Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Jorunhast Oct 07, 2011 23:38:25	Neverwinter Co-op being changed into an MMO IGN article here. Delayed also until 2012, it's going the way of those freebie MMOs that require micro-payments for anything beyond the base game. Makes me wonder how all the pre-announced "tie-ins" will change, and if it will really even resemble the game that's been advertised so far.
#2 sfdragon Oct 07, 2011 23:56:10	said elsewhere, that game is of no interest to me anylonger.
#3 The_Silversword Oct 09, 2011 19:56:01	well they was going to charge you a subscription to play, its now going to be free to play, FREE TO PLAY!!!! sounds like good news to me. I had a feeling it would be delayed, thats why they put out that Daggerdale game, it was a test, it didnt go over so well, so theyre changing it up some.
#4 sfdragon Oct 09, 2011 20:34:38	no they're just charging for the add ones , extra classes and stuff
#5 Caolin Oct 11, 2011 17:42:55	"" In fact, it's shifting towards the action end of the MMO spectrum. Transferring a Dungeons & Dragons universe into an action setting might sound strange to D&D veterans, but it's been done before with some of the Baldur's Gate games."" Sigh, it's a shame how WoTC if just murdering this franchise.  I know that Cryptic is making the game.  But I can't imagine them making these changes without WoTC's consent.  And BTW, those Baldur's Gate Action/RPGs were crap.
#6 Stigger Oct 11, 2011 18:13:53	Pretty much zero-interest in it myself.  Arkham City is going to have my full attention for quite a while anyway I'm guessing. Well, that and I'm pretty much done with MMOs period.
#7 sfdragon Oct 11, 2011 18:41:41	no interest here in it either. action rpgs are not all that fun. besides the only things that neverwinter has going for it are: free to play, and the neverwinter/dnd franchise. even with those, how will if fair against the king of mmorpgs: WOW. I'm not a betting man, but I doubt it will last long.
#8 Jorunhast Oct 12, 2011 4:54:15	Highly doubtful that it will be much like WoW, so I can't see it as a competitor in any way.  An MMO yes, but not a tactical, turn-based or co-op type of play.  It'll be an "action-RPG" according to the new owners/developers.
#9 The_Silversword Oct 13, 2011 2:39:58	im taking the wait and see approach, it may very well suck, then again it might not, time will tell i suppose.
#10 sfdragon Oct 13, 2011 10:54:10	and all one will have is another set of either coasters or things to shoot up and the local gun range.,
#11 akaddk Oct 15, 2011 6:20:12	well they was going to charge you a subscription to play, its now going to be free to play, FREE TO PLAY!!!! sounds like good news to me. Until you realise that to do anything beyond the very basic aspects of the game that you end up paying MORE to play it than you would with a subscription. The whole micro-transaction setup is designed to fleece people. They think they're getting a free game and making choices to purchase when in fact the free part of the game is nothing but advertising incentives to keep people on a vicious cycle of impulse purchases. It's worse than gambling and quite frankly should be illegal as it is most definitely immoral.
#12 Jorunhast Oct 15, 2011 17:56:30	well they was going to charge you a subscription to play, its now going to be free to play, FREE TO PLAY!!!! sounds like good news to me. Until you realise that to do anything beyond the very basic aspects of the game that you end up paying MORE to play it than you would with a subscription. The whole micro-transaction setup is designed to fleece people. They think they're getting a free game and making choices to purchase when in fact the free part of the game is nothing but advertising incentives to keep people on a vicious cycle of impulse purchases. It's worse than gambling and quite frankly should be illegal as it is most definitely immoral. Often, this is all true, unfortunately.   It's hard to tell exactly what Neverwinter will actually do when it launches, but if they do go the route of microcharges it could be really bad. Beyond making the game rather dry if you don't buy the good stuff, many of these "free to play MMOs" have a whole host of tricks and "incentives" meant to lure you into those regular "micro-purchases". - really good gear, with the best stats and/or artwork, is usually extra. - potions, items, and other consumables that aid your character or give XP bonuses are extra. - certain content areas (classes, regions, dungeons) aren't opened unless you buy the extras. - for many things (consumables), the cost is low enough to make it tempting. - what you actually spend in real money is usually hidden by making you buy tokens or credits, where you might spend $20 on 2000 credits only to find that the special armor or mount you want costs 2100 credits. - instead of 5 gear slots, you have 18 or more, and all of them need good items for you to be effective, with some slots only filled by items in their store. - the need to replace gear every 2-3 levels, and new "shinies" appearing regularly in the store. - and, of course, the additive effect of "nickel and diming you to death" over months, which can add up so quickly that you literally forget how much you spend. - items don't transfer between characters, so if you want something on all of your PCs you have to buy it multiple times. - there is never a real end-game or final limit in level, usually.  And once you get all the best goodies, they'll release an expansion... which makes all your "best in slot" items rather poor for the next content you'll do. It really is fleecing, and often adds up to much more than a monthly subscription type of MMO.  You -can- play for free, but the game will be just hard enough or just grindy enough, that you'll be tempted to buy a nice item once to give your character a boost and make you feel good.  But then once you do, you're lulled into "it's just $5 this time... and $15 here... and $20 for this amazing mount...".  It's really a dirty, immoral application of behavioral psychology.  The alternative of having monthly subscriptions (instead of microcharges) is better, if only because you know how much is being spent each month.
#13 Mr_Miscellany Oct 15, 2011 19:37:16	It's really a dirty, immoral application of behavioral psychology.  The alternative of having monthly subscriptions (instead of microcharges) is better, if only because you know how much is being spent each month. Where has it been confirmed or posted that this will be how the Neverwinter MMO will work?
#14 Jorunhast Oct 15, 2011 23:13:10	Where has it been confirmed or posted that this will be how the Neverwinter MMO will work? It hasn't, entirely.  As I said, we won't know exactly what they'll charge for until it launches.  They have said, however, that they'll definitely be micro-charging for things like vanity pets, consumables, and "cosmetic items" (usually, this last one means the look of one's armor/clothes). pc.ign.com/articles/119/1198498p1.html They're saying that they don't plan to charge for content patches, but you have to remember two things about the MMO industry: 1- this is how many "free-to-play" MMOs operate, particularly the grindy ones. 2- the company that Atari sold Cryptic to is "Perfect World Entertainment" which makes "Forsaken World" MMO and they have a real-money-for-game-items store.  It's called the Erdya Boutique: fw.perfectworld.com/gameinfo/features/ey... Finally, lest you think making an MMO with microcharges for gear and content is "above" WotC somehow, you should know that D&DO (D&D online) works exactly this same way: compendium.ddo.com/wiki/DDO_Store_Guide
#15 Caolin Oct 16, 2011 19:45:36	It's a long but good read and an interesting but disturbing look at this trend in games. insertcredit.com/2011/09/22/who-killed-v...
#16 DoctorBadWolf Oct 25, 2011 23:34:07	well they was going to charge you a subscription to play, its now going to be free to play, FREE TO PLAY!!!! sounds like good news to me. Until you realise that to do anything beyond the very basic aspects of the game that you end up paying MORE to play it than you would with a subscription. The whole micro-transaction setup is designed to fleece people. They think they're getting a free game and making choices to purchase when in fact the free part of the game is nothing but advertising incentives to keep people on a vicious cycle of impulse purchases. It's worse than gambling and quite frankly should be illegal as it is most definitely immoral. Absolutely false. In DDO, for instance, it is less expensive to buy the content via the micro transaction system than it is to pay a subscription. (you have both options) For this reason, the VIP subs get bonus turbine points and other perks to create an incentive to both paying by month. Champions Online, as another example, is quite playable for free, with the biggest thing you get out of paying a sub being unlocked build custimization. The free archetypes are perfectly viable, however. And the article specifically states that they're going to focus on charging for perks, consumables and vanity items, not content or necessary gear, etc. Jorunhast: See above points about DDO. LoTRO is even cheaper to play at a fun, uninhibited level. (especially if you don't see anything exciting about the Warden or RuneKeeper classes. For me, the Warden was well worth the money) I think I paid less than 50 bucks over 6 months or so of regular play. In DDO, where I was much more frivolous, I paid a good 100 bucks for a year and half or so. In both cases, less than if I was a subscriber. On top of that, I own that content for as long as the game exists, whereas if I had been subbing, I would have no access to that content if I started playing again, but this time for free. None of those purchases were tricky or trap purchases.
#17 DoctorBadWolf Oct 25, 2011 23:34:49	"" In fact, it's shifting towards the action end of the MMO spectrum. Transferring a Dungeons & Dragons universe into an action setting might sound strange to D&D veterans, but it's been done before with some of the Baldur's Gate games."" Sigh, it's a shame how WoTC if just murdering this franchise.  I know that Cryptic is making the game.  But I can't imagine them making these changes without WoTC's consent.  And BTW, those Baldur's Gate Action/RPGs were crap. You mean the very popular and well recieved Baldur's Gate games for consoles? Dark Alliance? lol you're wrong. Also, I'm glad to see that they don't want to charge for content packs. That is encouraging.
#18 Caolin Oct 27, 2011 19:22:53	How exacty can I be wrong on an opinion based comment?  I played both of those games and I thought they were crap.  Short and kind of boring compared with the original RPG.
#19 DoctorBadWolf Oct 27, 2011 21:01:55	How exacty can I be wrong on an opinion based comment?  I played both of those games and I thought they were crap.  Short and kind of boring compared with the original RPG. People are wrong about matters of opinion all the time. There are people who think that Nickleback is comprised of talented musicians making noteworthily high quality music, for instance. Also, when a nerd in a forum says "This game is crap.", he or she is rarely viewing his or her statement as one of opinion, rather than fact. THe Knight of The Old Republic games are very, very different from the Dark Forces games. That does not make either a bad game. The Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance games were fun action/adventure RPGs. The fact that they are set in the same work, under the same general umbrella as the PC BG games means absolutely nothing.
#20 Caolin Oct 28, 2011 13:50:25	How exacty can I be wrong on an opinion based comment?  I played both of those games and I thought they were crap.  Short and kind of boring compared with the original RPG. People are wrong about matters of opinion all the time. There are people who think that Nickleback is comprised of talented musicians making noteworthily high quality music, for instance. Also, when a nerd in a forum says "This game is crap.", he or she is rarely viewing his or her statement as one of opinion, rather than fact. THe Knight of The Old Republic games are very, very different from the Dark Forces games. That does not make either a bad game. The Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance games were fun action/adventure RPGs. The fact that they are set in the same work, under the same general umbrella as the PC BG games means absolutely nothing. An opinion is what you believe to be true.  It holds no attribute of right or wrong.  An opinion can only be wrong if you lie about you true feelings on the subject.  In this case, I don't think I have reason to lie about my feelings on this game.  As far as me stating my opinion as fact, well that's an assumption by you.  A wrong assumption I might add.
#21 DoctorBadWolf Oct 28, 2011 17:38:04	How exacty can I be wrong on an opinion based comment?  I played both of those games and I thought they were crap.  Short and kind of boring compared with the original RPG. People are wrong about matters of opinion all the time. There are people who think that Nickleback is comprised of talented musicians making noteworthily high quality music, for instance. Also, when a nerd in a forum says "This game is crap.", he or she is rarely viewing his or her statement as one of opinion, rather than fact. THe Knight of The Old Republic games are very, very different from the Dark Forces games. That does not make either a bad game. The Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance games were fun action/adventure RPGs. The fact that they are set in the same work, under the same general umbrella as the PC BG games means absolutely nothing. An opinion is what you believe to be true.  It holds no attribute of right or wrong.  An opinion can only be wrong if you lie about you true feelings on the subject.  In this case, I don't think I have reason to lie about my feelings on this game.  As far as me stating my opinion as fact, well that's an assumption by you.  A wrong assumption I might add.   It's a perfectly safe assumption, actually. Trends, context and other social factors determine what conclusions are reasonable concerning the intent of a comment. In this case, those things lead to the conclusion that you were attempting to speak with some sort of authority or definitive knowledge. There are people who think that Mozart sucks. They have that opinion. That opinion is wrong. If your opinion flies in the face of overwhelming data pointing toward the opposite conclusion, your conclusion can safely be dismissed. Since ALL truth is relative (unproven) outside of mathmatics, correct and incorrect are, by definition, not absolutes. The closest thing that exists to an absolute value of correctness is a determination of how safely a statement can be dismissed/ignored. When you say that an award winning, very popular, very well reviewed/received set of games is crap, you are contradicting strong enough data indicative of the opposite that your assertion can be ignored in pretty much complete safety. Therefor, it is appropriate to say that you are wrong.
#22 Caolin Oct 29, 2011 3:17:19	How exacty can I be wrong on an opinion based comment?  I played both of those games and I thought they were crap.  Short and kind of boring compared with the original RPG. People are wrong about matters of opinion all the time. There are people who think that Nickleback is comprised of talented musicians making noteworthily high quality music, for instance. Also, when a nerd in a forum says "This game is crap.", he or she is rarely viewing his or her statement as one of opinion, rather than fact. THe Knight of The Old Republic games are very, very different from the Dark Forces games. That does not make either a bad game. The Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance games were fun action/adventure RPGs. The fact that they are set in the same work, under the same general umbrella as the PC BG games means absolutely nothing. An opinion is what you believe to be true.  It holds no attribute of right or wrong.  An opinion can only be wrong if you lie about you true feelings on the subject.  In this case, I don't think I have reason to lie about my feelings on this game.  As far as me stating my opinion as fact, well that's an assumption by you.  A wrong assumption I might add.   It's a perfectly safe assumption, actually. Trends, context and other social factors determine what conclusions are reasonable concerning the intent of a comment. In this case, those things lead to the conclusion that you were attempting to speak with some sort of authority or definitive knowledge. There are people who think that Mozart sucks. They have that opinion. That opinion is wrong. If your opinion flies in the face of overwhelming data pointing toward the opposite conclusion, your conclusion can safely be dismissed. Since ALL truth is relative (unproven) outside of mathmatics, correct and incorrect are, by definition, not absolutes. The closest thing that exists to an absolute value of correctness is a determination of how safely a statement can be dismissed/ignored. When you say that an award winning, very popular, very well reviewed/received set of games is crap, you are contradicting strong enough data indicative of the opposite that your assertion can be ignored in pretty much complete safety. Therefor, it is appropriate to say that you are wrong. Still an assumption and still a wrong assumption.  Regardless of how "well informed" you think you maybe.  But what does it matter?  I didn't like the game, nothing you say will ever convince me differently.  "Your might makes right" arguement has no sway on me and I can easily ignore whatever opinions you or 1 million people might have about the game.  So I don't understand why you can't accept that this can't be framed as a right or wrong issue.  Just accept that someone in this world dissagrees with you and move on.
#23 Stigger Oct 29, 2011 11:34:43	Personally, I see it as a completely subjective topic.  As Caolin said, its not a right or wrong issue, its a matter of personal taste and opinion.  That a million people disagree is irrelevant, as its a matter of his taste and no one elses.  I don't like MMOs any longer.  Certainly I played AO for years, but in the end, I came to the conclusion that its a huge waste of time and not something that was all that appealing to me.  Certainly Everquest and WoW have a large fanbase, but that doesn't really affect me.  They obviously love MMO's, but that doesn't mean I have to.  Same thing in Caolin's case...  This shouldn't be a difficult thing to see.  Opinions can be uninformed or informed, but not really wrong or right, its too subjective a thing for that.
#24 DoctorBadWolf Oct 29, 2011 17:08:41	Still an assumption and still a wrong assumption.  Regardless of how "well informed" you think you maybe.  But what does it matter?  I didn't like the game, nothing you say will ever convince me differently.  "Your might makes right" arguement has no sway on me and I can easily ignore whatever opinions you or 1 million people might have about the game.  So I don't understand why you can't accept that this can't be framed as a right or wrong issue.  Just accept that someone in this world dissagrees with you and move on.    Lol. I can easily accept that someone disagrees with me. Any person who declines to make a habit of holding their tongue will find disagreement quite common. And yes, you can ignore whatever you want. You can ignore The Big Bang Theory, the Theory of Evolution, and anything else someone else can think of. Your insistance on ignoring those things is, however, completely irrelevant as to whether or not they are correct, and if you speak in contradiction to them, anyone who hears you can dismiss you out of hand without any fear of being wrong in so doing. A final point, if I may. There is an important difference between disliking something and declaring that it is "crap", or any synonym thereof. Stating a dislike for something ("I was completely unimpressed by it", "I couldn't even get through it" "gods I hated those games") is not the same as making a declaritive statement as to the value of something ("it is not good" "what a crap product" "ugh. that thing was terrible!") Precise language is important. I can definitively say, for instance that I enjoy Linkin Park's first album. If I, on the other hand, claim that it is a good album, I need to back that claim up. In this particular case, I won't bother, because I recognize that it is the enjoyable fluff novel of the music world.  It's not actually that great, in terms of an exposition of technical skill or musical quality, but I enjoy it, because I'm able to set aside any need to analyze it's musical qualities while listening to it. Therefor, I don't say that their first album is good. Instead I say, I like their first album. Again, precise language. If I said that it was a good album, there are measures and methodologies by which the album may be judged in terms of musical quality, and I can be shown to be incorrect in my assertion. I cannot, however, be incorrect in my statement of preference. Had you made a statement of preference, this would be an entirely different discussion. Instead, you made a declaritive statement as to something's value and/or quality.
#25 sfdragon Oct 29, 2011 21:32:24	scientific fact: tell someone who is already balegerant cant spell it) and it will piss them off.... I've been in a somewhat decent mood and it annoyed me when someone told me to calm down. possible fighting words: telll someone they are wrong. what was meant to have been said was that they were mistaken. MMOs suck to me as a waste of money and a waste of time. that is however not to say that I think the WOW engine and its graphics    are a work of art. do I think taht NW will sell. well yes as a short run cash cow trying to cash in on the NWN brand. it will sell and will be played and it will come crashing down when and only when its players see it for what it may be and that is a piece of crap. if and when that will happen I can not say.
#26 18DELTA Oct 29, 2011 23:50:47	Your wrong!!;)
#27 sfdragon Oct 30, 2011 0:03:59	you sire did that on that on
#28 DoctorBadWolf Oct 30, 2011 19:41:09	scientific fact: tell someone who is already balegerant cant spell it) and it will piss them off.... I've been in a somewhat decent mood and it annoyed me when someone told me to calm down. possible fighting words: telll someone they are wrong. what was meant to have been said was that they were mistaken. MMOs suck to me as a waste of money and a waste of time. that is however not to say that I think the WOW engine and its graphics    are a work of art. do I think taht NW will sell. well yes as a short run cash cow trying to cash in on the NWN brand. it will sell and will be played and it will come crashing down when and only when its players see it for what it may be and that is a piece of crap. if and when that will happen I can not say.     I doubt it. While I'm not as impressed by Cryptic's abillities in game design as I am by Turbine's (makers of DDO and LOTRO) I also wouldn't expect to see the Foundry go away, since it's also part of one of their existing MMOs (Star Trek), and that is one helluva well liked system. The Foundry, not Star Trek. I haven't heard much good about the rest of the game. :P Anyway, between the Foundry, a F2P model that makes all game content part of the free package, while offering vanity and convenience items (and probably account upgrades like extra bank/character slots and the like) in the store, and a DnD 4d based system (I would never want a direct translation in a video game. It would probably be a bad game. A video game appropriate system that is based strongly and closely on 4e, however, is something I look forward to seeing.) and you've got something that should do fine. It may not be in the same teir as WoW and (we're all assuming) SW:TOR, but if it does as well as DDO and LOTRO are doing, it will be a profitable venture with a healthy and dedicated fanbase.  (also, note that you said that they suck to you, which inherently means that you are actively accepting as a possibility the concept that you may be mistaken. I like it. )
#29 arrowprince Dec 25, 2011 16:26:47	I enjoyed the Baldur's Gate DA games and looking forward to Neverwinter.  I would love for Capcom to put out some D&D beat em ups like the arcade games Tower of Doom and Shadow over Mysteria on xbox live and psn.