I've been around since the heyday of 2nd edition, but I never got into the Realms, always sticking to my homebrews. Hearing about the New Realms got me interested in playing the Realms (yeah, I was one of those people who was frightened away by the proliferation of high powered NPCs and heavy heavy lore. Please forgive me). Now I'm running a campaign, and two of the guys at the table are Realms fans from "back in the day" one of which was a major player in "Living City" and has been playing in FR since FR started, more or less. He's pretty convinced that the new FR can never live up to the old FR (much like many of you, I'm sure), but I'd like to do what I can to convince him otherwise.
How, you say? Can't be done? Well, I defy you, you naysayers!
...
Catch is, I think I may need the help of the naysayers in order to properly defy you. Since I have no grounding in the Realms, and this guy was there pretty much when FR launched, I was hoping I could get some advice on what made the Forgotten Realms feel all "Forgotten Realmsy" in the very early days, before all the tomes of lore. What drew you to FR initially? And how, in your estimation, could one recreate that feel?
I've tried asking the player in question, but he is just so cynical and the only bone he was able to throw me was that "everything just felt more magical," which I'm already working on incorporating. Still, more help I can get, the better, no?
...I can beg if I have to... please don't make me beg
;)~C
Seriously, the beauty of the Realms was the detail.
As for the magical bit, that is essentially true. It is a high magic setting.
How can you recreate that feel? Play in the 3e timeline. Nothing is stopping you from using 4e rules
Plus, it was big and mysterious and the Gray Box -extensive as it was- hardly touched on everything there was to know about the Realms.
Early on I came to enjoy the Realms as a player though the stuff my DMs came up with and some of the published adventures. Great fun was always had when we were in the thick of it (danger-wise) and were having a blast playing our characters, whether it was braving the perils of the halls of Undermountain our DM filled in on his own or exploring the strange magical societies our DM created and placed in the Savage North, or laying siege to the evil denizens of Phlan (from the Ruins of Adventure module) and unraveling the mystery behind the Curse of the Azure bonds.
Anyway, I'd say the issue isn't with the setting, it's with that one player. I wouldn't let his negativity and obvious bias get in the way of you running your game the way you want to do it.
The best way to do that is to make the setting a non-issue.
Remember, the Forgotten Realms has always been a backdrop for DMs to set their games in. Good Realms games always reflect a DM’s ability to take what the setting gives them and use that as a starting point to build a campaign around.
So I say to you: Do your own thing, don't let conversation center on the new setting and don’t be afraid to fill in the gaps to tell your story. Whether you go the published adventure route or start from scratch, make the players the center of your story and keep your game moving at a brisk pace. Your players will likely respond to your call for action and will start having fun right away.
The setting will naturally come alive around them as a result.
That’s how one gets the “Realmsy” feeling going in their campaign.
Newer lore - starting in 3e - is written from a rather bland 'all-knowing' omnipotent point-of-view, which is terrible for gamers because then everything in the setting is set-in-stone, and DMs feel like they can't change any one thing without having to re-write half of Faerûn's history.
What amazes me is that editors - who are completely clueless - thought that removing all that 'extranneous text' was somehow beneficial. They took sourcbooks that used to read like novels and turned them into HS textbooks - and no-one wants to read text books.
Thats why I was amazed that Ed had designed Returned Abeir in the new FRCG - it reads so bland that it hardly seems like Ed at all (except, perhaps, for the names). However, I found out at CK that they 'boiled down' everything he sent them into that rather dry format - they actually took GREAT material and de-flavored it!
Read one of the Volo's Guides in 2e and you'll see what I mean - the rambling text and chaotic nature of the books makes them that much 'warmer'. You'll never see their like in 4e, and thats the whole problem. Lore is fluff, and data is crunch, and the books now seem to be all about usable material, rather then trying to bring the world to life.
Someone over at CK said it best many months ago - it's as if they tore down a real medieval castle and erected a Disney one in it's place. Have you ever been in a real castle? I've been in both, and you can actually feel the history pressing down on you in the real one - something you just don't get from the pretty, Disney-version. That's what it is like for me now in 4eFR - I no longer feel the weight of the world's past pressing down on me, and filling me with awe.
Someone over at CK said it best many months ago - it's as if they tore down a real medieval castle and erected a Disney one in it's place. Have you ever been in a real castle? I've been in both, and you can actually feel the history pressing down on you in the real one - something you just don't get from the pretty, Disney-version. That's what it is like for me now in 4eFR - I no longer feel the weight of the world's past pressing down on me, and filling me with awe.
thats actually a pretty good analogy. Although a big castle scares me
"everything just felt more magical,"
I agree with him. Up to and including about 2/3rds of 2nd ed FR had a pretty magical feel. Can you do this with 4e?
Yes, easily. Forgetting for a second your familiarity with pre 3.x stuff (which I consider a blessing, 3.x blergh :P) you have all the materials between your ears, you are the only lore your player needs. As DM you set tone, mood and feel of every adventure. If your players have specific requirements to play FR and enjoy it then highlight those expectations whilst downplaying the elements you know will detract from his experience.
Also if you have your old stuff or the patience to search the interweb then put little easter eggs into the occasional session. You don't need to master every minutiae of realms lore and I encourage you not to, campaign set primarily in the Sword Coast doesn't require intimate knowledge of Anauroch or Rasheman.
Finally please remember you won't be playing in the Forgotten Realms, your playing in YOUR Forgotten Realms. You and your players will determine what facts or imagery works best for your game. Just my opinion and advice for what it's worth.
Ultimately the Realms will live up to nothing, it is just a backdrop for you to set the mutual story you and your players tell. That is where any game rises and falls.
"A vast land, full of strange splendors—a living background for vivid adventure." -- Ed Greenwood, DM's Sourcebook of the Forgotten Realms, pg. 4.
On those words alone, I've spent the last 20 years exploring the wide and wonderful Realms. What was once solely Ed's world, is now my world too -- along with all the useful lore, the not-so-useful lore, and everything in-between.
And it's still upon those words that my firm belief in the Realms rests. Every campaign, every piece of lore I write in support of my Realms, is built upon the foundation of Ed's own words. That I am writing something for a "vast land," that can include many of the "full" and "strange splendors" that I desire -- whether they be published creations or constructs from my own mind. My Realms is "a living background" that offers each and every player at my gaming table the opportunity for "vivid adventure."
I couldn't ask for anything more.
...I was hoping I could get some advice on what made the Forgotten Realms feel all "Forgotten Realmsy" in the very early days, before all the tomes of lore. What drew you to FR initially? And how, in your estimation, could one recreate that feel?
I've tried asking the player in question, but he is just so cynical and the only bone he was able to throw me was that "everything just felt more magical," which I'm already working on incorporating. Still, more help I can get, the better, no?
I'm not a naysayer, but someone started this thread asking about that question, so hopefully this will help.
I wouldn't worry too much about trying to convince this one player if your FR is 'real' or not. Just focus on playing your game as you see fit. If he enjoys it, great. If he doesn't while the rest of your players do, his loss.
nor am i the old guard.
i came to the realms with BG.
i do remember buying a frcs that came in a gray box as well.
had nice big maps of cormyr in it.
been hooked ever since.
loved the 3e frcs.
i found the 4efrcs depressing and the 4e pg2fr is as well.
i can get over the 100 yr jump.
i can get over alot.
but some things i wont buy.
the realms are yours to enjoy, enjoy it the way you best way you know how.
its only enjoyable when its experienced.
but what irks some of us, is well unimaginative novel plots.
Re: the FORGOTTEN REALMS feel,
"A vast land, full of strange splendours—a living background for vivid adventure." -- Ed Greenwood, DM's Sourcebook of the Forgotten Realms, pg. 4.
On those words alone, I've spent the last 20 years exploring the wide and wonderful Realms. What was once solely Ed's world, is now my world too -- along with all the useful lore, the not-so-useful lore, and everything in-between.
And it's still upon those words that my firm belief in the Realms rests. Every campaign, every piece of lore I write in support of my Realms, is built upon the foundation of Ed's own words. That I am writing something for a "vast land," that can include many of the "full" and "strange splendours" that I desire -- whether they be published creations or constructs from my own mind. My Realms is "a living background" that offers each and every player at my gaming table the opportunity for "vivid adventure."
I couldn't ask for anything more.
**Stands**
And that so elegantly says it all. I haven't run a realms game in years, and although I currently play in two have been ambivalent to the setting because of personal hang ups. Thank you for reminding me what truly made the realms a magical place to run games.
the lore and the magic attracted me,'I and not a newb to the realms.
nor am i the old guard.
i came to the realms with BG.
i do remember buy a frcs that came in a gray box as well.
had nice big maps of cormyr in it.
been hook ever since.
loved the 3e frcs.
i find the 4efrcs depressing and the 4e pg2fr is as well.
i can get over the 100 yr jump.
i can get over alot.
but some things i wont buy.
the realms are yours to enjoy, enjoy it the way you best way you know how.
its only enjoyable when its experienced.
but what irks some of us, is well imaginative novel plots.
On behalf of the original poster thank you for answering his query so constructively.
Please I understand that you don't like the changes but as I recently stated elsewhere nothing good comes from only seeing a half empty glass. Their are many areas that are relatively unscathed by the changes and it would be easy to set very traditional FR games there, use what existing lore you have from previous editions to set the feel you love and if you want to make them 4e just use the mechanics from the new books. Or even set games pre-spellplague.
These board can be a fantastic resource for both old and new FR 3.5/4e fans if we all let it. Or we can make it a ghost town. The choice is ours.
I truly believe that if this board can take a more positive turn and offer constructive critique, not criticism mind you, but heartfelt well presented positive opinions the realms that are will evolve to more closely resemble in tone and style the realms that were. The realms that you, I and I think many of the writers love.
What do you say?
I truly believe that if this board can take a more positive turn and offer constructive critique, not criticism mind you, but heartfelt well presented positive opinions the realms that are will evolve to more closely resemble in tone and style the realms that were. The realms that you, I and I think many of the writers love.
What do you say?
No. The realms that I love are gone. I have no positive opinions of the new setting. What do I do?
No. The realms that I love are gone. I have no positive opinions of the new setting. What do I do?
Move on?
I could leave my answer there I suppose...
The realms that were are not gone. That lore and shared experience are still kicking around. And as long as people share that with each other...
One of the few things that I do like about the FRCG is that it's bare bones enough that you can shape and mould it to more closely resemble the setting as you would have it.
Don't like Mystra dead? Ignore it, or have your first 1-30 level be about the restoration/resurrection of the Goddess of Magic. Don't like the spellplague? 100 years have passed say it's faded and tell your players the spellscarred are an unavailable class.
Like the flavour of Abeir but not the implementation? Keep returned Abeir(?) but ignore the floating islands and/or crushed Mulhorand.
The choice of how you play the realms or the shape it takes are yours and your players.
I do not particularly like any of the changes since the end of 2e so if I were to run a FR game I would only take the mechanics from the new books, ignoring approximately 90% of the fluff after the FR adventures book even setting it in that campaign year.
When I say have a positive opinion I don't necessarily mean about FR 4e and the direction it's taken. I mean have a positive opinion about FR, you obviously did for many years.
We know that the designers and writers come and view these boards, if were positive about what we like or would love to see and can get enough agreement, support then I don't doubt that we'll see some of it happen. Realistically not all our wishes can come true though.
If all we do is moan and wail then it becomes white noise. Fact of life, people respond better to positivity than negativity. Don't say I hate x, say instead x would be really good if... or having y happen here would really...
Regardless of popular opinion change is not always good, but that doesn't mean it has to be bad either.
Help change yours, mine and other peoples FR experiences into something that we can all enjoy
I was hoping I could get some advice on what made the Forgotten Realms feel all "Forgotten Realmsy" in the very early days, before all the tomes of lore. What drew you to FR initially? And how, in your estimation, could one recreate that feel?
Hmmm... while the extensive lore was hit and miss - the latter due to many, many mediocre, if not outright horrible novels -, it was nice to have so much to fall back on whenever your own imagination couldn't come up with something decent.
In order to appeal to me, it has to be obvious that a lot of thought has gone into a setting - clearly the case with the OR, clearly not with the NR -, or it has to have many original and evocative ideas that get your imagination running - again, partially the case with the OR, and I'm afraid it's not with the NR. But that doesn't mean that the NR can't be a great setting - you just have to invest much more work. (In fact, almost every setting, no matter how bland, can be good in the hands of a talented GM.)
What caught my interest early on was when they announced the time jump - thinking about what could happen in a 100 years was intriguing. I hoped the designers would extrapolate the current situation in a logical way, but instead of wondering, "Hey, what would make the most sense?" IMHO they seem to have wondered, "Hey, what would I consider cool? What do other settings have the Realms don't?" However, of course it's all a matter of taste. Apparently you're not too familiar with the OR, but that friend of yours is. Why don't you just ask him to fall back on his knowledge of the setting and come up with his own time jump history, basically recreating the Realms? Not only would that get his creative juices going, it might also rekindle the flame. Since you're not familiar with the Realms anyway, you'd have little to lose here.
DB
Move on?
perhaps. I have in a sense. I have not purchase anu of the 4E Realms books myself nor will I, though I did read in detail the Campaign book
But maybe if enough of us pound our fists and cry for change it will happen. So maybe I will continue to do that
Re: the FORGOTTEN REALMS feel,
"A vast land, full of strange splendors—a living background for vivid adventure." -- Ed Greenwood, DM's Sourcebook of the Forgotten Realms, pg. 4."
On those words alone, I've spent the last 20 years exploring the wide and wonderful Realms. What was once solely Ed's world, is now my world too -- along with all the useful lore, the not-so-useful lore, and everything in-between.
And it's still upon those words that my firm belief in the Realms rests. Every campaign, every piece of lore I write in support of my Realms, is built upon the foundation of Ed's own words. That I am writing something for a "vast land," that can include many of the "full" and "strange splendors" that I desire -- whether they be published creations or constructs from my own mind. My Realms is "a living background" that offers each and every player at my gaming table the opportunity for "vivid adventure."
I couldn't ask for anything more.
You, sir, get a cookie. Thats probably not only one of the best pieces of advice in this thread, but also one of the best pieces of advice on running D&D games in general. Thank you.
~C
How, you say? Can't be done? Well, I defy you, you naysayers!
If you want "naysayers" to help you, maybe you shouldn't decide how they are going to answer you before they've even gotten a chance to speak?
In my opinion, it's unlikely you'll be able to convince the person in question to change his opinion. If it isn't actually causing any problems at the gaming table, you should probably all just agree to drop the subject and move on. You have your opinion--let other people have theirs.
I know thats terrible, but I can't help what pops into my very disturbed head. :P
If you want "naysayers" to help you, maybe you shouldn't decide how they are going to answer you before they've even gotten a chance to speak?
Sorry, I thought it was a clear attempt at humour, capitalizing on the, ahem, "diversity" of opinion this board in particular ;) . What I should have realized is that nothing is clear in text. I'm sorry if there was any perceived offense.
Edit: Perhaps instead I could have said something like the following:
"What's that, Mr. Strawman? You say 'No, it cannot be done'? Well I defy you Strawman!
...Unfortunately, Strawman arguments get me nowhere, so I need some fans from back in the day to help me out."
Or somesuch.
... maybe I'm just not near as funny as I like to think I am. There's always that...
In my opinion, it's unlikely you'll be able to convince the person in question to change his opinion. If it isn't actually causing any problems at the gaming table, you should probably all just agree to drop the subject and move on. You have your opinion--let other people have theirs.
Well, it's causing some immersion issues, as well as a disturbing number of snide comments. I don't hope to force an opinion change or anything, I just want to do what I can to make things more enjoyable for him, myself, and everyone else at the table.
Markus and Blackheart: That's exactly the response I was prompting :D *smooch*
Well, it's causing some immersion issues, as well as a disturbing number of snide comments.
In my opinion, that's the real problem. If this person can't be a good sport, why is he playing? He doesn't have to think the 4E Realms are as good as the pre-4E Realms, but if he's going to play a 4E Realms game, he should be gracious about it.
I don't like the 4e rules becuase they are VERY different from what I am used to, but I also think, perhaps, I may have pre-judged them based on other's comments. I was at the bookstore yesterday with my son (20), and he really wants me to start running D&D again for him and his friends (our campaign has been on 'hold' for a year and a half!).
We were lookin' at the 4e stuff....* :embarrass
I just wish I could play in someone else's game to see how the rules play before commiting to them. I can work with just about anything, and I'm sure I'd tweak the hell out of them like I've done to every other edition, so thats no problem. Playability is crucial, though, and it does seem to have that going for it.
Anyhow, I allowed myself to go astray again...
My point is that although I have disliked 4e rules/setting since their release, I have always tried to remain helpful to the 4e players here... even while posting snide comments. ;)
I hope at least a couple of them will back me up on that.
* Yes, I'm feeling a little like Anakin Skywalker at the moment.
I don't like the 4e Realms, NOT because it's crap (see, opinions CAN be changed :P ), but because it took the destruction of the setting I love to accomplish.(
I dislike because it both destroyed my setting and is crap
We were lookin' at the 4e stuff....* :embarrass
no need to be embarassed. I like some of what 4e has to offer. I like the paragon path idea, but we need a lot more options here. A handful for each class is not enough. I wish there was more of an ability to multiclass. I am not a big fan of the magic system. I prefer the old. But combat is great. There is a real equality of the classes. There are no dead levels.
* Yes, I'm feeling a little like Anniken Skywalker at the moment.
Its spelled Anakin
I do not like 4eFR in general, because it's really just a big folio of ideas, not really a cohesive setting (IMHO). Some of those ideas I like, and some I like A LOT, but most of them...
If I run any FR in the near future, it will probably be set around 1400 and contain elements of both 3e and 4e (so I can cherry-pick the few changes I DO like). No reason to dismiss the entire setting wholesle when I can mine it for ideas. ;)
Its spelled Anakin
Shows you just how 'into' SW I am. :D