spherical earth body
PLANET SIZE: E
ESCAPE TIME: 4 turns
SATELLITES: 1 moon, asteroid cluster
DAY LENGTH: 24 hours
YEAR LENGTH: 365 days
POPULATION
ANALYSIS: Human and humanoid
races most prevalent
-Meh, not too useful...
Bel
Well the Earth's breathable atmosphere is contained in the troposphere which averages 7 miles in depth, but only about a third of that is life sustaning. So 2.5 miles +/-?
-It's the best we have to work with. So, that's a maximum, in theory, of 2.5 miles in the air.
Under the Spelljammer rules of physics, though, the real world notion of atmosphere doesn't quite apply - objects retain a certain sphere of air around them as they rise up from a planet (as I recall). Thus, in the same manner that a spelljamming ship that flies off from Toril, and flies over to Selune (the Moon), retains its air, so too would a flying city (in theory).
-I like Spelljammer, but most of that is conceptual, and not too much mechanics. Doesn't the air and gravity bubble that a Spelljammer retains when in the void stem from the Helm?
-I like Spelljammer, but most of that is conceptual, and not too much mechanics. Doesn't the air and gravity bubble that a Spelljammer retains when in the void stem from the Helm?
I just checked, and no, the volume of air is based on mass of the vessel, not on the helm. Some asteroids and other masses don't carry their own air.
See Concordance of Arcane Space pg. 11. An odd bit of D&D physics that are different from our own.
I just checked, and no, the volume of air is based on mass of the vessel, not on the helm. Some asteroids and other masses don't carry their own air.
See Concordance of Arcane Space pg. 11. An odd bit of D&D physics that are different from our own.
-So, going by this, then, High Netherese Enclaves could have have had their own air/gravity generators/pockets/wells/whatever you want to call them. Which would allow them to levitate very high up.
-So, going by this, then, High Netherese Enclaves could have have had their own air/gravity generators/pockets/wells/whatever you want to call them. Which would allow them to levitate very high up.
Yes, and they may have done so, to stave off attacks from dragons and other nuisances. The air supply would last for months on an enclave given the rules in spelljammer. But since the fall was just a little over a minute (if you use Combat and Tactics rules) they didn't need to be as high as I first thought.
Just checked Combat and Tactics, Rich Baker was one of the designers.
-Damn that Rich Baker! He must be STOPPED!
-Which is "official"? Did the Combat and Tactics rules override the previous rules, or were they akin to Unearthed Arcana optional rules where, while present, the official rules take precedence in official sourcebooks?
-Damn that Rich Baker! He must be STOPPED!
They were optional, but given the direction the game went (3rd edition wasn't too much after that), they may have been using that rule around the offices, especially with Rich around. And it does make more sense than the one minute rule. Speculation only, but the times line up, they were working on arcane age at the same time as the optional rules. Just like we know much of the new lore was made with the 4e rules, not 3.5 rules.
If someone hadn't locked the ask the designer thread I would just ask Rich, but that won't be possible for a few weeks.
From Netheril - Empire of Magic:
emphasis mine. There, for the first moment all the magic doubled, so the enclaves didn't start their fall for several moments.
So it could be postulated that the "lift" they had was also doubled and been thrust upward much like an airplane being caught in an updraft. Going with this theory, each of the enclaves could very well have been double the elevation that they were before, thus giving some of them the time needed to work whatever magics they could to save themselves...as well as dooming others that were at a "safe" hight to survive the fall before being tossed upwards.
They were optional, but given the direction the game went (3rd edition wasn't too much after that), they may have been using that rule around the offices, especially with Rich around. And it does make more sense than the one minute rule. Speculation only, but the times line up, they were working on arcane age at the same time as the optional rules. Just like we know much of the new lore was made with the 4e rules, not 3.5 rules.
-Makes sense.
If someone hadn't locked the ask the designer thread I would just ask Rich, but that won't be possible for a few weeks.
-Can't read big, bolded, underlined text?
-Again, being the only number that says how long the effect lasted, we should assume that this was the uniform time of the transition, and not a hiccup.
-Which is why it makes not too much sense when analyzed, as evidenced right here.
Actually if you look at it as more of a "shock-wave" then a universal "power outage" then it makes perfect sense. Look at it this way...
Our favorite mad mage absorbs Mystral's power, and since the essence of a God is their power, that would mean that at the time that the spell was nearing full completion, Mystral and Karsus were, for all intents and purposes, occupying the same place at the same time. Mystral suicides to end the spell, causing a "magic explosion", negating ALL magic for a time which ripples out through the Realms/planes/ect. from its starting point, meaning that the further you were from the epicenter, the longer you would have before magic failed completely for you. Now, it's been stated that elves can "notice" fluctuations in the magical fields, and this would be a major one, quite possibly able to be felt by the high level mages that controlled the enclaves. Feeling this, they realized that something major was about to hit and started either raising the cities to try to "get above the storm" or lowering them to prepare for a crash landing. The cities that survived were either those that were able to get low enough that they didn't hit terminal velocity or high enough that they were in "freefall" until the "shock-wave" passed, Mystra acended, and magic started working once more, albeit erratically, letting them at least land without being completely destroyed.
Just an idea
-Can't read big, bolded, underlined text?
Nope, I have a real problem with big words. :P
Nope, I have a real problem with big words. :P
-Don't we all.