From there, there is nowhere to go but inland.
In the interim, I think Neverember is playing an interesting game. He's got to keep Waterdeep happy, but he obvioulsy wants to rule.
I have read Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep, Book I By Steven E. Schend, which features Lord Neverember.
That said...
Say he gets the title and the throne. Then what? How does that gain him anything, except the enmity of these "Sons of Alagondar" (sp?) and old exiled Neverwintan families probably in Waterdeep?
From what I've read in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting, Neverember already has earned the ire of the Sons of Alagondar, as well as other, more deadly foes.
Not sure about Neverwintan exiles in Waterdeep.
But really, what matter are the Sons and the exiles? Their sum total ire can’t possibly equal the worst any few lesser noble houses in Waterdeep could muster and Neverember—to get where he’s gotten himself in Waterdeep—has clearly had to face worse and win out against it.
Gaining the throne would undermine his power base not only in Neverwinter, but also in Waterdeep, where presumably he runs most of his businesses.
How so?
I can see some questioning Neverember’s ability to “be in two places at once” of course, but if the coins flow freely in Waterdeep and Neverember’s ascension (or ability to control anyone who does ascend in Neverwinter) leads to gifts of power, influence and control of nascent markets in Neverwinter and the surrounding region.
I’d love to know what promises Neverember has made to various nobles and factions in Waterdeep, once he’s tamed Neverwinter.
His expenditures are massive. What does the throne get him that his "regency" doesn't?
That’s a good question. If we’re talking profits, the only think I see you overlooking is the market Neverwinter presents to Waterdeep, once it gets back on its feet. To do that, you have to rebuild and pay someone to do it. Enter Waterdeep, again.
It just doesn't make sense. How does he justify the huge amount of coin he must spend on a weekly, yearly basis?
I suppose it depends on what currency Lord Neverember values most: coin or power?
The desire to rule, to control, to lord over all, has in the Realms—and in real life—justified any manner of expenditure.
While it’s possible there could be a concrete, physical reward for Neverember’s efforts, we must also allow that a desire to rule is sufficient reason for any choice.
We must not assume these fictional Realms NPCs are prone to bouts of cold logic that preempt or interrupt their current enterprises.
Some NPCs are hard about counting coins before taking or continuing action. Some are not.
they lived there maybe since generations, the heck they gonna leave easily.
They are surely rough and rumble folks at times. Learned in common weapons like axes, bows...
Oddly, I think now of my ancestors, my 'Habitants' ancestors. Many could use a gun, and they served in 1812 and 1837... And it is maybe not a bad images, as Ed Greenwood is canadian too.
For the peasants, city folks, commoners, there is the issues of emotions;
they lived there maybe since generations, the heck they gonna leave easily.
They are surely rough and rumble folks at times. Learned in common weapons like axes, bows...
Oddly, I think now of my ancestors, my 'Habitants' ancestors. Many could use a gun, and they served in 1812 and 1837... And it is maybe not a bad images, as Ed Greenwood is canadian too.
Good grief... your ancestors may have been "rough and tumble" folk, but they didn't have to contend with actual demons, undead, orcs, shadowvar, dark elves, and the threat of what's under Mt. Hotenow.
It's one thing to hold on to your land because food is difficult to come by and it's hard work day after day. It's quite another to live in a lawless region AND deal with the threat of real demons, undead, orcs, etc... not to mention murderous and thieving former neighbors.
Eh.. somes of them are not that 'bad', compared to history... Those are not the 'Kingdom Orcs' by example, disorganised and not very brainy... Dark elves are not mighty, they can be killed and they do not have the local advantage.. demons and undeads, yes, but... the later can be dealed with easier (to a point), if this is things like skeletons.
Humans can be obtuse... And history shown us peoples lived through NASTY times. There was inhabitants in what used to be Khorasam after Ghengis Khan had his bloody revenge by example, and Baghdad's large region...
And at least at short term, well.. if liltte Newt survived the Xenomorphes for days in Aliens...
Time and again I've seen conversations like this that ask why something is the way it is in the Realms, because things "don't add up" or otherwise make sense (or seem contradictory) from the pool of available information, where people learn later that the game designer(s) left things open on purpose, so DMs could work with the information presented without running afoul of "canon Realmslore" (lord above I hate that phrase).
Given the deliberate ambiguity designed into the Neverwinter Campaign Setting, the potential for this seeems more so.
Having said that, I'd still like to here what Erik Scott de Bie (plus the other Neverwinter game designers) has to say have to say on the topic of Lord Neverember's motivations and the lands surrounding Neverwinter.
Also, Monsieur Jorunhast....
You pointed (meta)human ingenuity.
Which may be tied to another thing you, great and experiemented rper, DM or player, may know well;
Evil may not always work with Evil. WWII shown us that, with certain two dictators...
Maybe it's an important reason there is countrysiders still; evil beat on evil, and commoner leaders use this at their advantage... Orcs VS fiends VS undeads, etc...
Which may be tied to another thing you, great and experiemented rper, DM or player, may know well;
Evil may not always work with Evil. WWII shown us that, with certain two dictators...
Oh, uh huh... sure. During WWII commoners were never caught in the crossfire. They had nothing to worry about, in fact. Especially the French, they were all totally fine.
Why, it was probably just like on that comedy 'Allo 'Allo, where the Germans, the British and the Resistance all would eat together in French cafes and tell amusing anecdotes about sausages.Maybe it's an important reason there is countrysiders still; evil beat on evil, and commoner leaders use this at their advantage... Orcs VS fiends VS undeads, etc...
Just plant your tomatoes and melons, and those orcs and demons and undead won't bother you at all while you wait for harvest season, is that it? Break out the fancy cheeses and crackers, while we watch an undead battle a demon on our front lawn!
For the Orcish Kingdom, doing the tribute thing could work; Obouldians could look elsewhere... in parts. Maybe if they could send/divert them to Luskan...
There is also sure classed peoples in said parts. Like Dark Sun of old shown. A Cleric there, a Fighter here. Hedge 'witch' mage.
But I am an idiot, hum? You know way more than me it seems, eh monsignore.
For the Orcish Kingdom, doing the tribute thing could work; Obouldians could look elsewhere... in parts. Maybe if they could send/divert them to Luskan...
There is also sure classed peoples in said parts. Like Dark Sun of old shown. A Cleric there, a Fighter here. Hedge 'witch' mage.
But I am an idiot, hum? You know way more than me it seems, eh monsignore.
Sheesh. Okay, fine, let's play out this little scenario.
Day 1: the orcs come by, you give them all your vegetables in tribute.
Day 2: demons battle undead on your front lawn; the demons win, and decide they want your liver.
Day 3: now totally starving, and possibly absent your liver, you go beg someone with a class level to help you. Unfortunately, they're working for one of the factions and they decide you're possibly a spy for a different faction.
Reasons to leave the area: many.
Reasons to stay: ?
The majority of commoners who farm and fish, and do everything that would support a regular city, rarely (if ever) have class levels. They are usually out farming and fishing, doing their work, fairly far away from the town proper. It's not like they can afford guards, or to hire a hedge witch, or whatever, every single time they go out to do their work.
Is it the case that Lord Neverember hires guards to stand over the vegetable patches at regional farms? Unlikely. Guards can protect a town, more or less, within the city walls. Craftsmen might be protected, but even then... have you read the descriptions in the guide about how all of these factions have infiltrated everything?
And if those regional farmers are no longer there because they have left, how does the town eat? Import everything necessary on boats or caravans? More expense for the Lord.
One final thing: if you're going to come and try out a shoe, then find out that it fits, then don't whine about the result loudly for all to hear.
Possible objection:
The orcs, knowing there is WORSE than the commoners, go easy... they are not totaly idiotic, and know fighting them impoverished commoners are going to take a price.
Second of them humans go wild, like in woods. Harder life, but harder to get at. OR go the ways like some real life peoples.. taking mountains. Like in Capaddocia, Ethiopia, etc... caverns as houses, temples, etc... or carved into mountains. And the region have a mountainous side, as far I remmeember from NWN.
Rmember; when the OP have a parti pris and an avowed dislike of a subject like 4th ed. and FR 4TH and its fluff, it's better accept he may not be so open minded and fair on it.
Whatever. "Handwaving is ok" is what you're saying. I don't think it's wrong or mean, or inappropriate or whatever, to ask a question when something clearly doesn't make sense or "doesn't add up".
Well, nobody here said it was wrong, etc...to ask the question, either.
I was simply pointing out that if there's uncertainty deliberately built into the framework of some portion of Realmslore, then it's best to remember that going foward.
Why? Because uncertainty allows DMs to fill in the gaps. That uncertainty means multiple right answers are possible for any given question.
Note: we may not the rest of us agree that something "clearly doesn't make sense".
If you're going to ask a question, at least show a willingness to hear other points of view.
When you respond, your willingness to listen seems to last only for the finite amount of time it takes for you to shoot other's views down.
Furthermore, it's just fine to want an answer that makes logical sense, if you like verisimilitude in your gaming experience. FWIW, I didn't say one single word in this thread about "running afoul of canon realmslore", so it's completely disingenuous to inject that into this discussion. Read your own blog.
Easy tiger. No need to be so defensive. And thank you for reading my blog.
As to your last, you say it's disengenuous for me to talk about canon Realmslore, yet all through the thread you've wielded the lore like a hammer, bashing anyone who offers an opinion that seems contradictory to the sourcebooks.
Thinking about the Realms requires more than the sourcebooks; it requires imagination. The Neverwinter Campaign Guide was written with ambiguity in mind. Most of us who are left on these forums, I dare say, are geared to thinking about Realmslore in terms of how we can expand and build on it for our campaigns as opposed to looking at things from a rigid, "there's only one logical answer or explanation for my question" point of view.
Are we allowed to use our imaginations in your thread? Also, are people who haven't read the novels or the sourcebook allowed to respond in it?
No snark meant by that. I'm asking an honest question, because so far the answer to both would seem to be "no".
[EDIT]Wanted to mention that this is a fascinating thread. You ask a great question.
Thanks!
There was nobles who claimed lands clearly out of their hands anymore. Like how, apparently for some century more, the King of Britain had claims on *France*. After the end of that certain war.
And this is how remains some 'undead' ghostly parish in Catholic Church by example; like in Maghreb.
(I do not troll.)
Basically: What's Neverember doing in Neverwinter? How is it worth his time, coin, and effort?
(Is that about right?)
Short answer: Neverember is building a merchant EMPIRE on the Sword Coast. First Waterdeep, then Neverwinter, then . . .? Sky's the limit.
Long answer: Neverember is a merchant. And like the vast majority of merchants in the Realms (and in real life), COIN is his bottom line, followed only slightly above by POWER.
COIN: Neverember is what we'd call a capitalist. His mercantile interests in Waterdeep have been very rewarding to him, but he's still limited by what I call the "gold ceiling." He sees diminishing returns and more enemies if he tries to scale up his business interests. Business works on a bell curve: you have to find the sweet spot where you're making the maximum you can whilst pissing off the least competitors you can.
What Neverwinter offers is another environment/forum for him to exercise his business savvy. And here, he has fewer trade laws and regulators to deal with. There's much more room for black market, taxation on trade, and huge dividends for Neverember. Not to draw too much of a real world example, but it's like rebuilding a small country--not by doing it yourself, but by bringing in people to do it, and taxing their efforts. They make money, you make money, it's all good.
What then happens if Neverember takes the throne of Neverwinter? Mercantile Empire, is what happens. He expands his business all over the Sword Coast, now basically controlling two major ports of trade. Waterdeep was somewhat limiting to him, but Neverwinter represents a chance to build from the ground up.
Isn't that situation worth some investment capital? And he does things on the cheap, hiring Mintarn Mercenaries rather than bringing in Waterdeep Guard, employing low-bid contracts to reconstruct the city, etc. He ignores brewing threats like the aboleths, the Ashmadai, and the Red Wizards, because they would take money to resolve and he doesn't see the need to spend yet. I mean, even the Encounters season has him hiring a third party (the PCs) rather than invest all his coin in a manhunt for the Lost Heir. And adventurers are NOTHING is not cheap and often surprisingly effective.
POWER: Neverember is the Open Lord of Waterdeep, which is all well and good, but he still has to answer to a council of Masked Lords. Not so in Neverwinter: if he takes the crown, the city is his, and he doesn't have to share power with anyone. Also, it provides an excellent staging ground n(with little third party oversight) for taking over other cities in the region. Luskan is easily taken over (if Neverember ever takes interest in it). What's next? Longsaddle? Or would he move south and go after Baldur's Gate?
(Sounds like a great plot for Baldur's Gate 3 if you ask me!)
Fast-forward Neverember's plans a few years, and you have the Ember Kingdom on the Sword Coast, ruled by a tyrant with serious business savvy, which conflicts with Luruar and Many-Arrows.
@Neverember's name: Yeah, I thought it sounded kinda silly at the beginning too, but c'est la vie. It was one of those situations where we had already established the Open Lord of Waterdeep in Steve's novel, Blackstaff Tower, then wanted to use him in Neverwinter. It's actually kind of a happy accident, because it's such a great part of a propaganda campaign: Neverember for Neverwinter! I seized the opportunity to connect his name to the city (anyone catch the easter egg there?).
Thoughts?
Cheers
@Neverember's name: Yeah, I thought it sounded kinda silly at the beginning too, but c'est la vie. It was one of those situations where we had already established the Open Lord of Waterdeep in Steve's novel, Blackstaff Tower, then wanted to use him in Neverwinter.
Aha! After I wrote my post on that topic, it occured to me a few days later that Neverember might have come about before work on the NWCS got under way.
If things ever progress novel and sourcebook-wise where Neverember achieves some form of mercantile empire, I hope Bane gets his hands on Neverember and really drives him to turn tyrant.
Who knows....maybe Bane and his followers provide the means for Neverember to finally subdue/drive out the aboleths, the Ashmadai, and the Red Wizards? Sounds like a campaign idea for a party that worships evil deities if you ask me.
Anyway, I'd like to see Bane move out of the Moonsea and the Lake of Steam (not sure what he's up to in the Moonshaes, if at all) and really get going in the North, with Waterdeep a seat of his power.
I'd like to read about grim and disciplined, black-clad armies of Bane withstanding the onslaught of massed armies of Many Arrows, where Many Arrows are the good guys.
(apologies for the thread drift...)
hahahahah
@Neverember's name: ... I seized the opportunity to connect his name to the city (anyone catch the easter egg there?).
You managed to turn the naming coincidence into an intentional thing. My players are about to head to the House of Knowledge to research that and their own geneology, and I'm trying to figure out the best way to reveal it all. I'm thinking there were a lot of "Never" bastards sprinkled through the royal line. At least enough for a player or two ;)
Still loving the setting, very happy with our Neverwinter campaign so far. Level 3 and the intrigue is already knee-deep. Hardest part as DM has been keeping all the lies I have been weaving and npc relationships straight.
You managed to turn the naming coincidence into an intentional thing. My players are about to head to the House of Knowledge to research that and their own geneology, and I'm trying to figure out the best way to reveal it all. I'm thinking there were a lot of "Never" bastards sprinkled through the royal line. At least enough for a player or two ;)
That sounds like a great plan.
Still loving the setting, very happy with our Neverwinter campaign so far. Level 3 and the intrigue is already knee-deep. Hardest part as DM has been keeping all the lies I have been weaving and npc relationships straight.
Coincidentally, I am currently working on an easy, codified system for keeping track of at least part of that.
Cheers