Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 The_High_Blademage Jun 09, 2010 20:21:40	As the Title says, I can't clearly tell the defferce between the two planes. Well, yeah, in both planes there are acid lakes, streams of lava and they have similar structure: Layers that you can supposedly travel by foot (jump from one layer to the other) Well when evil mortals die the go to hell that means they go to the Nine hells or to the Abyss??? Demons want mortal souls so do devils...... What's the defferense??? Can common folk tell the difference??? I mean besides "Oh, do you see these horns? That's a balor. That is an other creature that that over there... That one is a devil. A pit devil actually!" (:P) Souldn't common folks just call all these creatures deamons???? I just started the SUPERNATURAL series and I liked the idea. Possed mortals that have superpowers.... Now sould they be demons or Devils???? Could deamons work with or for devils and vice versa?????
#2 sfdragon Jun 09, 2010 21:26:03	I thought the anima beyond fantasy looed pretty good..... anyway, is there a difference, well yes and no. its either hot or cold, and they all have soul sucking creatures there at both places.
#3 LordManshoon Jun 09, 2010 23:02:47	Well when evil mortals die the go to hell that means they go to the Nine hells or to the Abyss??? Actually, evil mortals who have a patron go to the domain of that patron, after spending a brief time in the Fugue Plane, the plane of death. Assuming there's no interference, the soul will be whisked away to its intended destination by a messenger/servant of its patron deity or greater entity (Archfey, Primal Spirit, etc.) While waiting in the Fugue Plane, devils (in an agreement with Kelemvor) are allowed to attempt to woo souls who are in doubt, those souls who believe they may not have made the wisest choice in patron (basically, those souls who worshipped a fiend like Lolth or Shar and who are now trying to back out of the deal); they have until the divine servitor comes to collect the homeward-bound spirits. Devils take advantage of these doubting souls and try to convince them to pledge themselves to an Archdevil. In exchange for their loyalty, the Archdevil will make sure no one else lays a finger on them. I don't recall how successful this practice has been, but given that devils are patient buggers, I don't think they would've called it quits. Demons, meanwhile, try a more direct tactic - raid the Fugue Plane and abduct souls, which, unsurprisingly, annoys Kelemvor and Jergal to no end. Part of the devil's agreement with Kel is that they defend the plane against the demons during a raid, which the devils enjoy. To be fair, some people do choose Archdevils or Demon Lords as patrons; their souls will go to Baator or the Abyss, evil or not. Demons want mortal souls so do devils...... What's the defferense??? Both employ souls as slaves, to serve with unflinching loyalty. Demons like to use souls for sustenance, or to torment for their own personal amusement. Devils like to use souls as soldiers; whereas almost all souls who end up in the Abyss are ****ed, souls who go to Baator (and who show some measure of talent in war, magic, strategy, etc.) can rise through the ranks if they help a devil obtain success and power. Of course, the reverse is also true (devils torment souls, demons use souls as troops), but it's more common the other way.  Can common folk tell the difference??? I mean besides "Oh, do you see these horns? That's a balor. That is an other creature that that over there... That one is a devil. A pit devil actually!" (:P) Souldn't common folks just call all these creatures deamons???? The common person would not recognize the difference. To a simple man or woman in a small town or on a farm, a horned, winged fiend with blazing eyes and claws is terrifying; any name will do, considering how there's a good chance that a commoner who encounters such a creature won't have to worry about telling the difference for long. A common man could easily mistake devils for demons and vice-versa, but even if it's a challenge to physically differentiate a demon from a devil, the nature of the creatures is different. If the being in question conjures a magical contract and starts asking questions about the person's ideas for the future, even a commoner probably has heard tales of such a thing being the knack of devils. If the creature is a howling engine of fury which is tearing apart everything in sight with reckless abandon, the tales would bring up the term "demon". I just started the SUPERNATURAL series and I liked the idea. Possed mortals that have superpowers.... Now sould they be demons or Devils???? Could deamons work with or for devils and vice versa????? I'm not familiar with the series, so I can't comment on which is more similar. As for demons and devils working together, it's not going to happen (unless some major force of good is simultaneously threatening both, but even that is stretching it far). Demons are chaotic and brutal; only the more powerful ones rely on some measure of strategy and thorough-thinking, whereas most just prefer to overwhelm and slaughter. Devils don't use brute force if possible. They prefer to think things out from every angle, and weave layers of intrigue around their intended target. Their traps are set well before the target is engaged, and if you're unlucky enough to meet a devil, odds are you're already trapped.
#4 Jorunhast Jun 09, 2010 23:19:28	As the Title says, I can't clearly tell the defferce between the two planes. Nor can the new batch of designers, so you're not alone in this. Well when evil mortals die the go to hell that means they go to the Nine hells or to the Abyss???  Demons want mortal souls so do devils...... What's the defferense??? As I understand things, evil souls don't usually go to "Hell" or the Abyss unless they've actively worshiped a demon or a devil.  Making a pact with either would certainly get one there, but the vast majority of evil souls would instead go to the evil deity that they worshipped in life (Shar, Bane, Beshaba, Cyric, Talos {now Gruumsh}, Lolth, Tiamat, etc) and spend their afterlife there.  A few of those deities are served by demons and devils, of course, and certain evil deities like Lolth make their home in the Abyss, but the souls technically just go to the deity that they worshipped. Can common folk tell the difference??? I mean besides "Oh, do you see these horns? That's a balor. That is an other creature that that over there... That one is a devil. A pit devil actually!" (:P) Souldn't common folks just call all these creatures deamons???? Perhaps not, but devils are "known" to be more tricksy, charming and likely to engage in trying to corrupt a person.  Demons are more likely just to tear one apart.  Devils are all about getting people to make pacts that set them on the road to corruption, with the ultimate goal of capturing souls away for themselves.  Demons, I don't see them as being all that interested in capturing souls... but they would try to hang out around the wall of the faithless and capture any souls that might beg out to them (with the goal of torturing those souls for eternity in the Abyss). Souls may also be traded by evil deities and lesser evil powers.  Lolth might tire of common drow souls and give them to her Yochlol pets, for example.  This is perhaps the most common way for souls to be in the possession of demons and devils, although devils would be more interested in corrupting the person while alive. I just started the SUPERNATURAL series and I liked the idea. Possed mortals that have superpowers.... Now sould they be demons or Devils???? Could deamons work with or for devils and vice versa????? Demons are just bloodthirsty and merciless, I'd say, and wouldn't want to work with anyone.  Devils might be intrigued by controlling lesser demons, but they would know better than any mortal how dangerous such a thing could become.  The entities in Supernatural are more like FR devils than demons, IMO.
#5 vorghyrn Jun 09, 2010 23:24:05	there are some differences : Abysse are located in the elemental chaos while hell are in the astral sea (4th edition). in 4th edition Asmode is a god and in other edition devil are closer to gods (some of them are fallen angels) and demon are closer to elemental (one theory is that they are elemental corrupted by the Abyss) devil are lawful evil (3th edition) or evil (4th edition) where demon are chaotic evil so devil want to get dominion over the worlds and the planes where demon want to destroy everything of course common people won't know the difference except if they have special lore about devil and/or demon (and in that case, they are not "common people")
#6 The_Silversword Jun 09, 2010 23:42:23	One of the fundamental differences, regardless of the fact that they did away with Lawful Evil, is that the Nine Hells is a place of rigid authority, whereas the Abyss is far more chaotic.
#7 The_High_Blademage Jun 09, 2010 23:50:12	And then WHY THE ..... HELL ..... IS KELEMVOR CALLED JUDGE OF THE DEAD????? What does he do??? Just seperating the faithfull from the nonefaithfull???? If we have, let's say, an Eladrin who worships Corellon (Many in Ed Greenwood's novels: Noble Houses that murderd and stuff). But he/she is powerhungry ends up evil. What happens??? He goes in Arvandor and we all are happy??? He goes in an Arvandor's Hell???? He is cast out from Arvandor???? Don't evil creatures have punishment in the afterlife? I mean there must be a catch somewhere..... I recall from the War of the spider Queen Novel that the "Chosen ones" of Lolth and their servants where all killed exept one. Also in a FR videogame about god BAHL I saw some cinematics and his OWN chosen ended in the Nine hells. I suppose the same apllies to other evil gods too: they promise that SOME of their worshipers will be rewarded in the afterlife and the rest will be "slaves for bargain" or Tools for murder/experimentation etc. I can't imagine Shar or Bane saying: "oh, dear worshiper. You rocked in your life. You followed my biding now rest in peace. That's all I wanted from you. Be my guest"
#8 Jorunhast Jun 10, 2010 0:08:03	And then WHY THE ..... HELL ..... IS KELEMVOR CALLED JUDGE OF THE DEAD????? What does he do??? He maintains the afterlife contracts that are part of the grand design. Just seperating the faithfull from the nonefaithfull???? That is part of his duty but not all. He sorts the faithful such that it is easier for divine agents of deities to collect their faithful souls.  He allows demons and devils "one last chance" to trick a soul away from their evil deity.  He puts the faithless and the false into the Wall of the Faithless.  Maintaining the sorting of dead souls such that all divine agents (both good and evil), and demons and devils, all hang out without erupting into chaos and soul-stealing, is a pretty gigantic job.  He doesn't "judge" the soul in the sense that he personally decides if they get reward or punishment, but he judges which divine agents (or demons/devils) can have access to that soul after death.  For example, if a soul faithfully worshipped Cyric in life and was very effective at being evil, only Cyric (and to a lesser degree, perhaps demons/devils) would be allowed to take that soul from the Fugue Plain.  Amaunator, as a good deity, has absolutely no access to that soul, and it might end up being rewarded by Cyric for a lifetime of faithful service. If we have, let's say, an Eladrin who worships Corellon (Many in Ed Greenwood's novels: Noble Houses that murderd and stuff). But he/she is powerhungry ends up evil. What happens??? He goes in Arvandor and we all are happy??? He goes in an Arvandor's Hell???? He is cast out from Arvandor??? Corellon would reject that soul's plea for a rewarding afterlife in Arvandor.  Such a soul might be recruited by a demon or devil, or be thrown into the wall of the faithless (technically, he would count as "False") if the soul rejected demons and devils. Don't evil creatures have punishment in the afterlife? I mean there must be a catch somewhere..... I recall from the War of the spider Queen Novel that the "Chosen ones" of Lolth and their servants where all killed exept one. Being the servant of any evil deity would potentially have rewards in the afterlife, if they were effective in their evil career.  If they failed their deity but remained faithful, they'd either be punished or find themselves on the bottom rung of the ladder on their deity's plane.  But remember that chaotic/evil deities are often angry regardless of failure, and punish their servants anyway.  Not being effective in the afterlife can result in that soul being traded to another evil diety, or a demon or devil. Remember that this is a polytheistic society.  Many of the assumptions of modern western civilization (in particular, Chrisitianity's depiction of heaven and hell, reward and punishment as classically described in the afterlife) don't fit the Realms well.
#9 The_Silversword Jun 10, 2010 0:24:45	In the Realms when some dies, generaly they go to the Fugue Plane (Kelemvor's Domain). Sometimes if a soul is particularly powerful or have an uncompleted quest or whatnot they can remain on the Mortal Plane as a ghost, but for the most part they all go to the Fugue Plane, from there the faithful are picked up by agents of their gods if deemed worthy. The rest await judgement from Kelemvor. Demons or devils sometimes snag a few souls here and there at this point before the judging process. The remaining souls are then given audience with Kelemvor who judges them, he has the help of a magic mirror that shows ones "true reflection". From there Kelemvor can decide to keep the soul on in his domain, essentialy giving the soul a job, or possibly judging the soul Faithless, or False and put into the Wall of the Faithless. Its also possible that Kelemvor might contact a souls chosen diety and be like you know this guy wasnt so bad, you should take him. Thats basically the jist of it. There might be other circumstances that apply as well, for instance someone giving their soul to Shadow might end end up in the Shadowfell, Or a Warlock's patron might claim their soul upon death, bypassing the Fugue Plane entirely.
#10 vorghyrn Jun 10, 2010 0:27:18	i think Bane is a good example. He is maintaining armies on his dominion so when worshipper die, they can of course enter those armies, as servants for the lesser being or warrior for those who shows some war skills. As Bane armies are always in action, he should recruite every soul of beliver that die. Bane is not an easy master, as may be his minions so being a warrior or a servant may not be an easy afterlife... In the case of Corellon adept that do bad things (i mean murder, betrayal, torture ...) let's consider this : if he does bad thing and he can't still worship faithfully Corellon (excepte deep madness with split of personality). So he will finish in the Wall. Most probably he will pretend to worship Corellon and worship in secret Shar or Lolth and when dying (at the hand of PCs who discovered the plot ;) ) his true patron will claim his soul.
#11 The_High_Blademage Jun 10, 2010 2:50:19	Nice!!! Well I thank Tymora that I do not live (well actually die) in FR! Choosing between Wall of the Faithess torture and Devil/deamon torture can be tricky :P 1 finall quession 'bout afterlife:  If a mortal was named Faithless or False and ends up in THE wall or devil/deamon OR if he goes to his god and he desides to punish him. Can the mortal somehow be saved from his eternal martyrdom, I mean if he was allready sent there..... (like when elminster was saved from the Nine hells/abyss -can remember- by the super-awesome-epic-majestic-powerpuff.... Mystra)
#12 vorghyrn Jun 10, 2010 3:08:32	from the wall, i don't think so (except meta epic quest) from being punished (or tortured) by demon/angry god it seem more feasable (quest like in greek mythology). if i remember correctly, Elminster was not beening punished after death but trapped alive in the nine hells, which is different from dying and become slave of a devil
#13 Jorunhast Jun 10, 2010 7:48:12	Nice!!! Well I thank Tymora that I do not live (well actually die) in FR! Choosing between Wall of the Faithess torture and Devil/deamon torture can be tricky :P 1 finall quession 'bout afterlife:  If a mortal was named Faithless or False and ends up in THE wall or devil/deamon OR if he goes to his god and he desides to punish him. Can the mortal somehow be saved from his eternal martyrdom, I mean if he was allready sent there..... (like when elminster was saved from the Nine hells/abyss -can remember- by the super-awesome-epic-majestic-powerpuff.... Mystra) Once a soul is "sorted" that's it, they're done.  Their soul can respond to the magic of a "raise dead" or "resurrection" spell, and be called back into life, but if they are "owned" by a demon, devil, or evil deity it might cause the soul to be followed back by a lesser demon or devil who tries to reclaim it.  At least, that's what I would do as a DM.  If they live and then die again, they are re-sorted. If a soul is in the Wall of the Faithless, you'd have to overcome the magic that holds them there. But if there's no outside help, they're stuck where they are, forever.