Cabron, I think I'm converting to FR... When I ask him why he said that eberon wasn't as detailed as FR, that they don't have enough (if any) "high level antagonists" and he feels that he has to do everything himself.
It got me thinking:
Wasn't one of WotC selling points with 4E kinda D&D plug and play? If so, doesn't the "points of light" a hindering element more than anything else?
How many people out there feels like my friend?
Where can they get the mass amount of "lore" in 4E?
Just food for thought i guess....
That was the plan all along.
BTW, you did see that last amazing Realms article, right?
The one about the WARFORGED.
I like the 4th Faerun, sure i was deeply saddened when i found out (month before release) that mystra is killed...again.
But i came over it, i even imagined a story where i would tell the tale of a wizard girl with a spellmark in the form of mystras symbol on her forehead and how she tries to archive godhood to replace the fallen deity because she loves Mystra a smuch as i did and do.
That was the day i found out "To heck withall ney sayers, you love every setting and every RPG equaly you'll make the best you can with the new setting and bring light again into the darkness, for the fallen Mystra!"
So a plea to everyone...please, don't hate a setting, no setting deserves tobe hated especialy because of a few guys and maybe girls who thought of them and brought them to live and put very much heartblood in it and gave them to us to play with them.
The story of the realms goes on, in old books the past in new books and in your imagination the present and future!
Do'T lock yourself out of something because you THINK it was crippled, but try to IMAGINE what you can do with this new toy!
I don't think the majority of players have the time to detail their own setting and if they do then why would they want to insert the pathetic 4e fluff
Eberron, it's detailed, especially considering its short existence
All of the continents have been fully fleshed-out - I have nowhere to insert my own lore, and thats why I could never possibly use it. The amount of fluff I'd have to learn is a DM's nightmare.
Now FR... THERE'S a setting I can sink my teeth into! So many un-explored regions... entire continents! Quite literally, the PERFECT balance of lore and 'empty areas'.
Or... at least... it was.
Do'T lock yourself out of something because you THINK it was crippled, but try to IMAGINE what you can do with this new toy!
Why stop there?
If I'm going to imagine everything for myself, I sure as hell don't need any of their books, now do I?
They had a wonderful idea... but they just didn't take it far enough. Instead of a that crappy map, we should have gotten a big sheet of paper and a box of Crayons with the FRCG.
A BLANK, FRCG, mind you, so it could truly be 'our own'.
So a plea to everyone...please, don't hate a setting, no setting deserves tobe hated especialy because of a few guys and maybe girls who thought of them and brought them to live and put very much heartblood in it and gave them to us to play with them.
Oh well that's life. If people "hate" this setting or any setting, it doesn't affect you, so you shouldn't care.
In the end it is just different strokes. I am an EB DM and had no problems with making my own NPCs of any level. When I ran my FR game I made my own BBEGs and never used the statted ones in the books. When I ran that FR game I also tried to find the one place that was not detailed just so I could add my own stuff. I chose Nesme and ignored what little info there was of the place. I did use the Silver Marches info. I used the same formula for many places in EB.
As the one poster said imagination is important to a gamer it is a RPers most useful "Sourcebook" at the end of the day ;)
Back to your foxhole and leave us at peace! What the hell is wrong with you?!
I had a interesting Convesation with one of my players last night. He is my opposite when it comes to Settings taste, he likes Eberon best and that's the only setting he DMs but he has no issues with FR. but yesterday he told me:
Cabron, I think I'm converting to FR... When I ask him why he said that eberon wasn't as detailed as FR, that they don't have enough (if any) "high level antagonists" and he feels that he has to do everything himself.
His statement seems to be true, because FR details several high level antagonists (Szass Tam, Manshoon etc) and has plenty of potential for many others. This is actually something I don't mind at all, not that I will use very many of these named NPCs at any point: but I can use them for context in wider adventures when required.
High level antagonists don't bother me much either.
Wasn't one of WotC selling points with 4E kinda D&D plug and play? If so, doesn't the "points of light" a hindering element more than anything else?
No?
Where can they get the mass amount of "lore" in 4E?
It has more than sufficient detail for what I require. Place X in in country Y and it is next to area Z. There is this city, this guy rules it and some ideas and concepts for using the place in a wider adventure. I can pretty much do the rest easily from there for whatever story I want to write. It has the groundwork, all I need to do is specify how to build the remaining structure, what the house looks like and finally if the roof is tiled or not.
The best thing about the 4E realms is now I don't need to worry about the neighbor potentially crapping on my new lawn. He got killed/depowered/died in the spellplague and new neighbors didn't move in. Makes the entire street my playground instead of my front yard and back yard. Sure it's more work to make an entire street and not to mention make all the buildings, but the result is a game more tailored towards what I want despite having the same universal groundwork. But again, I find there is more than enough detail for everything I want as I can easily put the work into creating everything else I want.
When I ask him why he said that Eberron wasn't as detailed as FR
TV Tropes: Shrug of God
Something we like.
(T)hat they don't have enough (if any) "high level antagonists"
Daelkyr, Rakshasa Rajahs, Quori, Erandis d'Vol, Mordain the Fleshweaver, The Lord of Blades with a few added levels, Giants in Xendrik, Dragons of the Chamber, the Dragonmarked Houses and other mortal organizations might have some surprises, King Kaius (Add some levels if needed) and so on.
Not to mention the fact that there are going to be some new antagonists in the 4E Eberron books.
-Joni
Oh well that's life. If people "hate" this setting or any setting, it doesn't affect you, so you shouldn't care.
It's really hard not to care for soemthing you love.
And it does affect me when i see (not read) the many threads wanting to tell us how they utterly hate the setting for nitpicks.
Its easy to like soemthing, take FR:
some say the new setting isn't detailed enough, then use it as a skelleton and build it to your likings and have in the backmind that it'sstil based on something with great lore
OR some say it's too detailed than taqke the lore you like about a region and go from there use it as a jumpingboard into your new adventure.
When everyone can say how they hate a setting i want to show them how to love it.
It's really hard not to care for soemthing you love.
And it does affect me when i see (not read) the many threads wanting to tell us how they utterly hate the setting for nitpicks.
Its easy to like soemthing, take FR:
some say the new setting isn't detailed enough, then use it as a skelleton and build it to your likings and have in the backmind that it'sstil based on something with great lore
OR some say it's too detailed than taqke the lore you like about a region and go from there use it as a jumpingboard into your new adventure.
When everyone can say how they hate a setting i want to show them how to love it.
I wish you luck. Though I believe most would have liked the changes if a complete description was included with the drastic change or if it took longer to change over. But C'est la vie.
I------------I-----------------I
-On one side, the left side, you have everything filled in. On the other side, the right side, you have nothing filled in. In the middle, obviously, is a mix of both.
-In the past, the Forgotten Realms (that is, only Faerûn. Let's not forget that most of the word has never really even been mentioned) were probably like this:
I--------O----I-----------------I
-Now, after everything is said and done, the Forgotten Realms are probably like this:
I------------I-----------O------I
Daelkyr, Rakshasa Rajahs, Quori, Erandis d'Vol, Mordain the Fleshweaver, The Lord of Blades with a few added levels, Giants in Xendrik, Dragons of the Chamber, the Dragonmarked Houses and other mortal organizations might have some surprises, King Kaius (Add some levels if needed) and so on.
Seriously. If this guy thinks there's no high level opposition in Eberron, he's high.
Anyhow, I understand what you are trying to say there, but without any indicators, we are just guessing what those 'thingies' mean.
For instance, which is the 'low lore' end, and which the 'Extensive lore' end?
I had assumed the left side should be the zero point, but going by those 'zeros' there, it appears the right side is the low-end of detail.
Seriously. If this guy thinks there's no high level opposition in Eberron, he's high.
Yeah, but you need to go looking for it.
In FR, I could have my level 18 Innkeeper put a stop to the player's antics. :D
I kid... I KID!!!
You and your crazy 'Metric System'. :P
Anyhow, I understand what you are trying to say there, but without any indicators, we are just guessing what those 'thingies' mean.
For instance, which is the 'low lore' end, and which the 'Extensive lore' end?
I had assumed the left side should be the zero point, but going by those 'zeros' there, it appears the right side is the low-end of detail.
-Hmm, good point. I'll edit the text to make it clearer, then.
It's really hard not to care for soemthing you love.
And it does affect me when i see (not read) the many threads wanting to tell us how they utterly hate the setting for nitpicks.
Threads you haven't even read affect you? Wow.
Jesus...really please not "another bashing thread"
Is not my intent to bash nothing or no one here, I just like so see people opinions and a lil of help on this.
The DDi, obviously...
That was the plan all along.
BTW, you did see that last amazing Realms article, right?
The one about the WARFORGED.
Hey, I always wanted to play "jonhny 5" in the realms :Pthat's seems to be the point of PoL, what used to be the designer's job is now GM's
I don't think the majority of players have the time to detail their own setting
That's what I mean. If supposely 4E is faster to play and lv and easier for the DM, then why take "lore/fluff" ? seems to me that defeats the purpose.
Tell your buddy about the Grand History of Eberron. It is a fan made PDF that has tons of EB info on it.
Thanks, I will! :D ....Where can I find it?:whatsthis
A
s the one poster said imagination is important to a gamer it is a RPers most useful "Sourcebook" at the end of the day ;)
QFT
ODY!!
Back to your foxhole and leave us at peace! What the hell is wrong with you?!
What's wrong with you? I've fail two arms room inspections back to back, My beautiful car broke down, I knocked up my ex wife while I was on leave, my GF obviously dumped my a$$, half of my gamming group is deploying ANd I'm still not as bitter as you've been lately!
I expect that from MK cuz I'm sure he isn't getting any but...
And BTW We haven't use Fox holes since "nam" (i think) :P
Daelkyr, Rakshasa Rajahs, Quori, Erandis d'Vol, Mordain the Fleshweaver, The Lord of Blades with a few added levels, Giants in Xendrik, Dragons of the Chamber, the Dragonmarked Houses and other mortal organizations might have some surprises, King Kaius (Add some levels if needed) and so on.
-Joni
I'll make note of that, but I think he's point was (without adjusting them)
Seriously. If this guy thinks there's no high level opposition in Eberron, he's high.
Read above. And thanks for your well thought of post :rolleye2:
-There's a sort of "meter" of description:
I------------I-----------------I
-On one side, the left side, you have everything filled in. On the other side, the right side, you have nothing filled in. In the middle, obviously, is a mix of both.
-In the past, the Forgotten Realms (that is, only Faerûn. Let's not forget that most of the word has never really even been mentioned) were probably like this:
I--------O----I-----------------I
-Now, after everything is said and done, the Forgotten Realms are probably like this:
I------------I-----------O------I
-Oh, come on. It's not that hard!
-The "old" Forgotten Realms leaned more towards the "everything is filled in" side. The "new" Forgotten Realms lean more towards the "nothing is filled in" side.
-Ultimatley, as to your question, it depends on the D&D people. Some people like that things aren't filled in, so they can fill in whatever they want. Other people don't like that things aren't filled in, because that's against the whole reason they buy pre-made campaign settings- so that they don't have to fill things in. And then, for those who don't care about D&D, and just like the setting as a setting, the latter is an anathema.
Thanks, I will! :D ....Where can I find it?:whatsthis
Just Google "The Grand History of EB". It is a fanmade deal and it is in PDF form. Plus the free Dragonshard Articles on WOTCs site have tons of little tidbits on the setting. Hellcow (Keith Baker) will also answer any question on the setting on the EB forums.
Tweaking NPCs to fit the parties level is always a constant thing I find mysefl doing. I did it for my FR game and now am doing it for EB. You just cannot get away from it. FOr 4E it is easier than ever to level things up and down though, it takes two seconds. I remember it was a bit of a nightmare for me to do it for 3E.
Anyway Rakshasa Rajahs, Giants in Xendrik, Daelkyr, and Dragons are all pretty High level in terms of threats. No Eberron does not have a level 25 wizard in the majority of towns or cities and your buddy will have to make them up on his own. If he needs high level threats they are there to be had, but if he wants to make them humanoids he will have to level them up himself. I usually just level up humanoid baddies to the parties level when needed.
Threads you haven't even read affect you? Wow.
Yes they do, thier existance is what disturbs me.
When I go throguh the FR forum and seeing "Ah i don't like X" or "I don't like FR generaly" thats a point where I say "damn them all, why do they even post here?"
Thats not for FR specifically but also for the hidden 4EWars like "What don't you like in 4E" I don't read them anymore, the same old ramblings paired with the same old people who try to defend it or beat it.
When i SEE these threads, yea they do affect me.
I don't need to read them as I know what will be in there (after I read way too much of them)
Or nice example (and totaly offtopic) in the GSL forum there is a guy who said basicaly this: "I don't like 4E (anymore) so i want to make a rivaling product, netherless can I use your stuff?"
What?!
I think that the problem with 4e FR has is the intention of it has passed most people by. From what I understand trying to do background/history research for my 4e game is that there was/is so much lore to catchup on it did create a barrier to make sure that you stayed compatible with any future product launch that came out of WoTC.
With 4e they intentionally swept the slate clean in a bid to make FR more accessible which as a newbie I can clearly feel. I have been able to pickup the more generic materials out there and apply them to my FR game to save time. I get the feeling that would be very hard to do in a fully mapped out Faerun.
Though on the flip-side if I had been in the situation as most of you posting here have. With the heavy amount of time and energy invested on the pre-spellplague lore I'd probably reject the 4e realms as well.
With 4e they intentionally swept the slate clean in a bid to make FR more accessible which as a newbie I can clearly feel. I have been able to pickup the more generic materials out there and apply them to my FR game to save time. I get the feeling that would be very hard to do in a fully mapped out Faerun.
-People have been doing it for, what, about twenty years now (1987-2008).
I'm not trying to defend/attack the reboot decision of 4E, I'm just (as a new player/DM) trying to put across a perspective that it has opened myself and my players to FR where in the past I feel that it would have been too much information for us to take in and still be part of what the realms is.
Of course they have but with every extra piece of lore you add it becomes harder (not impossible granted) for a newbie to get an idea of what the realms is.
-That information presents a barrier into entry is an illusion, when push comes to shove. If someone wants to get into something enough, they'll do it, regardless of how easy or how hard they think it is, or how hard or easy it actually is. Last summer, for example, I began to watch That 70's Show. I had never seen it before, but I saw two or three episodes, I found it funny, and I decided to "become a fan" and watch it regularly. The first couple of episodes I saw were from season 5, out of 8. So, there was about 5 seasons worth of continuity that already happened, and "was in effect" that I didn't know about. Did that somehow turn me off from the show? No. I watched and learned. I've seen most of the show now.
Yes they do, thier existance is what disturbs me.
When I go throguh the FR forum and seeing "Ah i don't like X" or "I don't like FR generaly" thats a point where I say "damn them all, why do they even post here?"
Thats not for FR specifically but also for the hidden 4EWars like "What don't you like in 4E" I don't read them anymore, the same old ramblings paired with the same old people who try to defend it or beat it.
When i SEE these threads, yea they do affect me.
I don't need to read them as I know what will be in there (after I read way too much of them)
I get the same feeling from pro-4e FR threads. I think to myself "How can anyone enjoy this obviously inferior photocopy of the Realms?" Every post I read that's pro-4e makes me slightly nauseous.
Although I have been a 'Realms DM' for quite a few years now, I was using the '4e style' (lore-lite) for most of that time, WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS.
Amazing, aren't I? :P
No... I'm not... I'm NORMAL. I don't get all 'paranoid' about not knowing something about a game I'm running, because if I don't know about it, it DOESN'T EXIST IN MY CAMPAIGN!!!
99.99% of EVERYTHING I know about FR was learned from being a regular HERE for the last two years (and at CK, to a much lesser extent).
So, either I'm an Aberration (don't answer that... :coolcthul ), or I am self-confident enough about my own DMing abilities to not give a rat's tukus how well I know the 'canon Realms'.
The problem wasn't that there was TOO MUCH LORE (because there wasn't - Eberron atually has more, when you think about it - they had no 'repeat books' in every edition), the problem was that most DMs today are just too damn lazy to bother learning any of it.*
Do what I did - hangout here all the time... within six months you'll be an 'expert'. ;)
Just try not to be as obnoxious... :embarrass
* And once you start learning it, it'll be come addicting: you'll wonder why you didn't 'pay attention' years sooner (as I did).
I have one horrific story about a DMPC who was a Shade/Werepanther Wizard who did not lower his ECL to meet the parties level. Of course it gets worse but with that first sentence everyone her gets the idea. Yeah it could have happened in any setting but it happened this time in FR. So I am sure some people will go "Typical FR DM." or some nonsense and never bother with the horrible DM or FR for many years. Of course because of their ignorance they may miss out on some un times. Anyway I just mentioned the DM because it was a pretty funny story.
What's wrong with you? I've fail two arms room inspections back to back, My beautiful car broke down, I knocked up my ex wife while I was on leave, my GF obviously dumped my a$$, half of my gamming group is deploying ANd I'm still not as bitter as you've been lately!
I expect that from MK cuz I'm sure he isn't getting any but...
I'm so sorry, dude!! I didn't know!!
What's wrong with you? I've fail two arms room inspections back to back, My beautiful car broke down, I knocked up my ex wife while I was on leave, my GF obviously dumped my a$$, half of my gamming group is deploying ANd I'm still not as bitter as you've been lately!
Ahhh...I remember the days, young dumb and full of ...
How quickly we move away from the folly of our youth, though I must admit that is the kind of raw deal I have not seen in many years. Ex wives are exes for a reason.
Oh and Fox Holes became known as single man fighting positions, and are rarely used, a two man fighting position being the standard. The Fox Hole remained in use for a long time due to its ability to retain its shape if properly dug while a tank drove over it. Needless to say tanks got heavier and that no longer works.:D
Ahhh...I remember the days, young dumb and full of ...
How quickly we move away from the folly of our youth, though I must admit that is the kind of raw deal I have not seen in many years. Ex wives are exes for a reason.
Oh and Fox Holes became known as single man fighting positions, and are rarely used, a two man fighting position being the standard. The Fox Hole remained in use for a long time due to its ability to retain its shape if properly dug while a tank drove over it. Needless to say tanks got heavier and that no longer works.:D
Yeah well she paid my ticket back home and that how she wanted "paid" back :D
I'm so sorry, dude!! I didn't know!!
I'm good man, all I'm saying is "try to relax a lil" I miss the ol Dokkie
I'm good man, all I'm saying is "try to relax a lil" I miss the ol Dokkie
As soon as he finds Mrtyl he'll lighten up. That crazy woman is nowhere to be found.Dont worry Judge I'll use my speshial ranger skillsh to help you find her.
;)Yeah well she paid my ticket back home and that how she wanted "paid" back :D
Ouch!:D
It may be FR lite, but that way inexperienced players and DMs such as our group don't have any problem. There's plenty of time to meet the big names later... if we want to.
Yes they do, thier existance is what disturbs me.
*shrug* Then perhaps you should reconsider visiting this site, because it's not big on censorship, if you catch my meaning.
When I go throguh the FR forum and seeing "Ah i don't like X" or "I don't like FR generaly" thats a point where I say "damn them all, why do they even post here?"
That's nothing new--people have discussed their dislike of aspects of the setting before the 4E Realms were a twinkle in anyone's eye. No doubt at least some people who love the new Realms were the annoying complainers years back (certain changes were made to the setting in hopes of appeasing such people--we know that much from designers' statements)--and what's more, some of them still like to complain about the old Realms!
From what I understand trying to do background/history research for my 4e game is that there was/is so much lore to catchup on it did create a barrier to make sure that you stayed compatible with any future product launch that came out of WoTC.
The 4E Realms is not going to be a "blank slate", not at all. While it's true that there aren't any more sourcebooks planned for the setting, there are plenty of novels coming down the pipe, and they are all going to be canon. As far as I can tell, it's only a matter of time before another "barrier" pops up (when, if ever that happens, is different for each person).
With 4e they intentionally swept the slate clean in a bid to make FR more accessible which as a newbie I can clearly feel. I have been able to pickup the more generic materials out there and apply them to my FR game to save time. I get the feeling that would be very hard to do in a fully mapped out Faerun.
Maybe, but there has never been a time when Faerun was "fully mapped out". That is a canard.
Though on the flip-side if I had been in the situation as most of you posting here have. With the heavy amount of time and energy invested on the pre-spellplague lore I'd probably reject the 4e realms as well.
You say that as if the preference some people (such as myself) have for the old non-Spellplague* setting comes down mainly to simple, cold-hearted economics--that is, a matter of how much time one's invested in the setting. For me, that's not the case at all. Honestly, I simply like the old Realms better. I love the "old" (timeless?) characters that inhabited the setting, and for me they are the real selling point of the FR, not a bunch of nations on a map. And what's more, I find the "new" Realms quite repugnant and not to my tastes at all (too much of an emphasis on Shar, Lovecraftian creatures, general "weirdness for it's own sake", etc.). It kind of feels to me like someone enjoyed stepping on and destroying that which drew me to the Realms in the first place--that's my gut reaction, anyway.
Lastly, I came into the setting relatively LATE in the game compared to some people around here (I got into it around 2000). Not that long ago, I was a newbie, and I loved the setting at first sight and got into it very easily. As pointed out countless times earlier (even in this very thread) not all "newbies" have trouble with the Realms.
*"Pre-Spellplague" implies that someday the Spellplague will happen. In my Realms, it never will, so it's a "non-Spellplague" setting.
As pointed out countless times earlier (even in this very thread) not all "newbies" have trouble with the Realms.
I'll second that. I got into FR in 2000 as well, and ever since I read the 3e FRCS, I've been trying to collect as much of the old material as I can get my hands on to fill in those details that I didn't get from coming in at the start of 3e.
Heck, I never even bothered with the novels, and I still consider myself knowledgeable about all things realmsian.(a short, weekly trip on the FR forum was all I needed to keep up with the setting)
"Too much lore" my hairy Canadian a**...
-I got into it about 2002 or 2003, so "Ha!" both of you! :P
*ahem*....2005 :P
and what's more, some of them still like to complain about the old Realms
Perhaps one wouldn't feel the requirement to point out the old complaints repeatedly about the old realms if certain people wouldn't keep continually bringing up the same complaints about the new realms (which are, coincidentally often the opposite point to something done previously: EG killing off high level NPCs)?
Just a thought.
Late 80's here... bunch of little whippersnappers.
Wow, you're like old.... MT would be proud :D
You say that as if the preference some people (such as myself) have for the old non-Spellplague* setting comes down mainly to simple, cold-hearted economics--that is, a matter of how much time one's invested in the setting. For me, that's not the case at all. Honestly, I simply like the old Realms better. I love the "old" (timeless?) characters that inhabited the setting, and for me they are the real selling point of the FR, not a bunch of nations on a map. And what's more, I find the "new" Realms quite repugnant and not to my tastes at all (too much of an emphasis on Shar, Lovecraftian creatures, general "weirdness for it's own sake", etc.). It kind of feels to me like someone enjoyed stepping on and destroying that which drew me to the Realms in the first place--that's my gut reaction, anyway.
Lastly, I came into the setting relatively LATE in the game compared to some people around here (I got into it around 2000). Not that long ago, I was a newbie, and I loved the setting at first sight and got into it very easily. As pointed out countless times earlier (even in this very thread) not all "newbies" have trouble with the Realms.
*"Pre-Spellplague" implies that someday the Spellplague will happen. In my Realms, it never will, so it's a "non-Spellplague" setting.
Well every group's setting is personal to the group and the DM that runs it. The reason I was posting originally was to actually back up some of the people that enjoy the 4E setting (and by extension the 4e game itself). I'm certainly not here to say that post/pre/non spellplague settings are superior over another.
Bottom line really is with all the padding that existed in the pre/non spellplague realms it was too much of a catchup for anyone wanting to invest into the realms without doing a FR history course.
I think that is underlined when follow up posts talk about people who have been invested into FR for 6-7 years as 'whippersnappers'
I'm happy to say that I will invest my D&D time into FR and bring a bunch of new players to FR in a post-Spellplague game world.
I think that is underlined when follow up posts talk about people who have been invested into FR for 6-7 years as 'whippersnappers'
I think that was just a joke.
I don't think I'm a "whippersnapper" when it comes to the Realms, especially compared to most of the other gamers I know. I out-geek them all the time. :D
Bottom line really is with all the padding that existed in the pre/non spellplague realms it was too much of a catchup for anyone wanting to invest into the realms without doing a FR history course.
-Information presenting an actual barrier into entry was an illusion when I said it before, about 20 posts ago, and nothing has changed. If someone wants to get into something enough, they'll get into it. Once upon a time, I "discovered" the Forgotten Realms, liked it, and got into it. I'm still waiting to take my Forgotten Realms history course. And, I guess I narrowly avoided the massive wall of text and information that stood in my way from liking the setting.
-Information presenting an actual barrier into entry was an illusion when I said it before, about 20 posts ago, and nothing has changed. If someone wants to get into something enough, they'll get into it. Once upon a time, I "discovered" the Forgotten Realms, liked it, and got into it. I'm still waiting to take my Forgotten Realms history course. And, I guess I narrowly avoided the massive wall of text and information that stood in my way from liking the setting.
Mind if I ask when 'Once upon a time' was?
Since then how much extra lore was added to the setting up to the Spellplague canon?As I see WoTC wanted to bring fresh blood into D&D 4e in a bid to expand Tabletop and their market share at the same time. They wanted to use all their settings as a way of snagging those new players. FR was rebooted in a way to remove as many perceived barriers as possible.
Sure you're right if someone was *that* interested in D&D/FR they would put the effort in to go back and read up on all the Lore. Are there many of those types of DMs/Players out there playing 4e, I don't think so (I know personally I haven't gone too deep, which 4e FR allows me to get away with, but I still want a game in FR that is compatible with the Canon).
Mind if I ask when 'Once upon a time' was?
-As I said earlier, 2002 or 2003. I'm fairly sure it was 2003, since that was when I created an account here. Since then, how much information was added to the setting? Comparatively, not much. In game, about two years had passed (1,372 DR to 1,374 DR). Compare that to the roughly 20 in-game years that passed from when the Forgotten Realms first debuted as a D&D setting to the present, and the roughly 30,000 in-game years that came "built-in" to the setting.
As I see WoTC wanted to bring fresh blood into D&D 4e in a bid to expand Tabletop and their market share at the same time. They wanted to use all their settings as a way of snagging those new players. FR was rebooted in a way to remove as many perceived barriers as possible.
-Right. That much, I believe too, and have no qualms with.
Sure you're right if someone was *that* interested in D&D/FR they would put the effort in to go back and read up on all the Lore. Are there many of those types of DMs/Players out there playing 4e, I don't think so (I know personally I haven't gone too deep, which 4e FR allows me to get away with, but I still want a game in FR that is compatible with the Canon).
-And, here we disagree again. You make it sound as if going back and reading up on things is/was some kind of horrible, extremely difficult task, that only the bravest of the brave even attempt, and that only the fortunate and lucky actually succeeded in. If this was the case, the Forgotten Realms would never have gotten off the ground, with no one being able to actually "get through the shield" protecting it. Same thing with Star Wars: No one would, because of the large amount of information it has, understand things, and therefore, like the universe. Or Star Trek. Or the Lord of the Rings. Or the television show ER. Or X-Men comic books. Or sports teams. Or the Suikoden video game series. Or hundreds of other things. These things would have no followings, because no one would be able to follow them. But, yet, they do. And, they're not all "Comic Book Guys". There's 'hardcore' fans, there's 'fair weather' fans, and everything in-between. If someone likes the Forgotten Realms, and wants to learn more about...Lantan- since I answered someone's question about it in another thread- they have the FRCS. If they want more, there's more in, say, Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue. If they still want more, there's more here, or there...
Sure you're right if someone was *that* interested in D&D/FR they would put the effort in to go back and read up on all the Lore.
My view is that people who are only passingly interested in FR don't need to go back and read everything. They can start a perfectly good game with what they get in the campaign setting. For people who are interested, then yes, it takes effort to find all the old books, but it is worth it for every one you find. I can't imagine there being anyone out there who is not interested in the Realms, but wants to read everything ever written about it. It doesn't make sense to waste your time, you'll never like it. That's why I think that rebooting the setting to reduce the amount of information is turning it into something other than FR. It is appealing mostly to people who didn't like it before, and it takes away the fun that the people who liked it before had from knowing all kinds of little details that they can throw into their campaign. It is a lose-lose situation because, for anyone who was passingly interested in FR before, they won't be able to get the same feel that the setting had before, and for those who loved it and searched for as much lore as they could find about it, a lot of that lore is now obsolete.
I suppose I just broke the title of the thread...oops.
Well every group's setting is personal to the group and the DM that runs it. The reason I was posting originally was to actually back up some of the people that enjoy the 4E setting (and by extension the 4e game itself). I'm certainly not here to say that post/pre/non spellplague settings are superior over another.
And, I appreciate that. I'm just trying to add another perspective (specifically my own, but my experiences haven't been unique).
Bottom line really is with all the padding that existed in the pre/non spellplague realms it was too much of a catchup for anyone wanting to invest into the realms without doing a FR history course.
I never took any such course (where and when are they offered, by the way?). You make it sound as if learning about a setting one is interested in is drudgery. I can't speak for everyone, but it wasn't that way for me.
I also never felt like I had to "catch up" to anyone.I think that is underlined when follow up posts talk about people who have been invested into FR for 6-7 years as 'whippersnappers'
Only if you ignore the posts by people who entered into the hobby even later than I did.
I too figured the line was meant as a joke, anyway...
I'm happy to say that I will invest my D&D time into FR and bring a bunch of new players to FR in a post-Spellplague game world.
Well, I hope you have fun with that.
Sure you're right if someone was *that* interested in D&D/FR they would put the effort in to go back and read up on all the Lore. Are there many of those types of DMs/Players out there playing 4e, I don't think so (I know personally I haven't gone too deep, which 4e FR allows me to get away with, but I still want a game in FR that is compatible with the Canon).
Eh, did you know you don't actually have to know about every single bit of published information to play in and enjoy the setting? There's a ton of stuff I still don't know, and it doesn't bother me.
I was a bit worried about the large amounts of information available or needed for FR. I don't know why I was, perhaps it was the long history, or more likely the (ill-deserved) reputation. But then, I felt much the same way as Eberron, which already had a half-dozen sourcebooks by then, and isn't so self-contained that you can just potter around a small area - it demands world-spanning adventure. I considered the two; I chose FR.
I adopted another DM's game, set in the Vast, a nice self-contained region, without a lot of history. I only needed the FRCS and the City Of Ravens Bluff, available for free from the WotC website, for all my Vast needs. It was only my own growing fascination and obsessiveness that led to track down as much as I could learn about it. It filled in a few plothooks, created some more, but didn't change my view of the region any. That was optional.
Now I've explored and DMed other FR games, set in more detailed areas, and found these were not so daunting either.
I think of FR as a fractal - a mathematical shape where you zoom in and find the same shape replicated. You can look at FR on a wide-scale, general view, and get a good impression of what's going and what it's about. Or, you can zoom in, and get, well, the same. More detail, but not ultimately any more than you got on first view. (More on fractals: consider how you get the good land, the bad land, the chaotic land in each general area, then zoom in, and find the good city, the bad city, the chaotic city in each region. Then the large-scale faction, the regional faction, the single-city faction. The history, from fallen kingdoms centuries past, to fallen empires millennia past, to the fallen pre-human nations aeons ago. The setting is replicated from the local scale to the wide scale.)
Worlds within worlds. The more you look, the more you find, as in all things. But that doesn't change what you see.
I think of FR as a fractal - a mathematical shape where you zoom in and find the same shape replicated. You can look at FR on a wide-scale, general view, and get a good impression of what's going and what it's about. Or, you can zoom in, and get, well, the same. More detail, but not ultimately any more than you got on first view. (More on fractals: consider how you get the good land, the bad land, the chaotic land in each general area, then zoom in, and find the good city, the bad city, the chaotic city in each region. Then the large-scale faction, the regional faction, the single-city faction. The history, from fallen kingdoms centuries past, to fallen empires millennia past, to the fallen pre-human nations aeons ago. The setting is replicated from the local scale to the wide scale.)
Worlds within worlds. The more you look, the more you find, as in all things. But that doesn't change what you see.
-That's a good analogy to use.
I think that is underlined when follow up posts talk about people who have been invested into FR for 6-7 years as 'whippersnappers'
That was a crack at their ages, not their time invested in the Realms... you bunch of little wet-behind-the-ears-punks take this stuff way too seriously. :P
By the by, if I'm being serious, you'll probably see a wall of text, not a throwaway line. ;)
I'm good man, all I'm saying is "try to relax a lil" I miss the ol Dokkie
Well, it would be easier if I had an Asimaarhole like you around to be stupid with. As is, I am left all by me Dookie self.
It's not fair!! You poke your ex and I poke myself in the eye arguing with myself.
Pointing at yourself when angry with you is bad advice, by the way. I highly suggest not doing it.
As soon as he finds Mrtyl he'll lighten up. That crazy woman is nowhere to be found.Dont worry Judge I'll use my speshial ranger skillsh to help you find her.
Slackin’ as usual. I already had Mrtyl’s sister, Myldrid, get me my fix.
But thanks. If I ever die and need you to save my life, I’ll be sure to call.
Wow I feel old. I actually stopped playing around 1991(no one around to play anymore) and it's been strictly novels ever since. And yes my first characters were a RAS clone and a Hickman Weis clone. (Assasin (entreri) and a kender(tasslehoff))
Same deal—though a couple of years later. I feel your pain, my man.
Late 80's here... bunch of little whippersnappers.
Perhaps one wouldn't feel the requirement to point out the old complaints repeatedly about the old realms if certain people wouldn't keep continually bringing up the same complaints about the new realms (which are, coincidentally often the opposite point to something done previously: EG killing off high level NPCs)?
Just a thought.
My suggestion? Stop thinking. You'd have to have a 288 IQ to figure this dilemma out. And only then if you had some cake to eat and a rat to throw ping-pong balls at.
It really is that complicated.
And, I appreciate that.
And I appreciate your multi-quote posts. Good job! ;)
My suggestion? Stop thinking. You'd have to have a 288 IQ to figure this dilemma out. And only then if you had some cake to eat and a rat to throw ping-pong balls at.
It really is that complicated.
Sadly, it does appear to be for some people.
What the hell do you expect--a miracle?
And I appreciate your multi-quote posts. Good job! ;)
It's not that hard.;)
It's not that hard.;)
Yet, I so rarely see you doing it, my dear.
Did we suddenly find some Red Bull? :D