Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 realbombchu Sep 07, 2008 21:45:24	Hi everyone! I haven't been here in a while, and I haven't read very many of these threads, so please forgive me if I am beating a dead horse (or lion, I guess). I just got the FRCG, and I was wondering what happened to Nobanion? I looked around, and found a reference to him being an exarch of Silvanus, but he was unaligned now. I'm kind of wondering if a) Nobanion is still alive at all, since they have since changed the article I read that from, and b) why they made him unaligned when he was lawful good before? Anyway, I'm not looking for hard and fast canon (unless you all have some), but I would like your thoughts. Thanks!
#2 GreenKnight Sep 08, 2008 0:04:17	I looked around, and found a reference to him being an exarch of Silvanus, but he was unaligned now. I'm kind of wondering if a) Nobanion is still alive at all, since they have since changed the article I read that from, and b) why they made him unaligned when he was lawful good before? That article was changed as their plans for Nobanion changed. There's no mention of him whatsoever in the FRCG, what his alignment is, or what happened to him. Although it's possible that he somehow got shunted over to Abeir.
#3 marius4 Sep 08, 2008 0:51:09	Hi everyone! I haven't been here in a while, and I haven't read very many of these threads, so please forgive me if I am beating a dead horse (or lion, I guess). I just got the FRCG, and I was wondering what happened to Nobanion? I looked around, and found a reference to him being an exarch of Silvanus, but he was unaligned now. I'm kind of wondering if a) Nobanion is still alive at all, since they have since changed the article I read that from, and b) why they made him unaligned when he was lawful good before? Anyway, I'm not looking for hard and fast canon (unless you all have some), but I would like your thoughts. Thanks! The Nobanion reference you mention was to an article, preview, or a what-sort-of-changes-will-4e-bring discussion of some sort from a while back. a) On the Ask the Designers thread, Rich Baker stated that if a deity isn't mentioned specifically on the deities charts or in fluff text then it can generally be assumed that s/he either died or simply vanished (to Abeir, to elsewhere, etc.). It doesn't mean they never existed, just that they don't anymore. A popular alternative for unlisted minor deities such as Nobanion would be to make him an exarch of a greater deity, such as Silvanus. These exarchs would simply be ones that "didn't make the charts" in the Pantheon chapter. Also, you might consider rolling him into any other deity as an aspect of that deity. For example, in 4e Hanali Celanil is revealed as an aspect of Sune, Sehanine as an aspect of Selune, and even mighty Talos as an aspect of Gruumsh. "Aspect" here doesn't take on any special meaning; it just means another face of that particular deity, often for different peoples. b) I never got to read the actual discussion/preview that included Nobanion, so I'm just speculating here. They may have been planning to emphasize his animalistic nature more; an ethos of working together in a "pride" doesn't necessarily have to extend into the moral sphere. Or they may have had a story in mind for his philosophical change. By and large it's been a fairly trying 100 years since the Spellplague. Even Tymora is described as more somber at times. The window seems pretty wide open for where you could take his alignment and his story. I think he might be interesting as a Lawful Good exarch under Silvanus, and thus a counterweight to Malar, but he could just as easily be Unaligned in that position as well. I also imagine many would like to see him serving as a Lawful Good Tormish exarch. He could serve Chauntea perhaps as a LG exarch of natural pride/pack order (e.g., harmony & teamwork) to get the best hunt or bounty from nature. As a LG, G, or U exarch of Selune, he could inspire "noble" werecreatures who balance between savagery and sanity or virtue. He might even have become an exarch of Sune (a big move), serving as an exemplar of nobility and beauty in the natural world and maybe even as a consort to Sharess. Just some ideas.
#4 lord_karsus Sep 08, 2008 10:25:47	That article was changed as their plans for Nobanion changed. -Right. Anything mentioned about Nobanion in that article is now apocryphal. -That said, I like the concept that Nobanion teamed up with Torm and Bahamut.
#5 realbombchu Sep 08, 2008 11:22:02	Wow, good post, marius4! I like your ideas. I really like the idea or him being an exarch to Torm, even though I think Silvanus works better because Torm was not a nature deity (but I remember his lion head). Cool, lots to think about!
#6 TomCosta Sep 08, 2008 15:15:39	Also, there is no rule that an exarch has to match their patron's alignment. On the contrary, I'd view exarchs as sometimes being almost an aspect of their patron's portfolio, so Malar is still evil, even chaotic evil, but remains an aspect of Silvanus, just as Mielikki is good and is a servant of Silvanus. That said, neutral gods are more likely to have this occur, but not always. I can't remember if Hoar is evil or not now, but her certainly doesn't have to be to serve Bane. He can remain unaligned.
#7 marius4 Sep 08, 2008 15:59:40	Wow, good post, marius4! I like your ideas. I really like the idea or him being an exarch to Torm, even though I think Silvanus works better because Torm was not a nature deity (but I remember his lion head). Cool, lots to think about! Good! Glad your thoughts are a-goin'. Nobanion is a bit complex in that he's bestial but espouses philosophical virtues at the same time. He's sort of a walking "nature vs. civilization" dichotomy, and I don't think it would be too much of a stretch either way to fit him as an exarch under Torm or Silvanus. If I had to choose, I actually might choose Torm. It's easier to imagine a thinking mind that regresses or connects with primitive instincts than vice versa, a primitive mind that becomes intellectual and philosophical sometimes. But perhaps animals might have something to say about that! :P If you aren't set on Nobanion being an exarch, it might be very interesting to fold him up as an aspect of Torm. In that way, Nobanion could represent Torm's perspective on nature and his inroads into having his ideals reflected more strongly in less civilized societies. ...Or he could do all that as an exarch too, I suppose.
#8 GreenKnight Sep 08, 2008 16:13:01	If it were up to me, the natives of Celestia would've been as follows: CELESTIA Greater God: Torm [Law] (Lawful Good) - Exarch: Nobanion [Royalty] (Lawful Good) - Exarch: Siamorphe [Nobility] (Lawful Good) God: Bahamut [Justice] (Lawful Good) - Exarch: Hoar [Retribution] (Unaligned) God: Ilmater [Suffering] (Lawful Good) - Exarch: Eldath [Peace] (Good)
#9 Kobold_Avenger Sep 08, 2008 17:00:39	Well in core 4e, Sekolah is an exarch of Merora. Melora is unaligned while Sekolah is worshiped by a CE race. Sahuagin are CE in 4th.
#10 marius4 Sep 08, 2008 18:14:45	If it were up to me, the natives of Celestia would've been as follows: CELESTIA Greater God: Torm [Law] (Lawful Good) - Exarch: Nobanion [Royalty] (Lawful Good) - Exarch: Siamorphe [Nobility] (Lawful Good) God: Bahamut [Justice] (Lawful Good) - Exarch: Hoar [Retribution] (Unaligned) God: Ilmater [Suffering] (Lawful Good) - Exarch: Eldath [Peace] (Good) Looks homey! :D Two things: 1) Where did Hoar end up officially, anyway? I can't recall. 2) She could work fine here, but personally I would have Eldath as an exarch under Selune.
#11 GreenKnight Sep 08, 2008 19:35:00	Hoar is now Evil and is in Banehold, serving as an Exarch of Bane.
#12 lord_karsus Sep 09, 2008 21:59:43	-Poor, poor Hoar...Why does it seem that deities of neutrality always seem to tip to one side or another?
#13 GreenKnight Sep 09, 2008 22:40:38	Cause people who stick to the middle of the road tend to get run over?
#14 lord_karsus Sep 09, 2008 22:47:43	-Or, both lanes of traffic narrowly avoid them. Less narrowly, of course, if there's an island in the middle of the street.
#15 GreenKnight Sep 09, 2008 23:14:01	I'm reminded of those people who saw a scene in a movie in which the characters lay down in the middle of a street while traffic passed them by. They thought it was so awesome that they went out and did it, themselves. Of course, it came as something of a shock to them when they ended up getting run over. :D Valuable lesson learned: Stick to the sidewalks. As for Hoar, sucks that he ended up evil. I think he would've been awesome as the Forgotten Realms version of the Spectre, working for Torm or Bahamut as the Unaligned Exarch of Retribution, dishing out righteous punishment left and right.
#16 suin_bahhar_02 Sep 10, 2008 10:10:52	My guess Hoar just has roamed the Barrens a bit too long and the plane's evil mojo nudged his thinking toward evil. Standing by in the courts and obeying the draconian laws Bane has layed out. But he has some sort of plan in the works... perhaps even waiting for Bane to slip up. The clergy of Hoar has likely fallen on hard times allowing vengeancetakers free hand in choosing AND exacting vengeance regardless of actual local trials. A clergy of Hoar without patience could be seen as an evil organisation, unwilling to see error in their verdicts and doggedly pushing its members to act as bloodlusting inquisitors.
#17 lord_karsus Sep 10, 2008 23:48:19	As for Hoar, sucks that he ended up evil. I think he would've been awesome as the Forgotten Realms version of the Spectre, working for Torm or Bahamut as the Unaligned Exarch of Retribution, dishing out righteous punishment left and right. -I was envisioning Hoar more of a "Divine Mercenary" of sorts, working for good or evil, depending on his mood, and what he got out of it.
#18 borris Sep 11, 2008 2:28:53	Remember that by Faiths and Pantheons, both Tyr and Shar were attempting to lure poor, tormented Hoar. Tyr wanted to make him a deity of poetic justice while Shar saw him as more as a patron of blind vengeance. With Tyr gone but Shar still as active as ever, and with Hoar having his Doomcourt on an evil-aligned plane ever since the fall of the Untheric pantheon, it's no surprise that he'd eventually turn to the dark side. And Bane being as opportunistic as ever, managed to swipe him from right under Shar's nose.