Periodically flying over and tormenting the hapless citizens of Sembia, our greedy little
Of course! As one of the pre-eminent archmages of reborn Netheril, my city inspires fear and obediance. How could it not?
"We can rebuild you. Make you faster. Make you stronger."
Make you more 4e.
-Well, hopefully is gets a "fresh coat of paint", due to the fact that it was pretty much totaled and destroyed when it fell.
We kept the sentient psionic Mythallar, of course, but we swept all the non-usable rubble into the ocean. Nice new buildings there now. :D
How could it not?
When Larloch comes to claim you little nice city.
I just love the name! I wish I would have thought of that name. :P -Ebil Shades. ;)
We kept the sentient psionic Mythallar, of course, but we swept all the non-usable rubble into the ocean. Nice new buildings there now. :D
-I would hope.
I see it shaking off the theocracy of Shar sooner or later. Afterward the other princes will "man" up and do the same and other floating cities pop up each governed by a prince and each having its own feel just like back in the netheril 2E stuff. Shade will remain Shade though.
And where on Bejebuz's backside do you see such a scenario popping up?
I'm still trying to figure out why it (and Shade) didn't drop out of the sky like the last time when Mystra died...
But probably some 'genius' game-designer will figure out, that Shar did also solve this problem before bringing about Mystras death...
What I do envison for Sakkors?
I'm still trying to figure out why it (and Shade) didn't drop out of the sky like the last time when Mystra died...
But probably some 'genius' game-designer will figure out, that Shar did also solve this problem before bringing about Mystras death...
I'm still wondering that myself...
I'm still wondering that myself...
Shar saved us! Again! :D :D :D
And where on Bejebuz's backside do you see such a scenario popping up?
The OP asked what I envisioned for the city. That scenario exists in my head and it can happen if I use my imagination to make it work. Pretty simple.
IMO if both cities survived as did Larloch's HQ and Tam's place then I do not see why a few floating towers from Halruua cannot do the same. Of course they have been operating in secret after all these years, maybe even funding the Order of the Blue Flame or something to that nature.
As in how?
let yah know as soon as I figure it out...still digging through arcane age for a clue.
As in how?
As in the level 30 Raise Land Ritual or the level 26 Shift Mote Ritual. Essentially big rock with nothing on it smashes into big rock with lots of stuff on it. Not a pretty scene.
Honestly... why would anyone want to bring Sakkors down? It's a lovely city.
-They ever get that fishy smell out of the stones?
-They ever get that fishy smell out of the stones?
Now now, they have come to appreciate the fleshy brain bits of monstrous squid that still pulsate on their mythallar. ;)
Honestly... why would anyone want to bring Sakkors down? It's a lovely city.
Netheril was an empire ruled by true men, these shadovar are less then men, they are horrors spawned in the shadowfell and must be driven from Faerun. hopefully with the sharp swords of the purple dragons!!:D
-They ever get that fishy smell out of the stones?
nah Old Man Lord Shadow has been known to show up from time to time eating the FR version of tuna fish there.
and tuna fish stinks
I'm still wondering that myself...
At least you are still wondering
So maybe you will be the game-designer to come up with a better explanation than: "Shar told all the evil magic-using nations to power down their stuff for the duration of the next decades/Spellplague (leaving Halruaa to it's doom) before she went to attend Mystra's death".
But than again maybe a Mythalar is as good a protection against wild/dead magic as a Mythal...but that didn't seem to have been the case when Mystryl died...hm
Best wishes
Lirdolin
The OP asked what I envisioned for the city. That scenario exists in my head and it can happen if I use my imagination to make it work. Pretty simple.
Of course, you can. My interpretation of the OP though has to do with “What do you think Wizards will do…?”
Your vision seems a long way coming though….
:invasion:
let yah know as soon as I figure it out...still digging through arcane age for a clue.
Are you saying you need to get one?!!
-Sakkors does have a sentient Mythallar, that can/has been used as a weapon of sorts...
Yes. The new and improved Death Sakkors is now under the control of Darth Rivalen.
As in the level 30 Raise Land Ritual or the level 26 Shift Mote Ritual. Essentially big rock with nothing on it smashes into big rock with lots of stuff on it. Not a pretty scene.
Well, that was simple. :whatsthis
I'm still wondering that myself...
Its was part of Obama's 'go green' incentive plan - they switched-over from polution-ridden Arcane magic to clean-burning Shadoweave energy. :D
Its was part of Obama's 'go green' incentive plan - they switched-over from polution-ridden Arcane magic to clean-burning Shadoweave energy. :D
Probably better than your plan...
;)
You confuse the hell out of me sometimes.
Probably better than your plan...
fixed
You guys are making me nutz!
Also, you're supposed to be using my modified version of that smiley -
I have NO IDEA how to take that.
You confuse the hell out of me sometimes.
That’s the point. :whatsthis
fixed
What is that a symbol of?!
You guys are making me nutz!
And the second time I ever voted, I voted for myself, and thats the truth. :D
Primary, not main election, but I can proudly say I had may name in a voting booth once, and got to pull the little lever for myself.
Anyhow, I voted Obama, but I didn't bother following any of the election crap - there was no need.
Besides... everyone knows Shades are Republicans. :P
Besides... everyone knows Shades are Republicans. :P
Besides... everyone knows Shades are Republicans. :P
This is true. :P
That said, wouldn't people like to talk about their vision, their plans in their games for the Netheril Empire, particularly their view and perception of New Sakkors?
My city is most beautiful when bathed in twilight, the glittering of dying stars above. We look down on Sembia, literally and figuratively, and when it suits us we are prepared to force their development in certain areas... when needed. My home, a tower in the north-central quarter, has touches of black and white marble, fine imported furniture from all across Faerun, and is a triumph in architectural design: it has all the features and classic structural elements of Old Netheril, and yet some areas have drawn from later post-classical periods.
For nearly 75 years, my extensive gardens have been a primary source for seeds, clippings, and plant stock, for the Nether-forming of the desert below, a revitalization project to support the families of our armies. Perhaps unique to my house, although my mentor did much the same, we have been experimenting with the stuff of life itself: using magic to subtly alter the genetics of beasts so that they can better serve our needs as protectors, pets, or even as novelties to behold; my favorite has been the creation of a variant Tressym, a sable-dark feline with wings like a raven's, possessed of keen intelligence, and a penchant for tearing apart their prey. They require bonding and training, but are excellent pets.
My apprentices work in my arcane laboratories to better understand the changes in magic that were brought about by Mystra's fall, and from time to time I send one or two out into the world to collect bits of information or an old artifact important to Mystra's dead cult. Additionally, we study the arcanomechanics of the mythallar, and are nearing completion of a device that is portable yet can bolster defenses, store spells, and enhance items within a certain radius. The latter, of course, will be important as our Empire begins to spread and acquire more territory.
I shouldn't forget to mention the creation of special slave collars, though collar is a bit of a stretch as they are quite elegant works of mithral chain. These dull and cool the mind, making the wearer receptive to commands of many types and are quite effective, although they are expensive. I have several more powerful versions of my own design that from time to time I have used to bring a particularly naughty Sembian into line; my favorite is a recent "example" that I made of the young and impetuous "noble" Kiernas Uskevren. Although I generally look down upon keeping slaves as ...concubines, for lack of a better term, Kiernas is far too pretty and *ahem* talented to languish in a dungeon (though his wife in Sembia might prefer it).
I mean, if I have to pull out that Obama sign one more time, then I am going to smack a squirrel with it.
Wow. The stuff I find here is even more random and funny than the off topic tavern. Do threads get derailed this often?
Aw...you baiter, you...so silly.
But some people would rather spend their entire lives arguing over obscure points of lore. :P
Now before I get the 'Smackdown' from the powers that be (why do I feel like playing Another Brick in the wall, pt II?), lets discuss Sakkors.
I posted that rather amusing (IMHO) picture of the Death Star II to illustrate a point, and that is that the Shade Enclave itself reminds me of the first Deathstar.
You know, just appearing and blowing places up. Its so over-the-top boring I hated it from the get-go.
You simply can't use a 'city' as your main villain - its too much! Thats was the problem with the novels - they were full of non-useful lore. If you are going to write stories set in the Realms, at least make the storylines useful to non-epic games. They should have at least given us a weakness... and maybe some decendent of Telemont who had a Magic Carpet and was damned good shooting Womp Rats with a bow...
Anyhow... I'm digressing again... :embarrass
Sakkors was completely destroyed. All lore about it is therefore completely inaccurate and should be disregarded by anyone with any intelligence.
Pg. 109, LEoF - "Sakkors is now little more then a pile of rubble..."
So what we have there is a giant, flying PILE OF RUBBLE! Its NOT a city - its can't be.
The other Enclave that wound-up underwater - that remained INTACT - was Nhalloth (pg. 108 of LeoF). Obviously, once again, we have an incident of a designer NOT bothering to do any research. Nhalloth is the city that they meant to use, but couldn't be bothered to read the products that their own company puts out.
Then again... neither should we... anymore.
I posted that rather amusing (IMHO) picture of the Death Star II to illustrate a point, and that is that the Shade Enclave itself reminds me of the first Deathstar.
You know, just appearing and blowing places up. Its so over-the-top boring I hated it from the get-go.
It had a man called Grand Moff Willhuff Tarkin on it. That ain't boring!
Pg. 109, LEoF - "Sakkors is now little more then a pile of rubble..."
So what we have there is a giant, flying PILE OF RUBBLE! Its NOT a city - its can't be.
To be fair--I know Mr. Kemp's books don't say that the city itself was still intact underwater, they said the mountain-top the city rested on was still intact. What the Shades did was raise the top out of the water and rebuilt the city. Did you overlook that?
The entry for that city clearly states it was destroyed, and the entry for ANOTHER UNDERWATER ENCLAVE, appearing on the facing page, has one that is perfectly intact.
MY POINT is that the wrong ciity was used. I don't care if the Shades rebuilt a NEW Sakkors on top of the mountain that held OLD Sakkors - what I want to know is why is everyone's playing with broken ol' Sakkors when there is a MUCH BETTER city residing in the same body of water?
One who's entry doesn't clearly state "Sakkors is now little more then a pile of rubble..."
But why use it AT ALL?
Don't know, ask Mr. Kemp.;)
Was this other city near Sembia?
"Sakkors: This fallen Netherese city suffered more grievously than Nhalloth in the eastern seas, though in many ways it retains more of the lost empire of magic."
Reasons to use sakkors instead of Nhalloth:
1. Nhalloth has been picked over by treasure seekers since its discovery in 1305 DR. "few come away with anything other than awe at the Discovery Age architecture that remains intact despite the fall and the sea's erosion." Meanwhile, "Hundreds of ancient magical items and artifacts are buried beneath the silt and rubble of Sakkors' fifteen-mile-long path." It plainly has more juice left in it, despite the disrepair.
2. Nhalloth is near the pirate isles, Sakkors lay near Sembia.
3. Sakkors is less obvious since apparently Nhalloth is well-known.
4. It's entirely possible that the Shade Netherese know more about Sakkors, prefer it for some political or magical or aesthetic reason, would like more of a blank slate to build their own city on, or just like the name better.
4. It's entirely possible that the Shade Netherese know more about Sakkors, prefer it for some political or magical or aesthetic reason, would like more of a blank slate to build their own city on, or just like the name better.
-It is a better name, I will say.
Thats WHAT.
We all know that even "history" cannot always be called fact. If you are Eastern Orthodox, like I am, the "Great Schism" is taken one way. If you are Roman Catholic, it is taken another way.
It's not like a series of 10 modules all took place in Nhalloth and then it was changed, in "canon", to Sakkors. Someone in Candlekeep made a poor assumption, didn't do his research, and LEoF was written with... historical errors.
I love the 3.5 Realms and I love 4e, and the 4e Realms have rough edges, but generally I like very much what was done. Now, I am making the 4e Realms "my own" by writing--as a DM--whatever the heck I want to. That's why I call it "fantasy".
All Elves do.
MarkusTay - Leader of the Arhtuulev Hterdle... Huzzah!!! :fight!:
I'm still wondering that myself...
The implied power within Sakkors Mythallar should have been more than sufficient IMO to maintain the positions of the two cities at least until the Shades could solve the issue of altered magic once more.
Already there is a ritual to accomplish the same thing spells did in the past for inverting mountains, so I'd assume with their breadth of knowledge, and perhaps Shars aid, they quickly reworked the various magical paths so as to continue to support both.
That said, the Mythals survived multiple setting changes in the past, their original spells functioning despite rule changes, so I'd imagine the Mythallars could do the same, other speculation aside.
-RW
Cormyr just sucks. Seriously. They think they're the epitimy of good. Those cub scouts and their worthless allies are a smudge on Faerun that will be wiped away by Netheril. Making the southern Dragon Coasts' moast proiminent cities "protectorates". Mongrels, the Cormyrians are.
Oh, we will do that. Wipe that smudge of Faerun. Until then, they may live, if only because we have yet to find Windex.
But my opinion on Sakkor's future? Well, the Death Star pretty much sums it up.
I don't care if Karsus says no more politics, I must put my two cents in.
-Dare me again, and you'll be in deep heat.
-That said, the ban on discussing politics extends only to actual politics.
Cormyr just sucks. Seriously. They think they're the epitimy of good. Those cub scouts and their worthless allies are a smudge on Faerun that will be wiped away by Netheril. Making the southern Dragon Coasts' moast proiminent cities "protectorates". Mongrels, the Cormyrians are.
Oh, we will do that. Wipe that smudge of Faerun. Until then, they may live, if only because we have yet to find Windex.
-Cormyr, all in all, is probably one of the most powerful nations on Faerûn. It has powerful leadership, powerful personages within it, "powerful" alliances with other powerful nations and city-states. That's why Cormyr has been able to survive for so long as an independent sovereign nation in the face of so much adversity over the years.
Yeah... I'd say Cormyr is pretty bad-@ss. :D
Thank God the designers were smart enough to keep Cormyr, and even 'grow' her a bit. Its pretty-much one of the few balancing things left in the setting.
They defeated a Horde of Horse-barbarians with very little help and a relatively small army, when a mighy empire with hundreds of thousands of soldiers couldn't.
-I completely forgot about the Tuigan Horde. Yeah, Cormyr was pretty much the backbone of the force that repelled it.
But even if Cormyr is the strongest nation on Faerun, we all know that...Shou Lung's better.
I will now sum up the humor of both Netheril and Shou Lung being more powerful in one sentence/word/other:
loolloolololololololol
I will now sum up the humor of both Netheril and Shou Lung being more powerful in one sentence/word/other:
loolloolololololololol
[Inside Joke]
-Nah, that's Zakhara...
[/Inside Joke]
-Shou Lung would probably oppose Netheril.
[Inside Joke]
-Nah, that's Zakhara...
[/Inside Joke]
-Shou Lung would probably oppose Netheril.
Maybe, but then there's T'u Lung, which is a politically unstable nation (I'd think this be true even 100 years later). Netheril could infiltrate the various T'u factions in that nation, potentially unify the nation, and then Shou Lung would have some serious problems on its hands (if the Spellplague didn't affect it already).
You ever read that little tale about why there are no Dragons in Zakhara? It a classic. :D
Sakkors was completely destroyed. All lore about it is therefore completely inaccurate and should be disregarded by anyone with any intelligence.
Pg. 109, LEoF - "Sakkors is now little more then a pile of rubble..."
So what we have there is a giant, flying PILE OF RUBBLE! Its NOT a city - its can't be.
The other Enclave that wound-up underwater - that remained INTACT - was Nhalloth (pg. 108 of LeoF). Obviously, once again, we have an incident of a designer NOT bothering to do any research. Nhalloth is the city that they meant to use, but couldn't be bothered to read the products that their own company puts out.
Of the three shattered cities described in any detail in Lost Empires of Faerûn, Sakkors was the best choice for a revived enclave.
Jiksidur shattered over the plains of Narfell and many of its treasures were looted by agents of the Nentyarch immediately after the folly of Karsus. More importantly, Jikisdur was Larloch's enclave, and attempting to defile or usurp its remains would certainly provoke a conflict with him.
Nhalloth has been explored repeatedly by treasure seekers. More importantly, it rests off the coast of Aglarond, and attempting to raise it would have placed them in open conflict with the Simbul, as opposed to the 'quiet' spellwar they waged with Mystra's servants behind the scenes up until this point. Given that ten Shade Princes could barely defend their mythallar against five Chosen of Mystra back in 1372 DR, and that they have never had the opportunity to test their mettle against her directly, it would seem unlikely that Telamont would be reckless enough to dispatch any of his sons to go excavating ruins on the edges of the Simbul's realm.
The Tears So White short story in Realms of the Elves does yield a somewhat narrow window of opportunity in 1374 DR for the Shades to have attempted to seize either of those ruins, during which time Larloch and the Simbul would have been fairly engaged elsewhere. However it would have required the Shades to locate, secure, and raise those ruins in a dramatically far quicker period of time than they had managed to do with Sakkors, and it would have required them to be able to magically discern the precise location of Larloch, the Simbul, and their key allies/servants during that period. However in both cases Shadowbred clearly implies that the Princes of Shade would have had neither the time or material resources for the former, nor the magical ability necessary for the latter.
By 1375 DR one could argue that Jiksidur...or even Orbedal (Warloch's Crypt) might be seizable by the Shades, given that in the preceding year the Simbul had destroyed most (if not all) of Larloch's lich servants in Tshaddarna, and that it would have taken him "a decade at least to replace them." That said, provoking a wizardwar with Larloch would not have seemed a wise choice given how many enemies the Shades had acquired at this point in time, and such an act may prompt other Netherese survivors to strike preemptively against the Shades before they find themselves besieged as well.
Yet in contrast, Nhalloth becomes an even more daunting target in 1375 DR. The onset of a civil war in Thay means the Simbul's enemies to the East are all busy killing each other, and enables her attentions to drift elsewhere. Meanwhile the events occurring in Shadowdale (see Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land) at this time--and Prince Yder's direct involvement with them--make it profoundly unwise for he or his brothers to find themselves anywhere within the Simbul's grasp.
But why use it AT ALL?
The entry for that city clearly states it was destroyed, and the entry for ANOTHER UNDERWATER ENCLAVE, appearing on the facing page, has one that is perfectly intact.
MY POINT is that the wrong ciity was used. I don't care if the Shades rebuilt a NEW Sakkors on top of the mountain that held OLD Sakkors - what I want to know is why is everyone's playing with broken ol' Sakkors when there is a MUCH BETTER city residing in the same body of water?
One who's entry doesn't clearly state "Sakkors is now little more then a pile of rubble..."
The Shades did not care overmuch about the landmass or the architecture of shattered Sakkors. What they wanted was the mass of artifacts, magic items, and the sentient mythallar buried amidst those ruined buildings and rubble..things that are not to be found in abundance in Jikisdur or Nhalloth. Excavating and rebuilding Sakkors itself gave them a floating enclave as a secondary prize and symbolic example of their desire to rebuild their empire despite the ravages time and catastrophe had dealt to it.
Now I understand that you are most likely disregarding stats on her, and based on the novels a sound argument can be made to that end. That said, in any novel a sound argument can be made for most characters, that often put them at odds with their own statistics. After all, by the novels alone, there would be no reason for any rational person to fear the Zhents, Red Wizards, or any other allegedly diabolical organization set out in the setting.
Ed has always portrayed the Simbul as this paragon of unparalleled power more times than not, however he has also stated that in a fight between Elminster and Drizzt, the victor would be dependant upon the person writing the encounter. It is for this reason, that in matters of power clashes, we have to unfortunately look only to the stats.
I may not like them, and may edit them as a DM, but you can't make a fair argument to the contrary if you attempt to defend an opinion based on the often outlandish things done in novels.
Essentially what I am saying here, is that IF Shade were to have moved for the city off of Aglaronds coast, they'd not have failed taking it by stats, and if it was intended to happen, nor would they have failed in novel.
-RW
The sourcebook says its rubble.
Now it flies...
So its a flying pile of rubble... end of story.
I completely agree!
Whatever.
The sourcebook says its rubble.
Now it flies...
So its a flying pile of rubble... end of story.
I think it's dependant on ones definition and view of rubble. And while the city itself may have been greatly reduced to not so much stone, the base, and feasibly Mythallar/ surrounding buildings, would/ could have feasibly remained largely intact.
-RW
What little was left (and Paul described it sounding a LOT like a pile of rubble - HE did his homework), that Kraken destroyed when it freed itself.
So yeah... there was one small place that was left intact, and that was obliterarated in Mr. Kemp's novel.
I stand corrected - what we have there is a giant pile of flying rubble with Kraken Brains dripping from it. :P
You can tell those weren't 'Union Jobs'.
I assume they used the same fellers that worked on Zhentil Keep and the missing Tower of the Eclipse? :D
-Probably- though, the Tower of the Eclipse wasn't that roughed up, if I recall correctly from the Erevis Cale trilogy.
You can tell those weren't 'Union Jobs'.
-Worker unions would be destroyed and infiltrated by evil taskmasters trying to break them up in Faerûn, with no regulations and all of that.
They've rebuilt another tower in it's place (thats canon). I think it took maybe a day and a half, at most.
Zhentil Keep was my favorite - immediately after selling everyone the Ruins of Zhentil Keep boxed set, they announced it was rebuilt and EXACTLY like before (including all the people who were killed, who all miraculously came back to life).
Before I even had a chance to use it, they negated the usefulness of the product. I should have seen the trend developing even way back then...
Ummmm... "wasn't roughed up"? The Sojourner TOOK the whole damn thing!
-Right. Erevis Cale later used that specific tower as his "home base", and was featured heavily throughout the Twilight War trilogy. It was not mentioned that the place wasn't destroyed or broken up or anything. As the Sojourner basically used Time Stop and dealt with the Cyricists pretty much instantly, and then moved it, it was still fine when Cale & Co. "dealt" with the Sojourner and moved in. I was talking about the original, not the replacement.
What do I think is going to happen to the city?
Say hello to your new overlords: :coolcthul
All praise the Abolethic Sovereignty and your new neighbor in-the-sky Xxiphu!
I think giant Sushi may become popular in my realms.
The again, Catfish tastes awful.
Maybe these guys will take it over -
C'mon Bruce... you know you want him.... :P
If I am not mistaken the Mythallar of Sakkors is not only sentient, but it is psionic in nature.
-Yes.
If I am not mistaken the Mythallar of Sakkors is not only sentient, but it is psionic in nature.
What do I think is going to happen to the city?
Say hello to your new overlords: :coolcthul
All praise the Abolethic Sovereignty and your new neighbor in-the-sky Xxiphu!
Yeah. Another plot twist.
Xxiphu rhymes with seafood. :D
I think giant Sushi may become popular in my realms.
The again, Catfish tastes awful.
Maybe these guys will take it over -
C'mon Bruce... you know you want him.... :P
Its Sigmund the Sea Monster!
Anyway I have a feeling my players may be in for some seriously bad **** in the Sea of Fallen Stars involving a certain Lovecraft inspired floating city.
Not like that nasty 1e/2e/3e that forced you to use every single canon source (I still get nightmares about the time my copy of Old Empires held a gun to my head.)
It gives me the willys just thinking about it... thank goodness its over and we can now incorporate whatever we want. :D
Mythalars, and Nethrease Magic, are based entirely on the Weave...
But Shades use the Shadoweave, which makes me wonder how the heck they are effecting Sakkors Mythalar, not to mention their own (which they may have modified during their 'vacation').
However, once the Spellplague hit, everything and anything containing "potent Magic" got bloweded up. At the very least, Sakkors should have fallen from the sky (unlike the Shade Enclave, which may have been using a modified Mythalar, Sakkors did NOT).
Ergo, the Sakkors Enclave - which was nothing more then a giant pile of flying rubble - fell to the ground and was destroyed the moment the Weave 'winked-out', making it an even bigger pile of rubble.
And all of those nifty Nertherease 'toys' inside of it should have also exploded... just like they all did in Halruaa (making it a giant pile of rubble THREE TIMES OVER!)
So Sakkors doesn't really exist... and neither does this thread... you can wake-up now...
So Sakkors doesn't really exist...
-This is why these threads are great. Using established lore and logic, we've disproved the existence of something that exists. I need a pick-me-up, and that was a good one. :D
Exactly - you can't have it both ways. If it fell during Karsus' Folly, then it MUST fall during the Spellplague.
I still don't understand your logic. To be brutally honest, I don't know jack about this place and don't really care too. Outside of what is written in the FRCG and what I've typed here, that's all I know. The place is irrelevant in my Realms.
However, for the sake of this debate, I do not think we know why it fell during the Folly. The mythalar, while not sentient at the time, was still active. I believe its sentience is a recent (perhaps unexpected) occurrence. As I said, it is psionic in nature and thus should not have fallen during the Folly. If it fell as a result of the Folly this is a pre-4E lore mistake.
Regardless, your argument is better applied to the City of Shade. Shar lost control of the Shadow Weave, and thus Shade should have fallen. The fundamental way the Shadow Weave works was changed. This seemed to have zero impact upon Shade.
In my ideal version of the Realms, Shade falls from the sky and most of its survivors are eaten by the Spellplague. Sakkors, if it were to return at all, would be under control of the Abolethic Sovereignty. Who, by the way, make much better villains even though illithids are more interesting. ;)
Giant Catfish = Not so much
I'd use the Delkyr (sp?) from Eberron LONG before I ever used Aboleths.
The reality is that if I saw an Illithid in RL, I would $&!* myself; if I saw an Aboleth, I'd go get a bigger fishing pole. I find a plain ol' shark a lot scarier.
As for your logic, YES, Shade should also not exist. In addition, it was established early on (1e?) that the Weave = Life in Faerûn, ergo ALL life has ended and 4e FR does not exist.
It's just an illusion....
Also it was established early on (1e?) the the Weave = Life in Faerûn, ergo ALL life has ended and 4e FR does not exist.
-This is false. As KtM liked to say, "If the Weave broke, Abeir-Toril would not go BOOM!". Dead Magic Zones exist in absence of the Weave. Plants, animals, and such grow and survive in these areas. Thus, life continues to exist in Dead Magic Zone, areas where the Weave no longer exists.
Now, if we all make our Wisdom checks, we should be able to disbelieve 4e and it will all go away. :P
Illithids = Win
Giant Catfish = Not so much
I'd use the Delkyr (sp?) from Eberron LONG before I ever used Aboleths.
The reality is that if I saw an Illithid in RL, I would $&!* myself; if I saw an Aboleth, I'd go get a bigger fishing pole. I find a plain ol' shark a lot scarier.
I agree. Illithids are much more frightening. Aboleth's aren't all that bad, and were they not basically giant catfish they might be better... of course, this is true for lots of monsters that are hard to take seriously due to their appearance. Add to this that they are -flying- giant catfish and it just seems slightly silly.
However, if given the choice for a BBEG between Netheril and the Abolethic Sovereignty, the AS wins hands down - in every category. They are better villains, more interesting, and more frightening. You don't need to actually see them to be fighting them. Also, I think the concept of Xxiphu is both good and interesting.
On the bright side, the Aboleth are pretty easy to swap out for Illithid. It is mostly a cosmetic change.
As for your logic, YES, Shade should also not exist. In addition, it was established early on (1e?) that the Weave = Life in Faerûn, ergo ALL life has ended and 4e FR does not exist.
It's just an illusion....
As already pointed out that logic doesn't hold due to previous lore. The existence of dead magic zones, and the fact that life continued to not only exist but thrive within them disproved that.
4th Edition didn't even depart from the lore when they introduced different types of magic that wasn't powered by the Weave. There were many types of magic not powered by the Weave in previous editions. The fact that 4E magic is weaker than previous editions (which was powered by the Weave) also seems to mesh rather well with how non-Weave magic worked.
Where the transition from Weave to non-Weave magic fell short was how easily and quickly some made the transition. It should have been like starting over from the beginning. I also didn't like how magical things continued to work in the absence of the Weave. Of course, when the Weave was done away with previously those things continued as well... so it's not exactly contradicting anything.
That, too, was an illusion, and dead magic zones did not exist in 1e.
-Elaborated lore overruled that, then, as evidenced.
-As I am sure you can appreciate, it's all a lie told by Mystra's church, to make everyone think Mystra was awesome and great.
Basically, they are a race of ancient arcanists who fled into the Shadowfell (how original, right?), where they established a colony on a vast 'earthmote' floating in the mists (this would be located in the vicinity of Ravenloft's main 'continent', about the same size, but seperate). This piece of floating terrain was already home to at least one intelligent race (the Shdar-Kai), along with numerous fell beasts, whom they quickly subjugated. We are talking about a landmass here that is some 300 miles wide and 400 miles long (sort-of egg-shaped, but very roughly).
Fast-forward a couple thousand years and they return... with their floating Island! The entire Anauroch (or rather, my wasteland-equivalent) is now truly a "Land under Shadow".
The eternal darkness beneath the massive mote has bred all sorts of dark creatures, and Nightmares given-subsatnce roam these sunless lands. Only the very brave (or foolhardy) dare to enter this forlorn wasteland.
See, isn't that SO much better then some ol' Return of the archwizards?
Lore is like Ice-cream - even when you're served 'plain vanilla', you can cover it with all sorts of gooey syrups and crunchy toppings. :D
On the bright side, the Aboleth are pretty easy to swap out for Illithid. It is mostly a cosmetic change.
You know... that's so simple, its brilliant!
Just swap-out the Aboleths for Illithids and everything sounds just peachy - good call.
I may use something similar now in my homebrew now - a 'deep-sea' counter-point to the floating continent above.
-As I am sure you can appreciate, it's all a lie told by Mystra's church, to make everyone think Mystra was awesome and great.
I see you have studied my teachings, Grasshoopper.. you are most wise.
To be serious for a moment, the only reason why I went that route (I do NOT dislike Mystra and her chosen!) is because it really helps to cement a lot of inconsistencies together. Would I prefer those inconsistencies not exist? Of course I would... but they are here, and we have to fudge-stuff around them.
Wouldn't be the first time elves moved domains into other planes. Then, because Shadow was leeching their life force away, they forged the [i]gal-ralan[i] to kind of ground their souls, keep them from becoming shadows. My players liked that a lot, and made the Shadar-Kai "coming back into the world" an interesting plotline.
Now, as much as I like 4e, I gotta re-explain it a little. At least Shadar-Kai has the "fey" keyword.
Shadow Elves have an intersting history, as per the Ravenloft supplement The Shadow Rift. Considering the Realm of Mists is now in the Shadowfel, I thought that was a perfect fit for the Shadar-Kai... until they retconned it.
Still, its easy-enough to just ignore the new canon.
I like how you cannected them to Shar... makes me wonder why no Dark Elves worship her.
I used the Cormyr - Shadowdale - Anauroch modules, with some personalized changes, especially in the 1st one, and explored more the connection with the elves and the Shadar-Kai. Our cleric of Corellon almost wept [really, he played it that intensely] when he cried out to them, "Why would you give up the eternal day of Arvandor, to choose eternal Night? You fled to Shadow to escape Corellon's curse upon the Dark Elves, but you've chosen a much worse fate! If the Drow die redeemed [before the Lady Penitant books], I would say the coronal of the Seldarine accepts their souls--yes, even the drow!--to Arvandor. But you...? Oh what a price. Oh what a curse! What...have... you...done???"
circa -10001 D.R.
"Shadaarkyth, you spoke truly, from the oracle."
The Ilythiiri lord turned slowly, as if he did not want to redirect his attention just yet. His gaze held to his dark, mirror-like scrying pool longer than anything. Finally, with an inaudible sigh, he faced away from it, towards his guest, and he let the mantle of shadow around him fall away.
"Rahlan, my friend," he whispered, each syllable clear and concise, falling like chips of sharp stone in the otherwise silent chamber where he spent so many hours. He could not continue, not until he leaned back his head, allowing the soft silk of his hood to fall away, dropping down over his shoulders and between his shoulder blades, even as his long mane of hair was freed. There, above, the eclipse marked the favor of his Lady, as if she had taken him to her very bed.
"It is not I who spoke," he continued, enjoying the circular opening in the upper dome of this great chamber in his fortress. "She sees what they are doing. She hears their cries of vegeance, and their long, mournful prayers for salvation. She goes where we are not welcome, as they gather in...what did they say the Seldarine are calling it? 'Elven Court'."
"Yes, my lord, that is the summons, and the gathering."
"It is not a 'gathering'. It is a war council, self-righteous 'justicars', who because of some ancient or common beginning we share, presume that we, and they, are the same creature...Who presume to pass judgment upon us, we who have committed no crime. Our Lady knows loss--and is Lolth not intimately familiar with loss as well? So, Illythiir embraces her, just as our Darkness embraces us. Does Ghaunadaur not know sorrow? So, Illythiir embraces it, and our Darkness permits it."
Rahlan Sha'Kai, craftmage of Illythiir, felt the passion that stirred the deep words of his oldest friend. How much they both had grown, immersed in the great void, the sea of primordal power that was Shaar. From void, all things began. From silence, sounds came forth, and again, silence returned. "You know that they despise us for finding powers with which to consort. Lolth found Corellon's face turned from her, and only in exile did she find her kingdom. Before, she was at best, a plaything--not even a bound mate!"
"Yes, how terrible for her, that she never knew the bonds of true marital union." Shadaarkyth shimmered briefly as a wave of shadow-power flowed across his body, and he purred softly, for its touch was more intimate than any lover could offer. "Body and spirit joined... not merely one flesh to serve as fertile ground for the seed of the other. If our fate was to be the garden in which fickle whimsy sowed his seed, perchance to bear this fruit or that... I myself would rise up in 'rebellion' and 'betrayal' of Arvandor as well! If that be Arvandor, then let it be betrayed!"
"Shada, I beg you, impune not Arvandor, and risk drawing those eyes and ears to our purposes!"
The Illythiiri magelord seemed to draw himself up, and his eyes, already deeply shadowed, became black and glossy, like liquid obsidian. "Let. Them. Come. What else do we have to lose? What baleful curse gathers and is pronounced in Elven Court? I am the Dusk Lord of Athamault, but gently into night, I will not go! Not a night of their choosing, not when my Lady offers us refuge and solace."
"They will never take us, here, in the Iron Pit. Shada, it is perhaps our greatest, most secret, subterranean fortress!" Rahlan was exrtremely proud and confident--as he had every right to be--in the engineering and enchantments of the builders of Illythiir.
"Yes!" Shadaarkyth exclaimed, throwing his arms wide in a state approaching a sort of ecstacy. "If they cannot reach Athamault, they cannot breach Athamault! We have only a moment, a turn of the night before the daystar rises to mock the Night with its pitiful burning. I have stood in their halls, before their thrones, but the lords of Illythiir are mute to my grave warning. It comes! We must complete the rituals I have fashioned, with the circle of Shadow and the priests of Night... we must act to preserve all that we are! Our race, our ways, our people!"
Rahlan looked with sadness also, on the dearest friend he knew. Shadaarkyth saw with a breadth that few could match, and he was driven by a singular desire, to thwart the coming, terrible judgment of the Seldarine, which his diety, Shaar, had forwarned him of, in dreamns, nightmares, visions, and while nearly drunk on her shadowy might, in long, meditative spell-trances. What burden it was, to know of a doom to be laid upon your race, and to act, in near exile, against it. What daring, to stand against the gathering storm of the displeasure, of the whim, of the Seldarine, and to be defiant in the face of it!
"Athamault stands ready, at your word. The arcanely and the divinely empowered will fly to your call, Lord of Illythiir. As if your bridal chamber, Shadow beckons. Our dark Lady desires you with a passion and a hunger that are worthy of you. Old friend, great coronal, give the word, and the Iron Pit shall fly like a ship across a sea of night!"
I like how you cannected them to Shar... makes me wonder why no Dark Elves worship her.
I do to...maybe that is their little secret?
Isn't there a heresy floating around somewhere that believes Shar and Lolth are the same ? It may have been homebrew... I vaguely remember that.
I like how you cannected them to Shar... makes me wonder why no Dark Elves worship her.
-They do/did. In Ched Nasad, Zesstra Alrehand (The spelling is 100% wrong) was the leader of a small following who worshiped Shar. In Thay, there is/was a heresy that declared that Lolth and Shar were one, and worshiped both and either or. Neither deity liked that, neither granted them spells, and both did their best to kill all of those cultists.
that mind you was a tid bit even I found interesting, which book is it in??
-The part about Ched Nasad is in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark and Underdark, and the part about Thay in Lolth's entry in Demihuman Deities.
Also, to be all...elfy... they pronounced it with a double AA. 'Shaar'. Kinda a campaign inside joke, too... double vowels...
Did you know there was also a canon Korsus?
Don't know why I felt the need to mention that... it just sprang to mind when you said you were jealous of Karsus... :embarrass
There already is a 'Shaar', although its fairly easy to say that that region may have been one of her power-bases at one point in the past.
Did you know there was also a canon Korsus?
Don't know why I felt the need to mention that... it just sprang to mind when you said you were jealous of Karsus... :embarrass
I had a whole slew of quotes from multiple posts that was rather long... then I hit submit and it went to the 'down for maintmance'...
So, long story short:
*Sakkors was created with sentience, with the ability to empower psionics.
*Mythalars, like Mythals and many magic items, are self-sustaining after creation and do not require the Weave to function. They do, however, require magic to function (IE, they fail in a dead magic zone)
*During Karsus Folly, all of Toril was a dead magic zone until Mystra was 'reborn'. After which point things were fine again.
*During the ToT, she was unable to maintain the Weave and it frayed in places (wild magic zones), but it was never completely taken (IE no DMZ).
*During the Spellplague, the Weave died with her and wild magic erupted everywhere (IE spellplague w/o dead magic). This wouldn't effect permanent magical effects (IE Mythals, Mythalars & many items)
*Spellplague, like wild magic, is unpredictable, chaotic, random and diverse. Nothing that touched or was touched by it would be effected in the same manner (IE different things happening in different areas and different things happening to different thing in the same area... or even different things happening to the same things in the same area... you know, unperdictable... wild... yeah...)
*Regardless, flying cities fell the first time due to dead magic. They didn't fall during the Spellplague because no one stopped the flow of magic, it burst from the Weave and went wild.
**Lastly, it is your game, do what you will. That said, nothing about what happened is against canon or otherwise.**
As for magic lately... there is a disagreement between the current lore saying that magic items have built in support for the standard source of magic and don't need to be adapted to things, vs. the fall of Netheril because all magic items drew from the Weave.
Perhaps one could say that when Mystryl commited suicide, she included a super-spell that would disrupt the flow of magic in general. Thus proving as I've always said, that Mystryl was trying to destroy the world with her craziness!!! She just needed to chill until Karsus' spell wore off.
The Netherease had their Mythallars as a power-source, and the Drow had the Faerzress Nodes.
When taken out of the field of the power-source, the items become inert. I suppose it is possible to re-atturne them to a different source - such was never specified for psuedo-magical items (one of my favorite pieces of old lore, that seems to have been completely ignored).
Which is why I can't understand why so many designers write adventures based around Netherease magical Items. Whats the point of finding them? They don't work... and thats canon. ;)
When taken out of the field of the power-source, the items become inert. I suppose it is possible to re-atturne them to a different source - such was never specified for psuedo-magical items (one of my favorite pieces of old lore, that seems to have been completely ignored).
-When taken out of the radius of a Faerzress, Drowcraft magic items continue working, whereas Netherese Pseudomagical weapons wouldn't.
Anyhow, most Netherease Items should not work outside of an enclave - especially those Scepters they are so famous for.
Which now makes me wonder if Netherese items would work in Skullport.
Anyhow, most Netherease Items should not work outside of an enclave - especially those Scepters they are so famous for.
-Only pseudomagical items wouldn't have worked outside the range of a mythallar. Normally enchanted items would work fine. Not all Netherese magical items would have been pseudomagical. More or less, most minor things would have been, I am sure, because it's the equivalent of mass production. Those items aren't the things that treasure hunters and such today look for, in ruins, because they'd be worthless today (if they even survive the passage of time).
A DM could say that any item found is one of those 'rare' ones (some arcanists lived outside of enclaves with mythallars), or could say it is an ancient Netherease item that was created before Mythallars tech came into fashion.
However, it is implicit in source that nearly all magical items found in a ruined enclave will be non-functional away from a mythallar power-source.
Does Larloch have a funtional Mythallar?
I would assume so, since he likes to collect Netherease items.
Could also be why he mostly stays home...
However, their downfall is attributed mostly to their dependence upon their mythallars, and the Netheril material makes it quite clear that by the time of the fall, ne3arly all magical items were psuedo-magical in nature.
-Their downfall came from...their literal fall down. When mythallars "debuted", and enclaves began flying, and the production of magical items became dirt cheap through powering them through the mythallar, Netheril entered into it's 'Silver' and 'Golden' Age. The 'Shadowed Age' came about because the pieces that would eventually cause Netheril to fall- the birth of Karsus, and the emergence of the Phaerimm- began appearing. As Netheril: Empire of Magic says, "...brought the first inklings of what
was to befall the Netherese- it was a time when the shadows of
doom crept around the Netherese landscape."
-The case can be made that if they weren't using mythallar to fly, Netherese civilization would have survived, and it is a valid, debatable point, but seems a whole different argument from what you're saying. Nothing in Netheril: Empire of Magic says that mythallars powering pseudomagical items contributed to the fall of Netheril, in that they brought stagnation, laziness, and so on.
A DM could say that any item found is one of those 'rare' ones (some arcanists lived outside of enclaves with mythallars), or could say it is an ancient Netherease item that was created before Mythallars tech came into fashion.
However, it is implicit in source that nearly all magical items found in a ruined enclave will be non-functional away from a mythallar power-source.
-All correct. To say that all Netherese items were of pseudomagical make would be incorrect, though. That the Netherese Blast Scepters have stats in LEoF, that seems to demonstrate that they were "normal" magic items, and not pseudomagical items, and thus would work today, and out of the range of a mythallar, back in the day.
Does Larloch have a funtional Mythallar?
I would assume so, since he likes to collect Netherease items.
Could also be why he mostly stays home...
-I would say no. Warlock Crypt was Orbedal, a flying Netherese enclave, and it's on the ground now, just like all of the other enclaves that had mythallars that failed them, and fell from the sky. Because we don't know, plenty of hypothesizes can be made that explain why it's on the ground, and how it can have a mythallar that is still in tact, but until more facts make themselves clear, it's most likely to assume it's mythallar was destroyed as well, prompting it to fall.
I didn't want to go into 'lecture mode', but you have the right of it there - the mythallars and the ease of use they presented to Netherease culture lead to the flying enclave which in turn lead to their demise.
Mythallars were NOT originally designed to make cities fly - they were originally designed to power psuedo-magical items.
Ergo, the desire for psuedo-magical tech in every enclave lead to their being a mythallar in ever enclave, including those that did not fly (those undersea ones, Sargauth, etc...). If Ioulum did not invent psuedo-magical technology, flying enclaves would not have existed.
;)
I forgot about that little fact.