Here are some ideas I've been playing with:
Skord, vast and timeless empire ruled by an ancient dracolich with a caste of dragonborn nobles and enforcers, until Mulhorand and Unther landed on the capital. Now it is in ruins, its far-flung provinces freed for the first time in millennia to make their own way - if they can defend themselves against the powerful, growing rival nations of Mulhorand and Unther, each determined to increase its colonial holdings in preparation for the great war between the two states.
The Mulani people are different here, blended after a century with the unfamiliar natives of this new world. Their cities are more advanced, their magic stronger, their ambitions greater. Their settlements now feature great, gothic towers and winding alleys cut off from the sun, and they build airships to aid them in their conquests.
Catalmar, an Imaskari colony now reduced, after millennia of war with Skord, to a single city built over a pit where a sleeping primordial dreams. They bleed power from the sleeping primordial to defend their last redoubt, and see it as their duty to ensure their charge never awakens.
Long a world with no gods, the peoples of Abeir found solace in worshipping titans, elemental powers, beast cults, and fiendish and celestial lords. The tome archons, the Five Companions, and the celestial being known as the Whirling Fury all had great popularity in the lands subject to the throne of Skord. In the last century, however, the gods have found a way into Abeir, primarily those most desperate to find new worshippers as their followers in Toril vanished. As a result, the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons are thriving and more popular than ever, true gods satisfying a need the Abeirians never knew they had. Anu is heralded as king of the gods and master of the elements, and the Abeirians realize that the mythic war between the primordials and gods, which they long believed the gods had lost, is beginning anew. A handful of gods of the Faerunian pantheon also arrived with the Mulani nations. Tyr is now worshipped in Abeir as the Blind God, god of justice and darkness. His masked cultists, still tiny in number, are avengers in the night, bringing justice to those who would otherwise never get it. Darkness is their ally and fear their greatest weapon.
In distant Maztica, a new age has begun. The old sun is gone and a new one risen in its place; the Feathered Dragon Qotal has returned to rule the gods and punish the wicked. The Faerunian colonists are now cut off from their homeland by more than a stretch of ocean, and beneath the ocean a vast primordial being stirs angrily as the new continent disturbs its rest, its dreams invading those of humanity and transforming some of them into something other than human. Sahuagin, ixitxachitl, and kuo-toa rally to answer their ancient master's call. Beneath the earth, giants stir, creations of the Maztican gods intended to defend the new home of their people. Some of the gods swear they will destroy this new sun and cover all of Abeir with water or fire or both before they allow the primordials to threaten their domain. Across the sea, Mulhorand and Unther muster their ships, determined to add Maztica to their conquests once they are finished with the continent of Skord.
Long a world with no gods, the peoples of Abeir found solace in worshipping titans, elemental powers, beast cults, and fiendish and celestial lords.
-I have a problem with this; not as in the concept that you are writing, but with the design mantra of the design team (for the Forgotten Realms, or maybe all of current D&D, I don't know who specifically "had their way" with this). Abeir has been labeled as a world where deities and their churches do not exist. Instead, it is a world where 'Primordials' and their cults exist. No differences should be made- what differences are there between a person worshiping Lathander in a cathedral dedicated to him, some person worshiping Akasi in a shrine dedicated to her, some person worshiping Mephistopheles in a 'hidden place' sacred to him, and so on? The verbiage is just not very good. While we, as independent third parties with the ability to view things in totality, divorced from the false truths and rumors and so on that Faerûnians, Mazticans, Kara-Turans, and so on would be subjected to, these people aren't. Do they really know the difference between their deity Lathander granting those who belong to his church power and spells, their primordial Akadi granting those who belong to her cult power and spells, and so on? No, of course not. I think that, somewhere along the way, the ball was dropping, in making such a fuss that "Abeir" is/was for 'Primordials', and "Toril" is/was for deities.
-I like the concept with Qotal. I've always liked Qotal. If "Abeir" is supposed to be as it was described a few times- a pseudopsychedelic Yes album cover- the colorful landscape and such that I envision would go very well with the colorful Qotal.
I've been toying with a few ideas of my own. My very first thought was that it is in Realmspace, but on the exact opposite side of the sun from Toril, and in the same orbit (so the two would never see each other). The only thing that makes that difficult is that it was never mentioned in any Spelljammer product. I'm thinking maybe Ao had some sort of mass-illusion hiding the place, so you could only find it if you knew rigtht where to look (and Realmspace IS the largest sphere in existance).
My other idea - and one that seems almost hinted at in the 4e books, is that there were two moons originally for Abeir-Toril - one for Selune, and one for Shar.
Abeir got Shar's 'Shadow Moon'.
The Dark Moon appear as a jet-black sphere in the sky (just like Shar's symbol), and is only discernable at night by the stars it blocks out. During those occassions when it is visible during the day, inhabitants call it a 'Bad Moon rising'.
Abeir also has a region of shifters - originaly all mongrelmen experiments on humans by various Creator Races and others, these half-man, half-beasts continued to live together and inter-breed down through the ages, until they became a seperate race unto themselves (these are Eberron's shifter with an FR-esque back-story).
And the strangest thing is, these creatures can shift anytime they want... except for the three days the dark Moon is full. During those times, they are stuck in human form and can not shift into their normal hybrid shape. :D
There is also a Netherease Enclave - a massive floating city that was originally an attempt by the Netherease to dominate Arcane Space. On its maiden voyage into Realmspace, it accidently discovered Abeir, and entered the atmosphere to have a closer look. Unfortunately, they were unaware of the protective magics that Ao had placed around the sphere to go along with the cloaking effect... nothing is allowed to leave Abeir's atmosphere, not even light! (think 'Silver Surfer and how he was trapped on Earth).
Now, thousands of years later, the inhabitants have developed their own means of getting about their city and to the surface - they have grown wings! Originally an organic prosthesis affixed to the back by Biomages, over the years the Netherease of the Falconreach Enclave gained the ability to grow these wings naturally in their young, and the appendages now breed true.
They have gone through some rough patches in their history (the Dragons almost destroyed their enclave on five seperate occasions), and much of the 'old knowledge' has been lost. Most of what the arcane lore they retain has to do with creating and breeding creatures for specific purposes, and they have become the masters of magical crossbreeding (which has saved them from succumbing to their many enemies on ther adopted world).
The city is massive - even much larger then most enclaves - with a ground surface 50 miles in diameter! The city itself is only about 5 miles wide, and the rest of the floating piece of land is given over to producing foodstuffs and animal herding, along with parklands and game-preserves. Some believe that the enclave is only just the city itself, and it has long-since 'grounded' itself on the largest Earthmote ever found. It travels about the planet very slowly. and normally stays off the coast, but occassionally they travel inland. The Nethease - now know as the Faelcarsi - enjoy frightening 'groundlings', and causing much confusion and panic (the Enclave once sat over the capital city of Dregûlom for a tenday, which resulted in an uprising and the Croagal King being overthrown).
I have a few other more 'canon' tie-ins, but I'll need to chack my notes. For instance -
Somewhere over one continent dwell a strange group of Aboriginies who's warriors wear feathers as tokens of their honor, and who's Shaman can enter something called the 'dream-world' and summon animal spirits to aid them. They live in a region plague with Earthmotes, which they live upon, and this primitive people have managed to figure out a way to move the motes around to their will. It is a slow process, but by this means larger motes with large tribes can trade with other mote-tribes. Occasionally the city of Falconreach enters the region to trade as well; The aboriginies get along well with the Winged men, for whatever reason, the flying city does not harrass them as it does others. Some Sages think there is a feeling of kinship amongst the clouds, while others whisper that these sky-nomads have the power to bring the city down, which keeps the Faelcarsi on good terms.
There is a tale that long ago there was tribe that displeased the Primordials, and they were 'cast-out' of the world into a place of Nightmare. This lost tribe of Abeir Nomads is still spoken of reverently, for they showed great bravery in challenging the gods (although some might call it stupidity). Legends say that someday they will return, and will have defeated the Lords of the Nightmare Court, so that men will no longer have to gaurd their dreams (see the 2e Ravenloft material for details on the Abber Nomads).
the real world analogies ruin it for me
Your Netherese could have also found a gate to Abeir, if I remembre, Georges Krashos stated that they're could have been a gate in Eveningstar made by dwarves of something like that !
I think, that after the Spellplague, some gods may have been able to gain power in Abeir as some primordial may have come to Toril.
Personnally, I would make Abeir with more of a Dragonlance theme. With an Aspect of Tiamat posing as her and giving power to the Dragonlords.
Serepticiously, of course, as it would have been against Ao's rules. Shar probably would have been the only one open about it (I picture her having been sent to Abeir with the Primordials FIRST, and she's been making 'in-roads' back into the Realms for thousands of years).
-I have a problem with this; not as in the concept that you are writing, but with the design mantra of the design team (for the Forgotten Realms, or maybe all of current D&D, I don't know who specifically "had their way" with this). Abeir has been labeled as a world where deities and their churches do not exist. Instead, it is a world where 'Primordials' and their cults exist. No differences should be made- what differences are there between a person worshiping Lathander in a cathedral dedicated to him, some person worshiping Akasi in a shrine dedicated to her, some person worshiping Mephistopheles in a 'hidden place' sacred to him, and so on? The verbiage is just not very good. While we, as independent third parties with the ability to view things in totality, divorced from the false truths and rumors and so on that Faerûnians, Mazticans, Kara-Turans, and so on would be subjected to, these people aren't. Do they really know the difference between their deity Lathander granting those who belong to his church power and spells, their primordial Akadi granting those who belong to her cult power and spells, and so on? No, of course not. I think that, somewhere along the way, the ball was dropping, in making such a fuss that "Abeir" is/was for 'Primordials', and "Toril" is/was for deities.
Perhaps the Primordials don't grant spells? Perhaps there is no "divine" magic in Abeir?
It would be a repeat of Spell & Sorcery's Scarred Lands series, where the Titans didn't grant clerical spells while the Gods did. The Titans in turn were served by druids (not the cuddly kind) who pulled power from the elements and the world. The Gods defeat the Titans, and their followers take over the world... but the Titans' devotees remain in the shadows, looking for the opportunity to resurrect their fallen fathers...
seems somewhat like Abeir-Toril, no?
I think this translates well to Abeir. After all, we are told: "...even the concept of gods who answer prayers is still alien to many...".
This would differentiate Abeir from Toril in a fundamental manner, and make the clash of cultures far more real and intriguing. Not only would a religious "push" exist--Toril's churches trying to grab new converts--but a "pull" would as well--Abeir's people might actively seek religion, something that had long been denied to them.
No differences should be made- what differences are there between a person worshiping Lathander in a cathedral dedicated to him, some person worshiping Akasi in a shrine dedicated to her, some person worshiping Mephistopheles in a 'hidden place' sacred to him, and so on?
Uhhm, well, Lathander doesn't demand child sacrifices, does he?
Anyway, Yakman already pointed it out. Perhaps primordials don't grant spells. And this would already be a major difference. And while Mephistopheles can grant spells to a certain degree, this is not as extensive as the granting of spells by deities. Additionally, deities may be the only group of those three here that are dependent on mortal worshipers.
Perhaps the Primordials don't grant spells? Perhaps there is no "divine" magic in Abeir?
-We already know that they do. For 25, more or less, years of the Forgotten Realms, Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, and Ishtishia have been [insert name du jour] granting people spells. Why wouldn't they do this in "Abeir", when we have them doing this in "Toril"?
Uhhm, well, Lathander doesn't demand child sacrifices, does he?
-And, Shar does (not necessarily children, but we see sacrifices made to Shar in the Twilight War trilogy). Shar is a deity. 'Deity', 'Primordial', 'Devil', 'Demon', ultimately, all of these entities behave very similarly in that they are metaphysical entities that grant people spells and are worshiped and so on. Making stupid labels like, "Deities have churches, while 'Primordials' have cults" is, asides for being a great blanket, extremely dense, for a lack of better words.
-We already know that they do. For 25, more or less, years of the Forgotten Realms, Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, and Ishtishia have been [insert name du jour] granting people spells. Why wouldn't they do this in "Abeir", when we have them doing this in "Toril"?
You can't just ignore the change in the rules here. While Kossuth and the others were deities in previous editions, in 4e they aren't deities anymore, they are primordials. And just because the FRCG says they were worshipped like deities in the past doesn't necessarily mean that they did grant spells to their servants in the same manner or to the same extent as the deities to.
-And, Shar does (not necessarily children, but we see sacrifices made to Shar in the Twilight War trilogy). Shar is a deity. 'Deity', 'Primordial', 'Devil', 'Demon', ultimately, all of these entities behave very similarly in that they are metaphysical entities that grant people spells and are worshiped and so on. Making stupid labels like, "Deities have churches, while 'Primordials' have cults" is, asides for being a great blanket, extremely dense, for a lack of better words.
Nonetheless, there is a fundamental difference between these entities. Just because they grant spells and are worshiped and have churches, cults, nothing, or both leads to the opinion that they are similar, but effectively, they aren't.
Aside from the fact that I mentioned above, that deities are as dependent on mortals as mortals are on deities, that archdevils and so on are not at all, there are other things that distinguishes a deity from an archdevil, their nature, their origin, their alignment. Shar demands sacrifices not because every deity does, but because she's evil. So sacrifices isn't something that distinguishes or even connects deities and the other guys but rather something certain groups (i.e. the evil ones) of the deities, primordials, cosmic entities demand.
You can't just ignore the change in the rules here. While Kossuth and the others were deities in previous editions, in 4e they aren't deities anymore, they are primordials. And just because the FRCG says they were worshipped like deities in the past doesn't necessarily mean that they did grant spells to their servants in the same manner or to the same extent as the deities to.
-As Steve Schend said on a similar issue, "You can state that 'this is how it is now' and claim that 'it's always been like this;' that's fine from a game rule POV, but as for the lore already established, it can't be dismissed so readily...That's my suggestion--honor the older lore, rather than force a lot of unnecessary changes retroactively because of a decision made for the game side of things."
-As I said, we have ample evidence of Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth and Ishtishia (and Ubtao; forgot him.) granting people spells. You just can't disregard that because now, in the 4e rules, they are 'Primordial' entities that aren't supposed to grant spells. Nothing specifically says that they don't grant worshipers spells anymore, so we should assume that things are business as usual for them, unless something gives us reason to think that it isn't. Now, if something said, "In XXXX DR, Akadi, Grumbar, Kosshuth, Ishtishia and Ubtao had Z happen to them, and as a result, they spurn their worshipers, ignoring them and not granting them spells", that'd all be fine.
Nonetheless, there is a fundamental difference between these entities. Just because they grant spells and are worshiped and have churches, cults, nothing, or both leads to the opinion that they are similar, but effectively, they aren't.
Aside from the fact that I mentioned above, that deities are as dependent on mortals as mortals are on deities, that archdevils and so on are not at all, there are other things that distinguishes a deity from an archdevil, their nature, their origin, their alignment. Shar demands sacrifices not because every deity does, but because she's evil. So sacrifices isn't something that distinguishes or even connects deities and the other guys but rather something certain groups (i.e. the evil ones) of the deities, primordials, cosmic entities demand.
-Hence my point: Putting blankets that state, "Deities have churches, 'primordials' have cults; Deities have worshipers, 'primordials' have cultists; Deities have 'X', 'primordials' have 'Y'" is a foolhardy way to do things, when such terms and definitions are variable, and nearly transparent to begin with.
-As Steve Schend said on a similar issue, "You can state that 'this is how it is now' and claim that 'it's always been like this;' that's fine from a game rule POV, but as for the lore already established, it can't be dismissed so readily...That's my suggestion--honor the older lore, rather than force a lot of unnecessary changes retroactively because of a decision made for the game side of things."
I can't help, but that makes me laugh. Really. It's like that at first they (WotC, of course ;)) disregard ANY previous lore that was ever established, and now we're advised not to disregard the lore. :D
I think that primordial are Gods... only of the Elements. I think what they meant by saying that they didnt pray gods was more that they prayed nature (The Fire Lord, the Water Lord... etc) but never taught they could pray for good fortune with a Human representation.
FRCG p.78 on Primordial: " The few primordials that remained in Toril when Abeir split away never fought the gods as their fellows did. These primordials are sometimes worshiped as deities despite their elemental origin. "
So on Abeir, Kossuth might be the Lord of Fire and Destruction (Evil) and Akadi, Lady of Air and of Good. They're would also be the presence of maybe Tiamat and/or Bahamut has "gods" of dragons. Like I said before, those could have been real Great Ancient Elderly dragons that Tiamat and Bahamut would have spawned before the split of the two worlds. But they would be minor powers compared to the Elemental Lords.
Maybe Markustay could draw us a map...at least with Unther, Mul and Maztica.
-We already know that they do. For 25, more or less, years of the Forgotten Realms, Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, and Ishtishia have been [insert name du jour] granting people spells. Why wouldn't they do this in "Abeir", when we have them doing this in "Toril"?
their choice to remain in Toril may have changed them, such that they could grant spells.
it may also be that the return of Abeir changed them back to "true" primordials, unable to grant spells--plunged into the Elemental chaos and away from the Outer Planes, they are cut off from granting spells, even if they cared to.
Primordial are only reprensented by they're nature. Fire is Fire (Kossuth would look like a huge fire elemental). But priest, shamans or cleric would receive spells from Kossuth, Lord of Fire.
#1, I can go the simple route - the Weave was a construct that not only allowed a simpler means for mortals to access Arcane Magic, but also allowed them simpler access to Divine magic as well (we know this from canon, since Mystra can indeed 'cut-off' a god from his worshippers through the weave).
When the Weave was in-place, it was like having a feeding bottle in a hamster cage - the god would give some of his power to Mystra for her Weave (the feeding bottle), and then the 'bottle' would feed some to the masses in bits and drabs. The god used it because it made their life easier - they didn't have to deal with giving out spells directly (which accounts for a lot of why some priests still get spells, even when they are doing things completely against their god). Basically, when a god used this interface (and all but Shar did, AFAIK), it was like putting their religion on 'auto-pilot'.
Primordials also used the system (and perhaps a few Arch-Fiends like Orcus), because it was the only way for them to grant spells to their followers. Without the Weave, they had no such abilitty.
BAM!!! Mystra dies, the Spellplague rolls across Toril, and the rules have changed.
Thats the simpler solution.
#2
The more difficult one to wrap your mind around is the more cerebral one. Spells come from within - there is no 'divine power'. Mortals are taught from birth that in order to get 'priestly spells', one must worship a god. Mortals of TORIL, that is.... when we know damn well that such a thing isn't so on other worlds, where people can worship concepts, or even a potted plant, for that matter. Obviously, mortals on Toril have been brainwashed into thinking the god was actually neccessary. We also have the official Spelljammer rules to fall back on - spells up to a certain level (3?) are granted automatically, even when a prest is in a spher with NO gods! That means that lower level spells are generated by the act of worship, not by the deity itself. Higher level spells do indeed need a deity, but it doesn't have to be yours - whatever diety holds that particular portfolio in a given sphere will give out spells to beings contributing to that portfolio (even if their god isn't present within that sphere).
So what we have here is a case of beliefs. People used to get spells from Kossth and Istishia and whoever else before because they believed they could. According to the rules, lower level spells don't even need a god - the power comes from within. In the case of higher spells, whatever deity felt the closest to the worshippers actions could have granted the spells. If a Kossuthian Prest wanted powerful fire spells to burn down churches of Cyric, you know damn well Bane would have gladly granted him those spells. In the case of Istishia, Eldath may have been providing the power on dry land, and Umberlee on the water. Akadi would have been covered by Talos, and Grumbar by Chauntea.
In theory #2, the reason why people aren't granted spells anymore is because they stopped believing in these beings as gods (because they now know they are something else). With that loss of Faith came a massive loss of power. Even if other gods had been granting the more powerful magics, those priests are no longer petitioning for those spells in the name of those Primordials, becasue they have lost their Faith.
Personally, I like #1 better, because it's more mechanically sound, but if you are of a more spiritual bent, I offer #2 as an alternate. You could even combine them - the Weave came down, spells weren't granted (above level 3), and the priests all lost their faith in the Lost century.
Either way, the bases are covered.
I can't help, but that makes me laugh. Really. It's like that at first they (WotC, of course ;)) disregard ANY previous lore that was ever established, and now we're advised not to disregard the lore. :D
-Steve Schend is an independent contractor, so to speak, and a good guy who doesn't seem to be tied up with a lot of the bureaucratic type of stuff that I often get the perception that Rich Baker does. As such, he can be a lot more vocal about things, since they are only *his* opinions- but *his* opinions are important, to us, being who he is.
-What Steve said is logic: "Things were like this, and you can't just magically make them different- that'd have major repercussions on the setting itself." Specifically, we were talking about the new aging conventions of Elves, and why the need to be ignored- many things wouldn't be possible, or make sense, when plenty of Elven events are viewed through the prism of those 4e rules. A "Narbondel Moment", if you will.
#2
The more difficult one to wrap ypour mind around is the more cerebral one. Spells come from within - there is no 'divine power'. Mortals are taught from birth that in order to get 'priestly spells', one must worship a god. Mortals of TORIL, that is.... when we know damn well that such a thing isn't so on other worlds, where people can worship concepts, or even a potted plant, for that matter. Obviously, mortals on Toril have been brainwashed into thinking the god was actually neccessary. We also have the official Spelljammer rules to fall back on - spells up to a certain level (3?) are granted automatically, even when a prest is in a spher with NO gods! That means that lower level spells are generated by the act of worship, not by the deity itself. Higher level spells do indeed need a deity, but it doesn't have to be yours - whatever diety holds that particular portfolio in a given sphere will give out spells to beings contributing to that portfolio (even if their god isn't present within that sphere).
So what we have here is a case of beliefs. People used to get spells from Kossth and Istishia and whoever else before because they believed they could. According to the rules, lower level spells don't even need a god - the power comes from within. In the case of higher spells, whatever deity felt the closest to the worshippers actions could have granted the spells. If a Kossuthian Prest wanted powerful fire spells to burn down churches of Cyric, you know damn well Bane would have gladly granted him those spells. In the case of Istishia, Eldath may have been providing the power on dry land, and Umberlee on the water. Akadi would have been covered by Talos, and Grumbar by Chauntea.
In theory #2, the reason why people aren't granted spells anymore is because they stopped believing in these beings as gods (because they now know they are something else). With that loss of Faith came a massive loss of power. Even if other gods had been granting the more powerful magics, those priests are no longer petitioning for those spells in the name of those Primordials, becasue they have lost their Faith.
So, I think the Ur-Priest belongs to number 2. Just to point this out ;)
-Steve Schend is an independent contractor, so to speak, and a good guy who doesn't seem to be tied up with a lot of the bureaucratic type of stuff that I often get the perception that Rich Baker does. As such, he can be a lot more vocal about things, since they are only *his* opinions- but *his* opinions are important, to us, being who he is.
-What Steve said is logic: "Things were like this, and you can't just magically make them different- that'd have major repercussions on the setting itself." Specifically, we were talking about the new aging conventions of Elves, and why the need to be ignored- many things wouldn't be possible, or make sense, when plenty of Elven events are viewed through the prism of those 4e rules. A "Narbondel Moment", if you will.
I didn't want to blame Mr. Schend for some obvious mistakes (from my own pov) of a certain company. So, well, uhm, sorry for that.
Anyway, Narbondel Moment... good to know.
Specifically, we were discussing when something happened, when the only reference we had was that it happened when a certain ancient Elf was 'very young'. Depending on the edition, that timescale just shifted form 1000 years ago to about 200.
In that light, we have to use our common sense and realize the incident still would have happend a 1000 years ago, because it was written in the context of 2e.
We don't change Toril's history to fit the new rules - we have to figure out a very good reason for why Elves don't live as long now. All Steven Schend was saying is that the edition the lore appeared in must be taken into consideration when applying it to your games.
No differences should be made- what differences are there between a person worshiping Lathander in a cathedral dedicated to him, some person worshiping Akasi in a shrine dedicated to her, some person worshiping Mephistopheles in a 'hidden place' sacred to him, and so on?
My take on it is this:
Gods respond to mortal faith. They're created by it and shaped by it.
Primordials, celestials, and the like don't and aren't. They may have a fondness for mortals (although most primordials, and note that I said "most," don't care about their mortal worshipers one way or the other - they care about the elements and reshaping them, whether mortals happen to get in the way of that or not), but their power comes from the elements, not from worship. Mortal worship doesn't and can't change them. There's a reason the Zakharans call the elemental rulers "the cold gods," and it's not because they're all associated with ice.
Fiends and celestials are creatures of the Outer Planes/Astral Sea, and thus more creatures of belief than elementals are, but their power comes from the philosophical forces they personify rather than mortal worship. Mortal worship may give them a boost, but it's not something they need, and it doesn't change their fundamental nature.
Because of this, the experience of worshiping a god - a being created and shaped to serve mortal needs - is different from worshiping anything else. A being like Lathander or Selune, for all that they might predate mortals as such (which is irrelevant, as "god time" is different from mortal time), or even beings like Torm and Bane who were once mortal themselves (in some sense, though the part of them that is divine was never mortal), are beings born to answer mortal fears and desires. Prayer directed at these beings resonates at a deep subconscious level, the level of Jungian archetypes, the level where mortals eternally remember being born, reproducing, and dying, the level where the songs and prayers of all their ancestors eternally repeat, adding to the growing choir.
There's a reason that in Toril, gods are worshiped in preference to anything else. It's not because they provide cleric spells. Anything can grant cleric spells. You can, as Eric Boyd once pointed out, get cleric spells from worshiping a chair or something if you have the right feat.
There will always be those who, in search of power or out of peer pressure or tradition, some other reason, will choose to revere an impersonal elemental force or an uncaring beast rather than a deity. But for all the dark rewards Mephistopheles might offer, worshiping a god will always be more psychologically rewarding. There's a line in a Salvatore novel where Drizzt suggests that by worshiping the gods of good we are honoring that which is best in ourselves. A corollary might be that in worshiping the elemental gods we are honoring only our physical makeup; they can speak to our bodies, but not our souls.
I was under the impression that it was the Spellplague that turned the landscape of Faerun into a Yes album, rather than bleed from Abeir. I don't think Abeir is naturally any more like Roger Dean's art than Toril is.
-As in the problem with Narbondel. In 2e, when Drow had heat Infravision, it made sense. In 3e, Drow had Darkvision, not Infravision. The entire purpose of Narbondel- allowing Drow to "tell the time" based on looking at Narbondel in the infrared spectrum to see how much heat the stone still had left in it from the Archmage's casting- is suddenly gone with the rules switch.
I guess ignorance is bliss.
Gods respond to mortal faith. They're created by it and shaped by it.
-My point of contention was with the definition of 'Deity' as opposed to 'Primordial' was. With Archdevils, Demon Lords, Slaadi Lords, Primus, and other established Planar entities, it's already firmly grounded that these things are not deities, while they may behave as deities. I, personally, like the concept that there are things in existence that are as strong, or stronger, than deities, but aren't deities. So, with things labeled 'deity' and things labeled [Insert planar entity], there is a fair amount of distinction. With 'Deity' and 'Primordial', problems begin to arise. The chief problem is that what were once entities that were firmly in the 'Deity' camp are now 'Primordials', and that, unlike Archdevils, Demon Lords, Slaadi Lords, Primus, and others, the details that differentiate the definition of 'Deity' and 'Primordial' are fairly thin, defined poorly (in my opinion)- and purposefully so, to allow a quick transition of terms from previous information to current 4e information.
I was under the impression that it was the Spellplague that turned the landscape of Faerun into a Yes album, rather than bleed from Abeir. I don't think Abeir is naturally any more like Roger Dean's art than Toril is.
-Given that we don't know too much about "Abeir", as opposed to 'Returned Abeir', it's anybodies' guess.
However, I got my idea for the nomads by combining the Abber Nomads of the Ravenloft seting (who were said to come form some unknown world with shifting landscapes) with the ones in the novel Secret of the Sixth Magic, the not-so-excellent sequel to rather excellent Master of the Five Magics.
As for the "land under Shadow", I know that I've seen that somehwere before as well - probably the old Elfquest series.
Still, if Toril got 'screwed over' by the Spellplague, then it makes sense that Abeir did as well (since AFAWK, the same exact things happened there).
As fo Rip's take on Primordials, I can see where he is coming from. However, I'd like to add that beings with portfolios - and Primordials got 'em - gain power from usage of their portfolios, which means Kossuth may not give a rat's arse about his priest, but he sure as heck cares about all the fire the guy is spreading around. They don't recieve power from the 'worship', but they still benefit from having a 'religion'.
Ergo, an Elemental lord - or Primordial, if you prefer - would still 'support' their priesthoods, even if they didn't care about the priests themselves.
Also, just to add something new to the topic -
We could also say that Jhaamdath - or at least part of it - wasn't really destroyed by the Elves - the ritual they used transported a very large section of to Abeir (and the water rushed-in to fill the void, destroying the rest).
Now we have the Dathite Imperium, who use their strange powers of the mind to keep the Empire of Skord at bay. We can pretty-much take Sarlona right out of Eberron and drop it in for this.
Hmmm... then again, we could just say Eberron is really Abeiron.
It actually fits pretty well... lets see if the Eberron setting gets our Maztica. :P
Anyhow, if we go that route with Jhaamdath, and say it wound-up in Abeir, we could do that with just about anything similar, including Meyeritar (Yeah! REAL dark Elves!)
As for the primordials and divine magic... this has bothered me for awhile. However, it seems to me that the intention of the 4e developers is that divine magic flows from powerful immortals (so archdevils still get their cults) and elemental magic flows from powerful elementals (like primordials or titans). So it's my guess that primordial cults won't really get dealt with until at least PHB3, when I expect the (confirmed) elemental power source to make its debut.
Until then, I'm pretty sure that the RPGA is pretending that primordials do grant divine magic, even though Rich Baker has said otherwise, since that seems to be what the Character Builder suggests (since you can select a primordial as your deity). Once the elemental source is introduced, however, I expect this to be quickly retconned out.
It won't be unprecedented. After all, druids aren't considered divine casters either anymore. They're primal casters.
You can, as Eric Boyd once pointed out, get cleric spells from worshiping a chair or something if you have the right feat.
Don't underestimate chairs. They're vengeful creatures that shouldn't be relied upon. ;)
I always talk to my plants, but I haven't begun to worship them... yet.
Maybe if they grant me some spells I'll think about it...
Actually, I believe Eric actually used a Potted Plant as the example.
I always talk to my plants, but I haven't begun to worship them... yet.
Did he really use that example?
If so...*facepalm*
There are several that do pretty-much the same thing, so he suggested just rolling them all together and call it that.
I had the same thoughts about circle magic - there are three Feats that all accomplish the same exact thing, associated with three different groups. Why not have one feat, and when you create a PrC, just say thats the Feat they have.
Oh... wait... that wouldn't pad-out page counts....
And just to get this back on-topic
Every nine years, for some reason sages cannot explain, Shar's 'Dark Moon' gets a shimmering purplish halo around it. For thirteen days the moon glows, rising in intensity up until the seventh day, and then getting dimmer each day until the last.
Those thirteen days are known as the Black Moon's Harrowing, and on those nights the dead become restless, and stir from their graves. It is said the seventh day is the worst, when the unearthly purple glow is at its brightest, pouring forth its waves of negative energy down upon Abeir relentlessly.
On that night, not only do the fell creatures stir and Shadows rule the dark, but the Greater undead - Liches, Vampires, Ghoul Lords, and Mummys - have their dread power magnified ten-fold! Armies of skeletal warriors and shambling zombies have been known to overun entire Kingdoms, and no being is safe on that evening. Whole peoples have disappeared overnight, never to be seen again... until the rise of the next Black Moon.
Some whisper the Eminence of Araunt is the cause of this threat, while others say they are working to stop it. The only thing anyone knows for sure is that the Eminence is far more active on those nights, whatever their plans may be.
I like the notion of a sister world to Abeir-Toril, but dislike the name-retcon, and I don't think I'm the only one who does.
BTW Markus, I love the map you made a while back that has an alternate placement of Laerakond and Evermeet on the Trackless Sea. I intend to use it in my homebrew FR (but then again, I love all your maps.):P
-My point of contention was with the definition of 'Deity' as opposed to 'Primordial' was. With Archdevils, Demon Lords, Slaadi Lords, Primus, and other established Planar entities, it's already firmly grounded that these things are not deities, while they may behave as deities. I, personally, like the concept that there are things in existence that are as strong, or stronger, than deities, but aren't deities. So, with things labeled 'deity' and things labeled [Insert planar entity], there is a fair amount of distinction. With 'Deity' and 'Primordial', problems begin to arise. The chief problem is that what were once entities that were firmly in the 'Deity' camp are now 'Primordials', and that, unlike Archdevils, Demon Lords, Slaadi Lords, Primus, and others, the details that differentiate the definition of 'Deity' and 'Primordial' are fairly thin, defined poorly (in my opinion)- and purposefully so, to allow a quick transition of terms from previous information to current 4e information.
-Given that we don't know too much about "Abeir", as opposed to 'Returned Abeir', it's anybodies' guess.
Well in fact, if you read Faiths & Avatar AND Faith and Pantheon, Kossuth is not stated as a Deity... but a primordial. I didn't check for the others "elemental Lords" but they may be stated the same way. As per those book, they are stated has "aliens" to Toril. Which, sadly, back-up all this God vs Primordial War... even when Eric L Boyd wrote Faiths & Avatar. So Abeir might have been true for a long time...
By the way, since we we already have a semi-official name (Laerakond) for the new landmass on Faerun (a.k.a. "Returned Abeir"), has anyone thought up (or thought to ask Ed or WOTC for) an alternate name for Abeir?
The assumption is that it was always called Abeir.
The inhabitants called it that, which is why the people of Toril called laerakond 'Returned Abeir' (which the people of Laerakond never would have - that would make no sense)
I like the notion of a sister world to Abeir-Toril, but dislike the name-retcon, and I don't think I'm the only one who does.
I'm dealin' with it - I'm thinking that RE was some continent east of Sarlona on Eberron, an Eberron itself was enclosed in a invisble pocket of Realmspace on the far side of the sun all these years (which is why Eb has such a strange cosmology - its actually a pocket-plane with Realmspace).
That means that I have a ready-made Abeir for any future campaigns I run, and thats where any Warforged or Shifters or any other nonsense can come from - from the far side of the sun!
BTW Markus, I love the map you made a while back that has an alternate placement of Laerakond and Evermeet on the Trackless Sea. I intend to use it in my homebrew FR (but then again, I love all your maps.)
Thanks :embarrass
I just wanted it in a more-useful location - I hate the idea people aren't using it. It had nothing to do with 'saving Maztica', and everything to do with folks getting the most out of the lore.
Laerakond isn't bad - in fact, if Ed made it, you KNOW it's damn good. Its just the way they introduced it and where they stuck it that blew chunks.
I was going to start another thread entitled Un-Retconning Abeir: It was Always there!, but decided this stuff could easily go here.
In the Kara-Tur thread, had come to the conclusion (quite some time ago) that the Lacerial - those creatures that are identical in every way to the Saurials, right down to the individual subraces - were in fact of the same race as the Saurials. The only probably with that is that Lacerials are NATIVE to Toril!
My thoughts on the matter here is that the Lacerials/Saurials were part of much larger Sauroid race during the Age of Thunder, but one branch of that race - the Sarrukh - betrayed the others, and drove them from Toril tens of thousands of years ago.
Except for one small group - the Lacerial - that hid-away in the densist jungles. In that way, the Saurials of the Lost Vale aren't 'castaways', but rather, they just came home finally. Whats this got to do with the topic? Simple - the world the saurials came from was Abeir!
Think about it.. it makes perfect sense (the first thing Elminster did when he got there was fight Dragons, and that Saurial Mage said his world was ruled by the beasts).
Case #2 - The Shalarin! They just got brought-up over at CandleKeep, and immediately I realized the potential there - the Sea of Corynactis is actually located on Abeir! Here's another example of how we can tie elements of Toril's past to Abeir's.
Case #3 - The Orgate Wars - Grey Orcs are from Abeir! How simple, right? While the ones on Toril never got a chance to really evolve, and stayed at a savage tribal level, the ones on Abeir may have had a chance to develop a sophisticated culture of their own. Unfortunately, the Thayans somehow figured out how to open an ancient sealed portal (Imaskari?) to Abeir, and had some Demon Lord (like Eltab, or some other) corrupt the Orcs of Abeir and managed to gather an army to invade Toril. I say 'corrupt', because I'm thinking they had a more 'balanced' approach to life previously, a'la Eberron or Warcraft's Orcs. The Ondonti could even be a 'lost tribe' from Abeir as well.
I've already mentioned the Abber nomads (from Ravenloft), who seem a perfect fit, and I'm sure if we dug-around in other lore we could establish more connections.
Hell... we could even say Athas is just a wasteland-continent on Abeir - after all, it is a world with NO gods. :D