18DELTA (A very Happy Chosen of Cyric!) :evillaugh
Because if this is actually the canon we are being presented with then I am for once rendered speechless. Well. Not quite speechless but I don't want to imperil my posting privileges here.
Apoplexy doesn't even begin to describe it.
I just went and got the book! Made that guy at the store search for 15 minutes just to find it. [sarcasm]-You heretic's just don't understand the Greatness that is Cyric! May the One have mercy on your souls and forgive your Heresies.[/sarcasm]
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric, Cyric The One who smacked Mystra upside the noggin and kilt her dead!) :D :D :D :D
You are pulling my leg, right Karazhan? This is a late halloween prank?
Because if this is actually the canon we are being presented with then I am for once rendered speechless. Well. Not quite speechless but I don't want to imperil my posting privileges here.
Apoplexy doesn't even begin to describe it.
I'm sorry Iluvrien but I am not pulling your leg. Aliisza has a vision in the cave of Savras and witnesses the entire thing through the eyes of the priestess Kashada (who is explained to be a part of Shar created so she could be in 2 places at the same time). She has the ability to stop the entire thing but of course can not. Savras' absence is not explained (as he would have also shared the vision and the ability to stop the events). Mystra and Azuth are also portrayed as idiots who allow their greatest enemies to enter and destroy them with no defense or retribution. If this is the stupidity of the gods Shar would have slain them all long long ago.
So we're to believe that's how it really happened. I mean the vision is through the eyes of an Avatar of Shar. I woulnd't be surprised if it happened some other way and this is just Shar's meddling to make Mystra look like a total incompentent diety.
Grazel,
No that is really how it happened. Aliisza saw the event through Kashada's eyes yes, but then the events played out exactly that way. The vision took days to see, and then Aliisza was not able to change the event from happening. They are truly portraying Mystra and Azuth and the entire plane and inhabitants of Dweomerheart as incompetent. The thing that gets me is..they punish Cyric..but people who survived know that Shar was there too...so why did she escape any punishment as well...I should know better than to try and make sense of things.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric!)
I personally wouldn't hand-out writing assignments to 'special' people, but I think it sure is nice of them to do so.
Hmmm. I was expecting something... different.
What?
You expected, maybe...... GOOD, perhaps?
Cheers!
I adored Aliisza as she developed through the War of the Spider Queen novels. Adored the character. But I never made it past the first chapter of the Gossamer Plain. But by this point I haven't bothered with FR in over a year, so I'm well past the point of being upset over this, because I've given up on the setting (which used to be one of my favorites).
This canon explanation defies all lore, any common sense, and has so many holes it's laughable.
*sigh* Well, I can't say I would have been pleased by any explanation of this particular plot device, so...
To be fair, Shar does have a history as a "Dark Dancer"--not saying the above scenario makes sense, though.
I'm glad to see that WotC has a strong Affirmative Action program in place.
I personally wouldn't hand-out writing assignments to 'special' people, but I think it sure is nice of them to do so.
What?
You expected, maybe...... GOOD, perhaps?
Markus, you crack me up ...:D
-- George Krashos
I... uhhh...!... who am I kidding, that sucks! I would have accepted stealing Azuth's staff, thats not a terrible idea and might explain how Cyric got onto the plane without being detected and how he killed her so easily. I understand why Savras couldn't act, its his job to see the future, not change it. I'm sure he wanted to, but then what he saw isn't the future. Its sort of a chicken/egg scenario, he can't change things or else what he saw wasn't the future and it has to be since he saw it. (Its late, it makes sense to me but probably no one else, sorry)
But Mystra saw him and turned her back...! I... who.... what.... why!?!?
Personally, I liked that Mystra died, I liked that the pantheon got switched up a bit (it was getting stale), I liked that evil is now on an even playing field as good, but that explanation is beyond stupid.
I have to say it, and it pains me since this is by far my favorite setting: I was hoping for something good, but expected something like this.
Would anyone EVER take their eyes off an insane deity of MURDER?
I thought the stuff with Mystra, Shar and Cyric was dumb in outline. To hear more details it sounds even worse.
I would say I'm in shock but the 4E realms has had me in a mind frame of embittered resignation.
I mean really... come on, this has to be a joke... even I didn't think they could come up with something so completely retarded.
No... no... the original poster is Karazhan, so it's not a joke.
Wow. New low. But again, it speaks to the overall quality of the "New Realms". We've gone from the pure awesomeness of Elaine Cunningham to... this. Just pathetic.
Seriously?
I mean really... come on, this has to be a joke... even I didn't think they could come up with something so completely retarded.
No... no... the original poster is Karazhan, so it's not a joke.
Wow. New low. But again, it speaks to the overall quality of the "New Realms". We've gone from the pure awesomeness of Elaine Cunningham to... this. Just pathetic.
>< I can tell a joke!!! :D But ya even I wouldn't tell a joke like this!
>< I can tell a joke!!! :D But ya even I wouldn't tell a joke like this!
Oh, I know! Heh, I didn't mean it that way. I meant that you've always been honest and up-front.
lol I know! But ya this is beyond even an episode of the Twilight Zone.
Mystra: death by stick. It boggles the mind how this could've seemed like a good idea, but honestly, it explains a LOT about the design team!
LOL!Curious.
Indeed.
[sarcasm]-You heretic's just don't understand the Greatness that is Cyric! May the One have mercy on your souls and forgive your Heresies.[/sarcasm]
Yeah, and this Greatness is imprisoned within his own little realm. And in a few years, I'm sure oblivion will take him, and no one will even know his name.
So, to quote ripvanwormer, 'Everyone fear the Dark Lord Cecil! Er, Cyril. I mean Cyric.' :D
Btw, regarding the topic, it's just another piece of 'lore' I can easily disregard.
Is the Fractured Sky the sequal to the Glossamer Plane? (I think thats the name.) If so I guess i was right about Mystra's death occuring in that series.
Both Mystra and Helm's deaths are featured.
No, Mystra actually was the one who allowed him to be free of the staff Azuth trapped him in. As for why he should care..hmmm no deity of magic..no weave..no weave..no divinations..no divinations...no Savras. Savras needed Mystra for many reasons. I am not taking into account the retcon that no weave is now needed for magic to work. I am operating under the knowledge he would have had at the time. Also, Savras should have cared as hmm.. it led to his DEATH.
Cheers!
Perhaps not. What if he saw that in letting this happen a greater catastrophe was averted?
Perhaps not. What if he saw that in letting this happen a greater catastrophe was averted?
Maybe.....Oooor the people riding the horse now are somehow not cutting it.:P
I don't care either way, My "official" canon ended more or less with the retuned of the elves to Myth Drannor (It feels right for me somehow)
I say just spin it however you want for your game. If you are just a novel fan you are a bit screwed though.
...More than somewhat, sir.
Thanks for noticing though :D .
Yeah, and this Greatness is imprisoned within his own little realm. And in a few years, I'm sure oblivion will take him, and no one will even know his name.
So, to quote ripvanwormer, 'Everyone fear the Dark Lord Cecil! Er, Cyril. I mean Cyric.' :D
Btw, regarding the topic, it's just another piece of 'lore' I can easily disregard.
-
:D 18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric!) :evillaugh
Perhaps not. What if he saw that in letting this happen a greater catastrophe was averted?
You mean the release of 4e?
Too Late. :P
18DELTA (Chosen of His Grace, Cyric!!!) :embarrass
Show
-Yes the sweet irony, Mystra trapped in the Supreme Throne with Cyric for 1000 years. Maybe WotC will use that story line to release her in time for 8E! [;)]
-Maybe thats why Shar could "block" a new God of Magic being Named, cause the overgod knows she still exist's. Thats who is in Elminsters mind, crying out for release and freedom! Think out side the box people. Or is it just easier to bash WotC. Think about it. This would make a great Epic 3E OR 4E quest. Heck those that still play 1E AND 2E could use it too! [:D]
Originally posted by Na-Gang
[br]Originally posted by Arioch
[br][:H] [W][?!:]
I don't have "Fractured sky" so: it was simply the attack that destroyed Mystra or her death is somehow related to the imprisonment effect of the Old Staff?
That's true... maybe she's just imprisoned in it like Savras used to be...
-Yes the sweet irony, Mystra trapped in the Supreme Throne with Cyric for 1000 years. Maybe WotC will use that story line to release her in time for 8E! [;)]
-Maybe thats why Shar could "block" a new God of Magic being Named, cause the overgod knows she still exist's. Thats who is in Elminsters mind, crying out for release and freedom! Think out side the box people. Or is it just easier to bash WotC. Think about it. This would make a great Epic 3E OR 4E quest. Heck those that still play 1E AND 2E could use it too! [:D]
Now, here I am a year later, I've given up on the novel line. I don't know if these are directives from above or what is going on, but I just don't understand how authors that I like, such as Richard Lee Byers and Thomas Reid, end up writing stories where Bane is summoned by someone that had a hard time binding a Demon Lord, let alone a Greater God, and Mystra gets divinely sneak attacked because she forgot that Cyric wants to kill her.
I am so glad that I have Pathfinder to turn to at this point.
So far the 4E novels have been so bad.....I am definitely not picking this garbage up.
Exactly. The original story made more sense.
This canon explanation defies all lore, any common sense, and has so many holes it's laughable.
Cyric and Shar, yes, they can.
Say it is not so....Lord Cyric!!!! ;) 18DELTA (Blessed by the Slayer of Mystra, Cyric!) :P
Both Mystra and Helm's deaths are featured.
Would you be able to give us spoilers about Helm's death?
SPOILER............sort of
Helm's death is not truly covered in detail as was Mystra's. What the author does is use the landscape and surroundings to reflect the deities strife and arguments. For example, the Triad's home shakes with the strength of the feud/anger between Tyr and Helm. Then they pretty much say that everything gets quiet...because Helm was killed by Tyr. They also do not go into much detail as to how or why (other than the possibility that Cyric is behind it because neither deity ever acts this bloodthirsty). It goes a little deeper and I do not want to ruin that, but in no way is it as detailed as the idiotic clubbing death of Mystra and the gape jawed Azuth.
18DELTA (Blinded by Cyric!)
They have truly re-defined the word 'awful'.
I am so glad that I have Pathfinder to turn to at this point.
That's what I use in my Realms.
CPSC sort of Cannon
Show
Crack-Pipe Smoking Canon
I've been saying it for just over a year now - don't read the FR novels, they'll just rot your brain. Compared to them, the National Enquirer it literature.
-Unless those books are about Lord Cyric!
Talk about rotting your brain, just look at me. :heehee 18DELTA (Blinded by Cyric!) ;)
Wow. Is that really what happened? I havent gotten up to reading this one yet but I dont think Ill even bother. I havent read the avatar trilogy yet but I know some of the avatars die. Are their deaths "stupid" like whats going on here? Let me know because I wont read those books if they are. From reading other newer books I already know what happens so.
Yes, the story is very "stupid". Helm dies fighting Tyr over his differing views on Tymora and Mystra dies by having Azuth's staff cracked over her head..
SPOILERSSSS
Concerning Helm: Ilmater leaves triad, Tyr tries to replace him, Helm disagrees with his motivation behind such a notion as replacing him with Tymora, they fight. Cyric's role is not detailed but i assume could have been him using reverse psychology or anything like that that would convince Tyr it's a good idea. Just talk, that's all it takes. Anyway, they fight and can't decide who's right, and the stronger guy wins.
The Vision and Mystra's death: It is only a vision, and what ACTUALLY transpired wasn't identical to the vision at all, the people in the room didn't even match up. Personally i believe it was just a representation of what would happen in the future, but in a nutshell. Because in the vision, Aliisza steals the staff FROM A GOD WHO WASN'T IN THE ROOM, and hands it to CYRIC WHO WASN'T IN THE ROOM. Yet the PHYSICAL, NON-VISION events involved Aliisza doing nothing of that sort, and with the aid of Pharaun's Ring of Wizardry and Amazing IV, saw an avatar of Shar standing behind Kashada with a staff-like object. Nothing like the vision.
I've of course left out other details concernign other characters but they are better to read during the book.
Basically, you never know what's happened until the series is done. Who knows, it might still be a vision of one of the others'. We never did get to see them. Think on that one. ;)
I like to treat the FR novels like EBerron novels are treated now. Something to read for entertainment, fluff for campaigns, ideas for players and things like that. I try not to worry too much about the canon aspects any more.
I must say I might have been fully of "nerdrage" or (whatever it is called by some )about the changes about five years ago. Things change though.
Think he's referring to the Time of Troubles era Avatar Trilogy actually...
Ah yes, my bad. Remind me not to post that late again. I would say their deaths were more believable during the ToT because they were confined to mortal forms and lessened in power so conventional means of death..stabbing, disintegration, etc. were plausable.
I'd be happy to post a spoiler as you asked nicely
Thanks so much for your answer.
ShowConcerning Helm: Ilmater leaves triad, Tyr tries to replace him, Helm disagrees with his motivation behind such a notion as replacing him with Tymora, they fight.
Compared to the 20 years of Realms history, its atrocious.
It's official. The Shattered Realms is worse then the World of Synnibarr.
and at first, I read the designer's name as 'Raven McCrackhead'.
And I thought, "Well... that makes sense..." :D
Really, how bad was it?
Now I'm dying to look at it just to see if it can truly be worse then 4eFR.
Edit:
This Review is just one awsome read and funny as hell.
Edit2:
WotC's stupid re-direct feature is messing with the link, so you'll have to copy & paste - its worth it, though.
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_4762.html
So: Synnibarr's taken over by drakes, the first of which - a paradrake - was discovered by "Lord Midnight and his 72-headed chameleon hydra". His hydra army kills him, rules for 26,000 years until they massacre two million humans, at which point the drakes rebel in the Great Rebellion of the Drakes and fight the hydras for another 24,000 years. Synnibarr arrives at the new homeworld, Shalom, but thanks to an intelligence-reducing plague, nobody gets off. In between the launching of Synnibarr and their arrival, there's two alien invasions, three invasions by Dark Powers, endless wars, vampire lords, Shadow Warriors, pure psionics, numerous catastrophes that destroy civilization and drop humanity's numbers by ludicrous figures, weremen, Aquarians, Biogladites, and me giggling under my breath at how silly the whole thing is.
That leaves me speechless.
The Staff Rogue!!!
Watch (or don't if you fail your spot) as the rogue sneaks up on you and decapitates you with a staff!
...
...
Yeah...
It's been recently disclosed that an upcoming novel will reveal Lord Ao as actually being the weakest avatar of Chuck Norris. You have been warned.
As for that new fluff
I'm glad my group decided to use our own world for 4e. WotC's just sounds incredibly stupid IMHO
Links hate me... but that is a great name. As for that summary... wow. Just wow...
Which name?
Synnabarr? Cinnabar was directly lifted from Mystara's Red Steel campaign setting.
The guy couldn't create an original name if his life depended on it, and saying the material sound's like a 12 year old's wetdream is insulting to 12 year old's everywhere.
More like a five year old, sounds like
Given the rest of the lore currently available for the Shattered Realms, this makes perfect sense! Infact, its some of the best stuff we have.
Compared to the 20 years of Realms history, its atrocious.
It's official. The Shattered Realms is worse then the World of Synnibarr.
Shattered Realms... hmm... indeed, I suppose the term "Forgotten Realms" should be limited to 1-3e only. 4e's realms should be called something else... something different.
Shattered Realms... hmm... indeed, I suppose the term "Forgotten Realms" should be limited to 1-3e only. 4e's realms should be called something else... something different.
Indeed, I agree.
Though I can't take credit for 'Shattered Realms'. That's Wooly Ruperts way of referring to it, over on Candlekeep.
Ooooopps... :embarrass
shadow realms
and a few other things people could think of would fit...
as well as unimaginative, to much like ebersux, caters to wowtards
and an empty bottle of Tylenol
work well too.
That's not even spectacularly stupid, that just sounds so... dumb. Are they even trying any more?
I haven't read the original Avatar series yet - wasn't Cyric Midnight's stalker or something? Why would she turn her back on him?
Which name?
Raven McCracken would be the name I was referring to.
It just appeals to me for some reason... might have to use it somewhere for something one day.
But instead of a Parrot that says "Polly want a cracker (Kraken?)", she has a raven that says "nevermore". :P
Maybe we could have a new word added to the American Dictionary -
Synnabarric: When something is presented in such a ludicrous and haphazard fashion it makes 'Jumping the Shark' look almost believable.
Usage: "Mystra's death was truly Synnabarric."
The Misbegotten Realms? :D
That's not even spectacularly stupid, that just sounds so... dumb. Are they even trying any more?
I haven't read the original Avatar series yet - wasn't Cyric Midnight's stalker or something? Why would she turn her back on him?
There is no reason imaginable that she would. Certainly not because of some mortal squabbling in the background. Which begs the question..where were ANY of her followers on the plane? Anyway, more to the point yes Cyric has tried to kill her on Multiple occasions. No way she'd even go near him much less take her eyes off him.
Of course Cyric might have taken over someones body. Someone the goddess trusts implicitly, someone who is now quite insane, and mumbles a lot about betrayal. Of course who am I kidding the novels have a habit of delivering craptacular results, why expect anything else.
I prefer to consider things in terms of whose novels rather than the novels when deciding which ones deliver "craptacular" results.
According to canon, she is 100% aware of everything that transpires within her divine realm.
The author was obviously smokin' to much McCracken. :P
Perhaps what really happened was that Shar manipulated Cyric to help her muder Mystra (hence the dancing). Then Cyric manipulated and schemed to use Azuth to sneak into her domain and kill Mystra (hence the staff).
See what happens when the imagination gets to work and the knee doesn't jerk so much? ;)
Or perhaps other people aren't working hard enough?
Its like my old Manager used to tell me - "I don't want excuses, I want results." I had somethig else here, but I thought better of it.
Not that I even give a damn if I get banned or not anymore. I'll be starting my own website soon with Free maps of my world and free campaign materials - I'm tired of being shackled to inferior material.
-I can't wait for the kneejerk reaction that will happen when the next Cale book comes out.
:headexplo 
:hoppingma . I would have figured that people wouldn't get so upset anymore about what WotC has done or is doing to the Realms. I mean we have had around what almost 15 months to learn who to deal with the changes in hopefully a constructive manner. No we have a pointless edition war. I support the Realms no matter what edition it is. I am done with this nonsense. If you want to talk the Realms, lets do it, if not then don't waste mine or your time. Thank you and have a nice day! 18DELTA (The Chosen of Cyric, that needs to get some sleep because The Chosen of Cyric has a busy day tomorrow!) ;)
I think I'd have called it more of a pointless edition war, but that could just be me...
-The Chosen of Cyric agrees. So the Chosen of Cyric edited his last post.
18DELTA (The One who is Blinded by Cyric's Light!) ;)
When you need to flesh-out, add to, embelish, or even just 'make adjustements' to published lore, perhaps we are working a bit too hard just to enjoy it?
Or perhaps other people aren't working hard enough?
Its like my old Manager used to tell me - "I don't want excuses, I want results." I had somethig else here, but I thought better of it.
Not that I even give a damn if I get banned or not anymore. I'll be starting my own website soon with Free maps of my world and free campaign materials - I'm tired of being shackled to inferior material.
Actually, if we truly don't care, we would've been long gone (like GothicDan). A more accurate definition of people like us would be infuriated spectres that haunt their desecrated former domain.
When you need to flesh-out, add to, embelish, or even just 'make adjustements' to published lore, perhaps we are working a bit too hard just to enjoy it?
Or perhaps other people aren't working hard enough?
Its like my old Manager used to tell me - "I don't want excuses, I want results." I had somethig else here, but I thought better of it.
Not that I even give a damn if I get banned or not anymore. I'll be starting my own website soon with Free maps of my world and free campaign materials - I'm tired of being shackled to inferior material.
Again, perhaps are coming but later down the road. Perhaps the real story will never be fully explained. My comments were not about how we can embellish on "missing" info but how a vision viewed by a mortal about an incident dealing with deities can be just that, a vision and not really what happened.
If she witnessed the real event perhaps her mind would turn to sludge or perhaps she would not see that Cyric and Shar were behind it all but she would see Mystra dying of something and not knowing why it happened. Perhaps they orcherstrated some event that would destroy something that would kill her, or somehow poisoned one of her minions into killing her or something. We do not truely know though since it seems as if what she saw was just a vision.
I hope for Azuth's sake it was at least a lap dance since he ended up as Asmodious' dinner because of it.
I... uhhh...!... who am I kidding, that sucks! I would have accepted stealing Azuth's staff, thats not a terrible idea and might explain how Cyric got onto the plane without being detected and how he killed her so easily. I understand why Savras couldn't act, its his job to see the future, not change it. I'm sure he wanted to, but then what he saw isn't the future. Its sort of a chicken/egg scenario, he can't change things or else what he saw wasn't the future and it has to be since he saw it. (Its late, it makes sense to me but probably no one else, sorry)
But Mystra saw him and turned her back...! I... who.... what.... why!?!?
Personally, I liked that Mystra died, I liked that the pantheon got switched up a bit (it was getting stale), I liked that evil is now on an even playing field as good, but that explanation is beyond stupid.
I have to say it, and it pains me since this is by far my favorite setting: I was hoping for something good, but expected something like this.
/signed
-The Chosen of Cyric agrees. So the Chosen of Cyric edited his last post.
Who is this ominous wannabe Chosen of Cyric? Does he frequent these boards? Should we know this guy at all? Hm, well, probably not. :P
As Stanley said before, it seems to be a vision of what happened. A mortal had the vision even so who knows what truly took place. She may not have been able to truely comprehend the actual godlike event so she saw it in a way her little mortal brain could muster.
Perhaps what really happened was that Shar manipulated Cyric to help her muder Mystra (hence the dancing). Then Cyric manipulated and schemed to use Azuth to sneak into her domain and kill Mystra (hence the staff).
See what happens when the imagination gets to work and the knee doesn't jerk so much? ;)
Actually it's what happens when you read the book :P . If you're saying that the books now need to be interpreted then I suppose that fits with the no information, bare bones approach of 4e. However, until any author says that I will stick to reading the words they wrote.
Who is this ominous wannabe Chosen of Cyric? Does he frequent these boards? Should we know this guy at all? Hm, well, probably not. :P
-Mock me at thine own peril. :P
18DELTA (The Chosen of the One who desecrated Mystra's former domain. Cyric!)
P.S. I am only playing so please don't report me.
;)Those characteristics happen to apply to me and my FR groups. The Realms have changed for the better. The Realms history was just too complicated, and we didn't need thousands of gods. I'm probably going to be insulted in every way possible, and even ways that are IMpossible, but that's just my two SP. GO 4e, and GO 4e Realms :embarrass
You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
I was just making a point that the novels might make the more hardcore FR players think worse of the Realms. I mean, isn't it all based off of a game? Sure, the novels are inspired, written by inspired people, and provide good campaign ideas, but they're still novels, not gameplay material. My other point was, there are the people who just really don't care or knows what goes on in the novels, who are only concerned with how 4.0 changed the Realms, and that such characteristics apply to me and a lot of my gaming groups.
...But I do stand behind the point that the Realms pre-3.0 were just too...complicated. I'm glad the Spellplague came and gone, because now its a clean plate (for the most part). I'd rather have a clean plate than a jumble of chicken legs, pizzas, and mushrooms.
...Although I'll be honest, the fashion of Mystra's demise is...haphazard.
I thought Cyric was only worshipped by Gibbering Mouthers.
-Thats only on Wednesday.
18DELTA (Chosen of the God that Fractured the Sky...Cyric!) :embarrass
Also, visions are by nature symbolic; details don't matter so much as overall truth. Shar probably wasn't actually dancing, but that's a metaphor Alisszra's mind could comprehend.
Well, this is disappointing news for hardcore FR people, but it's ultimately irrelevant to people who either don't read the novels or just don't care.
Well, at least we can agree on this one point.
Everyone is a lot better off avoiding the novels altogether. :D
P.S. I am only playing so please don't report me.
Well, uhm, I guess it's too late now... :D
Anyway, on the other hand, I really appreciate it that most of those ascended mortals are gone now. I never liked the fact that they went straight on from nothing to greater deity status (although those special guys are still around).
Well, at least we can agree on this one point.
Everyone is a lot better off avoiding the novels altogether. :D
Not blooming likely. I am about 4 chapters into "The Sword Never Sleeps" and it is a joy. If I wasn't reading this I would be concentrating on a long boring thesis. You aren't going to convince me that I am not better off the way I am :D .
I'm with Rauric: I just finished the book over the weekend, and I had no trouble believing that what Alisszra saw was very much a filtered and distorted view of what went down. The series itself is interesting in that, unlike a lot of previous books, the gods are repeatedly shown and said to be inscrutable and in many ways unknowable even to devas and solars and priests. Lesser minds just aren't equipped to handle the gods' awesomeness or complexity.
Also, visions are by nature symbolic; details don't matter so much as overall truth. Shar probably wasn't actually dancing, but that's a metaphor Alisszra's mind could comprehend.
The deities were neither awesome nor complex in the novel. Remember, in 4e the gods are no longer as all-mighty or knowing as they had been portrayed in the past. Heck, Helm dies because of a spat over Tymora and Mystra got clubbed. In terms of any interpretation to the vision, let's remember that the events started to replay as Alisszra saw them and tried to prevent.
In any event, the fact is that Shar got a hold of Azuth's staff (through some act of control over Azuth) passed it to Cyric, and Cyric used it. If this were a game of Clue, the general points could be argued (possibly) but is was Professor Cyric in the solarium of Dweomerheart with a staff.
Well I assume that was aimed at me because it might have appeared that I was inviting people to attack me. In such a case...
I was just making a point that the novels might make the more hardcore FR players think worse of the Realms. I mean, isn't it all based off of a game? Sure, the novels are inspired, written by inspired people, and provide good campaign ideas, but they're still novels, not gameplay material. My other point was, there are the people who just really don't care or knows what goes on in the novels, who are only concerned with how 4.0 changed the Realms, and that such characteristics apply to me and a lot of my gaming groups.
...But I do stand behind the point that the Realms pre-3.0 were just too...complicated. I'm glad the Spellplague came and gone, because now its a clean plate (for the most part). I'd rather have a clean plate than a jumble of chicken legs, pizzas, and mushrooms.
...Although I'll be honest, the fashion of Mystra's demise is...haphazard.
Point taken and I'm sure others felt as you did. While that is totally valid, I think that I would describe the pre-4e Realms as being complex and detailed. I think anyone thrown into any setting with the expectation of having to know everything quickly would be overwhelmed. However, in no setting I have ever been in was there the expectation that the DM (or players) had to know everything. That is the whole idea behind the knowledge skill. If you have it, you know some things depending on your skill level. As you gain experience, you add more knowledge. That is how I also see any game evolving. You pick the starting point as DM, use the available supplement to build and make that area come to life for your players. As they travel to new locations, you can add more supplements if you choose that already exist or you can make up your own lore.
Well, this is disappointing news for hardcore FR people, but it's ultimately irrelevant to people who either don't read the novels or just don't care.
Those characteristics happen to apply to me and my FR groups. The Realms have changed for the better. The Realms history was just too complicated, and we didn't need thousands of gods. I'm probably going to be insulted in every way possible, and even ways that are IMpossible, but that's just my two SP. GO 4e, and GO 4e Realms :embarrass
What history do you see as being gone? Netheril is back, Imaskar is back (high and low), Sarrukh are back, Elves are back in force, Aberrations have returned, etc. The history is now more alive in the Realms than it was when it was the Forgotten Realms. IMO they're are more questions now because players can see these peoples in the flesh and ask questions that never would have come up before.
Designers DESIGN... wannabe's copy other people's work.
And the past is what made FR GREAT - bringing it back just ruins the whole thing.
"The Fractured Sky" - what a perfect concept to hang over the Shattered Realms.
It is what it is... everything beautiful eventually fades, its one of those sad facts of life. Eventually though, something else will come along until it too dies on the vine.
Personally, I put it down to a soap opera approach towards settings and characters, where you get this ever-escalating series of atrocities until they don't even resemble themselves anymore, when perhaps an incremental approach and concentrating on some other aspect would probably have served better... shifting focus might be a good way of putting it... so that nothing gets done to death. I think Elminster, The Seven Sisters, and Mystra are a fairly good example of this really... had they ignored them after a few books, and switched off to tales of the other personalities of the Realms like Piergeiron, Texter, Mintiper, or the like while keeping all of the stories fairly low-key, I doubt we'd see the backlash against them. Doubt that'll ever happen though, given the tendency of businesses to milk an idea for all they're worth.
Feeling a tad bit pessimistic are we?
I have my good days and I have my bad. :P
For some reason, people defending all the 4e changes are really getting under my skin today. Its like when you have to listen to some defense attorney explain why his client beat some old lady to death with a crowbar -
"Its not really his fault, you see, he's a victim of society, and he felt threatened by that old lady... the real criminal is the guy who just left that crowbar laying around..."
You just get tired of hearing people make excuses for them, more so, I think, then all the wining that used to go on (but has lately wound way down, thank god).
*****ing and moaning I can take, but lame excuses for lame lore gets old fast.
I don't really view it as an excuse, so much as an alternate point of view... opinions on the lore produced are entirely subjective afterall, and one man's thistle is another man's grand meal. Some people may genuinely like the new Realms, so I see no real reason to disparage their opinions on it beyond being spiteful and malicious. Of course, the inverse is also true...
and that is kinda true, from a certain point a view.- some jedi
i will give those that the fr was to detailed, it was,mind you my only experience was iwd series, bg series and nwn series.
and it is detaileled in that since , take an idea and run with it.
but some of what they changed im not buying into.
and some of it is to cliche for words.
dm: oh look, they killed mystra.
players: not again, thats the third time now.
dm: and look, azuth, velsharoon, and savras are dead too. dm grins.
players: get him!!!
same old same old, the FR was same old to some, not so to tothers.
what is same old gets older fast, but not as fast as a cliche death.
1 2 skip a few
3 4 skip some more
5 6 gets some licks
7 8 dont be late
dont mind me, i lost it and should go of to bed.
What history do you see as being gone? Netheril is back, Imaskar is back (high and low), Sarrukh are back, Elves are back in force, Aberrations have returned, etc. The history is now more alive in the Realms than it was when it was the Forgotten Realms. IMO they're are more questions now because players can see these peoples in the flesh and ask questions that never would have come up before.
It's a type of lame all-star thing they are trying. Old plot elements that were supposed to be just for background history are brought in just because there isn't much imagination around. Sounds more like a last ditch attempt to increase sales and there is nothing creative about it.
I was just making a point that the novels might make the more hardcore FR players think worse of the Realms. I mean, isn't it all based off of a game?
Actually, the Realms was a story setting before it became a D&D setting.
...But I do stand behind the point that the Realms pre-3.0 were just too...complicated.
Insofar as that's the impression you got, you don't have to "stand behind the point". If you think your opinion applies to everyone, then you would have to argue the point.
Also, visions are by nature symbolic; details don't matter so much as overall truth. Shar probably wasn't actually dancing, but that's a metaphor Alisszra's mind could comprehend.
Well, as I pointed out, Shar does literally dance, or at least she has an avatar that does.
I don't really view it as an excuse, so much as an alternate point of view... opinions on the lore produced are entirely subjective afterall, and one man's thistle is another man's grand meal. Some people may genuinely like the new Realms, so I see no real reason to disparage their opinions on it beyond being spiteful and malicious. Of course, the inverse is also true...
Point taken.
I think it's this site - I have absolutely NO problem with anything 4e when I'm 'elsewhere', and even start defending it, but then I come here and after reading a few threads I find myself wanting to gather some villagers holding torches and pitchforks.
Thanks for setting me straight.
:P:P
:D
Well, as I pointed out, Shar does literally dance, or at least she has an avatar that does.
Exactly! The Dark Dancer. I would also argue that to make sense of a deity you would envision them dancing in your mind? No, I think the vision was accurate.
Then again, I'm from Earth, so what do I know?
I think if a god started 'dancing in my mind', I wouldn't take it very seriously.
Then again, I'm from Earth, so what do I know?
-But I thought you were always in the KNOW?
18DELTA (The Chosen of Cyric)
] I have steadily lost interest in the FR, and also D&D, over the past year. The system, while extremely well tuned, and the setting, obviously designed with certain demographics in mind, were no longer for me. I do not begrudge those that enjoy the new D&D nor the new FR. Other companies make product I am interested in and have moved my purchases to them. However, a friend pointed me in this direction after having not even looked at this site in over a month.If you have seen the South Park episode,"The China Problem" that would accurately describe my emotions. I'm not talking about Butters and Cartman btw.
I admit to in the past being subject to nerdrage. Hell, its part of the fun in the gaming industry being upset at things that you dislike. This however is in a category all its own.[/
]
Who wants to join me for a wake? 
I also just finished Fractured Sky and had a little more of the Realms crumble before my eyes at the whim of Hasbro. Ever since the introduction of 4.0 I have seen the steady poisoning of the Realms by storylines that are just made to fit their rule changes. The realms have evolved based on a marketing schemes and not on the ideas or inspirations of the authors who toil to bring them to life.
Perhaps not. What if he saw that in letting this happen a greater catastrophe was averted?
Uhh, Savras isn't good. So no.
I have no idea how any of this could occur. Did the gods of good suddenly drop their intelligence scores to four?
What about all those divine salient abilities that give them the ability to have TOTAL CONTROL OVER THEIR OWN REALM?
Cyric swings! THERE'S A STONE WALL THERE!
This was the stupidest heap of nonsense. This assassination was carried out by someone who doesn't have the brains to assassinate a three year old in a crib.
Geez. I finally figured out why I can't stand the novels. They're not written by or for intelligent people.
If I HAD to assassinate Mystra, I would do so thusly:
Cyric and Shar go to Talona, the lady of poison, and bribe her with a portion of Mystra's essence. They ask her to brew an invisible, undetectable poison that transfers from the worshippers of the deity to Mystra. They then distribute the recipe for this to her multitude of followers. They worship Mystra. Mystra dies. Boom.
But no! This is clearly the result of someone with NO head for tactics. And it's badly written, too, I'll wager.
I'm not very happy with this. If only I had enough matches to burn every copy of this wretched novel.
Do you guys know what it takes to get me to talk about book burning? I don't want Huck Finn, Tom Sawyer, or Lolita banned from public libraries. I don't want the world of Farenheit 451. But I don't want the poorly constructed, illogically designed world of 4e Forgotten Realms either. Plus, their inability to release this book prior to the release of the 4e materials constitutes a double backstab. First, they tell us that Mystra is dead. Then, they write a justification so bad that only a mentally challenged third grader could love it.
There are honestly a great number of things I could say to that post, and you in general, most of which would unquestionably see me banned for a good deal of time. Needless to say, I did/ do enjoy the novels, and do quite enjoy 4e, Realms and core alike.
I have my issues with the rules to be sure, though they are small, but the Realms themselves are fine. For me granted, but that is all that matters.
You don't like that, tough. Honestly, it's been long enough, just read something else. No one is forcing this upon you, nor telling you to read or implement anything you don't like. I was there with all of you before, and lived through the change. I gave the setting the chance I promised, and was not dissapointed. I saw/ see things I might not have liked, but to me those were oppertunities for adventure. So please don't turn this back around into a flame war. I understand the frustration, I still feel a great deal of bitterness for ho it was all handled. But honestly, I'm sick of attacks like this, and this one attacks some who are long, well standing members.
These forums are packed with people happy with the new edition, and people content to continue posting in spite of the changes. Coming back now like this only stands to make you look ignorant and foolish.
How would you like it if I were to say "The only people who could possibly like _________(Insert reading material here) are filthy uneducated women, only suited for menial kitchen tasks, and even then only with a mans supervision"?
My money says you'd take offense to such comments, so please keep such negative remarks to yourself, as I am neither mentally challenged, nor perpetually trapped in the 3rd grade.
-RW
P.S. I have since gone back though this thread, and while I may have missed someone who HAS read this book, I don't think it really matters. I ignored the OP from the beginning, but I think it needs to be said now, that IMO he is starting a fuss over nothing.
This is a mortals vision, plain and simple. The actual attack and death is never seen, nor is how the scene truly plays out. It was EXACTLY as I figured they'd handle it, (not in the actions, but by the limited info) and it was done quite well.
If you don't like 4e, or the new Realms don't read the book. But don't listen to the OPs complaints, as honestly it's a lot of huffing and puffing over nothing. *Shakes head*
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :D
That's the quality of writing that the Forgotten Realms novels have sunk to.
1) Lurid purple prose.
2) Poor sentence structure.
3) Grammar that I would fail my students for if I was still teaching.
4) Run on sentences. My god, even R.A. Salvatore uses some of the most dreadful run-on sentences imaginable.
These problems SHOULD be eliminated by the third grade. There's no educational excuse for perpetuating them, or for taking the statement in a personal manner. If that's how you choose to read, then fine. But any teacher I ever had, heck, any student I ever had would never get more than a B out of these. That's not acceptable for a bestselling novel of any stripe.
Elaine Cunningham knew how to write. She had good grammar and proper sentence structure. When Elaine dropped the ball, she would go back, review, and admit it.
Some of this may be poor editorial skills, but nonetheless, it's still inexcusable that Wizards publishes novels without a proper editor.
To say the writng is poor is an understatment of epic proportions. I've ready better plots in 70's comics.
It's from Chapter 9 of the Pirate King. It reveals almost nothing about the book, and I chose it for it's general grammatical stinkiness.
Here's the original:
Pymian Loodran burst out the tavern door, arms flailing with terror. He fell as he turned, tearing the skin on one knee, but he hardly slowed. Scrambling, rolling, and finally getting back to his feet, he sprinted down the way. Behind thim, out of the tavern, came a pair of men dressed in the familiar robes of the Hosttower of the Arcane, white with broad red trim, talking as if nothing was amiss.
Here are my corrections.
Pymian Loodran ran out through the tavern door, arms flailing with terror. He turned and fell, tearing the skin on one knee as he fell to the dirty ground. He hardly slowed. After getting back to his feet, he sprinted away.
Out of the tavern behind him came a pair of wizards, dressed in white robes with broad red trim.
They were wizards of the Hosttower of the Arcane, and they talked as if nothing was amiss.
THAT'S why I get irritated when I hear this stuff.
Running through the Tavern Doorway, Pymian Loodran barely slowed as he fell and tore open his knee. Regaining his feat, he continue his mad dash down the cobbled street, oblivious to the sights and sounds of the busy port-town as he fled in terror.
Moments later a pair of wizards from the Hosttower of the Arcane exited the same tavern, their robes of white and red trim blowing in the slight sea-breeze, talking as if nothing was amiss.
RAS's mistake was describing the robes, which is poor writing style, without couching it in something relevant. ;)
However, that does not make them bad novels, nor the people who enjoy them mentally challenged. Just because you can't stomach something, doesn't mean you need to attack others who enjoy them for what they are.
Lastly, if your complaint was in regard to the grammar of a piece you have not yet read, then your post had no place in this thread. This thread was created in regards to the content of the novel, and it's alleged nonsensical nature from a plot standpoint.
I disagree with the OP, and take offense to your implied slight against the intelligence of myself, or any other who happened to enjoy the read.
Perhaps in the future, when you opt to bash something, you might take into account the target audience of said novels, and consider the current education standards existing in the US.
Ranking somewhere around 25th in the global education standings, doesn't exactly warrant a masterpiece for the early teen american target audience. Also, one might consider the pay the authors recieve for doing said works, and then put it in context with the quality of novel that comes out.
-RW
P.S. I humbly look forward to your, I'm sure imminent, publishing of your first Realms novel. It will no doubt stand upon an insurmountable pedestal, alone in the vast sea of litterary pieces that without trying fall far shy. A point of light in the darkness of global ignorance, and a flawless example of your nigh omniscient skill with the written word.
Not that I'll ever finish anything I write... but I got about 200 stories started. ;)
I've published writings elsewhere. But they've little to do with campaign settings, or even RPGs in general for that matter.
In the meantime, I'm writing something called Hellbow Rhune: A Novel of Dark Fantasy. Maybe if I'm lucky, someone will publish that.
I am simply surprised (like when you go to the doctor for a check up and they tell you that you are going to die in less than 24 hours…that kind of surprised) by how Mystra died. Cyric (being the Maverick that he is) has certainly done the “not possible.”
I read that Mystra was going to die a couple of months ago. I thought to myself,
“98% of people who play Forgotten Realms are going to think this is not a good idea.”
(The other 2% are people who I can’t honestly describe since I wish this not to be banned from the postings.)
But I kept an open mind. You never know where these things go. Mystra has died a couple of time and each time that she did she’d come back and it got a bit more interesting.
I thought they were going to at least give her an “EPIC-TO CLOSE TO CALL-END OF ALL THAT IS-FINALE!!!!!!”
But instead it was just...Lame. It had no imagination. It lacked creativity. It was an insult to the players as well as to anyone who has read or wrote about her in the last twenty some years.
I finished the novel and wondered, “I can recycle this book and at least so good may come out of it.”
*To the Cyric/Shar Fans/Worshippers: I am fine with the idea that they killed Mystra. I am not fine that it was so boring. The Goddess and Evil and the God of Murder killed Mystra in the Kitchen with a candle stick. I simply thought if they were going to kill her it should haven been at least interesting. Reid owed them that. He is capable of it. Or so I thought…
I am simply waiting for 4.5 because when Mystra comes back because she’s going to get all “mavricky” and change everything all over again.
They said that they won’t bring her back but considering how BAD this novel was…
I can’t rule it out.
Mystra dies from getting smacked in the head with Azuth's staff by Cyric. A mortal was given knowledge of the entire scenario (meaning Savras should have also been able to forsee it) as Aliisza was able to see the entire vision and was not blocked by Shar or Cyric as some hypothesized. Mystra allows Cyric to stand directly in front of her and then turns away from him (something I don't think would ever happen because he tried to KILL her multiple times before). Azuth is entranced by Shar's dancing while standing next to Mystra (cmon people DANCING?)..who conveniently also is with Mystra, Azuth, and Cyric. Azuth drops his staff from being entranced, the staff is picked up by an agent of Shar (actually an avatar of Shar herself) and passed to Cyric who has the time to step behind Mystra and brain her.
So NO shadow weave magic was used to kill her, NO assassination by sneaking into Dweomerheart, NO cloaking of either Shar or Cyric. They waltzed in, Shar danced, Mystra and Azuth were portrayed as being stupid enough to be distracted from TWO EVIL GREATER POWERS STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM, and Cyric takes a single step and murders her with a staff made by Azuth. Also amazingly, both Shar and Cyric should have been blasted across the multiverse too in the resulting explosion..but ahh well.
This is why you don't read FR novels, Billy... :P
This is why you don't read FR novels, Billy... :P
-And if you do...dont overreact and have a kneejerk like this thread has become or became. :lightbulb
18DELTA (The Chosen of Cyric) :P
The way they killed her....meh I can get over it. After all I love (to hate) Cyric as a villan. Now what do they do with the "shadow weave" Shar has made?
If there is no more weave how can it cast a shadow?
This is why you don't read FR novels, Billy... :P
LOL Sorry, I should have known better.
My first [and so far only] gaming/setting published/literary credit [which is, sadly, non-Realms related] is something I would hardly recognise now. My writing has changed considerably since those earlier days.
I've published writings elsewhere. But they've little to do with campaign settings, or even RPGs in general for that matter.
I should have been listed as a playtester on some of Fanasy Games Unlimited's products, by my main job at the company was packing boxes with game books and styrofoam peanuts to ship-off to vendors, so I don't think I ever got a credit (I was the 'kid' back then, sort of a company 'gopher', and got paid in miniatures - LOL).
I did receive permission to put together a Faerie sourcebook for the company, which would have given me a great design-credit, but they relocated to the West Coast before I completed the research phase, and one was never made for the game (Chivalry & Sorcery), unfortunately.
So I have to settle for just being on-staff for two school newspapers and two school magazines, which doesn't count for much in the RW.
I was in Who's Who' in Poetry in 1981 (sort of an international registry of poets), but that also counts for very little.
One day, perhaps...
Wow. I can’t believe all this…
I am simply surprised (like when you go to the doctor for a check up and they tell you that you are going to die in less than 24 hours…that kind of surprised)...
Somehow I doubt that...
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
So, the optimist turns pessimist when it suits her purposes, eh? :P ;) :D
I'm a not a pessimist, I'm a skeptic, remember?
I laughed out of shock. I envisioned in my minds eye Cyric literally braining Mystra with a staff from behind, Three Stooges style.
Then I read further in the thread from others who read the book. It turns out that what the original poster neglected to mention was that it was all a vision and clearly not what actually took place, simply how the mortal in question interpreted events. I was slightly disappointed, because if things had gone down that way it would have been hilarious beyond belief.
In any event, it doesn't even matter canonically. How she died is irrelevant unless they plan on creating an event where she is resurrected. It has no impact on my 4E Realms.
So yeah, it seems like this entire thread has resulted in an unwarranted nuking of the fridge.
Since that time what we've witnessed is the same fridge floated in a lava flow, hit with a meteor, blasted into the sun, and then regurgitated by a black hole.
What I was referring to in this thread though was somehow the reverse of nuking the fridge. Mystra, over the years, was hyped up to be so powerful and almighty that nothing short of something fantastic and utterly unimaginable could kill her, and even then people would still argue and debate over if it was even possible.
Here in this thread, according to the original poster, she was said to have been killed by a single knock to the head. Something so mundane, that it was utterly laughable, destroying all suspension of disbelief about the character and the setting.
Individuals who had not read the book immediately took such a post at face value without question. Later on two others who had read the same book revealed that the original post left out an important fact that completely changes the context of events.
That fact being that what was written is not literally what happened, but was merely a mortals obviously flawed interpretation of events. What was written was merely symbolism for what really took place.
A sort of reverse nuking of the fridge, if there is such a thing.
Individuals who had not read the book immediately took such a post at face value without question. Later on two others who had read the same book revealed that the original post left out an important fact that completely changes the context of events.
That fact being that what was written is not literally what happened, but was merely a mortals obviously flawed interpretation of events. What was written was merely symbolism for what really took place.
Thanks Mel. This is what I was trying to get at a few posts back.
It is a novel and in many ways novels ignore D&D game rules. This has been the way since 87.
So just because some 3E game book says a god is all powerful in their realm does not make it so in a novel. Hell even if a novel says so that does not make it so IF someone all of a sudden finds a way. Retcons happen.
I'm a not a pessimist, I'm a skeptic, remember?
Sure, that's your story now... ;) :D
Knowing how the current fan-base already feels, thats appears to be nothing more then pouring flames onto the fire.
On purpose? To drive us away so that the designers can only have people on THEIR boards who sing their praises?
Rino might be a skeptic, but I'm a conspiracy theorist, and I see them everywhere. :D
Including that site about skepticism... :P
-RW
However, to talk about the symbolism of the event...
Cyric standing in front of Mystra = Cyric getting Mystra's attention.
Azuth being entranced by Shar's dancing = Azuth somehow being manipulated by Shar, turned into a puppet or pawn.
Azuth dropping his staff = Azuth abandoning his duty to protect and serve Mystra, as he falls under the sway of Shar.
Azuth's Staff being picked up by an agent of Shar and given to Cyric = Shar's power over Azuth being passed to Cyric.
Mystra turning her back on Cyric and getting brained with the staff = Azuth becomes the murder weapon. While Cyric distracts Mystra Azuth, under Cyric's control (formally Shar's) lands the killing blow, which was unforeseen by Mystra.
If it is symbolism that is my best guess. I believe there is one final book left to be published in this line, which may reveal the actual events.
I'm not going to get into a debate over the novels. I've made my opinion well known, and think the bulk of them are a waste of trees.
However, to talk about the symbolism of the event...
Cyric standing in front of Mystra = Cyric getting Mystra's attention.
Azuth being entranced by Shar's dancing = Azuth somehow being manipulated by Shar, turned into a puppet or pawn.
Azuth dropping his staff = Azuth abandoning his duty to protect and serve Mystra, as he falls under the sway of Shar.
Azuth's Staff being picked up by an agent of Shar and given to Cyric = Shar's power over Azuth being passed to Cyric.
Mystra turning her back on Cyric and getting brained with the staff = Azuth becomes the murder weapon. While Cyric distracts Mystra Azuth, under Cyric's control (formally Shar's) lands the killing blow, which was unforeseen by Mystra.
If it is symbolism that is my best guess. I believe there is one final book left to be published in this line, which may reveal the actual events.
-What a well thought out post. Makes perfect sense to me.
I would guess that that is how Shar somehow overcame Mystra's defenses, and her and Cyric were able to get so close.
Just a guess, but it would make more sense then Mystra throwing a Tea party and inviting her worst enemies....
I haven't read this novel because I don't read them. However, when I read the first post in this thread describing what happened: I laughed. Out loud. Hard. I thought to myself, "Oh my god, they Zhentified Mystra. She got turned into the equivalent of a Zhent Mercenary fighting against a novel hero, easily dispatched and not taken seriously. I can't believe they did that."
I laughed out of shock. I envisioned in my minds eye Cyric literally braining Mystra with a staff from behind, Three Stooges style.
Then I read further in the thread from others who read the book. It turns out that what the original poster neglected to mention was that it was all a vision and clearly not what actually took place, simply how the mortal in question interpreted events. I was slightly disappointed, because if things had gone down that way it would have been hilarious beyond belief.
In any event, it doesn't even matter canonically. How she died is irrelevant unless they plan on creating an event where she is resurrected. It has no impact on my 4E Realms.
So yeah, it seems like this entire thread has resulted in an unwarranted nuking of the fridge.
The original poster (being me) did not neglect the fact that it was a vision in the slightest. I suggest you read the orginal post slowly and read the words "vision" clearly. Also, it is FACT that the staff of Azuth was the murder instrument. Anyone who has read the novel knows that. If anyone who has read the book wishes to debate that, I'd be happy to provide the page numbers. You can try and analyze the book as much as you want for symbolism but I suggest reading the book before trying debate a topic you have no firsthand knowledge of. The only thing missing from the vision and the real-life events in the book were the 3 deities.
Just kidding - this is really getting old now.
And just to be as specific as possible as I am done posting, the page is 311. I would also suggest page 306 to corroborate the vision. Aliisza recognizes the staff in Shar's hand why? Because she saw it in her vision. Kashada (i.e. Shar) stole the staff, Aliisza (using Pharaun's ring) realizes that Kashada was Shar, created for this purpose. Shar pops out, and boom Mystra dies moments later.
Sometimes what's written is what happens. While there can be some friendly arguments over interpretation, the staff was the item that was used to slay her. At least according to the book to date.
Then why are two individuals who have also read the book disputing the fact that the entire thing was a vision and not to be taken as a blow-by-blow account of the event?
Clearly these other faceless posters for some unknown reason deserve more credibility when regarding their accounts of what a book they didn't write actually was trying to say. Well thought out indeed...
The main group of characters when recounting their visions to formulate a plan actually refer to Azuth's staff by name, the Old Staff, so I find it very hard to fathom a reason to include that detail if it wasn't at least an accurate account of what the murder weapon would be.
I will grant that there IS another book coming...so I'm assuming there is far more to the scheme/story than we know currently, but to assume it's all just a symbolic vision seems far-fetched at best. The majority of the backlash I assume is because most of the fans don't care how elaborate the scheme, whether they teleported Gandalf and Simon Phoenix in to grab the staff after Salma Hayek posing as Shar did her dance from "Dusk till Dawn" to distract Azuth and Mystra...it just sounds slightly underwhelming that the goddess of all magic gets brained by a magic staff.
Up next Auril dies in an avalanche, and Umberlee drowns.
What the designers have done is an attempt at getting a few more years out of an 'old and tired setting', so they slapped a new coat of paint on it a sent it out the door.
The designers do NOT work for us, they work for a corporation, and in that regard they are doing their jobs quite well.
Bottom line is that they are NOT in Hasbro's employ to 'write great lore', they are in Hasbro's employ to make Hasbro money. Hasbro could care less how they do that, as long as they do it.
The lore we are getting is designed to promote the newest money-making endeavor and thats as far as it goes. This is not a rant, BTW, just an accurate observation. Anyone who thinks large corporations keep people employed "because they care" is off their rocker, and has obviously never been in business.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Anyone who thinks large corporations keep people employed "because they care" is off their rocker, and has obviously never been in business.
You meant in big business, right? Because there are companies whose employees do care - only that these companies are rather small and in the (not very lucrative) P&P RPG business because of their love for the hobby.
Naturally we can't measure big companies by this yardstick. I'm just saying.
DB
Up next Auril dies in an avalanche, and Umberlee drowns.
This is probably the funniest line from this entire thread. I laughed out loud, especially at the thought of Umberlee just now figuring out she never knew how to swim.
Clearly these other faceless posters for some unknown reason deserve more credibility when regarding their accounts of what a book they didn't write actually was trying to say. Well thought out indeed...
I may be misinterpreting Red Wizard and Rauric, so I encourage them to jump in if I'm wrong. However, I understood their posts to say exactly what I wrote: Everything that happened was something akin to a dream vision. It was meant to be more symbolic than literal. I am not saying Karazhan is actively misleading anyone or lying.
Since I haven't read the novel myself, I read this thread all the way through, and saw three people who have read the book. Two of the three disagreed with Karazhan's interpretation of events. As someone who didn't read the book, it makes sense to lean toward two individuals who are in agreement about what is written than the individual they seem to be in dispute with.
I will grant that there IS another book coming...so I'm assuming there is far more to the scheme/story than we know currently, but to assume it's all just a symbolic vision seems far-fetched at best.
I really don't know if it's all symbolic or not. Since there does appear to be another book coming, I guess we'll find out. However, I am currently working on the assumption that it was highly symbolic, and since it seems to have taken place at the end of the book, it was likely written in such a way as to ensure that you buy the next book in the trilogy.
The majority of the backlash I assume is because most of the fans don't care how elaborate the scheme...
I agree. I simply wish they had kept to their promise and not released any novels based upon these events, but I knew it was inevitable.
MarkusTay63-
Bottom line is that they are NOT in Hasbro's employ to 'write great lore', they are in Hasbro's employ to make Hasbro money. Hasbro could care less how they do that, as long as they do it.
I couldn't agree with this statement more.
Yes, the dream is the only part the shows what might have happened. However, it is just that, and is notably manipulated by Shar.
The only part that even lends credence to the small blurb of a dream, is the one image at the end, where Shar is holding thr Staff.
But, given the manner in which the book is written. It's open ended nature. And a logical course of thinking. One can deduce that the dream was meant more symbolically.
That said, at the end of the day, anyone wanting to formulate an opinion will simply have to read the novel. Both sides can be given credence, depending on how one interprets the words. I will say however, that nothing in the novel refutes the side of symbology, just as nothing in the novel fully backs the idea of the dream being the definitive course events took.
The OP is welcome to treat it as such, and for that he is justified in saying that by those standards, it was weak. However, for a path that to me, and I'm sure many others, makes far more sense given the settings lore and intrigue, I choose to look at it symbolically, in much the same way Markus laid out.
Simply put, Shar lets us all see what we want to see.
-RW
I still believe the dream to be mostly accurate, and having read the book the only real deceit I see on the part of Shar as far as manipulating the dream to make some of them see what she wanted to was in the case of Zasian. The staff, Kashada stealing it, the distraction provided by the cast of characters, it was all the same as in the vision. The only difference was what happens to Zasian, and as we know some of the lore on the aftermath from GHotR, I believe Cyric as well. It is even alluded to earlier in the novel by Kashada when she labels Zasian as her tool in their scheme, as Cyric is Shar's tool. It seems very likely to me that while the idea that Shar manipulated everything is essentially correct, it was only her elaborate effort to avoid punishment. We know after Mystra's death Cyric was imprisoned by a collection of gods for 1000 years. The only real trick by Shar was utilizing Cyric and his priest to do the deed. Kashada even expressed earlier in the novel her desire for Zasian to get what's coming to him for not telling her about the time lapse that she spent imprisoned.
As I said in my post that got deleted, I believe the 3rd book will reveal far more about Cyric's machinations in the conflict between Helm and Tyr, and how that event and turmoil it caused was used to further the scheme to kill Mystra. The death event itself has pretty much already been layed out for us, in essence...we know the what, now we get to find out the how and why.
You meant in big business, right? Because there are companies whose employees do care - only that these companies are rather small and in the (not very lucrative) P&P RPG business because of their love for the hobby.
Naturally we can't measure big companies by this yardstick. I'm just saying.
DB
Yes and no - my company was very small.
I learned pretty early on myself - I hired friends to do some work for me (I owned a construction company), and they were a bunch of F-ups.
I got rid of them and hired a guy I hated in HS. When he was done with my customers house I went to his house to pay him, and he asked me why I picked him when their are hundreds of other siding mechanics to choose from.
I told him I thought he was the best, and my customers deserved only the best. He said "You know, I thought you didn't like me back in school".
I smiled and said "I still don't", and turned around and walked out. We still don't like each other, but we have a grudging respect for each other's skill. You learn not to base your decisions on your own personal likes and dislikes.
Business is business, and you do what you have to to get the job done and make money. If you do the job right, customer satisfatction is automatic - you don't work toward that end. I find guys who like to 'shmooze' the customer usually do inferior work.
Just like the guys over at WotC did what they thought needed doing. I'm sure there was a lot of nail-biting during the decision-making process, and probably still is, but you can't just sit on your laurels. If your boss expects you to come up with something fresh and make some money for him, you damn well better do it.
I respect them for that, despite however I may feel about the final outcome.
I swear, if they could just read a few books on basic storytelling, they'd be okay. Take a writing course, SOMETHING!
Epiphanies fix problems. Cosmic retrofits CAUSE problems.
Why?
Because every time the world suffers a cosmic retrofit, you get problems like DC Comics Identity Crisis. And by this, I mean that continuity retrofits are something you continuously have to do.
The best thing they could have done was had Mystra's death reboot everything to 1358. This did not help matters. A hundred year time jump has just created confusion and anger.
The rift grows wider as time goes on. It's gotten so I can't game with a couple of my oldest friends anymore. I'm there at the game when I play 4e, but I'm not there. I have to distance myself from it, and that means that I'm not into it. I wonder when they'll notice, and it makes me miserable.
I don't want to get into it (because it would come-off insulting), but basically as time goes on anyone with any real talent leaves and starts their own endeavors. This goes across the board - the worst offender, I think, is the computer-programming industry.
In my opinion, 3.5 had at least six years of good supplements left before a new system came out. D+D 4 is just wasteful. It looks pretty, but it doesn't deliver the goods.
The skill system is atrocious. My character can never be a great blacksmith, painter, carpenter, or what have you because Adventurer is now a profession rather than a course of action. And no matter how integral it is to a character to be able to do that stuff, your skill selections are now so limited that you have to burn a feat to do that. And I've played the system. That cripples you.
Period.
Good characters come out of their skills, not out of what they can do with a weapon.
Wong Fei Hung isn't a great martial arts hero because of No Shadow Kick. The fact that he's a doctor and protects the innocent is much more important.
Tony Stark would never be Iron Man if he didn't have skills in Money Management and Professional Business skills.
Peter Parker wouldn't be as viable if he wasn't a skilled Photographer.
Aragorn was a HEALER! That was the nature of his return. The fact that he was one of the First Men was largely irrelevant.
In the end, I don't like the Powers First attitude. It makes people not think about who their character is.
Another problem with business - talent drain.
I don't want to get into it (because it would come-off insulting), but basically as time goes on anyone with any real talent leaves and starts their own endeavors. This goes across the board - the worst offender, I think, is the computer-programming industry.
-This is what I have been saying since the end of July. Give it 3 years and watch a whole new batch of employes come into WotC, AD NUASEUM.
-Yes Stigger this thread is starting to become another Pointless Thread War Thread.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
Though I'd agree that the faces in 3 years are likely to be very different, with a few hold-outs here and there.
That said, for sheer RP value, 4e has proved the best of all the systems IMO. Additionally, I think the issue with the 4e Realms for most people, exists largely in their own head.
Msatran, you say you distance yourself at the table. That is a shame, as you are closing yourself off to a Realms that is as vibrant and alive as any prior edition.
Before it's release, I was highly skeptical. But for my sake, the groups sake, and the sake of several writing friends, I kept an open mind and waited to pass judgement.
First session, I was still mostly oposed to it. But once I took the reigns as DM, the world exploded for me. The new lore to learn, the new faces to meet. Everything was taken back to a time when I was still largely ignorant to the world, and it fealt good.
I like the chance to not know again. I like the feel of being surprised, and turning pages with wonder. And when 4e core comes in to play, I like being able to play my character as I see them, regardless of the level in question.
I just wish that more of the older members, and fans, could have kept a more open mond to the setting, as I think there would be far less animosity now.
-RW
Where else would problems be with 4e, other than in our heads? Its largely a matter of personal taste as to what edition is preferred, and if 4e doesn't appeal to someone, that's hardly an indicator of something being 'wrong' with them, just that their tastes are not the same as someone who prefers it.
As to 4e FR being good or not... well, again, its all in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I hate post-apocalyptic and lovecraftian stuff in my games, they just don't appeal to me conceptually, as I prefer a brighter, more optimistic society to work with. I just don't see the 4e Realms delivering that for me, same as I didn't with the world Pathfinder is set in. My view of the previous Realms was more to my tastes, though it was mostly through the lense of 2e rather than the darker turn 3e lead to. Doesn't make it better, or worse for that matter, just more to my tastes.
As to the animosity, well, I don't think either side is particularly justified when it comes down to it. The Pro-4e types are just as closed-minded and unreasonable as the Pro-3e types when it really comes down to it, seemingly to the point that neither is willing or apparently able to see the points the other side might have that are valid. Its a very caustic atmosphere that would probably benefit from both sides taking things less personally and treating everything as if it were some grave insult to each others intelligence, taste, pets, mothers, familial background, and hygiene.
So, yeah... about that novel... haven't read it, probably won't, which is hardly unusual since I don't read 90% of the Realms novels out there, but I say interpret it whatever makes sense to you, and give others the courtesy of allowing them to do the same.
Where else would problems be with 4e, other than in our heads? Its largely a matter of personal taste as to what edition is preferred, and if 4e doesn't appeal to someone, that's hardly an indicator of something being 'wrong' with them, just that their tastes are not the same as someone who prefers it.
Wasn't saying there was anything wrong with anyone.
That said, my point was more towards percieved issues, vs valid ones. A lot of people don't get the same feel from 4E, that they had with prior editions. Their arguments for this, of which tere are many, are often things from experience I would say come from a closed mind towards the changes.
I understand this, as I was nigh on turn off to DnD when the announcement first came. But, having kept an open mind, I see things drastcally different than I did then. I still know people who are hesitent about the new Realms, but as we play, and they realize nothing has changed in approach, or lore, they are coming to see it as an exciting new edition.
As to 4e FR being good or not... well, again, its all in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I hate post-apocalyptic and lovecraftian stuff in my games, they just don't appeal to me conceptually, as I prefer a brighter, more optimistic society to work with. I just don't see the 4e Realms delivering that for me, same as I didn't with the world Pathfinder is set in. My view of the previous Realms was more to my tastes, though it was mostly through the lense of 2e rather than the darker turn 3e lead to. Doesn't make it better, or worse for that matter, just more to my tastes.
That's good. Taste is important. Anything I say, is geared more towards the idea of 4e, being less in some regard to 3e. I see both sides of the fence in this, having come from prior editions, and having been one who was on the verge of hanging up the dice for good because of the change.
I just know that in these circumstances, presentation is important to winning skeptics over. The presentation given us was poor to say the least, so I know why many degenerated into bitterness. However, approached differently, in a more personal manner, as I take in my group, I think people who currently hate the new Realms, could come to see them, much as they did the older editions.
As to the animosity, well, I don't think either side is particularly justified when it comes down to it. The Pro-4e types are just as closed-minded and unreasonable as the Pro-3e types when it really comes down to it, seemingly to the point that neither is willing or apparently able to see the points the other side might have that are valid. Its a very caustic atmosphere that would probably benefit from both sides taking things less personally and treating everything as if it were some grave insult to each others intelligence, taste, pets, mothers, familial background, and hygiene.
I agree.
So, yeah... about that novel... haven't read it, probably won't, which is hardly unusual since I don't read 90% of the Realms novels out there, but I say interpret it whatever makes sense to you, and give others the courtesy of allowing them to do the same.
Agreed again. My main reason for coming into this thread, was to rectify to a degree the misconception of the novel and concept being as terrible as the OP implied.
-RW
The original poster (being me) did not neglect the fact that it was a vision in the slightest. I suggest you read the orginal post slowly and read the words "vision" clearly. Also, it is FACT that the staff of Azuth was the murder instrument. Anyone who has read the novel knows that. If anyone who has read the book wishes to debate that, I'd be happy to provide the page numbers. You can try and analyze the book as much as you want for symbolism but I suggest reading the book before trying debate a topic you have no firsthand knowledge of. The only thing missing from the vision and the real-life events in the book were the 3 deities.
So perhaps in reality Cyric had someone do something to the staff that caused Mystras death? Shar used her manipulative ways to make Cyric do her will. Perhaps the staff was rigged to do something nasty. Perhaps Cyric promised the Divination god (forgot his name) to look the other way or did some other magical shenanagins to mess with his foresight.
Lots of ways to look at this vision. They chose not to reveal the real reasons yet most likely for story effect or just to keep an air of mystery to it. Perhaps Paul Kemp's novel will fill in the blanks.
Anyway I don't see the real issue since it was an issue. It just seems to me that people want to complain about anything that is about the 4E change, even stuff that is not set in stone when it relates to canon issues.
Oh well.
Said the servant of a truly crap deity who needs to be slapped for daring to profane my eyes with his heathen drivel...
Though I'd agree that the faces in 3 years are likely to be very different, with a few hold-outs here and there.
-:P You know you want to break on through to the other-side...:P
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
Delta... just shut-up.
;) :P
I don't want to get another thread locked, so people, lets keep things where they belong - as much as I am a big fan of 4e-bashing, its getting old, fast (as is the opposite).
-:P You know you want to break on through to the other-side...:P
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
Only with a dagger at the base of your crap deity's skull... :P ;)
Wasn't saying there was anything wrong with anyone.
Heh, I got that actually. That turned into a bit of a rant that didn't have much to do with your post beyond that one sentence... was more of a general venting.
As to the event... I'm in favor of looking at it as a literal event, since it makes WotC look worse than taking it symbolically would, so yeah... :evillaugh
;)
Delta... just shut-up.
;) :P
-What if I dont want too? ;) :P
-This is going to be the next book I read. I have almost finished Shield of the Weeping Ghost. Damn thats a good book!
I am through with this thread for now so carry on, flame and bash all you guys/gals want. -Stigger give in, you know you wanna...:P
18DELTA (Still blinded by Cyric's Light!) :P
Their arguments for this, of which tere are many, are often things from experience I would say come from a closed mind towards the changes. (...)
I resent that. Having changed 90% of the supplemental material myself, I guess I can say with conviction that I'm all for changes. But there's a big difference between saying, "Hm, I've planned something different for the Zhents in that timeframe, so this change is not for me, but it's not bad in itself" and saying, "Who on Earth came up with this nonsense? Is there anyone who could possibly have had a sillier idea or come up with a way to bring about a certain change in a more hackneyed, if not completely absurd manner?" (Note: Obviously this expresses a gut feeling and is therefore completely subjective. Different folks, different strokes and all that.)
Which leads me to...
So perhaps in reality (...) Lots of ways to look at this vision.
Not having read this novel (and I'm not going to), I assume there are. The thing is, since the announcements of the changes I've read many, many posts from numerous users here and on Candlekeep how they would have handled the perceived problems - and there were many great ideas, even for the most drastic changes. I don't resent drastic changes on general principle - they just have to make sense and be presented in an intelligent manner that shows that whoever came up with them has really devoted themselves to the subject matter -, and I've got to say, I consider 75% of the suggestions I've read far superior to what WotC has done. In fact, I find it most unfortunate that people who are paid to do this have had several years to come up with something great - yet their customers come up with something better on the fly.
Many 4e detractors (I won't say "haters" because I suppose haters would decry any changes) seem to feel that way, and I guess that's why they're not willing to give WotC the benefit of the doubt. Of course the events of this novel don't have to have gone down exactly that way, of course there's much room for interpretation - but why would one assume that? Only if one trusted in WotC's storytelling ability, and many seem to have lost this trust.
DB
Saying we just don't like change is a form of 'profiling', and it's insulting to everyone here's intelligence (and I think we are ALL intelligent people).
My Realms are remiscent of the official ones, but very different. In fact, the whole reason why I started playing with the FR maps is because I wanted them to be more the way my Realms were - the map for the Realms I run is VERY different from the ones I post; I've completely moved countries around and everything else.
And yet, I was able to follow canon for the most part. It's a constant juggling act, but I have always made sure everything still worked. I even included Shade (although I've never used it) in my Realms even though I hated that bit of lore. I never wanted the history of my version to differ so much that I couldn't use canon material anymore...
Until now.
Now I have to worry about including 4e bits - some of which I like - because I feel like I'm polluting it somehow.
I love change, so saying that the anti-4e crowd is afraid of change is a terrible argument. What we hate are ill-thought-out changes, with very little basis in established lore.
No, I don't own the Realms, but neither do they... Hasbro does.
My remark was mainly to say, many people have closed off any hope of enjoying the 4E Realms, simply by preconcieved notions of what they think it is.
So to say that 90% of your Realms have been changed, or to say that you have moved whole countries around, doesn't speak to the point I was making.
All this could have been avoided, in my opinion, had the transition between the editions been done with more subtlty, and understanding.
-RW
Where else would problems be with 4e, other than in our heads? Its largely a matter of personal taste as to what edition is preferred, and if 4e doesn't appeal to someone, that's hardly an indicator of something being 'wrong' with them, just that their tastes are not the same as someone who prefers it.
Great point, thank you for making it.
Where else would problems be with 4e, other than in our heads? Its largely a matter of personal taste as to what edition is preferred, and if 4e doesn't appeal to someone, that's hardly an indicator of something being 'wrong' with them, just that their tastes are not the same as someone who prefers it.
Ah, so you are bringing up the issue of subjectivity... I'd say a serious problem with the realms is the amount of logical contradictions and inconsistencies (which are determined objectively rather than subjectively) espcially after 4e is introduced. But of course, one could argue that it is of good taste to have a storyline that totally doesn't make sense in terms of logic!
so, it's a weapon effective against other deity...
However, it's stupid (or at least i hope the Visions is a very much semplified versions o very much manipulated... some sort of propaganda anti-mystra by shar to make appear her death "stupid")...
Mhhh...
Mystra is the wave - the staff cage mystra away from the weave - The Weave fall and Mystra die...
Ah, so you are bringing up the issue of subjectivity... I'd say a serious problem with the realms is the amount of logical contradictions and inconsistencies (which are determined objectively rather than subjectively) espcially after 4e is introduced. But of course, one could argue that it is of good taste to have a storyline that totally doesn't make sense in terms of logic!
Logic is fairly subjective in and of itself... depends on where the weight is placed, so to speak, when it comes to making value judgments over something as subjective as fictional game settings.
I highly suspect that such major decisions (deaths of gods, returned Abeir, and the like) are not actually the author's choice but rather they're given a template to write around.
I still could write a better script. But, then again, I'm also a writer.
My CAT could write a better script.
Yeah, that's a more effective counter.
Seriously..... seriously...
This angers me.
I still could write a better script. But, then again, I'm also a writer.
My CAT could write a better script.
Yeah, that's a more effective counter.
Seriously..... seriously...
This angers me.
As a writer then, why not write something better, and submit it?
How does it serve to complain, and do nothing that is allegedly within your power to improve upon a perceived fault?
-RW
How about they hire some people with other ideas?
Because... ya know... company brass are famous for hiring people who disagree with them.
If they hire you, it's because they know you think as they do, or will at least "put-up and shut-up", like a good little lackey should.
This is why I hold Eliaine Cunningham in the highest regard now out of all the authors - she had too much integrity to write around their assine storylines. What did she say ? "I just couldn't finish it..."
That speaks VOLUMES when one has her level of talent.
So yeah, I'm sure quite a few of us could do better... but we'd have to have our lips firmly planted somewhere to get considered.
Wizards tells them how to write the novel, about how many pages it should be, and how it should end.
That's why Elaine couldn't finish the novel. They told her what the ending was going to be. And she didn't want to. They broke her HEART, Rauric. They took her carefully crafted work and the things that she loved and they STOMPED on them.
And that's how a lot of us feel. It's not that the 4e material is BAD. It's that it was poorly thought out. When my friend runs 4e, even though the system is awful, HE couldn't bring himself to use the 4E realms as written because even though he loves 4E, he said 'The source material is crap!'
I really feel when I look at the 4e Realms that I'm looking at the Forgotten Realms designed by Joe Quesada. 4e Realms is another "One More Day" for me. And for those of you who don't know what "One More Day" is, I suggest you google Spider Man One More Day, and I am certain that you will get a number of posts of livid, screaming hate. They destroyed my favorite superhero with that story. They destroyed my favorite gaming world with the Spellplague.
Same !@#$! Different day.
If they're smart, they will NEVER, EVER HAVE A COSMIC REBOOT AGAIN!
I hope they reign in RAS with these tactics but it looks like he like Ed is beyond this editor control deal. I cannot speak on how Elaine feels about this because I don't know her or what is in her head.
I am also not going to get lured into another arguement with you. The above is just my opinion. It does not make it 100% fact or anything.
I am also a comic book fan and OMD actually made me start reading the webhead again. I guess I just deal with change better than some folks. Perhaps that is my superpower.;)
Wizards tells them how to write the novel, about how many pages it should be, and how it should end.
That's what an employer tends to do. Generally an employer gives someone a mission (end result), and a timeline (limit in pages) and says go. If you stick within those guidelines you finish, you pass go, you collect money.
That's why Elaine couldn't finish the novel. They told her what the ending was going to be. And she didn't want to. They broke her HEART, Rauric. They took her carefully crafted work and the things that she loved and they STOMPED on them.
I would like to know if this is something she said, or something you are conjuring as part of some conspiracy to ruin the FR. Everything I have seen regarding this situation does not reflect what you are saying. Please provide corroborating evidence, I would be seriously interested to see it.
And that's how a lot of us feel. It's not that the 4e material is BAD. It's that it was poorly thought out. When my friend runs 4e, even though the system is awful, HE couldn't bring himself to use the 4E realms as written because even though he loves 4E, he said 'The source material is crap!'
And a lot of us feel the exact opposite. I get to use all the previous lore that I know with a fair degree of familiarity, as historical basis for my 4e campaigns. You know stuff I have read, GM'd, or played through over the years, get's injected into my games now, along with what is going on in the 4e Realms. Hmmmm... sounds like more to me. You know I thought it was crap too at first, until I got off the FR bandwagon and looked at it as a gaming product. There is a reason I am running a FR campaign for the first time in many years.
I really feel when I look at the 4e Realms that I'm looking at the Forgotten Realms designed by Joe Quesada. 4e Realms is another "One More Day" for me. And for those of you who don't know what "One More Day" is, I suggest you google Spider Man One More Day, and I am certain that you will get a number of posts of livid, screaming hate. They destroyed my favorite superhero with that story. They destroyed my favorite gaming world with the Spellplague.
Do you still have older Spiderman issues? Do you still have all your old FR stuff? Did somebody come by and torch them? Probably not. Just because something does not suit your taste, does not mean it was destroyed. It suits my taste a helluva lot more than it did at the nadir of its existence.
Same !@#$! Different day.
If they're smart, they will NEVER, EVER HAVE A COSMIC REBOOT AGAIN!
And I hope they do it again if needed. Maybe I will like that one too. Sorry you don't like this one, maybe you will like the next one.
My argument is simply this:
A cosmic reboot is NEVER needed. There's always a better way.
Dictionary.com defines Megalomania as such:
Megalomania:
1. Psychiatry: A symptom of mental illness marked by delusions of greatness, wealth, etc.
2. An obsession with doing extravagant or grand things.
While it could be argued that >I< have this disorder, I believe Wizards has suffered from it for a very long time. You don't need to do the biggest thing, you need to do the most effective thing. There's nothing effective about a hundred year time jump.
Let's look at other "people" who have this kind of problem.
I would rather they change NOTHING plotwise, not advance time a hundred years, whatever, than attempt grand scheme after grand scheme. Let's have a list of individuals who attempt grand scheme after grand scheme on a regular basis.
Doctor Doom
Darkseid
Manshoon
Yamun Kahan
Hero System's Mechanon
Please note one thing. All of these characters have megalomania, and attempted grand scheme after grand scheme. Most of them are completely nuts. Just because you're the Dungeon Master doesn't mean that you should let that philosophy creep into your roleplaying world. The fact that your world has some super villains doesn't mean that you should let that philosophy creep into your world building skills.
Above all else, keep things simple.
Because Cosmic Reboots, no matter their source, always make things stupid and produce an angry fanbase. Twenty Six Years of DC Comics and Twenty Years of Realms Products make it so.
If you want happy fans, come up with little ways to change the characters and the world. Don't hit the world with a hammer.
You know, Rauric, I think you have been misreading my posts for the past year.
My argument is simply this:
A cosmic reboot is NEVER needed. There's always a better way.
...
Above all else, keep things simple.
Because Cosmic Reboots, no matter their source, always make things stupid and produce an angry fanbase. Twenty Six Years of DC Comics and Twenty Years of Realms Products make it so.
If you want happy fans, come up with little ways to change the characters and the world. Don't hit the world with a hammer.
This only holds true (at least from a business standpoint) if the product is wildly successful and exceeding expectations. I think the Spidey reboot was silly and unnecessary. However, I am not privy to Marvel's sales figures, so I could be wrong.
Quite simply, the Forgotten Realms wasn't. It was the least successful line of 3.5 supplements (judging from the sales figures I have had access to over the last few years, which includes 3 brick and mortar gaming stores and an online store, as well as major online retailers who keep sales data public).
Couple that with the sudden (and long due) realization that large setting specific product lines were bad business, which meant that all of the 4e Forgotten Realms material would have to fit in a smaller library, and you have the recipe for necessary change.
I understand that you are unhappy with it. However, from a business standpoint the Realms seemed to be a lot of dead weight. For the Realms to be relevant in 4th Edition, there needed to be major changes. Reprinting the same fluff with new mechanics wasn't going to drive sales. So they took a risk. A risk that seemed to have resonated with a lot of people who had given up the Realms or who hadn't ever been willing to try them previously, but that upset some long-time followers. Then there's some who just see it as another development in a very complex setting, and one that we can use as a catalyst for adventures that draw upon years of established lore, while simultaneously being accessible to new players.
I understand that isn't what you wanted. ::shrug:: Sorry. But its hardly the catastrophe that people are painting it as.
This isn't limited to just me. It's just that many of them don't come here anymore because they find the comments of the "rebootees" infantile.
It's a combination of factors. My tolerance of bad writing only goes so far. You can see my comments on several of the novelists they kept for the ones they gave up elsewhere on these boards.
How long will it be before professionals in this field realize that you can't write run-on sentences? How long will it be before professionals in this field realize that proper editing skills aren't just a necessity, they need to be a certainty?
Meeting deadlines should not have been as important as meat on the product, and this product was highly vegetarian, to the point where reading the source material almost made my brain shut off.
There was literally enough 3.5 material to keep people playing games for years. They didn't need a new edition right now. Most of us STILL wish they had done Eberron, with it's TWO year time jump, which was later rescinded, first. Why? Because a whole lot less can happen in two years than a hundred.
I would rather have waited a minimum of two more years for 4th edition, and had them work the kinks out of it.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric)
Also because it's 100 year time lapse it seems a lot different but considering we're seeing the end result of 100 years of changes it's probably not as drastic to those living in the realms through that time. We're only seeing two snapshots of the changes. For us the changes all happened 'at once' because we got filled in on them all at once but to the people of Toril those changes occured over a century of time, which means for many of the people of Toril they don't even remember what it was like before the changes.
After all the world seems different to me having been around for the tearing down of the Berlin Wall but those graduating from HS now it's just a note in their history books. We tend not to realize how much changes in our world over the short term because we're living through it as it happens. It's only in retrospect (or history books for stuff before our time) that we can see how much change occurs in such a short period of time.
That's a poor analogy at best. The tearing down of the Berlin Wall represented the end of the false "Communist" regimes that were actually fascist, and replaced them with a more peaceful form of negotiated settlements.
At it's worst, it's very insulting, especially to the people of Germany. You really might want to think again.
The world can change a lot in a hundred years. Just look out how much our world has changed in a hundred years, and that's without uberpowerful mages, priests, gods, returned ancient ebil empires, etc.
That's because of the effects of the industrial revolution (created, of course, by man, not at the whim of a bunch of gods). Not the best comparison, at any rate.
While it could be argued that >I< have this disorder, I believe Wizards has suffered from it for a very long time.
Although I don't think any of the Wizards staff are villains, I had noticed the likeness of some of their grandiose concepts -- the RSE stream, the making ubiquitous of favourite elements, the 'you'll all love this' promises (or, for that matter, the braggy 4E PH class 'flavor' quotes) -- to Faerûnian bad guys. Who knows, maybe I'd do the same in their situation, but it does look like some of the Wizards people just have a different temperament from mine, or Ed's.
Because Cosmic Reboots, no matter their source, always make things stupid and produce an angry fanbase. Twenty Six Years of DC Comics and Twenty Years of Realms Products make it so.
There have been commercially and artistically successful reboots and reimaginings, most obviously the recent Marvel and DC films, and they've been possible because so much of what's important about those superhero milieux are the basic imagery and broad concepts. Whereas what I and many others that Realms-2008 doesn't work for value about the Realms is the intricate detail of its worldbuilding and the nuances of its geist.
Couple that with the sudden (and long due) realization that large setting specific product lines were bad business, which meant that all of the 4e Forgotten Realms material would have to fit in a smaller library, and you have the recipe for necessary change.
As I've said before, a series of books incrementally detailing a setting is pretty much bound to get diminishing sales returns, and it's remarkable that the Realms sourcebook line lasted as long as it did. Those books, despite some bemusing subject choices, were still selling at levels that would have delighted any RPG publisher except Wizards, with the profit margins its parent company demands. It's easy to see why the the three-books-only strategy makes sense, but it doesn't make me wish any less that they'd licensed Realms sourcebooks to a company better set up to publish them.
For the Realms to be relevant in 4th Edition, there needed to be major changes. Reprinting the same fluff with new mechanics wasn't going to drive sales. So they took a risk.
It wasn't the risk that it seemed when the changes first became public, because all Wizards needs is to sell out the print runs of three books and not do too much harm to novel sales (it'll be some time before we know if the latter happens). Given that decision, I agree that one sees why they moved to maximize the 'This looks new!' appeal, including playing to the Realms-disliking people with their misconceptions I started posting as Faraer seven years ago to debunk, even though the specific changes made were highly questionable and certainly not justified by most of the weak public arguments Wizards made for them.
It's just that many of them don't come here anymore because they find the comments of the "rebootees" infantile.
For what it's worth, speaking at something of a distance after not closely following this forum for some months, the new-Realms and old-Realms supporters, much like the 4E and pre-4E people, seem to me about as reasonable/unreasonable as each other in manner of posting.
sure it sucks if you wanted more, but that's life.
It sucks most of all for Ed (and I'm not presuming or interpreting for him: he certainly wished his project of detailing his Realms in print, into which he'd put so much unquantifiable love and work, could have carried on).
In none of the cases of a successful reboot are any of the stories assumed to take place in the "Mainstream" Marvel or DC universe. They have their own continuity and storyline.
I'm not making any direct point with this or the superhero comparison, I just think they're interesting counterpoints.
It also isn't yet clear to me how much the Realms geist (how things feel and work) is going to change in the novels. It's bound to vary with author: has anyone compared The Fractured Sky to Thomas Reid's earlier Realms novels, or Rich Baker's The Swordmage to his Last Mythal trilogy, in this regard? There are certainly attempts at textural continuity, such as the FRCG's welcome glossary, digging up terms from a 90s Polyhedron article.
Anyway different strokes in the end.
So Che, go to Jesters much?
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. Debate the issue, do not bait each other.
That's what an employer tends to do. Generally an employer gives someone a mission (end result), and a timeline (limit in pages) and says go. If you stick within those guidelines you finish, you pass go, you collect money.
Quite right.
When it's "just a job", thats what you do. You do the least possible to get your paycheck, and don't give a rat's ass about any of it once your off the clock.
ANY creative endeavor is a type of art, and art NEEDS freedom - when you start telling people what to write, you wind-up with a situation akin to the Catholic Church in Medieval Europe.
It must feel good to be told how to think, huh?
Thank god Michaelangelo didn't listen to his boss, otherwise the Sistine Chapel wouldn't be the wonder it is.
LOL - if WotC was in charge of that project, Drizzt would have appeared in every picture.
It must feel good to be told how to think, huh?
Why the not so subtle suggestion that I am a wage slave, or mindless drone, or a sheep?
I am self employed, actually. That's not a choice that's right for everyone, and I don't think any less of folks who punch a clock.
I am not saying it is right, or ideal, but that's how it works if you want to write in a world owned by someone else. The fact that many continue to do so, would suggest to me that perhaps they don't feel quite so restricted.
I am afraid I have to disagree here "that's how it works..." suggests that it is either invariable and happens everywhere or in some way inherent to the process. This is an assumption. Just because it can work this way, doesn't mean that it does, should or has to.
I don't believe any of us are well versed on the kinds of instructions that WotC gives directly to the authors it employs, are we? Maybe Rich, Paul, Elaine, Ed etc. could help us understand the facts in this particular situation rather than resorting to generalisations.
That said, trammeling artistic or creative endeavour seriously rubs me the wrong way... and I am not involved in those worlds.
That said, trammeling artistic or creative endeavour seriously rubs me the wrong way... and I am not involved in those worlds.
If you want untrammeled creative freedom to do whatever you want, writing in a shared world which is someone else's intellectual property isn't a good way to get it.
I am afraid I have to disagree here "that's how it works..." suggests that it is either invariable and happens everywhere or in some way inherent to the process. This is an assumption. Just because it can work this way, doesn't mean that it does, should or has to.
In the end WOTC has the red pen. They have final say so.
I don't believe any of us are well versed on the kinds of instructions that WotC gives directly to the authors it employs, are we? Maybe Rich, Paul, Elaine, Ed etc. could help us understand the facts in this particular situation rather than resorting to generalisations.
I would say the process is more interactive. Regardless is reinforces my point. WOTC owns it, the writers choose to write in it. It clearly can't be such an onerous task, or they probably would not put themselves in the position of writing for WOTC.
That said, trammeling artistic or creative endeavour seriously rubs me the wrong way... and I am not involved in those worlds.
Understandably. That is the exaggerated price of working in a shared world. In order to avoid such instances you create something entirely new, and attempt to get it published.
I don't believe any of us are well versed on the kinds of instructions that WotC gives directly to the authors it employs, are we? Maybe Rich, Paul, Elaine, Ed etc. could help us understand the facts in this particular situation rather than resorting to generalisations.
Although a lot isn't made public, they've discussed how this can work quite a bit in their Candlekeep.com threads, blogs and elsewhere; the degree to which authors are directed to start with and to which their manuscripts are edited for length, style and content has varied quite a bit depending on who they are, when it happened, the type of book (the RSEs are more tightly coordinated than more personal novels), and other factors. Elaine has talked about feeling distanced from the new Realms, but no one's heart was broken that I know of, and I don't think speculating about how people feel is productive.
If you want untrammeled creative freedom to do whatever you want, writing in a shared world which is someone else's intellectual property isn't a good way to get it.
Creativity in a shared world setting isn't taking all of the people in it making them 3 feet tall and turning them blue. The phrase "do whatever you want" is automatically constrained by what you describe.
However you seem to be skating close to a false dilemma here. This isn't the black and white "freedom" or "constraint" this is the grey area of setting your story in their world rather than being told what the ending of your book is before you have even written it. I am exploring whether what Kerym Ammath is saying is done is what either has to be or should be done.
In the end WOTC has the red pen. They have final say so.
Um, yes, this is a truism. Unfortunately it is one that misses my point. My point is, should that red pen be brought out to:
a) edit a book so that it complies with the boundaries of the setting.
or
b) to set out the thrust of the book before it is even written.
There is a difference there and an important one, I feel.
I would say the process is more interactive. Regardless is reinforces my point. WOTC owns it, the writers choose to write in it. It clearly can't be such an onerous task, or they probably would not put themselves in the position of writing for WOTC.
The fact that I didn't tackle this part of your original post is actually because I agree with it. I hope that it is not onerous as I, being one of the very few it seems, would like to see more novels.
That said, it has little to do with my point.
Understandably. That is the exaggerated price of working in a shared world. In order to avoid such instances you create something entirely new, and attempt to get it published.
Hence why I queried the specific method before outlining my own opinion on the wider and far more general concept.
Elaine has talked about feeling distanced from the new Realms, but no one's heart was broken that I know of, and I don't think speculating about how people feel is productive.
Nice to see you agree with me. I was asking for facts from the authors not the generalisations that had already been applied. It is an aside to my main point though.
And just to maintain clarity..
Main point:
What do people feel the right and most effective way would be to administer authors working in a shared world setting like the Realms?
My personal opinion:
Although possibly mildly anarchic I prefer a narrative causality approach. In this I mean that deciding the answer before someone has asked the question is going at the thing backwards. Don't decide you need an RSE so someone should write a book, sit the story design team down with an author/authors and having looked at the precipitating factors in the setting decide what should happen then.
Yeech, longer than I had planned. Sorry all!
Editors decide on novel projects and an outline of same, authors are assigned, contracts are written and signed, work is completed and submitted, work is edited to editor's specifications, work is printed, published, shipped and sold.
Throw in a bit of marketing in there too.
If it's all done right, people get paid, get to feed their families and keep working.
Which is to say let’s not all get so worked up or affronted over the idea of the curtailing of “artistic freedom” that we forget the concrete realities of the situation.
This is a business we're talking about.
No. Really.
Sarcasm aside, could we possibly try to be slightly less patronizing? Please?
If it's all done right, people get paid, get to feed their families and keep working.
Which is to say let’s not all get so worked up or affronted over the idea of the curtailing of “artistic freedom” that we forget the concrete realities of the situation.
This isn't "Let's climb the barricades and regain our artistic freedom and thus steal food from the mouthes of the corporate worker's children".
This is "in the spirit of intelligent discussion, and having seen this question be approached in several different ways, which way do you prefer".
I have no delusions about this discussion changing the world or even being read by a single person at Wizards. I did, when I brought up my objection to Kerym Ammath's post, hope however that it could be discussed in a mature fashion by the community.
Ultimately stories that occur behind the scenes, stories about unsung heroes is what I want to read. I don't like tales about well established icons of FR lore, because it inevitably turns into an RSE. These icons used in short stories work much better. Of course these icons do sell more books. What I would love to see is something I won't get because it won't make as much money.
I really don't know how WOTC runs the ship in the scheme of novels, and I really can't say what would be ideal, but I can say that what we have now is certainly not ideal.
Sarcasm aside, could we possibly try to be slightly less patronizing?
If I'd intended to be condescending, I'd have written up something like, "No. Really.
", as you did.Or perhaps conjured up a strawman as msatran did earlier.
But I did neither.
On the contrary I thought my point was quite germane to the discussion.
It’s so easy to sit outside the boundaries of where the actual planning and work gets done and cast stones or write tirades about wow “wrong” the business is being conducted, as the later stages of this thread shows, that I thought it prudent to remind everyone that this is a business we’re talking about.
Do you disagree?
This is "in the spirit of intelligent discussion, and having seen this question be approached in several different ways, which way do you prefer".
The timing of my post may lead you to believe I was speaking at you or in response to your last post.
Though my post addressed some of what you said peripherally, it was intended to rebut what Markus had to say earlier, as well as msatran’s rantish statements.
I have no delusions about this discussion changing the world or even being read by a single person at Wizards. I did, when I brought up my objection to Kerym Ammath's post, hope however that it could be discussed in a mature fashion by the community.
I don’t think you’re delusional, though it appears you imagined I was attacking you so you moved to defend yourself.
Relax.
The right and most effective way would to administer authors working in a shared world setting is for the parent company to have their schedule worked out years in advance so that obvious contradictions between what a writer is working on and the direction of the setting do not conflict.
Likewise abrupt changes to the writing schedule of an author should be minimized so that WotC does not have to cancel contracts or pay out for work they will never end up using.
What do people feel the right and most effective way would be to administer authors working in a shared world setting like the Realms?
I think authors should submit novel outlines to be approved or disapproved by a central editorial board. The outline should include all major plot elements of the novel as well as all major character's used.
Then I think the authors must be informed that any character they create belongs to WotC. Any other person writing in the shared world has the right (with WotC approval) to do anything they want with that character, including killing it. This means that Ed could write Drizzt novels if he wanted, even going so far as to kill Drizzt in one of them, provided WotC approves it.
The editorial board should be responsible for keeping all novel continuity. What happens in one novel must pass onto the next. They should also be responsible for keeping the correct "personality" for the various characters. Drizzt shouldn't suddenly have a S&M fetish, for example. As well when you read a Drizzt novel, regardless if it is written by Ed or RAS it should "feel" like a Drizzt novel to the reader.
What happens in the novel and how it happens is entirely up to the author writing it, pending approval from the Editorial Board. Once the novel is published it becomes cannon.
Why the not so subtle suggestion that I am a wage slave, or mindless drone, or a sheep?
It was not so much aimed at you, but rather at the whole phenomena of being told what to create.
Sorry if you took that personal in any way.
I know that when I create something, be it a map, or a written work, or even a piece of sculpture, I find it hard to 'get into' what I'm doing if my hands are tied, even somewhat.
I could be way off base here, but I think WotC runs a tighter ship then TSR did, which does provide a lot better continuity (in theory), but it also doesn't allow designers and authors a whole lot of freedom of expression in their works... and it shows.
I get the idea, when listening to some of the older designers talk over at CK, that a lot of them kept in contact with each other, asking this or that so that they were all on the same page and knew what others had planned. Mistakes still happened, but it was a more friendly, nurturing environment (at least, thats the impression I get when they 'wax nostalgic' about something).
The new team seems cloaked in secrecy, and only the couple of guys in charge are allowed any creative freedom, and lead everyone else in their direction by a brass nose-ring. The problem with that way of working is that those couple of guys need to always be RIGHT. TSR was just taking 'shots in the dark' with a lot of it's material, and while some things were gawd-awful, a lot of it was very creative and excellent. Sure not everyone is going to come up with gems, but when everyone has their own ideas there are bound to be a few great things, and then the company can run with those and ignore that stuff that didn't appeal to fans.
Now, that option is not there - with everyone following an FR 'script', the Realms appear to have stagnated, at least IMHO. You can sense that it is only the ideas of one or two men (since it all sounds the same) rather then dozens of people going off in different directions (like a real, living world would be). I think this approach worked very well for them with Eberron, so they applied it to the Realms and were hoping for the same effect.
Its just that, to me, it has gone from a living, breathing world to a hokey Soap Opera, with all the silliness that implies. Some people like that sort of thing, so more power to them, but I like things on a somewhat 'deeper' level (lore-wise, - I don't mean for that to reflect on anyone's intelligence in any way - I myself enjoy a cheesy TV program or craptastic movie on occasion, just for the pure 'cinematic' element).
It was not so much aimed at you, but rather at the whole phenomena of being told what to create.
Sorry if you took that personal in any way.
NP. I guess I am too wired of late.
I know that when I create something, be it a map, or a written work, or even a piece of sculpture, I find it hard to 'get into' what I'm doing if my hands are tied, even somewhat.
Completely understandable. Of course I think having some guidelines and a base to work off of has its benefits too.
I could be way off base here, but I think WotC runs a tighter ship then TSR did, which does provide a lot better continuity (in theory), but it also doesn't allow designers and authors a whole lot of freedom of expression in their works... and it shows.
I am pretty damn sure WotC runs a tighter ship the TSR also. TSR went bankrupt for many reasons, and I am sure WotC does not want to repeat them. As far as it affecting the authors and designers freedom of expression, and it showing is entirely a matter of opinion. Based on some of the more recent anthologies, and based on the 4E product line I would have to disagree. I think we are moving into a phase of the IP where editorial control is going to be loosened up. I will get back to this point later.
I get the idea, when listening to some of the older designers talk over at CK, that a lot of them kept in contact with each other, asking this or that so that they were all on the same page and knew what others had planned. Mistakes still happened, but it was a more friendly, nurturing environment (at least, thats the impression I get when they 'wax nostalgic' about something).
This may well be the case, but in my experience what many people refer to as a "nurturing environment" is an environment without any leadership or direction. It is also often code for zero accountability. In business you have to find a happy balance, TSR clearly did not, which is why it no longer exists. As far as waxing nostalgic, well that's what you do when you get older. Even the really bad stuff that happens in your life seems less bad with the passing of time, of course the really goods stuff becomes the best ever.
The new team seems cloaked in secrecy, and only the couple of guys in charge are allowed any creative freedom, and lead everyone else in their direction by a braas nose-ring. The problem with that way of working is that those couple of guys need to always be RIGHT. TSR was just taking 'shots in the dark' with a lot of it's material, and while some things were gawd-awful, a lot of it was very creative and excellent. Sure not everyone is going to come up with gems, but when everyone has their own ideas there are bound to be a few great things, and then the company can run with those and ignore that stuff that didn't appeal to fans.
Based on the economic situation of the industry over the last decade can you really blame them for tightening the screws, pre planning, and having little capital for shots in the dark? I can't especially in light of the economic turmoil facing us now. Loose **** falls off the ship in a storm, and this ship has been floating through rough waters for a number of years now.
Now, that option is not there - with everyone following an FR 'script', the Realms appear to have stagnated, at least IMHO. You can sense that it is only the ideas of one or two men (since it all sounds the same) rather then dozens of people going off in different directions (like a real, living world would be). I think this approach worked very well for them with Eberron, so they applied it to the Realms and were hoping for the same effect.
This is where I disagree, and back to the editorial leeway point for me. I think we will see less FR 'script' as we proceed into the 4E Realms. Much like the FRCG was meant to reboot the gaming side of the setting, it has also rebooted the novel side. Continuity issues will not really be there, past lore is now history and not current events. Writers can now use past lore to help build stories, without having to worry about drawing conflicting conclusions and creating an issue. They literally have the whole of Faerun open again. Accepting writer proposals will be easier, because there is not an overwhelming quantity of literature that it might conflict with. So I think we will see a lot of good stuff come down the pipe.
Its just that, to me, it has gone from a living, breathing world to a hokey Soap Opera, with all the silliness that implies. Some people like that sort of thing, so more power to them, but I like things on a somewhat 'deeper' level (lore-wise, - I don't mean for that to reflect on anyone's intelligence in any way - I myself enjoy a cheesy TV program or craptastic movie on occasion, just for the pure 'cinematic' element).
Hence why "Fractured Sky" and what appears to be a silly end for Mystra, may just be that deeper lore. I have not read it, but I do suspect that the vision is just that an interpretive vision. Most of the time visions are vague, and this one is pretty clearly making something understandable to a mortals mind. I read it as a line of emotions and concepts given visual form so as to accentuate the important factors. Based off what others have paraphrased, what I get out of it is that Mystra will possibly be betrayed, that Azuth's staff is of vital importance in regards to this killing, that Cyric is the actual murderer, and that Shar somehow facilitated this by providing a diversion. Assuming that the vision is literal is essentially telling the writer he is mentally deficient, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until the third book comes out.
Of course how does that relate to soap opera writing. I prefer calling it Harlequin for Fantasy Novels, and well it is characterized by a shovel being smacked over your head while Captain Obvious and the Plot Squad watch on. There is plenty of this variety of writing in the FR line, I will mention no names. The thing is when you get spoon fed stuff, you get used to taking things at face value, and used to the obvious. I am just saying maybe the editor, and writer are not idiots (of course some might say they are anyway because Mystra does not need to die. I don't think she needs to die, but the weave and her complete control of mortal magic did need to go. We now have a situation where the gods might fear what mortals can become, it adds to the possibilities rather than subtracts. Also we are assuming she is dead, which I seriously doubt.).
As to the cheese factor, well for me that began at the Time of Troubles and has done nothing, but grow at a fairly steady rate over the years. It was time to take the knife and wipe the excess off.
Plus they can work for WOTC and save all of their good ideas for their own self published works.
Anyway I say the vision was just a vision and left open to interpretation by the person viewing it.;)
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
So, while wizards may hold some sway over the artistic license of the material, for the most part, the authors are the ones who decide how and what makes it into their novels. Granted there are word counts which often detract from a piece, but for the most part, what you read is what they wanted.
Lastly, to the people who did/ continue to claim that big evil Wizards/ Hasbro killed Elaines spirit, I wish you'd move along, and leave it alone. I know that because you're angry at the changes of 4e, you'll look for anything to latch onto to justify the things you say against the new edition. But she has said here, and on Candlekeep repeatedly that it was entirely on her that the novel wasn't finished, and Wizards had been more than generous in extending her time line on several occasions. You can read into that all you want, but it is evident that she is either telling the truth, or lying because she really doesn't want any of the nonsense that comes from conspiracy theorists.
-RW
I will note for the record, that the Authors do get to submit a proposal for their novel before every putting fingers to keys, and based on that, are then approved or denied before writing even begins. This isn't to say that Wizards won't approach an individual author for a specific piece, but many of the novels are done in the former way.
So, while wizards may hold some sway over the artistic license of the material, for the most part, the authors are the ones who decide how and what makes it into their novels. Granted there are word counts which often detract from a piece, but for the most part, what you read is what they wanted.
My experience is with adventures rather than novels and it's not with WotC, but that's similar to what I've seen. Whether it's the author proposing their idea or the company asking the writer to do something, most of the restrictions are there because someone else is doing something with a particular aspect and got there ahead of you.
In 4e FR terms, I couldn't propose and get accepted a scenario involving a civil war in Damara if someone else was already writing a story which tells how the king of Damara led the country in a war of conquest in Impiltur. A company doesn't have to have things planned out far in advance, but they do want to stop different stories/modules contradicting each other. Some companies do have long term plans, but others are perfectly capable of waiting to see what their writers propose and using the ideas they like. Major events may be kept "in house" with no explanation to freelancers why they can't do anything with an area, although those might also be given to experienced writers.
What this means in practice is that there are limits, and if your idea has major consequences for the setting as a whole or for particular NPCs or places that someone else has plans for, then it's a lot less likely to be accepted. Stick to smaller scale things - rather than a civil war in Damara, the problems a local lord is having with his Vaasan neighbours - and the proposal is less likely to be rejected for continuity reasons. Although it's still quite likely to be rejected, because the company already has something similar in it's schedule and doesn't want to publish two survival horror adventures, doesn't want another adventure on this planet, doesn't think it can be made to work, regards you as a talentless hack, etc, etc.
It is a tough call. WOTC wants to keep tighter control on what happens in the world, but I think the only exempt from their editorial decisions may be RAS. If he is now under their sway as well then I am fine with it.
No, its not fine.
Whatever problems any of us had with RAS before, I think Road of the Patriarch was what happens when a writer wants to write one novel, and the guys in charge ask him to write another. The story(ies) was so dis-jointed, and ended so abruptly after the first two, that I felt 'ripped-off'. It was like RAS wasn't allowed to do an Artemis backstory like he wanted, so he cut short a book he was commisioned to write and snuck it in.
That was the very last RAS book I read, and it will remain the last. Up until that point I read everything he produced for FR, but that novel left a really bad taste in my mouth, and the badly forked-plot was terrible, and that is what happens when you try to 'reign-in' a creative person.
You wind-up with crap, which unfortunately a lot of the 3e to 4e transition novels are turning into. It is so blatantly apparent that WotC needed Mystra to die by the staff (hedging their bets), and that the author didn't put any effort into including it. It was like "there... I put it in... satisfied?"
It was almost as if it was spitefully bad...
Maybe I'm wrong... who knows... but I really doubt a lot of what is showing up in novels would be if the FR team wasn't pulling the strings, and steering everything down this woefully ill-thought out 4eFR plan of theirs. Now, I wouldn't care if they were giving the authors good material to work with, but they are just going with whatever is easiest for them to come up with, with little or no thought behind any of it (except the Staff, which is so obviously there 'out' in case the whole 'kill Mystra' plan backfires terribly).
As for the 'Soap Opera' comment - it was along the lines that everything that happens is so ridiculously contrived that you have to laugh. For instance, on one Soap that my sister watches, a women meets up with her child - one she ABORTED some 30 years earlier.
The abortion lived...
Hmmmm... thats an appropriate place to leave off, I think....
Or perhaps conjured up a strawman as msatran did earlier.
There is no straw man. The bad writing IS the problem.
Or maybe I'm imagining things... it is hard to believe an author would sabotage his own novel for something so petty.
Either way, I find myself complaining about things I can't change, to people who won't change their minds no matter what is said here. I waste my time and yours, and I'm sorry for that.
Everyone has their own tastes, and thats what makes the world go 'round and all that crap. I'll miss reading about FR, but it's not like there isn't a ton of other good novels out there.
Perhaps I'll go back to SciFi for awhile...
My experience is with adventures rather than novels and it's not with WotC, but that's similar to what I've seen. Whether it's the author proposing their idea or the company asking the writer to do something, most of the restrictions are there because someone else is doing something with a particular aspect and got there ahead of you.
Fiction authors for Wizards have been directed and edited much more broadly than that: in titles, time periods, characters to use, major plot events, prose style, cleaving to setting lore or game rules, thematic content, and more.
Obviously, to a degree this is inevitable in a centrally run shared world. Only fragments of these processes get made public, and there may well be cases we've never heard of where this sort of direction rescued disasters. It's still regrettable that twenty years passed between TSR buying the Realms rights from Ed and his being allowed to choose his own novel protagonists.
There is no straw man. The bad writing IS the problem.
Very well then: Opinion presented as fact. Whatever you want to call it, it's still a flawed argument.
neither side has a perfect argument.
i
The right and most effective way would to administer authors working in a shared world setting is for the parent company to have their schedule worked out years in advance so that obvious contradictions between what a writer is working on and the direction of the setting do not conflict.
Opinion as fact. That is a way to administer authors. That said, depending on how you define "worked out" I may agree with you.
a) If you mean "outline general themes (such as the resurgence of a people in light of greater militaristic ambition) that can be incorporated or dealt with by authors and allow for a greater cohesion of storytelling" then I do indeed agree.
b) If you are suggesting, however, that "the specific events should be spelled out beforehand and then the books used to fill the gaps and expand on those pre-planned events" then I am afraid I do not. It seems contrived and without intentionally imposed flexibility may well preclude things coming unlooked for, inspired by books as they are released.
Likewise abrupt changes to the writing schedule of an author should be minimized so that WotC does not have to cancel contracts or pay out for work they will never end up using.
Certainly fiscal efficiency has to be an important factor, but I would be hard pressed to imagine a situation where a current book could not be used wholesale because of a setting change.
How is Ed Greenwood? Are his books valid?
I'm bring that up because in his book, Elminster: The Making of a Mage, Mystra says her powers diminish the more she's killed. By the sound of it she's died quite often. So that should someday catch up to her.
Then theres everyone getting ****** because she didnt have an epic death. Lets face it, @#$! happens. Isnt it up to the GM how she dies anyhow?
Now theres people derailing this thread like crazy. Please stop.
Can't really kill the god of magic with magic.
-Don't jump to conclusions so hastily.
Hell, I can't be killed with Mistletoe or an arrow in the foot, but a good, strong piece of Oak across the back of the head is liable to do some damage (and it doesn't even need to be magic). :P
If Balder can be killed by Mistletoe, and Achilles by being shot in the heel, then I don't see why Mystra can't be killed with a magical club.
Hell, I can't be killed with Mistletoe or an arrow in the foot, but a good, strong piece of Oak across the back of the head is liable to do some damage (and it doesn't even need to be magic). :P
That's not the best comparison since both Baldur and achilles have weaknesses written into their backgrounds.
That's not what we're talking about with Mystra.
And part of your argument sounds a little bit like "well they did something silly in mythology so why not in the realms?" and that's a rather silly defense for bad ideas and bad writing.
A similar thing happened to the god Savras, though Azuth trapped him in the Scepter Of Savras, intending it to be his staff of office, until Savras-in-his-scepter teleported away. Perhaps Azuth used the Old Staff to trap Savras inititially, or used the same mechanism with the Scepter.
Later, it can absorb arcane energy as a rod of absorption to power its spells, with the byproduct of exploding if it absorbs too much (and no way of knowing how much is stored). The explosion can blast the user into another plane. The trapping effect becomes an imprisonment spell, and the gem is called the Donjon Of Facets. (Faiths & Pantheons)
It's not just a stick. I don't know the divine rules, but it could very well have absorbed Mystra's magic and exploded, reflected her spells back at her, or trapped her within the gem.
Then again, she is the goddess of magic, and likely could have shrugged all that off, so who knows.
The thing to remember is, it's not just a stick. It's Azuth's staff, the Old Staff, a "divine artifact of ancient construction". It's a weapon as a staff of striking and has all the powers of a staff of the magi and a staff of power and then some. "It can reflect all magic cast at it and Azuth in a round 100% back at the source or sources even if the two are separated by vast distances (so long as they are on the same plane), or it can absorb beings into the Spirit Stone, the gem atop it." There's a saving throw for this effect, decreasing according to damage taken, and no save at all for a victim with too few hp. (Taken from Faiths & Avatars, 2e)....
Maybe Mystra allowed her essence (if not most of her power) to be absorbed into the Stick of Azuth. Or the gem. Perhaps it has become fashionable for gods to reside for a time in artifact-level equipment, much like the Crown of Thorns for Myrkul. ;)
Amusingly, perhaps one way to bring Mystra back would be to give Elminster a good =thwack= on the noggin with the Stick of Azuth.
The big wigs in charge of the realms don't even care if it makes any sense or not... you bought the book, and that's all they do care about!!
Watch, this post will most likely get deleted cause I spoke the truth about the game designers and the retcons they throw around like pennies in a pond.
That was probably the LEAST vitriolic post you've made in a year. :D
I think maybe 4eFR is growing on you
That's not the best comparison since both Baldur and achilles have weaknesses written into their backgrounds.
That's not what we're talking about with Mystra.
And part of your argument sounds a little bit like "well they did something silly in mythology so why not in the realms?" and that's a rather silly defense for bad ideas and bad writing.
If you know me, and my attitudes about this, then you know I was just making a joke there.
And yes, I was comparing very silly mythology with the very silly 'New realms'. ;)
Tell me the stuff about Tyr and Helm don't sound like a bad Greek tragedy?
At the end of the day, I think WotC should just rename the Old Staff the Staff of Thwacking and be done with it.
Tell me the stuff about Tyr and Helm don't sound like a bad Greek tragedy?
I agree, although it's more on the level of a Norse/Wagnerian opera reimagined as a 9th grade school play. ;)
At the end of the day, I think WotC should just rename the Old Staff the Staff of Thwacking and be done with it.
Mystra on a Stick has the feel of one of those Lifetime channel "sensitive woman" dramas, where the actress of the week gets beaten with a rod.
It's all just entirely too dumb.
The thing to remember is, it's not just a stick. It's Azuth's staff, the Old Staff, a "divine artifact of ancient construction". It's a weapon as a staff of striking and has all the powers of a staff of the magi and a staff of power and then some. "It can reflect all magic cast at it and Azuth in a round 100% back at the source or sources even if the two are separated by vast distances (so long as they are on the same plane), or it can absorb beings into the Spirit Stone, the gem atop it." There's a saving throw for this effect, decreasing according to damage taken, and no save at all for a victim with too few hp. (Taken from Faiths & Avatars, 2e)
A similar thing happened to the god Savras, though Azuth trapped him in the Scepter Of Savras, intending it to be his staff of office, until Savras-in-his-scepter teleported away. Perhaps Azuth used the Old Staff to trap Savras inititially, or used the same mechanism with the Scepter.
Later, it can absorb arcane energy as a rod of absorption to power its spells, with the byproduct of exploding if it absorbs too much (and no way of knowing how much is stored). The explosion can blast the user into another plane. The trapping effect becomes an imprisonment spell, and the gem is called the Donjon Of Facets. (Faiths & Pantheons)
It's not just a stick. I don't know the divine rules, but it could very well have absorbed Mystra's magic and exploded, reflected her spells back at her, or trapped her within the gem.
Then again, she is the goddess of magic, and likely could have shrugged all that off, so who knows.
If taken literally here is what I foresee happening. Savras foresaw what would happen and informed Mystra. Rather than dying she allowed herself to be imprisoned within the Spirit Stone. It was necessary for [insert reason here].
Now that 4E is out, Mystra will be freed from the Spirit Stone.
Nice way to dis Gond... expect your computer to blow up soon for the slight to his Wonderbringer-ness. ;)
I'm not dissing Gond, I'm giving props to MAN.
Although possibly mildly anarchic I prefer a narrative causality approach. In this I mean that deciding the answer before someone has asked the question is going at the thing backwards. Don't decide you need an RSE so someone should write a book, sit the story design team down with an author/authors and having looked at the precipitating factors in the setting decide what should happen then.
You know, I was just thinking about that last night (or was it this morning?). I'm mostly fine with the timeline moving forward as new stories get told. I think it's rather stupid, though, when it is decided that the setting is to change in a certain way, and then novels get written to set that change in stone (so to speak). As you mentioned, it seems to me to be having priorities backwards.
It is a tough call. WOTC wants to keep tighter control on what happens in the world, but I think the only exempt from their editorial decisions may be RAS. If he is now under their sway as well then I am fine with it.
He himself has affirmed that he has to comply with what WotC wants for the setting.
I know a lot of people really liked seeing Mystra removed as the goddess of magic, but I HATE HATE HATE her going out like a b@#*h. I did like how they used Micus and his unbending duty against him. But that development was totally wasted in this story.
Please WoTC, give us our Realms back!!. If you set everything back the way it was I promise we will forget this all happened.
Mystra was fixable as well - I just use her like another Wee Jas, and it's all good. No 'Silver-Super-Soldiers' to the rescue or any of that crap.
Can I ask why the novel is titled thusly?
I thought a lot more then just the sky got broken....
The passage in question in The Fractured Sky was NEVER intended to be taken literally. It was presented, at least in my mind, as a bit of symbolic imagery representing events beyond the comprehension of mere mortals. It was, as several others have tried to point out, a hazy vision. To be clear, I was actually given explicit instructions by my WotC editor to AVOID having my characters interact with the gods, indeed to avoid having said deities on-stage at all. If all that wasn't clear to some of you, that's unfortunate.
My task with this trilogy was NOT to detail the events sketched out in the GHotR, but to exhibit a facet of how some of those events affected the various places in the multiverse. I needed to show that Cyric and Shar conspired to slay Mystra to advance my plot, but the question of how was never integral to my story. I did come up with the idea of Azuth's staff being a part of it -- I thought anyone who would dare try such a thing would need to incorporate a powerful artifact -- but the precise method was supposed to be left to the readers' imaginations. (Incidentally, there was never any discussion between my editor and me about Mystra coming to be imprisoned within the staff; as far as I'm aware, she is fully and truly dead, and it was my intention -- though never actually written -- that the staff was destroyed in the process. Also, my reasoning for Savras not foreseeing the event and stopping it was because he had a "hole" in his sight, since he would also perish as a result. There was no way to reveal that beforehand, though. You are more than welcome to adopt different interpretations to any of this if you see fit.)
The book was originally supposed to be released this past Spring, before the 4E Realms setting (though I'm not sure if it would have predated the GHotR or not), but my own delinquency in getting the manuscript finished resulted in the date being moved back -- a result that serendipitously allowed me to incorporate Mystra's death as the climax of Book II, like I originally wanted, rather than in the middle of Book III, which felt much less dramatic to me. In hindsight, I'm not sure if it would have been better or worse to reveal Mystra's death for the first time to the public in my novel as opposed to in the game product. Certainly, it felt anti-climatic to me knowing that the reveal was already common knowledge while writing it, and I suspect many of you found it the same. I fear that many folks' already-formed opinions about her death colored your appreciation of its presentation in my novel. On the other hand, perhaps the scene just didn't work as well as I had hoped.
Anyway, that's the deal, and now you know.
Thomas
Thank you Mr Reid.;)
-Seconded!
18DELTA :cheer
Chosen of Cyric)Either way, I for one appreciate you coming on here and telling us the 'real deal'.
-And there we go, folks. Done with the conspiracy theories and everything else that was going on?
Unless there's a conspiracy to cover-up the conspiracy.
You know... like when they had to kill all the people who found out we faked the Moon Landing...
-That's one of the few things I haven't been accused of, maybe. But, then again...
You know... like when they had to kill all the people who found out we faked the Moon Landing...
Apparently we missed a few.
**adds names to the list**-I'm a corporate stooge, doing my best to cover these things up, shift blame, confuse matters, point fingers and mislead others, what can I say?
-That's one of the few things I haven't been accused of, maybe. But, then again...
We're still releasing the clowns for the terror-clown attack at 3pm on Dec. 18th, right? 'Cause a lot of planning went into that.
I'm sorry you got stuck with this ball of garbage. At least we don't HAVE to pay for it anymore.
Long Live the Real Forgotten Realms. A place that is rich, and beautiful, and filled with vision.
May Wizards be consumed in a giant earthquake along with the 4th Edition Realms, crushing the tunnel vision along with the tunnel.
Interesting... still don't like the development, but I'm much happier knowing it wasn't meant to be literal. Not that its restored my faith in WotC novels or plotlines, never had much to begin with over the last 20 years, but its nice to know anyway.
Same here--it's nice to know the truth now, but it doesn't change my feelings about Mystra's death and the direction of the setting. I had no real opinion about the book, anyway, since I haven't read it, and unfortunately I'm not sure if I'm even interested in reading it (I read the first novel in this trilogy, as well as the first Thay novel, before I knew there was going to be a Spellplague).
If you're going to blow stuff up, don't make it seem ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, everything after 1375 just didn't happen. I will be content with D+D 3.5 and treat 4th edition as one of Denny O'Neill's imaginary stories.
Perhaps when 5th edition comes out, I'll smile again. But right now, I don't have a whole lot to smile about.
When the Shar-a-thon is over maybe there will be interesting stories again.
-Right now I am kinda numb from reading Shadowrealm, Good read, its just
Show
Cale was a badass character
-I liked what Riven said to Rivelin(SP?) on page 191 of Shadowrealm to be quite true. "Your Goddess is a *****"! :D
-If he was talking to Slarkrathel, he'd be right.
I haven't perused the WotC threads or posted here in quite a long time because of the prohibition on novel topics that once existed. I'm not even sure whether or not that ban is still in effect, but since I learned of this thread at the CandleKeep forums, and after wading through the nine-plus pages of posts, I felt the need to set the record straight.
The passage in question in The Fractured Sky was NEVER intended to be taken literally. It was presented, at least in my mind, as a bit of symbolic imagery representing events beyond the comprehension of mere mortals. It was, as several others have tried to point out, a hazy vision. To be clear, I was actually given explicit instructions by my WotC editor to AVOID having my characters interact with the gods, indeed to avoid having said deities on-stage at all. If all that wasn't clear to some of you, that's unfortunate.
My task with this trilogy was NOT to detail the events sketched out in the GHotR, but to exhibit a facet of how some of those events affected the various places in the multiverse. I needed to show that Cyric and Shar conspired to slay Mystra to advance my plot, but the question of how was never integral to my story. I did come up with the idea of Azuth's staff being a part of it -- I thought anyone who would dare try such a thing would need to incorporate a powerful artifact -- but the precise method was supposed to be left to the readers' imaginations. (Incidentally, there was never any discussion between my editor and me about Mystra coming to be imprisoned within the staff; as far as I'm aware, she is fully and truly dead, and it was my intention -- though never actually written -- that the staff was destroyed in the process. Also, my reasoning for Savras not foreseeing the event and stopping it was because he had a "hole" in his sight, since he would also perish as a result. There was no way to reveal that beforehand, though. You are more than welcome to adopt different interpretations to any of this if you see fit.)
The book was originally supposed to be released this past Spring, before the 4E Realms setting (though I'm not sure if it would have predated the GHotR or not), but my own delinquency in getting the manuscript finished resulted in the date being moved back -- a result that serendipitously allowed me to incorporate Mystra's death as the climax of Book II, like I originally wanted, rather than in the middle of Book III, which felt much less dramatic to me. In hindsight, I'm not sure if it would have been better or worse to reveal Mystra's death for the first time to the public in my novel as opposed to in the game product. Certainly, it felt anti-climatic to me knowing that the reveal was already common knowledge while writing it, and I suspect many of you found it the same. I fear that many folks' already-formed opinions about her death colored your appreciation of its presentation in my novel. On the other hand, perhaps the scene just didn't work as well as I had hoped.
Anyway, that's the deal, and now you know.
Thomas
Thanks Thomas for the clarification! I appreciate it! :D
Thank you for making it clear. I hope you stay around and post more often.
It was "a bit of symbolic imagery representing events beyond the comprehension of mere mortals," and yet Mystra really was killed with a bonk in the head from Azuth's staff?
I think "mere mortals" could have handled a slightly more revealing depiction of events than the equivalent of a middle school recess punking, although I can understand the difficulties revolving around being unable to actually depict the gods as characters and literally explaining what happened.
Still, it's hard to imagine that such strong negative reaction to this scene couldn't have been foreseen due to the strong negative reaction to the "soap opera gods" event involving Tymora that caused such a fuss way back with the Grand History.
...I think "mere mortals" could have handled a slightly more revealing depiction of events than the equivalent of a middle school recess punking, although I can understand the difficulties revolving around being unable to actually depict the gods as characters and literally explaining what happened...
Ashton Kutcher = Cyric. It's an attempt by WotC to connect with the Mtv generation. Sometimes Cyric has to take a staff to a *****, 'cause he's da pimp, yo!
I mean, seriously... I'm in total agreement, Solik. Realms novels are not known for their deep symbolism. We're supposed to believe, with gods running around on the pages doing things, that suddenly novels have changed and this vision was supposed to be deeply mysterious and mystical? Come on. The vision was about one god smacking another god over the head with a staff.
Because, the way I'm picturing it after this thread, there's a great big Boi-oi-oing noise accompanying it. :D
(Or Mystra coming back the next morning saying she'd walked into a door... :rolleyes
Ashton Kutcher = Cyric. It's an attempt by WotC to connect with the Mtv generation. Sometimes Cyric has to take a staff to a *****, 'cause he's da pimp, yo!
I mean, seriously... I'm in total agreement, Solik. Realms novels are not known for their deep symbolism. We're supposed to believe, with gods running around on the pages doing things, that suddenly novels have changed and this vision was supposed to be deeply mysterious and mystical? Come on. The vision was about one god smacking another god over the head with a staff.
I have to agree. We're supposed to believe that the vision she received was too great for her mind to comprehend, yet the location was the same, the people were the same, the murderer and murder weapon were the same. Her mind did quite well in interpreting the vision. Let's remember that her mind is not that of a normal mortal's. If there was supposed to be deep symbolism going on, then it didn't take place at all as she got the facts 100% correct (Cyric used the staff of Azuth; stolen by Shar/agent of Shar to kill Mystra). This does not even take into consideration that a weapon forged of magic by a lesser power was able to kill the embodiment of magic. Also the fact that deities exist in multiple place at the same time. Smacking one manifestation would certainly not have killed her. It just boils down to the fact that they used her death as a scapegoat fix instead of taking the time to find a more plausible explanation. IMO, a better explanation for such a large and destructive event as the spellplague would have been Mystra dying by Cyrics had wielding a weapon of pure shadowweave magic. Since it is canon that the 2 are like matter/antimatter when in contact, that would have better explained the explosion and reason why the weave and shadow weave were destroyed.
Instead, we have the weave gone as well as all deities of magic. On the other hand we still have Shar (stronger than ever), Shades working to rebuild the shadow weave, and a prince who gained deity powers.
Mystra-Azuth (too powerful)? Well now you have Shar-Rivalen. Every reason given for the removal of mystra and the chosen has now been repeated ten-fold for Shar and the Shades.
But putting that matter aside, the book is very well-written. The sense of suspense, impending doom, and desperation, are all built very effectively, the characters are well-rounded, and I'm excited by the Realms-Shaking nature of these events; I want to see how it all turns out.
I just hope they pull off the finale better than the Lady Penitent trilogy; that was an example of a series where the finale clearly came across as rushed and dictated by higher-ups deciding that certain events needed to happen, eg; getting rid of the drow pantheon, making the good drow all lighter-skinned (geez, didn't anyone consider the racist undertones of that?).
...making the good drow all lighter-skinned (geez, didn't anyone consider the racist undertones of that?).
-There's no racist undertones to it. The Dark Elves are simply returning to their forms before the Descent of the Drow. They are still physically dark skinned (grays, browns, tans, blacks), but are no longer ebon, to reflect the lack of "darkness" in their hearts.
They are still physically dark skinned (grays, browns, tans, blacks), but are no longer ebon, to reflect the lack of "darkness" in their hearts.
I think the concept of skin color reflecting one's inner "darkness" or "light" in the first place is precisely what some people take issue with, even if that might not be fair in this case (I doubt anyone was actually trying to be racist).
1) Mystra sacrifices herself to save magic - maybe the Shadow Weave started to corrupt magic and taint it - Mystra sacrifices herself to make sure magic isn't destroyed which unravels the Weave and Shadow Weave restoring magic to a "pure" form
2) Mystra willingly releases her control of magic and the Weave to further promote the growth of magic - there is no need for the Weaves as magic returns to being "pure" and not needing a goddess to control it - she remains the goddess of magic like Wee Jas but no longer has control over magic
Either way would have made more sense than a staff bludgeoning from behind.
Now Shar is uber powerful and shadow stuff is everywhere - so basically the problems the designers/writers had with Mystra are now evident in Shar.
Shar really should have died when Mystra died at least.
1) Shar would be hard pressed to actually threaten the base magic of Toril and it wouldn't necessarily be productive to try since the Shadow Weave needs it. Mystra final striking wouldn't be so much to save magic as to prevent a dominant Shadow Weave and keep magic from being mostly held as a weapon in Shar's arsenal. The raw magic that is now used in 4E would and was used by variant traditions and psions prior would keep going regardless, Weave based magic is just easier. In the absence of Mystra's Weave, Shar controlling the only Weave would have control of the most efficient form (but not the only form) of spellcasting left.
2) More likely, Mystra starts encouraging the growth of the traditions that didn't use Weaves in the first place. Mystra and the Weave are sufficiently interconnected that its not entirely innacurate to say Mystra IS the Weave. Since I doubt Mystra would gleefully surrender control over herself or should I say small portions of herself, teaching people the alternate ways to use magic works better. What could convince her to do so since sane uses of the Weave empower her could make for an interesting plotline.
I haven't perused the WotC threads or posted here in quite a long time because of the prohibition on novel topics that once existed. I'm not even sure whether or not that ban is still in effect, but since I learned of this thread at the CandleKeep forums, and after wading through the nine-plus pages of posts, I felt the need to set the record straight.
The passage in question in The Fractured Sky was NEVER intended to be taken literally. It was presented, at least in my mind, as a bit of symbolic imagery representing events beyond the comprehension of mere mortals. It was, as several others have tried to point out, a hazy vision. To be clear, I was actually given explicit instructions by my WotC editor to AVOID having my characters interact with the gods, indeed to avoid having said deities on-stage at all. If all that wasn't clear to some of you, that's unfortunate.
My task with this trilogy was NOT to detail the events sketched out in the GHotR, but to exhibit a facet of how some of those events affected the various places in the multiverse. I needed to show that Cyric and Shar conspired to slay Mystra to advance my plot, but the question of how was never integral to my story. I did come up with the idea of Azuth's staff being a part of it -- I thought anyone who would dare try such a thing would need to incorporate a powerful artifact -- but the precise method was supposed to be left to the readers' imaginations. (Incidentally, there was never any discussion between my editor and me about Mystra coming to be imprisoned within the staff; as far as I'm aware, she is fully and truly dead, and it was my intention -- though never actually written -- that the staff was destroyed in the process. Also, my reasoning for Savras not foreseeing the event and stopping it was because he had a "hole" in his sight, since he would also perish as a result. There was no way to reveal that beforehand, though. You are more than welcome to adopt different interpretations to any of this if you see fit.)
The book was originally supposed to be released this past Spring, before the 4E Realms setting (though I'm not sure if it would have predated the GHotR or not), but my own delinquency in getting the manuscript finished resulted in the date being moved back -- a result that serendipitously allowed me to incorporate Mystra's death as the climax of Book II, like I originally wanted, rather than in the middle of Book III, which felt much less dramatic to me. In hindsight, I'm not sure if it would have been better or worse to reveal Mystra's death for the first time to the public in my novel as opposed to in the game product. Certainly, it felt anti-climatic to me knowing that the reveal was already common knowledge while writing it, and I suspect many of you found it the same. I fear that many folks' already-formed opinions about her death colored your appreciation of its presentation in my novel. On the other hand, perhaps the scene just didn't work as well as I had hoped.
Anyway, that's the deal, and now you know.
Thomas
As we all know, Azuth was slain by Asmodeus who then became a god. We also know that Azuth's staff has the ability to trap other deities.
Since Thomas did not write what what happened to the staff, and the whole thing was a hazy vision (a rough interpretation of events) - it leaves a DM with tons of opportunity.
If you want to bring back Mystra in your campaign world, all you need say is that the staff - along with Azuth - ended up in Azmodeus' hands. Mystra is trapped within the staff. Thus, you have a good epic tier campaign.
If we exclude the whole "goddess of magic gets trapped by magic item" problem.
It's still akin to Umberlee drowning.
If we exclude the whole "goddess of magic gets trapped by magic item" problem.
-It has precedent.
I think the concept of skin color reflecting one's inner "darkness" or "light" in the first place is precisely what some people take issue with, even if that might not be fair in this case (I doubt anyone was actually trying to be racist).
Exactly. I don't think it was intentional, but somebody should have stopped and thought "Wait, darker skin=evil? Is that the message we really want to send?"
And even putting that aside, I think it's problematic to say that any drow that aren't of the right heritage are doomed to be tainted. I would have a preferred an ending that liberated ALL drow from the taint, with following stories showing how drow society changed as a result, eg; who among them would choose a path of redemption, and who would continue on the path of wickedness.
And even putting that aside, I think it's problematic to say that any drow that aren't of the right heritage are doomed to be tainted.
Yes, that bothered me, too.
As people are still saying Cyric killed Mystra by bonking her on the head with Azuth's staff, I'm simply going to quote Thomas M. Reid's post again. It is obvious that some people didn't read it.
Thanks for reposting that, I hadn't seen it. It makes a lot of sense, as I suspected Aliisza's vision wasn't meant to be taken literally. It's an interesting question as to whether the ending would have had a more favorable reception if it had been released before all the hoopla over the 4e changes. I suspect even more people would have complained, since many gamers have a strong hostility towards the novels, and would probably have seen it as the novels taking the lead in shaping the FR setting.
Incidentally, like Thomas Reid, I hadn't visited these forums in a long time, after finding out that the aforementioned hostility translated into a ban on discussing novels at all (which I found incomprehensible; why would anyone exclude a huge portion of their fanbase?). I'm glad to see that's changed and the community has become more open.
As people are still saying Cyric killed Mystra by bonking her on the head with Azuth's staff, I'm simply going to quote Thomas M. Reid's post again. It is obvious that some people didn't read it.
Though it wasn't written that the staff physically struck her, there are IMO only 3 options being that the author's intent was the staff was destroyed in the process.
1) The staff's powers were used on her. Highly unlikely as powers usually are verbally activated and the staff was stolen and used in too short a time for the triggers to be known. Also, as spells fail to work on Mystra because of her portfolio and status, it is highly unlikely that any power activated could work considering canon states they always make any mechanic saves vs powers. The staff could contain a demipower, but I doubt any mortal/exarch/lesser power has the ability to contain a greater power.
2) The staff was broken as a sort of retributive strike. Again, as a being of pure magic, that is in effect turning a water canon on a water elemental and saying that kills it.
3) The staff was used as a weapon to kill her. This is the most likely scenario as Cyric is an assassin.
All that aside, it still begs the question of how every deity on the plane died (even though there were not at ground zero, yet the slayer escaped unharmed).
2) The staff was broken as a sort of retributive strike. Again, as a being of pure magic, that is in effect turning a water canon on a water elemental and saying that kills it.
-As I said before, not so much. Defeating the deity of magic with magic is all in a days work.
If a man jumps off a hundred story building, does it make him any smarter than a man who only jumps off a sixty story building?
No!
Hmm, while the general theme behind either suggestion works, they need re-phrasing.
1) Shar would be hard pressed to actually threaten the base magic of Toril and it wouldn't necessarily be productive to try since the Shadow Weave needs it. Mystra final striking wouldn't be so much to save magic as to prevent a dominant Shadow Weave and keep magic from being mostly held as a weapon in Shar's arsenal. The raw magic that is now used in 4E would and was used by variant traditions and psions prior would keep going regardless, Weave based magic is just easier. In the absence of Mystra's Weave, Shar controlling the only Weave would have control of the most efficient form (but not the only form) of spellcasting left.
2) More likely, Mystra starts encouraging the growth of the traditions that didn't use Weaves in the first place. Mystra and the Weave are sufficiently interconnected that its not entirely innacurate to say Mystra IS the Weave. Since I doubt Mystra would gleefully surrender control over herself or should I say small portions of herself, teaching people the alternate ways to use magic works better. What could convince her to do so since sane uses of the Weave empower her could make for an interesting plotline.
Even though Mystra died, every other god that has died still has some spark of it left some where. Myrkul, Bane, Auppenser, ....the list goes on....as long as a group of people still believe in her/him according to many sources of Realms lore, that god still exists in some way.....so I can't see why in the 100 year gap why there still wouldn't be Mystra followers especially since now in 4E you don't even have to draw your divine power directly from a god....at first they might have lost their divine powers from Mystra but I find it hard to believe that all her followers would leave her......the drow priestesses didn't leave Lolth went she went Silent even though many thought she might be dead and they went months without spells....so why would they leave Mystra???
The problem is that the actual method of accomplishment is irrelevant. It's still stupid.
If a man jumps off a hundred story building, does it make him any smarter than a man who only jumps off a sixty story building?
No!
-If he's getting paid $1.00 per story, and there is a trampoline at the bottom, then he's got the right of it, sure.
Bravo. An explanation that actually makes some sense.
If we exclude the whole "goddess of magic gets trapped by magic item" problem.
It's still akin to Umberlee drowning.
Actually I think Reid made mention that the staff was destroyed in the process of killing Mystra.
Yes, he said it was destroyed in the process of killing Mystra, but in the novel (which is cannon) it was never explicitly stated. This leaves wiggle room.
Karazhan-
You've left out many other options. Here is one right off the top of my head. Shar managed to somehow gain control of Azuth. Cyric then allowed himself to be willingly imprisoned inside Azuth's staff. Azuth then smuggled Cyric into Dweomerheart where he killed Mystra.
Those that object to magic being used to kill Mystra, would it have -really- made any difference to you had Cyric snuck up behind her and strangled her to death with piano wire? I mean, seriously.
There are some people here who are simply angry about Mystra's death, period. That is the root problem and source of anger. It doesn't matter how she died, as no matter how great or elaborate the plot to kill her – no matter how flawless – certain people would have worked to find fault with it one way or another.
The only reason I bring it up is because it is intellectually dishonest to argue over -how- her death was portrayed, when the real source of discontent is the fact that she died, period.
'cause, ya know... if it takes places in the planes, then it's a Planescape novel, NOT a Realms novel, and therefore doesn't really count as Realms-canon. :P
I buy Forgotten Realms books to learn about the setting, not about demons, devils, or Devine Comedy. If I wanted that, I'd read Dante'.
Ya know... REAL literature. ;)
I want to read about heroes and villains, not uber-juggernaught Mary-Sues who juggle moons and change reality.
thats NOT the Realms I fell in love with.
I'm sorry, but my players can no longer identify with the shear other-worldliness of the 'New Realms', and the stuff that happens there is so high level that my PCs feel diminished by the existance of all these god-like characters.
Its time for 5e... how can we feel 'cool' when all the novel personae are superior to our PCs? The setting must be destroyed... again... and all these high-level NOVEL characters nuked out of existance before I can even consider running a game in such an out-of-control high-level setting.
In fact, the novels are proving much to hard to keep up with - there simply are WAY too many of them. They should just stop writing them before the lore gets too hard to learn.
I'm sorry guys, this 4e stuff is way too confusing... I miss the much simpler 3e setting.
'cause, ya know... if it takes places in the planes, then it's a Planescape novel, NOT a Realms novel, and therefore doesn't really count as Realms-canon. :P
...Ow. That's super stretching, there.
Rauric-
Yes, he said it was destroyed in the process of killing Mystra, but in the novel (which is cannon) it was never explicitly stated. This leaves wiggle room.
Karazhan-
You've left out many other options. Here is one right off the top of my head. Shar managed to somehow gain control of Azuth. Cyric then allowed himself to be willingly imprisoned inside Azuth's staff. Azuth then smuggled Cyric into Dweomerheart where he killed Mystra.
Those that object to magic being used to kill Mystra, would it have -really- made any difference to you had Cyric snuck up behind her and strangled her to death with piano wire? I mean, seriously.
There are some people here who are simply angry about Mystra's death, period. That is the root problem and source of anger. It doesn't matter how she died, as no matter how great or elaborate the plot to kill her – no matter how flawless – certain people would have worked to find fault with it one way or another.
The only reason I bring it up is because it is intellectually dishonest to argue over -how- her death was portrayed, when the real source of discontent is the fact that she died, period.
Personally, it would have made the most sense to me had shadow weave magic (or item) been used to slay her. As I said, that would have explained the explosive shattering of the planes and weave (and shadow weave). That said, yes it would have actually been more plausible had she been stabbed, strangled, etc. However, since the gods in 4e have mentality of a Dawson's Creek episode instead of their prior intelligence, it really is a moot point.
I definitely agree that no matter how detailed or plausible the situation may have been that some people would react negatively if they loved the character. Unfortunately, the situation was not plausible, or detailed, or in sync with anything that came before it. Instead, it involved the use of the almighty 4e "it's open to interpretation so you can make it whatever you want" shield. 3e was detailed (so much so that some felt constrained) but at least if you wanted a fact you could go and find it. 4e FR is the polar opposite. Everything is open to interpretation, even when a novel is written about a specific event things are purposefully kept vague. Again, while some amount of interpretation and openness is good, having so much has the same detrimental effect for many people. Why spend money on any setting material be it novels, books, etc. when at the end of the day I might as well have saved my money and written the content myself.
How much of the novel actually takes place in the Realms?
'cause, ya know... if it takes places in the planes, then it's a Planescape novel, NOT a Realms novel, and therefore doesn't really count as Realms-canon. :P
I buy Forgotten Realms books to learn about the setting, not about demons, devils, or Devine Comedy. If I wanted that, I'd read Dante'.
Ya know... REAL literature. ;)
I want to read about heroes and villains, not uber-juggernaught Mary-Sues who juggle moons and change reality.
thats NOT the Realms I fell in love with.
I'm sorry, but my players can no longer identify with the shear other-worldliness of the 'New Realms', and the stuff that happens there is so high level that my PCs feel diminished by the existance of all these god-like characters.
Its time for 5e... how can we feel 'cool' when all the novel personae are superior to our PCs? The setting must be destroyed... again... and all these high-level NOVEL characters nuked out of existance before I can even consider running a game in such an out-of-control high-level setting.
In fact, the novels are proving much to hard to keep up with - there simply are WAY too many of them. They should just stop writing them before the lore gets too hard to learn.
I'm sorry guys, this 4e stuff is way too confusing... I miss the much simpler 3e setting.
I could not agree more. In 3e, you have uber bad guys and good guys. In 4e, all the high level good guys are dead and the focus is on the players as standing up to the evil in the Realms (who by great chance are by and by the SAME people as in 3e but upgraded and more powerful). Problem is, players start at low level and would be squashed like bugs the first time they came to the attention of any villian featured in the novels. Start the players at high level, and you defeat Wizards reasoning as to the need to remove high level npcs.
-If he's getting paid $1.00 per story, and there is a trampoline at the bottom, then he's got the right of it, sure.
But there is no trampoline that can survive a fall from terminal velocity. The best you can do is a six story high airbag. Otherwise, the guy still crushes.
The only reason I bring it up is because it is intellectually dishonest to argue over -how- her death was portrayed, when the real source of discontent is the fact that she died, period.
Yes Mystra had been one of my favorite goddesses....am I upset that she died.....no...I am upset HOW they did it.....as it contradicts what has happened before when a previous Mystra died.
I think the writers/designers made Mystra too powerful in 3.5 and now they are doing the same thing with Shar. Now Shar is insanely powerful and has her hands in everything. It almost boils down to Shar vs everyone.
There are plenty of better ideas they could have used to rid Mystra of her power......thge story kinda reminds me how they stripped the last 20 years of Spider-Man continuity......it was poorly done.
On the other hand I didn't know if I would like 4E but now that I have played it for a few months, I actually like it. I like most of the changes they have done to the Realms except for a few things such as Seldarine.
But there is no trampoline that can survive a fall from terminal velocity. The best you can do is a six story high airbag. Otherwise, the guy still crushes.
-Why not? In a word where people can turn into Dragons, and Psychic Dragonflies can possibly exist, no one has a large enough trampoline?
I think the writers/designers made Mystra too powerful in 3.5 and now they are doing the same thing with Shar. Now Shar is insanely powerful and has her hands in everything. It almost boils down to Shar vs everyone.
I disagree that Mystra was too powerful or needed to die. But I'm in complete agreement that this is essentially the same mistake, different day. It's far worse, actually, because what they believed was happening with Mystra is what they've actually chosen to do to Shar.
At least a lot of people liked Mystra. I don't really know anyone who likes Shar.
And I'm not even sure what you guys are talking about...
Anyhow, only one person caught my dripping sarcasm in that last post? I just enjoy pointing out the obvious flaws in their logic. ;)
Oh... and you know I'm the master of the 'lore-stretch', LK - I can turn Orcs into angels with a correctly placed adjective. ;)
How does that saying go... "even the Devil himself can quote the Bible to his own ends?"
Perhaps I can get one of those uber-kewl title-thingies like you have.
How can I get the Mods here to give me the appelation "Master of the Mis-Quote"? :D
It's far worse, actually, because what they believed was happening with Mystra is what they've actually chosen to do to Shar.
Although some of the current Shar-overexposure is still accountable as just that, the new Empire of Netheril is qualitatively different. Just as the revived Shade, coupled with the reverted pre-Realms approach to historical lore, was a decisive break with Ed's methods of immanent history, inflating it to a whole theocratic nation makes Wizards' Sharphilia much harder to avoid in a 4E-Realms campaign. (Similarly, Mystra's murder for the first time since 1989 transformed the god-opera from a series of misguided fables to a concrete part of the official setting.)
There are some people here who are simply angry about Mystra's death, period. That is the root problem and source of anger. It doesn't matter how she died, as no matter how great or elaborate the plot to kill her – no matter how flawless – certain people would have worked to find fault with it one way or another.
Hey, I resemble that remark. Then again I'm being good, haven't made much issue of beating the Lady to death with a stick. I'm more than content to rant out my other issues with her death at the slightest provocation for a good 20 years. Actually, considering the amount of whining about her life prior to 4E, that might be amusing. Only problem is that to due a proper job of it I'd need to buy 4E FR products that is unlikely to occur right now.
AskaniPsion:
The answer that I believe Baker gave to Mystra's lack of effective contingencies is that Shar predicted and counteracted them. My personal answer, provided I accept the Spellplague normally I don't, Mystra isn't dead, we just don't see her currently.
"She's clearly too powerful, so the best solution is to off her permanently with a magic artifact."
There is something wrong with that statement.
Clearly, Mystra was far too weak a goddess for her portfolio given the extreme ease of her dispatching.
Although some of the current Shar-overexposure is still accountable as just that, the new Empire of Netheril is qualitatively different. Just as the revived Shade, coupled with the reverted pre-Realms approach to historical lore, was a decisive break with Ed's methods of immanent history, inflating it to a whole theocratic nation makes Wizards' Sharphilia much harder to avoid in a 4E-Realms campaign. (Similarly, Mystra's murder for the first time since 1989 transformed the god-opera from a series of misguided fables to a concrete part of the official setting.)
True, all true. I really disliked that gem of going from 2E to 3E, actually. At least with that, though, you could pretty much ignore the whole ToT in your own campaign and still use most lore-related things published in 3E (if you wanted to, that is). With 4E, it's not very easy to "upgrade" and yet ignore Mystra's death without a complete divergence from lore.
Hey, I resemble that remark. Then again I'm being good, haven't made much issue of beating the Lady to death with a stick. I'm more than content to rant out my other issues with her death at the slightest provocation for a good 20 years. Actually, considering the amount of whining about her life prior to 4E, that might be amusing. Only problem is that to due a proper job of it I'd need to buy 4E FR products that is unlikely to occur right now.
AskaniPsion:
The answer that I believe Baker gave to Mystra's lack of effective contingencies is that Shar predicted and counteracted them. My personal answer, provided I accept the Spellplague normally I don't, Mystra isn't dead, we just don't see her currently.
Which is interesting as Shar is not a deity of divination but also appears to know and see all regardless.
Which is interesting as Shar is not a deity of divination but also appears to know and see all regardless.
She is the goddess of Secrets so that may help her see things.
Again I hate the Troy Denning novels for starting all of this nonsense.
She is the goddess of Secrets so that may help her see things.
Apparently she might also now be the goddess of
Show
thieves now that she absorbed Mask
Apparently she might also now be the goddess ofShowthieves now that she absorbed Mask
Really? Is this actually true or is it just random internet rumour?
Shar as the patron of thieves - I'm pretty sure that was just a conclusion and not really an item of lore. But it would make sense now in 4E, given everything that's happened, so it's a fairly natural conclusion to make.
That said, I imagine that thieves/rogues can still adopt any patron deity that is consistent with their PC's alignment and background. Shar does seem like a "no-brainer" in this matter, though, for most thieves/rogues.
Any evil deity could suffice other than Shar, but I could also easily see Tymora as a patron ("grant me luck on this robbery!") or even Ilmater for a Robin Hood-styled "thief" who robs from the rich and gives to the poor. Mask, though, had the benefit of being a rather mercurial deity alignment-wise, and one that could therefore fit a really wide range of thieves and rogues.
I'd amend that to perhaps being an interesting idea on the surface, but not thought through as clearly as it probably should have been.
Suppose I wanted to incorporate the attack on Pearl Harbor during WWII as a vision that a member of the US Navy stationed there might experience shortly before the incident. In a trance-like state, this individual sees Emperor Hirohito sneak up behind President Roosevelt with a bayonet affixed to a rifle. The two are standing on a beach in Hawaii. The emperor comes up behind Roosevelt while his two foreign emissaries are distracting the president, and then the emperor stabs the president in the kidneys.
Now: Did either the emperor or the president personally fight in the attack on Pearl Harbor? No. Did a single Japanese rife with bayonet blow up half the Pacific fleet anchored at Pearl Harbor? No. Would that person, upon waking up from the vision and seeing the beach outside his window think that either the emperor or the president would actually even be at Hawaii? No. The vision is simply an allusion to a much larger, much more complicated set of events. But the message is clear; the Japanese are about to betray the US in some sort of sneaky way.
What happened in the vision in my novel was not supposed to be real, nor accurate, nor to be taken as actual events. It was a metaphor for some very complicated plot that involved Cyric and Shar tricking Mystra and Azuth. I honestly don't care how they did it, as far as my novel is concerned. It was merely a part of the background of the plot. The important thing was to get Aliisza to see that something was about to happen, rush to try to stop it, and realize that, despite her best efforts, it was happening anyway. So yes, the rotunda in the vision and in the climactic scene at the end are alike. That was strictly for dramatic staging purposes, not to suggest that Cyric actually came up behind Mystra in that room and killed her.
As I said before, and some here have echoed since then, I think your gripe has more to do with the fact that WotC decided Mystra needed killing than with how she died in my book. My job was not to A) kill her, B) explain how she died, C) make it more "appealing." My job was to tell a story of how the creatures on the celestial planes reacted to it. That's where my focus was.
Thomas
She must have changed when she killed Ibrandul and took his stuff, as she's been on the up and up since then. I think she realised that in order to fulfill her role of destruction, she'd have to be proactive about it. Else she would, you know, lose. That's a part of her dogma after all.
It's not unlikely that she would support a thief - hey, somebody's losing out in all this. It's another deed best done in darkness. Cheating somebody in business is already there in her dogma anyway.
Suppose I wanted to incorporate the attack on Pearl Harbor during WWII as a vision that a member of the US Navy stationed there might experience shortly before the incident. In a trance-like state, this individual sees Emperor Hirohito sneak up behind President Roosevelt with a bayonet affixed to a rifle. The two are standing on a beach in Hawaii. The emperor comes up behind Roosevelt while his two foreign emissaries are distracting the president, and then the emperor stabs the president in the kidneys.
Well now, Hirohito would never perform such an underhanded and dishonourable deed*, and Roosevelt had the Navy portfolio and so could never be caught unawares on a beach, so... :P
* Oh, wait...
My earlier post was wrong, and seems to have dredged everything up again. Apologies. I knew what TMR had intended, as symbolic interpretation. I meant to ask if it was appropriately epic in nature, did it feel tragic or doom-laden or important. Did it feel important? Or was it just a flat sequence of events?
got over your novel that was spoiled with your first statement
Hrm. Let me try a different approach, since there are some among you who still don't like my explanation.
Suppose I wanted to incorporate the attack on Pearl Harbor during WWII as a vision that a member of the US Navy stationed there might experience shortly before the incident. In a trance-like state, this individual sees Emperor Hirohito sneak up behind President Roosevelt with a bayonet affixed to a rifle. The two are standing on a beach in Hawaii. The emperor comes up behind Roosevelt while his two foreign emissaries are distracting the president, and then the emperor stabs the president in the kidneys.
Completely unrelated but unless said officer is a shaman (or alternate form of mystic, occultist, etc) looking for a vision, I'm expecting him to see scrambled images of explosions, people dying, smoke, fire and maybe an image of a japanese bomber. Unsought psionic warnings always struck me as traditionally literal, confusing as hell but literal. However, since the protagonists were looking for information in a place with more fondness for prophecy than clear-cut precog, it doesn't really matter.
I think your gripe has more to do with the fact that WotC decided Mystra needed killing than with how she died in my book.
Precisely
Odd? I think it would be hilarious. Remember the lightsaber scene from Hotshots II?
I was thinking Spaceballs myself.
Also, I see that Thomas is a veteran of the great novel wars from many a year back. I'm still actually uncertain as to if the ban on discussing novels was ever truly lifted or not, but nobody seems to be taking any action against them.
I just hope it doesn't turn into the same giant mess again. It's nice to see authors participating in this forum once more.
The only reason I bring it up is because it is intellectually dishonest to argue over -how- her death was portrayed, when the real source of discontent is the fact that she died, period.
What really bothers me is the fact that Mystra died, and I don't think a "well done" death scene would change my mind about that, so for me it doesn't really matter whether or not her death scene in a novel was stupid.
So why is everyone criticizing Thomas M. Reid again for his depiction, which is not supposed to be accurate and wasn't his decision to do?
Why do you ask me, when I just said I don't care? I don't speak for everyone here, so what on earth is the point of such a question?
Why do you ask me, when I just said I don't care? I don't speak for everyone here, so what on earth is the point of such a question?
I don't remember directing it at you specifically.
So why is everyone criticizing Thomas M. Reid again for his depiction, which is not supposed to be accurate and wasn't his decision to do?
Some people just do not like that she died I think. If Elaine Cunningham or Ed wrote it some folks would still dislike the event no matter if it was done with the staff or without. Some fans just like Mystra that much.
Sinc Mr Reid is checking this out I humbly ask you and MR Kemp and your editors one huge favor. Please no more novels about the gods and how they act like high level NPCs. I just want the gods to be mysterious and work through their planar or mortal agents. If anything I want to see how different regions handle the teachings of a god and how the churches in that one religion are different. Alrighty? ;)
Sinc Mr Reid is checking this out I humbly ask you and MR Kemp and your editors one huge favor. Please no more novels about the gods and how they act like high level NPCs. I just want the gods to be mysterious and work through their planar or mortal agents. If anything I want to see how different regions handle the teachings of a god and how the churches in that one religion are different. Alrighty? ;)
Writing a letter to WotC asking for all these things might be effective.
As for Shar - A thief steals something from a noble, and the noble suffers loss. It was his wife's favorite piece of jewelry, which causes a fight between the noble and his wife (he should have protected their stuff better) - More loss (love loss). The thief gets caught, and despite the fact that the only crime committed concerned something of monetary value, the local sheriff is forced to have him hung (after all, he stole from a noble). The Constabulary feels bad for having to hang the guy (to cater to the annoyerd noble), and of course they all lose a little bit of 'themselves' in the process.
As for the thief, he losses his life, and his family (if he has any) loses him. If he was part of a guild, they have lost a member (as well as, perhaps, a bit of their nerve).
We have loss all the way around in a scenario where someone steals something, which should suit Shar VERY well. I have no problem with that.
What I do have a problem with is her more nihilistic aspect (Entropy) having a religion AT ALL.
Some people just do not like that she died I think.
Well, any further explanation that comes out at this point is post hoc rationalization, details that wouldn't be known to most folk of Faerûn. It's a trivial footnote compared to the decision itself, what motivated it and what it represents.
Please no more novels about the gods and how they act like high level NPCs. I just want the gods to be mysterious and work through their planar or mortal agents. If anything I want to see how different regions handle the teachings of a god and how the churches in that one religion are different. Alrighty? ;)
Unfortunately, Wizards knows some of us feel this way and puts more weight on the sales of novels that have employed that disastrous strategy. Which doesn't mean we should stop telling them.
Just imagine if those hundreds of thousands of misguided words had been the priesthood lore we've been waiting for for 20 years! It's the difference between world-building and world-squandering.
Suppose I wanted to incorporate the attack on Pearl Harbor during WWII as a vision that a member of the US Navy stationed there might experience shortly before the incident. In a trance-like state, this individual sees Emperor Hirohito sneak up behind President Roosevelt with a bayonet affixed to a rifle. The two are standing on a beach in Hawaii. The emperor comes up behind Roosevelt while his two foreign emissaries are distracting the president, and then the emperor stabs the president in the kidneys.
So does that mean Cyric didn't kill Mystra, but rather simply did something unexpected to cause her great problems? Does that mean Azuth's staff wasn't actually the method of her passing after all, as suggested in the former post? I'm also trying to figure out how Aliiza could have a vision of this level of portent (divination) and neither Mystra nor Azuth are aware of this, still becoming tricked.It looks like perhaps you were given an impossible task (deal with the occurrance and raminfications of a scenario that defies reason to have occurred in the first place), and I sympathize with you on that.
Thats like a Gourmet Chef being told to cook a meal using stuff out of a dumpster.
My job was to tell a story of how the creatures on the celestial planes reacted to it. That's where my focus was.
Thomas
I think you did a very good job of that. I found the whole celestial interplay, in terms of how the angels viewed their duty, and how the fiends might be swayed to the side of good, very well done.
Out of curiousity though, do you know if WotC will ever fully spell out how Cyric and Shar were able to get the drop on Mystra and Azuth? It seems to me that such a shocking and unexpected event would require some explanation.
I have a feeling many of the authors are being given 'impossible tasks' these days, and is the reason that some, or at least one I know of, left.
Thats like a Gourmet Chef being told to cook a meal using stuff out of a dumpster.
-Rabble rousing again Markus? ;)
-Know matter what WotC does all people do is complain. What will people do with only 3 books to complain about?
(Not directed at you Markus, just sayin.) :P 18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) :D
And I hadn't thought of that - less books means less complaints.
You know... if they didn't make any products at all, they'd NEVER hear complaints. :P
Anyhow, I was over on the Eberron forums and I was reading a thread about how much they hate the cosmology changes (yes... its starting already), and the OP linked to the article highlighting some of the changes.
When I tried to follow the link, it was to the paid section of the site.
Its the beginning of the end - soon you won't been able to follow a conversation around here unless you pay your 'monthly dues'.
I hope those twelve people have a real good time talking to each other.
I hope those twelve people have a real good time talking to each other.
I think you're being overly optimistic here...
Sinc Mr Reid is checking this out I humbly ask you and MR Kemp and your editors one huge favor. Please no more novels about the gods and how they act like high level NPCs. I just want the gods to be mysterious and work through their planar or mortal agents. If anything I want to see how different regions handle the teachings of a god and how the churches in that one religion are different. Alrighty? ;)
Rauric, since I am in not in charge of deciding what novels get written and how they address the presence of the gods, I can't guarantee much. However, I myself don't much like writing about the gods, and I thought that I did a pretty decent job of leaving them in the background as much as possible. Your mileage may vary.
I will echo Stigger's comment - Mr. Reid, that was a MUCH better explanation, and I feel a whole lot better about it now. Thank you for giving it a second go (I know it must be hard to answer to us 'negative-nellies').
I'm glad the explanation helped. And to be clear, I do get why this is such a troubling subject for so many. Speaking candidly, being asked to address these events made me feel a little bit like Bob Salvatore killing Chewbacca. It wasn't my idea to go down that route, but I had signed a contract, so I tried to focus on telling the story I wanted to tell and keeping the necessary but controversial background stuff to a minimum. The vision was part of my solution.
Thanks for everyone's patience as we sorted through this,
Thomas
these events made me feel a little bit like Bob Salvatore killing Chewbacca.
Good example - sorry you got so much flax for the death of Mystra even though it wasn't your decision.
Thank you for spending time on the boards answering our questions and bringing the facts to us.
It is much appreciated.
I think you did a very good job of that. I found the whole celestial interplay, in terms of how the angels viewed their duty, and how the fiends might be swayed to the side of good, very well done.
Thanks for the kind words. That was a challenging element to wrangle in this series, but also one of the most satisfying, so I'm pleased that it came across favorably to many readers.
Out of curiousity though, do you know if WotC will ever fully spell out how Cyric and Shar were able to get the drop on Mystra and Azuth? It seems to me that such a shocking and unexpected event would require some explanation.
I honestly don't know, but my guess would be no. I think that A) the minimalist approach to the 4E Realms would preclude it, and B) no explanation will ever actually improve the satisfaction quotient of the fans; for every person who likes the rationale, three others would hate it, so it's ultimately much better to leave it to you to decide how it happened (or even if it happened -- some folks clearly like the idea that she's still alive and trapped in Azuth's staff).
Thomas
Thanks for the kind words. That was a challenging element to wrangle in this series, but also one of the most satisfying, so I'm pleased that it came across favorably to many readers.
I honestly don't know, but my guess would be no. I think that A) the minimalist approach to the 4E Realms would preclude it, and B) no explanation will ever actually improve the satisfaction quotient of the fans; for every person who likes the rationale, three others would hate it, so it's ultimately much better to leave it to you to decide how it happened (or even if it happened -- some folks clearly like the idea that she's still alive and trapped in Azuth's staff).
Thomas
I see what you mean, though I grew up reading novels like Prince of Lies, so I'm more used to seeing the FR gods as characters themselves, and their actions detailed. I can understand how some may find having the gods as active players detracts from their gameplay, but then, I always loved the Greek myths where the gods fornicated with mortals, and regularly interfered with their lives out of jealousy, passions, or just plain boredom. Nothing "behind-the-scenes" about that pantheon
I'm glad the explanation helped. And to be clear, I do get why this is such a troubling subject for so many. Speaking candidly, being asked to address these events made me feel a little bit like Bob Salvatore killing Chewbacca. It wasn't my idea to go down that route, but I had signed a contract, so I tried to focus on telling the story I wanted to tell and keeping the necessary but controversial background stuff to a minimum. The vision was part of my solution.
Thanks for everyone's patience as we sorted through this,
Thomas
I don't think even the most fervent edition-change haters blame most of the authors for what's been done. I still love Lisa Smedman's work, for example, and she was given the task of getting rid of Eilistraee. I enjoyed reading it, and I appreciated the way Smedman told the story; but killing off Eilistraee was just one more example of the many things that's destroyed the game setting for me (Mystra's un-spectacular death being another). It's pretty clear that these were difficult tasks, and choices that were made by the setting's design team for IMO rather dubious reasons. Only time will tell if their choice was good for the product or not.
People bring up Salvatore and the flak he got when the novel he wrote had Chewie die. That was unfair on him, given that we know that it was Lucas himself who decided that Chewie had to die. Big difference there, as Lucas took responsibility for that.
Of course, there is also the fact that Chewie can still appear in Star Wars products, just as long as they are set pre Yuzhon-Vong war. Would WoTC allow new novel series to be set pre Sellplague?
The Death of Mystra was symbolic of the death of the Realms, basically, and its replacement with.. this current setting. Given that no one on the design team has said who decided that was necessary, people will get annoyed at anyone who sticks their head above the trenches and uses that death. Which is quite unfair on Mr Reid.
True indeed.
Would WoTC allow new novel series to be set pre Sellplague?
-No. We have already been told no. The best you'll get is flashbacks in novels set in the "new" Forgotten Realms.
I could add some of my world-famous conjecture to that, but I think it speaks for itself. ;)
Also, I find it just sad that people like Ed and Steven need to be so discreet about presenting the lore they want to present. The 'Flashbacks' thing is as close as many authors are allowed to come to writing the novels they really want to write.
-No. We have already been told no. The best you'll get is flashbacks in novels set in the "new" Forgotten Realms.
Exactly my point. It's quite different to Star Wars, which does allow books and other stuff to be written/created in many different eras, often overlapping. It'd be nice if that could happen for the Realms.
With a game, people 'living in the past' isn't condusive to selling new products, at least thats's how the guys in charge feel.
Right or wrong, its their playground, and if they decide everyone is playing hockey this week instead of stickball... hockey it is.
It'd be nice if that could happen for the Realms.
-Partially, I'd say. Sometimes, spanning multiple eras exacerbates continuity loopholes and problems, and can be a bit campy, sometimes.
The main reason (so they say) for the 100 year timejump was to eliminate all the possible continuity snafus that were starting to creep-up in FR.
That is debatable as we all know, but the primary reason nonetheless as I recall it.
-RW
Since I can sit here and list a least a hundred excellent FR novel ideas off the top of my head - as can most others - what could have possibly gotten "in the way of telling stories" among these esteemed professionals?
Simple - the need for extensive research.
Ergo, my statement compliments yours - or yours mine - they are NOT mutually exclusive.
That was unfair on him, given that we know that it was Lucas himself who decided that Chewie had to die.
No, Lucas Licensing decided to kill one of the big-name characters. It was originally going to be Luke, that was vetoed by George, then Randy Stradley suggested Chewbacca, and that wasn't.
I think Ed's still writing novels in the pre-Spellpague era.
Not as far as we know.
With a game, people 'living in the past' isn't condusive to selling new products, at least thats's how the guys in charge feel.
That's not because it's a game, it's because the books department put all their eggs in the advancing-timeline basket.
Not as far as we know.
I'm fairly certain The Sword never Sleeps, which just came out, is pre-Spellplague, IIRC.
That's not because it's a game, it's because the books department put all their eggs in the advancing-timeline basket.
A decision which may yet prove to be disasterous.
We'll probably know after the Holiday buying season... and well be able to tell if their are more layoffs.I know I'm not buying any novels post-Spellplague, and I think most FR fans feel the same way.
Only time will tell what long-term effcts this will have on the fandom, but it sounds to me like the Dragonlance fiasco all over again.
I'm fairly certain The Sword never Sleeps, which just came out, is pre-Spellplague, IIRC.
It sure is, but he turned it in a year ago. It's the last book in a contract signed before the decision to do all this to the Realms.
I have no clue what - it could be an article or part of a hitherto unannounced sourcebook, but whatever, we can still hold out hope.
So we will have a few more novels from the past, however they will most likely be done to establish the present, or open up other paths.
-RW
Out of curiosity though, how are sales on FR sourcebooks for $e compared to an equivalent release of 3.x FR? I suspect the figures just aren't as impressive, but I could be wrong.
I have decided early on that I will never give WotC anymore money until they fix this atrocity, but seeing as that will not happen...oh well
Since we are in a rescession I am going to say they are a bit low.This is just my opinion and I could be wrong. Perhaps this too is the reasoning for less books and more online stuff. Maybe things will change with a more stable economy.
-Probably not. WotC went into the online publishing stuff a bunch of months back- before the major financial and business crisis' of AIG, Ford, etc.
-Recession or not, though, it's a sound idea, from a business perspective. The publishing cost is lower, because there is nothing physical that needs to be used. You can reach a larger audience as well, as companies not shipping to certain places doesn't apply on the internet.
-Recession or not, though, it's a sound idea, from a business perspective. The publishing cost is lower, because there is nothing physical that needs to be used. You can reach a larger audience as well, as companies not shipping to certain places doesn't apply on the internet.
Or to be more cynical*, they get a potentially constant stream of revenue while publishing substantially lower word counts. You want FR support? No more books after the initial campaign guides, so you have to sign up for DDI, and since it's a grab bag of everything, you're getting much less content for a given setting over a year compared to even one or two supplement books that could have been released under any other previous model.
*Me cynical? Never! Perish the thought!
-Well, part of it, anyway.
Keep in mind that we've been in recession since last December according to the economists... ;)
-We've been in a recession for years now. Ever since the financial bubble of the internet boom popped, and 9/11, with the market tumbling, but inflation and such continuing. That's why I said major recession, to denote the instances where the DOW, NASDAQ and S&P are dropping hundreds of points (for the DOW), and large percentages, for the latter two, concerning the failure of insurance lenders, and banks, and such. That's neither here nor there, though. Point is, I think it's safe to say that WotC didn't switch their publishing format specifically because of recent economic hardships (except if you are the Yankees), but because it's the "way of the future".
-The Fractured Sky is a novel, and thus far, it doesn't seem that WotC is slowing/slimming the novel schedule. In 2008, what we get? 10? 15? Somewhere between the two.
Like any fallen civilization, we just won't realize it until its at least a century too late.
I'd say THAT never ended...
-Ironic, no? :P
Off topic however, I doubt the "American Empire", a distasteful term to say the least, is about to fall. If anything, its about to get much healthier with this happening. You can't have much of an economic base centered around the service industry and shopping afterall. I'd agree its been in decline, though I'd date that beginning closer to the 1930's myself...
Well, in a technical sense, they are correct.
All right, let me put it this way--I don't see progress as something to fear, nor do I think the world itself is coming to an end.*
*As in, supernatural powers are going to come to earth and destroy/fix (you pick!) everything.
I just deleted a huge post I had here, because the mods would have deleted it anyway.
Rinon, stig.. give it four years and then get back to me... ;)
*Well, at least not until the rest of the Polar cap melts.
Boooyyyy... which one of us was Goth again? :P
The thing to remember is, it's not just a stick. It's Azuth's staff, the Old Staff, a "divine artifact of ancient construction". It's a weapon as a staff of striking and has all the powers of a staff of the magi and a staff of power and then some. "It can reflect all magic cast at it and Azuth in a round 100% back at the source or sources even if the two are separated by vast distances (so long as they are on the same plane), or it can absorb beings into the Spirit Stone, the gem atop it." There's a saving throw for this effect, decreasing according to damage taken, and no save at all for a victim with too few hp. (Taken from Faiths & Avatars, 2e)
So perhaps in reality Cyric had someone do something to the staff that caused Mystras death?
People may think about Cyric whatever they like, but never forget the fact that he is the greater god of murder.
So anyone else hitting Mystra with the staff in exactly the same way might not have been quite enough to merely give her a headache. Cyric holds a certain place in the cosmic order which enables him to do things that other entities, who not have his place in the cosmic order, are hard pressed to reproduce.
Cyric could most likely beat a fellow god to death with any plain non-magical staff he picks up because of being the divine force of murder. Having "divine artifact of ancient construction" just makes it more easy for him than with a non-magical piece of wood
Shar used her manipulative ways to make Cyric do her will.
Cyric certainly needed no one to convince him to slay Mystra. Possible that he also manipulated Shar to get her to bring him in the right position to do what he always wanted to do. He might have missjudged the reaction of the fellow deities (or might not and will soon break out of his prison)
Perhaps Cyric promised the Divination god (forgot his name) to look the other way or did some other magical shenanagins to mess with his foresight.
The old problem of the unstoppable force hitting the unmovable object. Only in this case one of the forces had the clear advantage.
Savras is the deity who is supposed to see through all veils. However he is only a demigod. Acting within his portfolio as seer he should be able to even pierce veils woven by normally more powerfull deities.
So if Tempus would try to conceal something Savras may be able to see through despite Tempus being a more powerfull deity. Because it's his portfolio to see and it's not Tempus portfolio to conceal.
Cyric however is not only the much more powerfull deity, he is also the deity of illusions and deception. So when Cyric is trying to conceal something, he is not acting out of his portfolio.
In such a case neither Savras nor Cyric can claim the advantage of the other one acting out of portfolio and thus all that should matter is their raw power. And here Cyric, as a greater god, trumphs Savras, as a demigod.
Same thing with Shar. She is also a greater goddess and concealing things is also within her portfolio.
Both Cyric and Shar should alsone already be more than capable to hide something from Savras. Acting in concert poor Savras has no chance at all to see what they're up to.
Yet I agree that they actual execution of the murder was indeed very lame if the vision is to be taken as a literal account of facts
) - either way... If mystra IS the Weave, isnt Shar the ShadowWeave?
And if the weave, and shadowweave are so closely connected, - merly speculating here - if you kill Mystra, you cause the weave to go to .... if the weave go to ...., then the shadow weave goes to .... - if the shadow weave goes to h.... then shouldnt shar go same way ? - or atleast - assuming the shadow weave isnt as strong as the weave, still be hurt by it?
If we look at the "past" - when the Netheril mage (cant remember his name), grasped towards the weave, Mystra surrendered her own life, to "save" it - ceasing all magic for a moment to work - so if - Mystra is the weave, and opposite - this leaves for a interesting situation. Either Shar is the shadow weave - in which case, she should been hurt by the ceasing of the shadow weave - OR - if the shadow weave, and Shar isnt as such something that are one - wouldnt that actually mean - that other god's, could shape theyre own "versions" of the weave ? - if the weave still exists - why couldnt - say - "insert name of Magister of magic" here, gather the remains - or parts - of the weave, and shape it similar to the shadow weave? "Blue weave" - or what have we ?
To return to above - If Mystra is the weave, and they can not exist without eachother - then, Mystra cant be dead... perhaps "shattered" in some way, captured by "fancy Magic-boss-killer-Mega-poke-stick", or what have we - but she cant be dead..
Another thing on all this - is Ao - (a friend of mine told me - back playing in a campain in AD&D - that Ao) - saw it beeing his "job" - to keep a balance between the god's - and that was it - seeing the CRPG - Baldur's Gate 2 - would support that - as Ao intervenes when youre character is about to choose to become god, or not.. - this leads me to the next.. While Ao might not been able, or even knowing of what transpired up to the "death of Mystra" - i cant see that it can be in any way "IC" - for Ao - the "balance-keeper" of Dieties, to simply sit still, not acting once the weave when to h..., and definetly not see him - allowing Shar to prevent someone else to take over Mystra's duty's... further down that part - if so many dietes hit the floor - then if anyone should stand up - it would be Ao - as alot of portfolios now was up for grabs, and severel unbalances could now come into effect.. again - i simply dont see how AO can be silent during this.. and i definetly cant see him allow Shar to "kill" - and later prevent a new mistress of the weave to arise - without taking action..
Im aware that severel has claimed that WOTC dont like AO.. well - thing is.. AO is a part of D&D - like it or not.. AO still exist in D&D - and if D&D is to maintain its integrity - like AO or NOT - not letting him act, would imo be nothing less then completly childesh behaviour on WOTC's part... "i dont like him - i dont want him at my bday party"... thats pretty much as unproffessional as it can get.. - if that is indeed WOTC approach to all of this, perhaps there is also the answer, to many of the things which happens now, and why 4th Ed. has turned into what it is - and it if anything, dont bode well for the future for D&D.
Finally - WotC may be the "owner" of D&D - but in truth - the original thought came from someone, not beeing in any company, not beeing hired to write, not beeing paid for it - but a guy whom made a great story, in his spare time, which amused us all, and eventually the offspring became D&D.. (Hint hint: Tolkien) - D&D isnt D&D because of the company - it is D&D because the players - originally table, now a-days computer-based (majority - i think) - and the writers, and DMs of the games.. if anything, US, which has created, built, written, and so forth the stories, and lives of the persons in D&D that if anything should be the final "guardian" of what it should turn towards.. WotC - are imo- a company that tries guiding all this community in one direction - but - once the urge for $$$$ outweighs the actual life of the D&D - i can only question those persons, companies and motives.. and i will if anything- argue against it - they have no greater - or smaller right then each of us - to decide "world events" like this - WHEN it turns so much of the community away..
In the end - while they may - at many levels have the right to change it however they want - i dont think they should - purely based on what they want... and in the end - imo - i belive they are accountable to us, more then whom ever pays theyre salaries...
So basicly - WotC - hear us out.
(I appologuise for any spelling and grammar errors - as english isnt my native language (im danish - you know, that country just south of the spine of the world
- (we got real dragons here, but dont tell anyone ! )Show
Shar now in control of Masks portfolio having absorbed him or something?
I was so hoping, in my quietest of hearts, that Mask had offed Shar and then the two Gods I most hated Mystra and Shar would be both dead. Oh happy days and how I could work with a Mask is actually pretending to be Shar angle so well...
I was so hoping, in my quietest of hearts, that Mask had offed Shar and then the two Gods I most hated Mystra and Shar would be both dead. Oh happy days and how I could work with a Mask is actually pretending to be Shar angle so well...
If mystra IS the Weave, isnt Shar the ShadowWeave?
-No. She is it's steward, but not it, literally. The Shadow Weave has been retconned numerous time in it's (relatively) short life, but the last one that was made, I believe the Shadow Weave was part of Mystra (the Weave), but a part she could not access. Like an itch on your back you can't reach, I guess.
I kid you not.
You have the right of it in written Lore (The Tearing f the Waeve, IIRC), but I had asked about that in the "ask the designers" thread, and he said that was incorrect, and that the Shadoweave was completely independent of Mystra's Weave.
As for Mystra being the weave, thats how Ed pictured it, but lore does not support that.
As for Mystra being the weave, thats how Ed pictured it, but lore does not support that.
Of course it does, since most of it was written by Ed and the rest by others working from his ideas.
Then TOT and Midnight and the authors came along and screwed things up and people began hating on her. Perception became Reality. Now she is dead.
I am glad she is dead but I wish the guys way back when never wrote the novels about Midnight/Mystra aKa Wonder-woman.
Hey, don't dis Wonder Woman, my wife still loves her. :P
I only liked her when George Perez worked on her book in the mid-80s. She was a warrior woman who fought mystical creatures that threatened mankind and she often killed them with her axe, sword or whatever else she could. Then they backtrakced and made her a typical superhero over the years. Ho-hum.
I love George Perez.:D
If Mystra stayed the way she was prior to 2Es TOT and was more neutral and was not recreated as a mortal and written horribly in a novel things would have been cool.
-Might was well call her Boccob, and call it a day.