The Shades of Netheril started worshipping Shar when they became dependent upon the Shadow Weave. THe Shadow Weave is no more. The Shades may be Shades, but they don't necessarily depend upon Shar for that transformation or it's mantenance, as far as I can tell.
Shar preaches the destruction of all things. Her faith is an utterly Entropic one.
The Shades of Netheril are pursuing a project of *rebuilding* - their ultimate goal isn't the end of everything, but the rejuvination of their Empire.
This places them fundamentally at odds with their current faith.
Overall the Shades, like there Netherese forebearers, seem more pragmatic than fanatic about their faith. That is, they're in it for what it gets them, not for serving the goals of the diety. The exception, among the Princes, is Rivalen Tanthul. He holds over the others "protection from violent death" per the FRCG. But surely the Arcanists can find other ways to insure that.
So the question becomes: How long will it take for the Netherese to break with Shar's faith, given their goal is dominion and (re)creation rather than destruction, and what might the consequences be?
Honestly, I think the Princes of Shade are so deeply in Shar's pocket, its highly unlikely they ever will. Shar also realizes that Netheril being restored will destroy more than it builds.
A better question is what would it take for the Shade Princes to be overthrown.
I don't know.
Honestly, I think the Princes of Shade are so deeply in Shar's pocket, its highly unlikely they ever will. Shar also realizes that Netheril being restored will destroy more than it builds.
A better question is what would it take for the Shade Princes to be overthrown.
Not just the princes, but all the shades, since the princes decided who got turned into a shade or not, most would have had to prove loyalty to Shar before becoming a true shade.
A better question is what would it take for the Shade Princes to be overthrown.
Insert a Sarruhk. The Terraseer maybe. What better to overthrow an overpowered regime, than the single most game breaking race in D&D history.
"Yes, our gods want to destroy the world. However, it'll be a long long time from now....meaning, after I'm gone. So who cares?"
*shrugs*
It's a possible storyline...and can cause problems between powers of evil.
Insert a Sarruhk. The Terraseer maybe. What better to overthrow an overpowered regime, than the single most game breaking race in D&D history.
The teraseer is asleep and will be til 1613 DR approx. (60 Sarruhk liches each awake for 4 years, the terraseer was last awake until 1377 DR (approx)).
You'd think they'd go "meh" and convert to Bane when they got a better offer.
-The Shades serve Shar because Prince Rivalen ...
Eh, beat me to it. Yes, Rivalen is the key to things.
Important to point out though that while the Shade may be using Shar, Shar is equally using the Shade. It's a two way street.
Eh, beat me to it. Yes, Rivalen is the key to things.
Important to point out though that while the Shade may be using Shar, Shar is equally using the Shade. It's a two way street.
Rivalen is the key, but after 2000 years, the worship is so institutionalized that it would be almost impossible to remove, without killing off a large number of the shades, although a few of the princes would probably help to give a boost to their own posistion.
If Rivalen is killed and some other super shades, then the others may reconsider Shar worship for something better.
Mask, Cyric, and others. Malak proved there was a basis for conversion.
Rivalen is the key, but after 2000 years, the worship is so institutionalized that it would be almost impossible to remove, without killing off a large number of the shades, although a few of the princes would probably help to give a boost to their own posistion.
Wasn't saying any different.
Except that Mask is going to kill Shar and subsume control of the wretches.
Except that Mask is going to kill Shar and subsume control of the wretches.
If Shar hasn't already done him in... :P
If Shar hasn't already done him in... :P
Back, you booger burglar!! Back!!
Hold that foul tongue or I'll slap a skunks ass to it!!
Back, you booger burglar!! Back!!
Hold that foul tongue or I'll slap a skunks ass to it!!
Why does everyone threaten me with physical violence, I'm incorporeal, I scoff at your skunk.
On topic - I may steal some of this for a campaign idea, separating the Netherese from Shar sounds like a great paragon level to epic level adventure.
The way to make Netheril moderately interesting would be for priests of other faiths to start infiltrating their ranks and converting citizens. It'll never happen, though, as the designers love Shar too much.
Bejebuz iz bizzzy, babee!! Those Shades will be gone in no time!! :D
The way to make Netheril moderately interesting would be for priests of other faiths to start infiltrating their ranks and converting citizens. It'll never happen, though, as the designers love Shar too much.
But the designers used to have a thing for Mystra too, so like all things, Shar to shall pass, and the tales we tell now will set the tone in the new edition.
But the designers used to have a thing for Mystra too, so like all things, Shar to shall pass, and the tales we tell now will set the tone in the new edition.
Is that on Mystra's headstone? 'Cause I weeped.
But the designers used to have a thing for Mystra too, so like all things, Shar to shall pass, and the tales we tell now will set the tone in the new edition.
I don't know, I think that's debatable. With Mystra, it was fans who really took to her (far more than designers). People wanted, and requested regularly, to know more about Mystra. I'm not sure that I see fans doing the same thing with Shar, although the designers definitely feature her and have her "win" at all her goals (way more than Mystra ever really seemed to).
What seems more true is that some people got "tired" of Mystra late in 3.5, so changes were requested. But with Shar, people are already asking for her to be reduced or diminished. I don't think that's a good sign.
Both of you.
LK, thats what i thought was going to happen in the book Shadowrealm later this year. Especially since that short story that was in the Realms of War book which Mask led Prince Brennus(?) to the amulet. I thought it would have led to a confrontation between Rivalen and the Most High in which Mask would steal the worship of the Shades from Shar due to the Most High's weak worship of and newfound hatred of Shar for taking his wife away from him. Too bad that isnt going to happen
-Rivalen is confirmed as living, correct?
I had a look through the Netheril sourcebook and Faiths & Avatars and compared the two write-ups of Shar.
In the time of Netheril (the old Netheril), Shar had the following domains: dark, night, hatred, loss, forgetfulness, sleep, nightmares, illusions, lies, trickery, unrevealed secrets, hiding places, betrayal, treachery, seduction, thieves, thievery, murder, winter. A pretty sizeable collection.
By the modern age (after the ToT), she has dwindled to only having dark, night, loss, forgetfulness, and unrevealed secrets (ignoring the caverns, dungeons and Underdark she picked up from Ibrandul).
I don't know what she's down to in 4th Edition, or if she's gained any portfolios/spheres.
So during the Dawn Cataclysm, probably, Shar lost control of hatred (to Bane), sleep, nightmares (who to?), illusions, lies (to Leira), trickery and hiding (to Mask, maybe?), betrayal and treachery (don't know), seduction (don't know; Sharess?), thieves and thievery (to Mask), murder (to Bhaal), and winter (to Auril).
Essentially, Shar was a goddess of thieves, intrigue, deception, corruption, dirty politics, and illusion magic. All good things for the Shades, I bet. She's give up a few of her hobbies on Faerun since the time of old Netheril and narrowed her focus, but the Shades have been out of touch with the world for a long, long time and may not have noticed. (Shades are immortal aren't they? Old habits die hard.) And it probably suits Shar not to update them on this.
They've been back in the world for a few years or a century, depending on how you look at it. Perhaps they'll eventually work out Shar's new status and narrowed intentions, and look to other more suitable gods, maybe Bane or Mask or Cyric.
Both of you.
Do I need to get the whip again?
-Rivalen is confirmed as living, correct?
Yes
-The Shades serve Shar because Prince Rivalen converted his father, in his despair over the loss of his wife. Remember, originally, in Netheril: Empire of Magic, the primary religion on the Shade Enclave was Tyche (Specifically, the part that focuses on bad luck, that would become Beshaba during the Dawn Cataclysm). In the same way that Rivalen changed his father, if someone could theoretically sway Telamont away from Shar, it may be possible to divorce the two. Perhaps via resurrection of his wife, or via establishing how Rivalen was using his father for a fool, to advance the power of Shar.
Sure, the Harpers should start this process and begin the "Shadow-Schism".
Not that belief in differing faiths within a single empire cannot be done. Rome and Greece were polytheistic. It hey all worshipped multiple gods Netheril would be a bit weaker since they would be struggling with themselves here and there and not be as unified. This works for me.
They could be worse (Netheril), they could all be Asmodeus worshippers.:D
well, you never know. Since Kemp is writing another trilogy covering the aftermath of what happens in Shadowrealm and we know that at least one of Mask's chosen are still alive(FRCG pg69) the plot point could come to pass. I mean that whole story about Rivalen and his mother is just to big to just let it lie(at least from a storyteller's perspective). Plus i think Mask will come back in some form in the future.
-Being that Prince Brennus has the information, him sitting on it- especially with Rivalen being very active in Shade politics as Telamont's clear heir, with the passing of Hadrhune- for over 100 years just doesn't sit right with me. I mean, I can understand the intrigue factor- especially from a Diviner- and waiting until it's "the right time", and all of that, and the long age factor, but even Elves move with haste when things are of importance.
They could be worse (Netheril), they could all be Asmodeus worshippers.:D
Or they could abandon Shar and again pick up the idea that deities are just superior spellcasters and in the end, eventually, share the fate of Old Imaskar (i.e. without divine protection their empire is doomed) :P
Or they could abandon Shar and again pick up the idea that deities are just superior spellcasters and in the end, eventually, share the fate of Old Imaskar (i.e. without divine protection their empire is doomed) :P
The Netherese Archwizards, before the fall, didn't worship the gods much, for the most part they saw the gods as you say above, and that they were just a step or so below them. So nothing new in their society.
-Being that Prince Brennus has the information, him sitting on it- especially with Rivalen being very active in Shade politics as Telamont's clear heir, with the passing of Hadrhune- for over 100 years just doesn't sit right with me. I mean, I can understand the intrigue factor- especially from a Diviner- and waiting until it's "the right time", and all of that, and the long age factor, but even Elves move with haste when things are of importance.
He sits on it. Uses it. And will abuse it in the end.
That story was nothing more than a filler as far as I'm concerned. I would say it would hold some bearing in the novel to come, but all 12 princes remain in power.
He sits on it. Uses it. And will abuse it in the end.
-There's only so much he can do. Rivalen wasn't averse to killing his own mother. He wouldn't think twice in killing his own brother.
That story was nothing more than a filler as far as I'm concerned. I would say it would hold some bearing in the novel to come, but all 12 princes remain in power.
-I figured that Rivalen was going to get his just desserts in the last book, care of Brennus, or even Telamont himself, but with the FRCG, I know now that that isn't going to be the case. At least, not through a weird, contrived way to explain Rivalen being killed, and someone else keeping up his guise, and so on and so on. Not really necessary.
-There's only so much he can do. Rivalen wasn't averse to killing his own mother. He wouldn't think twice in killing his own brother.
I'm aware Mr. Sir Dude Guy Lord type person.
My point is that he is a Shade and will use it to further his own purpose. Not only does Rivelan become extremely useful for him, he has always been extremely useful to Rivelan. A bargain must be struck between the two.
-I figured that Rivalen was going to get his just desserts in the last book, care of Brennus, or even Telamont himself, but with the FRCG, I know now that that isn't going to be the case. At least, not through a weird, contrived way to explain Rivalen being killed, and someone else keeping up his guise, and so on and so on. Not really necessary.
As above.
Besides, Kemp has too much
to deal with than to facilitate a major break in the Shade family. I imagine it will be mentioned, but not implemented.Besides, Kemp has too much
-Not particularly. That can be integrated into the current story arc, or dangled as a segue way to a new series. In theory.
Soon a few other religions will start to creep in, some from their holding in Sembia, some by spies and priests secretly spreading their faiths. It may take a few hundred years, but at some point Sharrans will no longer be able to hold the country as their own.
-I don't even remember who that was...The last Slaad?
Yes, the "foppish" one. IIRC, he narrowly escaped, and we haven't heard about him again (at least, not yet).
Yes, the "foppish" one. IIRC, he narrowly escaped, and we haven't heard about him again (at least, not yet).
-Right, that one. Alright.
-Not particularly. That can be integrated into the current story arc, or dangled as a segue way to a new series. In theory.
Yes. But from the 4e description of things, Rivalen is solidly himself. I figure, if there was something amiss with things, there would be some mention of it. Especially with the way the FRCG is laid out this time around. Instead, it states his power and authority being unmatched or questioned.
Actually the seperation of Shar and Netheril may start to happen over time with no major changes to the leadership of the realm. As more of Netheril's citizens, and more importantly wizards start to live in and be born in more sunlit regions of the nation (not everyone will live on an enclave), the constant shadow and pall will no longer hang over the majority of the citizens.
Soon a few other religions will start to creep in, some from their holding in Sembia, some by spies and priests secretly spreading their faiths. It may take a few hundred years, but at some point Sharrans will no longer be able to hold the country as their own.
Obviously logical. But, as it has yet to even be hinted at, I see no "divorce" in the making.
Yes. But from the 4e description of things, Rivalen is solidly himself. I figure, if there was something amiss with things, there would be some mention of it. Especially with the way the FRCG is laid out this time around. Instead, it states his power and authority being unmatched or questioned.
-Hmm...Maybe Lord Shadow had him killed for his insolence, and had a simulacrum of Rivalen created, for...whatever reason. It could happen! Really!!
Rivalen is the key, but after 2000 years, the worship is so institutionalized that it would be almost impossible to remove, without killing off a large number of the shades, although a few of the princes would probably help to give a boost to their own posistion.
But then after 2000 years of worship in this european country.. and a philosopher came to the conclusion their god has been dead for a long time :P
Maybe they should become athars.. and seek to kill shar.
I mean, they did end up in the shadowplane and suffered a lot, time for payback..
Maybe they should become athars.. and seek to kill shar.
-The Athar/Believers of the Source and the Netherese had very much in common, as evidence by the thread that existed once upon a time that I can't find. Basically, Dan, me, and a few others compiled a whole lot of similarities.