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No Red Wizards?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
vebrandsson
Jan 19, 2009 11:13:35 The only dissapointment I found in the Forgotten Reams Players Guide was the lack of a Red Wizard Paragon path. Yes I know the Red Wizards aren't exactly the nicest of people but still back in 2e they had a few interesting spells that made being one worth it. Does anyone already have a homebrew Red Wizard paragon path and if so can you give me a link please. Oh and on a quick note, what happened to the Seven Sisters and the Harpers, I can't find any mention of them in either 4e FR tome.
#2
MattDroz
Jan 19, 2009 13:50:19 Are the Red Wizards still around after Szass Tam turned Thay into New Karrnath?
#3
vebrandsson
Jan 19, 2009 15:40:51 According to the "Rose Keep" article put out in dragon recently the red wizards are still alive and kicking. Tam hasn't even turned them into undead as one might expect.
#4
MattDroz
Jan 19, 2009 15:59:48 Hmmm... Tam's getting sloppy in his old age. :P
#5
Aegeri
Jan 19, 2009 16:33:58
According to the "Rose Keep" article put out in dragon recently the red wizards are still alive and kicking. Tam hasn't even turned them into undead as one might expect.

They are more a loose collaboration of individuals who keep some of the more mercantile aspects of the former Red Wizards alive. There are two possibilities however, given the 4Es ambiguous description of them:

1) They are just a group calling themselves Red Wizards, due to being formerly associated with the group in the past and don't have much to do with Thay anymore.

2) Going with the more sinister potential undercurrent, they still are loyal to Thay and have been insidiously infiltrating places for Szass Tam. He's currently looking for another land to cast his ritual to ascend "beyond Divinity" (which can only mean trouble) and so Thay is pretty much on par with Netheril in terms of large angry Empires trying to kill everyone. It's just Thay doesn't suck ;)

It's pretty open for either interpretation.

Edit: I feel like I could make a Red Wizard Paragon Path by now (I understand 4Es mechanics relatively well) if you don't want to do it. It would be useful to offer some of my players such a class as well, especially as I'm running a game near Thay and around areas where Thayan influence would be present.
#6
kerym_ammath
Jan 19, 2009 16:47:04 Or...you could have them secretly continue on the path they have always been, on. The road to conquest and power, unfortunately they have suffered a "minor" setback, and need to take care of several former members first. Just because they want to see Szass Tam go down in flames, does not mean they have to be "good". Fun times.
#7
zanan
Jan 19, 2009 18:02:30 Just be patient. Rest assured, all the cool things of the Realms will see some sort of 4E conversion in due course ...
#8
rinonalyrna_fathomlin
Jan 19, 2009 21:29:47
According to the "Rose Keep" article put out in dragon recently the red wizards are still alive and kicking. Tam hasn't even turned them into undead as one might expect.

Right, but note that they are different in flavor from what they once were (not saying that's good or bad, mind, that's just what it is).
#9
Diffan
Jan 21, 2009 7:49:50
Edit: I feel like I could make a Red Wizard Paragon Path by now (I understand 4Es mechanics relatively well) if you don't want to do it. It would be useful to offer some of my players such a class as well, especially as I'm running a game near Thay and around areas where Thayan influence would be present.

The problem I see with converting the old Red Wizard class is that it's purpose was very specific to specialized schools and circle magic. No more schools means its harder to find a 4e's Red Wizard niche. I would very much like to see a drawn up version though.
#10
Bluenose
Jan 21, 2009 8:02:57
The problem I see with converting the old Red Wizard class is that it's purpose was very specific to specialized schools and circle magic. No more schools means its harder to find a 4e's Red Wizard niche. I would very much like to see a drawn up version though.

Specialised schools should be solvable, since there were Red Wizards in 1st edition AD&D when the only specialist was the Illusionist and everyone else was just a Magic User. I think it might need a few more spells than currently availble, though.

As for Circle Magic, I could see that being a ritual of sorts to create the circle, with it then granting bonuses to attack or damage rolls. Perhaps combine the Int bonus of all participating casters for damage purposes, with the attack bonus being equal to the attack bonus of the lead character plus one for every participant. That would make large circles very deadly both in making spells succeed and n doing damage.
#11
vebrandsson
Jan 21, 2009 8:38:15
As for Circle Magic, I could see that being a ritual of sorts to create the circle, with it then granting bonuses to attack or damage rolls.

The info on 4e circle magic is in the FR campaign guide, so you don't have to do anything on that.
#12
lord_karsus
Jan 21, 2009 10:09:55
1) They are just a group calling themselves Red Wizards, due to being formerly associated with the group in the past and don't have much to do with Thay anymore.

-This is most likely.
#13
markustay63
Jan 21, 2009 12:11:06 Aside from agreeing with the above, I'd also like to address this -
Just be patient. Rest assured, all the cool things of the Realms will see some sort of 4E conversion in due course ...

Perhaps... but then again, perhaps not.

The game has 'evolved' back into a more simpler form, and 'bad guys' are enemies, and PCs are 'heroes'.

In 3rd edition, NPCs got the same treatment as PCs, which meant anything an NPC can do or become a PC could too (which was complete departure from earlier editions).

If 'Red Wizards' are meant to be threat - and it seems as if they are - they may never get much more then a 'Monster Statblock' in 4e.

I don't know either way, and I'm sure if they thought there was money to be made from such a thing, we'd see a Paragon Path or something, but it just seems to me rather pointless to create a class for something that is meant to be an encounter and little else.
#14
Diffan
Jan 22, 2009 7:29:00
Aside from agreeing with the above, there is also this -
Perhaps... but then again, perhaps not.

The game has 'evolved' back into a more simpler form, and 'bad guys' are enemies, and PCs are 'heroes'.

In 3rd edition, NPCs got the same treatment as PCs, which meant anything an NPC can do or become a PC could too (which was complete departrure from earlier editions).

If 'Red Wizards' are meant to be threat - and it seems as if they are - they may never get much more then a 'Monster Statblock' in 4e.

I don't know either way, and I'm sure if they thought there was money to be made from such a thing, we'd see a Paragon Path or something, but it just seems to me rather pointless to create a class for something that is meant to be an encounter and little else.

When it comes to the "official" stuff, I'm pretty sure we're all S.O.L. because there isn't plans for more FR stuff in the near future. It may come in a DDI article but that's something I'm not going to pay for. Thus, we (the community) could/should create the things the designers will not. I've already created some "evil" Paragon Paths like the Shadow Adepts, Justice of Weald and Woe, and Thayan Knight and believe they could all be fun paths to take in a 4e game.
#15
lord_karsus
Jan 23, 2009 10:34:36 -No future stuff, and the fact that evil is kinda being shunned, since you shouldn't be evil.
#16
markustay63
Jan 23, 2009 15:38:22 I do sort of like the idea of each surviving Enclave being like a miniature 'Tharch', and the rulers all like 'little Tharchions'.

Its very different... a country without a land to call their own. Very fantasy... very cool...

A Government with no one to rule...
#17
Aegeri
Jan 24, 2009 17:27:00
-No future stuff, and the fact that evil is kinda being shunned, since you shouldn't be evil.

As I mentioned in a previous discussion, running evil campaigns has a host of problems and issues that need to be addressed: all of these have nothing to do with the system IMO and lie directly at the table the game is being played. It really requires specific players to work well, who are going to have a certain mindset about it and will work heavily with their DM to ensure the game works out. 4E makes the same "shouldn't be" evil assumption that 3rd edition does (or 2nd), albeit without examples of potentially evil prestige classes (Blackguard comes to mind as a notable absence). The evil games of DnD I've ran or played in have been in 2E and 3E and it matters not a bit which edition you use: it's the people at the table.

Personally, I am fine with this. I would rather bookspace go to things I will use regularly rather than things easily created myself for the few times it's ever going to be relevant. Minding, the Doomguard PP in Manual of the Planes comes very close to a sort of archetype evil character in many ways. In fact, many of the Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies in the game already are fairly neutral on alignment anyway, so would function equally well as good or evil (Sword Coast Corsair, Doomguard, Gatecrasher etc). Only a handful are specifically "good" in my mind (Knight of Celestia and Morninglord stand out immediately). So it's not as if "evil" campaigns literally have to draw everything from scratch because there is nothing usable.

Given the relative neutrality of the Red Wizards in the FRCG though, it would probably be interesting to see what a RW Paragon Path in 4th would look like. Although I still have my suspicions they are quietly evil and still serving Szass Tam. At least that makes them interesting to use as potential "Are they or aren't they" villains. Unlike a certain obnoxiously over-present God...
#18
lord_karsus
Jan 24, 2009 20:06:14
As I mentioned in a previous discussion, running evil campaigns has a host of problems and issues that need to be addressed: all of these have nothing to do with the system IMO and lie directly at the table the game is being played. It really requires specific players to work well, who are going to have a certain mindset about it and will work heavily with their DM to ensure the game works out. 4E makes the same "shouldn't be" evil assumption that 3rd edition does (or 2nd), albeit without examples of potentially evil prestige classes (Blackguard comes to mind as a notable absence). The evil games of DnD I've ran or played in have been in 2E and 3E and it matters not a bit which edition you use: it's the people at the table.

Personally, I am fine with this. I would rather bookspace go to things I will use regularly rather than things easily created myself for the few times it's ever going to be relevant. Minding, the Doomguard PP in Manual of the Planes comes very close to a sort of archetype evil character in many ways. In fact, many of the Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies in the game already are fairly neutral on alignment anyway, so would function equally well as good or evil (Sword Coast Corsair, Doomguard, Gatecrasher etc). Only a handful are specifically "good" in my mind (Knight of Celestia and Morninglord stand out immediately). So it's not as if "evil" campaigns literally have to draw everything from scratch because there is nothing usable.

-All of which is true...but doesn't have much to do with, or rather, is only tangential to what I was alluding to, that we have the designers telling us that, for the time being, "being good" is the primary focus in the books, and as such, PPs/EDs for "bad guys", or monster stats for "good guys" and things like this are on the back burner, for the time being.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 vebrandsson Jan 19, 2009 11:13:35	The only dissapointment I found in the Forgotten Reams Players Guide was the lack of a Red Wizard Paragon path. Yes I know the Red Wizards aren't exactly the nicest of people but still back in 2e they had a few interesting spells that made being one worth it. Does anyone already have a homebrew Red Wizard paragon path and if so can you give me a link please. Oh and on a quick note, what happened to the Seven Sisters and the Harpers, I can't find any mention of them in either 4e FR tome.
#2 MattDroz Jan 19, 2009 13:50:19	Are the Red Wizards still around after Szass Tam turned Thay into New Karrnath?
#3 vebrandsson Jan 19, 2009 15:40:51	According to the "Rose Keep" article put out in dragon recently the red wizards are still alive and kicking. Tam hasn't even turned them into undead as one might expect.
#4 MattDroz Jan 19, 2009 15:59:48	Hmmm... Tam's getting sloppy in his old age. :P
#5 Aegeri Jan 19, 2009 16:33:58	According to the "Rose Keep" article put out in dragon recently the red wizards are still alive and kicking. Tam hasn't even turned them into undead as one might expect. They are more a loose collaboration of individuals who keep some of the more mercantile aspects of the former Red Wizards alive. There are two possibilities however, given the 4Es ambiguous description of them: 1) They are just a group calling themselves Red Wizards, due to being formerly associated with the group in the past and don't have much to do with Thay anymore. 2) Going with the more sinister potential undercurrent, they still are loyal to Thay and have been insidiously infiltrating places for Szass Tam. He's currently looking for another land to cast his ritual to ascend "beyond Divinity" (which can only mean trouble) and so Thay is pretty much on par with Netheril in terms of large angry Empires trying to kill everyone. It's just Thay doesn't suck ;) It's pretty open for either interpretation. Edit: I feel like I could make a Red Wizard Paragon Path by now (I understand 4Es mechanics relatively well) if you don't want to do it. It would be useful to offer some of my players such a class as well, especially as I'm running a game near Thay and around areas where Thayan influence would be present.
#6 kerym_ammath Jan 19, 2009 16:47:04	Or...you could have them secretly continue on the path they have always been, on. The road to conquest and power, unfortunately they have suffered a "minor" setback, and need to take care of several former members first. Just because they want to see Szass Tam go down in flames, does not mean they have to be "good". Fun times.
#7 zanan Jan 19, 2009 18:02:30	Just be patient. Rest assured, all the cool things of the Realms will see some sort of 4E conversion in due course ...
#8 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Jan 19, 2009 21:29:47	According to the "Rose Keep" article put out in dragon recently the red wizards are still alive and kicking. Tam hasn't even turned them into undead as one might expect. Right, but note that they are different in flavor from what they once were (not saying that's good or bad, mind, that's just what it is).
#9 Diffan Jan 21, 2009 7:49:50	Edit: I feel like I could make a Red Wizard Paragon Path by now (I understand 4Es mechanics relatively well) if you don't want to do it. It would be useful to offer some of my players such a class as well, especially as I'm running a game near Thay and around areas where Thayan influence would be present. The problem I see with converting the old Red Wizard class is that it's purpose was very specific to specialized schools and circle magic. No more schools means its harder to find a 4e's Red Wizard niche. I would very much like to see a drawn up version though.
#10 Bluenose Jan 21, 2009 8:02:57	The problem I see with converting the old Red Wizard class is that it's purpose was very specific to specialized schools and circle magic. No more schools means its harder to find a 4e's Red Wizard niche. I would very much like to see a drawn up version though. Specialised schools should be solvable, since there were Red Wizards in 1st edition AD&D when the only specialist was the Illusionist and everyone else was just a Magic User. I think it might need a few more spells than currently availble, though. As for Circle Magic, I could see that being a ritual of sorts to create the circle, with it then granting bonuses to attack or damage rolls. Perhaps combine the Int bonus of all participating casters for damage purposes, with the attack bonus being equal to the attack bonus of the lead character plus one for every participant. That would make large circles very deadly both in making spells succeed and n doing damage.
#11 vebrandsson Jan 21, 2009 8:38:15	As for Circle Magic, I could see that being a ritual of sorts to create the circle, with it then granting bonuses to attack or damage rolls. The info on 4e circle magic is in the FR campaign guide, so you don't have to do anything on that.
#12 lord_karsus Jan 21, 2009 10:09:55	1) They are just a group calling themselves Red Wizards, due to being formerly associated with the group in the past and don't have much to do with Thay anymore. -This is most likely.
#13 markustay63 Jan 21, 2009 12:11:06	Aside from agreeing with the above, I'd also like to address this - Just be patient. Rest assured, all the cool things of the Realms will see some sort of 4E conversion in due course ... Perhaps... but then again, perhaps not. The game has 'evolved' back into a more simpler form, and 'bad guys' are enemies, and PCs are 'heroes'. In 3rd edition, NPCs got the same treatment as PCs, which meant anything an NPC can do or become a PC could too (which was complete departure from earlier editions). If 'Red Wizards' are meant to be threat - and it seems as if they are - they may never get much more then a 'Monster Statblock' in 4e. I don't know either way, and I'm sure if they thought there was money to be made from such a thing, we'd see a Paragon Path or something, but it just seems to me rather pointless to create a class for something that is meant to be an encounter and little else.
#14 Diffan Jan 22, 2009 7:29:00	Aside from agreeing with the above, there is also this - Perhaps... but then again, perhaps not. The game has 'evolved' back into a more simpler form, and 'bad guys' are enemies, and PCs are 'heroes'. In 3rd edition, NPCs got the same treatment as PCs, which meant anything an NPC can do or become a PC could too (which was complete departrure from earlier editions). If 'Red Wizards' are meant to be threat - and it seems as if they are - they may never get much more then a 'Monster Statblock' in 4e. I don't know either way, and I'm sure if they thought there was money to be made from such a thing, we'd see a Paragon Path or something, but it just seems to me rather pointless to create a class for something that is meant to be an encounter and little else. When it comes to the "official" stuff, I'm pretty sure we're all S.O.L. because there isn't plans for more FR stuff in the near future. It may come in a DDI article but that's something I'm not going to pay for. Thus, we (the community) could/should create the things the designers will not. I've already created some "evil" Paragon Paths like the Shadow Adepts, Justice of Weald and Woe, and Thayan Knight and believe they could all be fun paths to take in a 4e game.
#15 lord_karsus Jan 23, 2009 10:34:36	-No future stuff, and the fact that evil is kinda being shunned, since you shouldn't be evil.
#16 markustay63 Jan 23, 2009 15:38:22	I do sort of like the idea of each surviving Enclave being like a miniature 'Tharch', and the rulers all like 'little Tharchions'. Its very different... a country without a land to call their own. Very fantasy... very cool... A Government with no one to rule...
#17 Aegeri Jan 24, 2009 17:27:00	-No future stuff, and the fact that evil is kinda being shunned, since you shouldn't be evil. As I mentioned in a previous discussion, running evil campaigns has a host of problems and issues that need to be addressed: all of these have nothing to do with the system IMO and lie directly at the table the game is being played. It really requires specific players to work well, who are going to have a certain mindset about it and will work heavily with their DM to ensure the game works out. 4E makes the same "shouldn't be" evil assumption that 3rd edition does (or 2nd), albeit without examples of potentially evil prestige classes (Blackguard comes to mind as a notable absence). The evil games of DnD I've ran or played in have been in 2E and 3E and it matters not a bit which edition you use: it's the people at the table. Personally, I am fine with this. I would rather bookspace go to things I will use regularly rather than things easily created myself for the few times it's ever going to be relevant. Minding, the Doomguard PP in Manual of the Planes comes very close to a sort of archetype evil character in many ways. In fact, many of the Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies in the game already are fairly neutral on alignment anyway, so would function equally well as good or evil (Sword Coast Corsair, Doomguard, Gatecrasher etc). Only a handful are specifically "good" in my mind (Knight of Celestia and Morninglord stand out immediately). So it's not as if "evil" campaigns literally have to draw everything from scratch because there is nothing usable. Given the relative neutrality of the Red Wizards in the FRCG though, it would probably be interesting to see what a RW Paragon Path in 4th would look like. Although I still have my suspicions they are quietly evil and still serving Szass Tam. At least that makes them interesting to use as potential "Are they or aren't they" villains. Unlike a certain obnoxiously over-present God...
#18 lord_karsus Jan 24, 2009 20:06:14	As I mentioned in a previous discussion, running evil campaigns has a host of problems and issues that need to be addressed: all of these have nothing to do with the system IMO and lie directly at the table the game is being played. It really requires specific players to work well, who are going to have a certain mindset about it and will work heavily with their DM to ensure the game works out. 4E makes the same "shouldn't be" evil assumption that 3rd edition does (or 2nd), albeit without examples of potentially evil prestige classes (Blackguard comes to mind as a notable absence). The evil games of DnD I've ran or played in have been in 2E and 3E and it matters not a bit which edition you use: it's the people at the table. Personally, I am fine with this. I would rather bookspace go to things I will use regularly rather than things easily created myself for the few times it's ever going to be relevant. Minding, the Doomguard PP in Manual of the Planes comes very close to a sort of archetype evil character in many ways. In fact, many of the Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies in the game already are fairly neutral on alignment anyway, so would function equally well as good or evil (Sword Coast Corsair, Doomguard, Gatecrasher etc). Only a handful are specifically "good" in my mind (Knight of Celestia and Morninglord stand out immediately). So it's not as if "evil" campaigns literally have to draw everything from scratch because there is nothing usable. -All of which is true...but doesn't have much to do with, or rather, is only tangential to what I was alluding to, that we have the designers telling us that, for the time being, "being good" is the primary focus in the books, and as such, PPs/EDs for "bad guys", or monster stats for "good guys" and things like this are on the back burner, for the time being.