If it's true, then what will happen to FR then in the future? No "Magic of", "Dragons of", "Lost empires of" etc. sounds like they're trying the get rid of the setting for good.
Stand alone adventures after that is all you'd need.
Here's my homebrewed list of what's been released so far:
All works are © the listed year by Wizards of the Coast, Inc. Additionally, certain phrases are protected by ⁚ held by Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
"Backdrop: Cormyr" by Brian R. James. Dragon 365 (July 2008): 16-24.
Blackstaff Tower, a novel by Steven E. Schend, 2008.
"Children of Darkness" by Robert J. Schwalb. Dragon 367 (September 2008): 63-73.
"Ecology of the Genasi" by Rodney Thompson. Dragon 367 (September 2008): 5-15.
"Epic Faerûn" by Richard Baker. Dragon 367 (September 2008): 17-22.
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide by Bruce R. Cordell, Ed Greenwood, and Chris Sims, 2008.
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide by Rob Heinsoo, Logan Bonner, and Robert J. Schwalb, 2008.
"Forgotten Realms Thunderspire Conversion" by Greg Bilsland. Dungeon 156 (July 2008): 106-111.
"Hall of the Frostmaiden" by Brian R. James. Dragon 367 (September 2008): 26-30.
"Gontal" by Bruce R. Cordell and Ed Greenwood. Dragon 366 (August 2008): 50-52.
"Keep on the Shadowfell: Forgotten Realms Conversion" by Greg Bilsland. Dungeon 155 (June 2008): 4-17.
"Magic in the Forgotten Realms" by Bruce Cordell. Dragon 362 (30 January 2008).
Mistshore, a novel by Jaleigh Johnson, 2008.
"Primordial Paths" by Greg Bilsland. Dragon 367 (September 2008): 61-63.
"Rose Keep: A Red Wizard Enclave" by Bruce R. Cordell. Dragon 366 (August 2008): 41-49.
Scepter Tower of Spellgard: An Adventure for Characters of 2nd-4th Level by David Noon and Greg A. Vaughan, 2008.
"Spellplague: The Wailing Years" by Brian James. Dragon 362 (27 February 2008).
Swordmage, a novel by Richard Baker, 2008.
"Year of the Ageless One" by Rich Baker. Dragon 362 (11 January 2008).
3 full books is enough to cover any campaign world.
Stand alone adventures after that is all you'd need.
Even if it were 3 sourcebooks, that would hardly be enough. Actually, not at all.
Even if it were 3 sourcebooks, that would hardly be enough. Actually, not at all.
Enough for me and the groups I've played with.
Enough for me and the groups I've played with.
Then you should say this. Otherwise, you'll bring people to heavily disagree with you, or worse.
Then you should say this. Otherwise, you'll bring people to heavily disagree with you, or worse.
No. Stating my opinion is enough for me. Just like you didn't back up yours... ;)
Pot, kettle.
No. Stating my opinion is enough for me. Just like you didn't back up yours... ;)
Pot, kettle.
There was no need for me to back up my opinion, simply because I responded to your statement, which easily could be misunderstood not for what it is but for something that's 'universally valid'.
There was no need for me to back up my opinion, simply because I responded to your statement,
And I was responding to the OPs statement so no need for me to back up mine...
Pot, kettle.
And I was responding to the OPs statement so no need for me to back up mine...
Pot, kettle.
No, your response was something completely different, 'cause you claimed something the OP even wasn't explicitly asking for.
I'm sure you can see the difference between your and my answer, now.
Actually, I find it kind of refreshing - it's not really FR so much as a new campaign setting, and it's practically standalone from the 1300's FR.
There wasn't a clause that force your group to follow and buy the additional sourcebooks that came out.
-You, my friend, did not read Section 42, Article 4, Clause 19, Paragraph 4, Line 2, it seems.
-You, my friend, did not read Section 42, Article 4, Clause 19, Paragraph 4, Line 2, it seems.
I must have missed it since I stopped on paragraph 2 stating that Elminster or Drizzt (sometimes both) will appear in each and every game set in the Realms to kick all the PCs in the nuts (female characters get polymorphed into males (no save) so they can experience the impact), crap in their backpacks, and steal their significant other.
But seriously, I hardly see how things were as bad as some say. Nothing in the books forced people to include the NPCs or forced groups to follow every sourcebook the day it came out. While the Old Realms might have overexposed the NPCs, it did not mean that had to be the immutable situation in your personal game. Still, 4E does not change the situation with the NPCs that much (the most blatant and obvious ones still exist), and the novels still advance the setting. All the "bad" things are still there.
If someone doesn't like the amount of 3E info, just play with the FRCS and the Core Rules.
There was nothing stopping your group from making the PCs the heroes. Elminster, the Simbul, Drizzt and a good number of famous NPCs still exist (and are still quite capable) in 4E. There wasn't a clause that force your group to follow and buy the additional sourcebooks that came out. They were optional and you could use them if and only if your group decided on it.
It still amazes me that there are people who don't understand such a simple and obvious thing
It still amazes me that there are people who don't understand such a simple and obvious thing
Please stop trying to make this thread a referendum on the validity of Zousha_Omenohu's opinion about the Realms.
Please return to the topic.
:::::::::::::::::
Thank you Christopher_Rowe for that extensive list of 4E Realms.
That should be made a sticky so people can see there's more in print that one might realize.
Seriously though, it is a valid point, in that a lot of the notions of D&D in general, and the Realms in particular, 4e seems to be doing its best to eradicate were summed up nicely in Zousha's post there. They're fallacies that have never been objectively true of the game or the setting, despite many opinions to the contrary, which are finally being addressed by WotC. While there was obviously a problem with that perception being at least somewhat prevalent, at least from WotC's perspective, that still doesn't make it the actual case.
We've always been free to do whatever we want with this stuff, FR or whatever, at home, and nothing has changed in that regard. That some felt some obligation or requirement to treat everything published as Holy Writ wasn't exactly the fault of the setting or the company, considering at least some effort was put into dispelling that notion in every edition of the Realms that I've ever looked at, at least on some level. Hardly the game, or the setting's fault that so many seem to have chosen to ignore that advice.
So, from what I can tell, the point has some merit, as it dovetails nicely with something that WotC seems to be trying to accomplish themselves, seemingly successfully judging by the number of times I've seen words to that effect of late... but that still doesn't mean that it (freedom to do what you want with the Realms) wasn't always the case from the very beginning.
... it didn't make a difference what the PCs did because status quo was God and you'd inevitably be upstaged by the established heroes, like Elminster and Drizz't. With this, its almost saying that their time has passed, and the PC's time has just begun! :fight!:
I disagree with what you're saying, but I'll simply point out that both Elminster and Drizzt are still alive in the 4E Realms.
Well, Miscellany, you're credibility isn't that great, considering the sheer amount of fog that likes to lurk in the Bay Area, Mr. Sunshine... :P :D
You got me there. :embarrass
Of course if you go just a tad south of San Francisco and Oakland, it's perpetual sunshine.
So who wants to take bets WotC produces another FR Hardcover before the one year anniversary of the FRCG and FRPG?
This negative perception has far outgrown the reality (the highest resolution of geographic detail is of a number of optional-use villages, etc, and there are high-level NPCs, good and bad, who can't act for various cold-war reasons), so it's become a reflexive refutation nowadays, especially here in the home-forums. Honestly, we're just trying to tell you how good the setting is/was.
You could expect the same if you walked into Psionics and complained about overpoweredness of sci-fi elements, or Eberron for warforged/halflings/steampunk/metaplots/artificiality, take your pick. :p
***
Back on topic, I don't think they'll go back on their promise of 2 books and 1 adventure for each setting, and the DDI articles are going to be quite randomised. Well, at least for a couple of years, until they get bored of their current model.
Ironically, I think people who want to know more, and many will, will have to go back to the older edition sourcebooks to get what they want. Just as those of us who joined in 3.x grew to love the 2e and 1e material, many 4thers will soon discover and love the classic Realms. Go on, come to the Dark Side, it's fun. :D
You got me there. :embarrass
Of course if you go just a tad south of San Francisco and Oakland, it's perpetual sunshine.
So who wants to take bets WotC produces another FR Hardcover before the one year anniversary of the FRCG and FRPG?
This, is true. Which is why I was glad my family moved from Santa Clara county early on in my life... though during the summers I tend to wonder about the wisdom of moving to Wine Country as an alternative to Oakland.
I'll bet that they don't myself, but I'd prefer a gentleman's bet over anything else, since I've learned enough by now to never say never when it comes to most businesses. ;)
Most of what I've said about the main NPC characters is based on hearsay that I've pick up wandering around the forums, which is mostly bashing, which I'm certain is hardly accurate.
-There you go.
Thank you Christopher_Rowe for that extensive list of 4E Realms.
That should be made a sticky so people can see there's more in print that one might realize.
the problem though is a lot of it is on-line mag stuff, which is not to me the same as a good old-fashioned sourcebook. Its at least 1 or 2 steps below it
Damn. Just gave wizards an idea, perhaps?
Beyond the gambling game we play with it, I like most of the information they've put out for us in the online mags, though I can say I miss the physical copy of them in my hands.
Still wish I had found the old mags sooner, I really wish I could have nabbed a copy of Shackled City, Savage Tide, and... Whatever the one that went in-between those two was, I can't remember.
-Give him a good punch in the stomach, and that'd settle that.
He's not even interested in 4e. He wanted to stick with 3e, but now he's discovered 2e and he likes it even more.
Do you mean in terms of format or in terms of quality?
frankly, both
I always prefer books I can open up and peruse to looking up something on a laptop or desktop.
But two of my players prefer their laptops to lugging around their books.
As for quality...not all the articles about the Realms in Dragon (or adventures in Dungeon) were that great to begin with. They were hit and miss in my book.
From my PoV the stuff in Dragon so far is better simply because it's new and I like learning new things about the Realms. But that's just me.
I realize the newness factor won't be a big draw for some folks, of course.
18DELTA
Perhaps I'm merely misinformed about what the Realms are like. I've only skimmed the 3e Campaign Guide and played the Neverwinter Nights series of PC games, so I obviously don't have much information. Most of what I've said about the main NPC characters is based on hearsay that I've pick up wandering around the forums, which is mostly bashing, which I'm certain is hardly accurate. I'm sorry if I misrepresented what I know and don't know, and humbly ask to be enlightened.
With all due respect, based on what you just said, it is highly likely you've been misinformed.
That said, if I was to "enlighten" you, I could do it better if you asked more specific questions (and perhaps it'd be better for you to be "enlightened" in a different thread).
The format is fine, in my opinion, but the quality is... Hit or miss. My hope is that someday, once the information becomes more populated, they'll release something like a collective PDF (even I'm not optimistic enough to hope for a hard copy) of all of the FR information to-date from the last year. Make it an annual thing? "FR Compendium, 200X" or something.
Damn. Just gave wizards an idea, perhaps?
I think Rich Baker has suggested the possiblity (note that word) of hard copies of the online magazine content.
-I really like the Players Guide. The Swordmage is pretty kick butt. And you can use the Mechanical stuff in any setting. :D Did I say the Swordmage is pretty kick butt already? Oh yeah I did! :D
18DELTA
I suppose you may be right. But I just have no interest in reading anything about the 4-Gotten Realms at this point
I fully expect them to eventually have more sourcebooks for FR, but if they keep the information more generalized about the areas and maybe the political climate, but skip specific NPC's, that would allows groups to build thier own campaign without having to deal with a bunch of overlapping stories tied to regional high level NPCs and a few realms wide NPCs.
I fully expect them to eventually have more sourcebooks for FR,
based upon what exactly?
I think Rich Baker has suggested the possiblity (note that word) of hard copies of the online magazine content.
I can confirm that there will be dead-tree "Best of" versions of the magazines. I believe that Amazon (or perhaps Chapters, I don't recall) has one available on pre-order.
-THIS.
Thanks LK!!
Hmm, such a book might well be worth buying, and Amazon has a good price for it.
why?
I'm starting to think thats the only thing in the book.
Why is it everytime someone mentions how great the FRPG is, they bring up the Swordmage?
I'm starting to think thats the only thing in the book.
-Yeah, it's one page, didn't you know? $29.99 (or whatever) for one page, but that's one damn good page. It's made of gold foil and bejeweled.
why?
Because, I like a lot of the core material so far.
Because perhaps she likes 4E rules and she may not want to shell out money for DDI. This may suit her needs as well as others who like 4E and do not wish to buy into DDI. Possibly, or I could be completly wrong. ;)
No, you're pretty much on the mark.
I also prefer to read hard copies of text, instead of staring at the computer screen for too long.-Yeah, it's one page, didn't you know? $29.99 (or whatever) for one page, but that's one damn good page. It's made of gold foil and bejeweled.
Well, you're exaggerating, of course, because the Swordmage material covers lots of pages, especially when you take the paragon paths and feats dependent on the class into account.
That said, I personally found a ton of great stuff in the FRPG, lore and crunch alike.
Now, to me, it's a non-starter, for a lot of reasons. To judge something--whether considering strictly its own merits or in comparison to it merits to those of what it may be following on (and both of those are fair ways to consider the fourth edition Realms)--to judge it based purely on a quantity, though, when that quantity is, let's be honest, neither fixed nor a descriptor of the contents of whatever happens to be inside of those boxes that are marked ONE, TWO, THREE... Well, for me, it's a non-starter.
But for some it is, so I went to find some more quantities. The Fourth Edition Realms were launched 52 days ago. During those 52 days, 1256 pages of material in the form of 16 different works of fiction and game design have been released (639 game design/617 fiction). Prior to the launch, 363 pages of material in the form of 4 different works of fiction and game design were released (11 game design/352 fiction).
Tonight, the 52nd night of the Realms, I have, here in my office, 1619 pages of Realmslore, spread across 20 works of fiction and game design, created by 15 cover credited-writers supported by untold dozens of editors, artists, designers, and cartographers.
What do those numbers tell you about what the Realms are? What does they tell you about where they are going? What do the numbers tell you about the people who made those pages?
I don't know about you. Don't tell me nothing.
To come to the conclusions I have, I read all 1619 of 'em.
-Yeah, it's one page, didn't you know? $29.99 (or whatever) for one page, but that's one damn good page. It's made of gold foil and bejeweled.
-No, it's 11 pages of Swordmage greatness! ;)
18DELTA
Yes, but how much do you have if you take out the novels? I'm talking game design only, because I have no interest whatsoever in the novels.
Well, those numbers are in my post, but okay. 650 pages of game design total (and I'm not counting things like interviews and so on, I'm speaking strictly of setting description, scenarios, and rules), with 639 pages in the last, now, 53 days.
Which still doesn't really mean much of anything, unless somebody thought it would be fruitful to figure out how many pages of game design were published in the first fifty days of Realms 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 and 3.5. The numbers don't speak to the content though, they merely describe its quantity.
-Yeah, it's one page, didn't you know? $29.99 (or whatever) for one page, but that's one damn good page. It's made of gold foil and bejeweled.
Actually all the game stuff in it is quite good. The swordmage and Shadow Pact Warlock stuff is really fun. The feats are not bad either and the Spellascarred idea is useable for any game. People in my Eberron game might even use it at one point. The genasi races are fun and their are lots of new Paragon Paths that are interesting. I am not bothering counting pages but that is alot of fun items for players of D&D and not just FR fans.
I will buy into the DDI because I have been mining every article for ideas. The antagonists alone in each adventure have helped me out greatly. There might be a trap or poison or artiact in there that might just be what I am looking for and so for me it is good stuff.
-No, it's 11 pages of Swordmage greatness! ;)
18DELTA
-They all can't be bejeweled.
-They all can't be bejeweled.
-Well they are! :P
18DELTA
:88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul Because, I like a lot of the core material so far.
but its Dungeon Mag right?
but its Dungeon Mag right?
-Presumably, the same will be done with the materials in online DRAGON magazine. That'd make sense, anyway.
-Presumably, the same will be done with the materials in online DRAGON magazine. That'd make sense, anyway.
presumably but I haven't seen it advertised myself
But...
I suspect the point of the 'three books' (which is actually only really two, since one's an adventure) query is that they can't possibly cover the Realms in as much depth as we've come to expect in just three (much less two) books. Which obviously will be the case, since I suspect that's pretty much part of the plan, so as not to overburden us with baggage outside of a steady stream of baggage-laden novels...
-Amazon.com only had that online DUNGEON thing.
According to a podcast interview I just listened to (Gamers with Jobs, Gencon Interview) the "best of" book will contain articles from both Dragon and Dungeon magazines. However, that was back in August, and things may have changed since then.
Part of why I never got into FR, other than the cost prohibitiveness of it, was the fact that since the world was fully developed on its own, it didn't make a difference what the PCs did because status quo was God and you'd inevitably be upstaged by the established heroes, like Elminster and Drizz't. With this, its almost saying that their time has passed, and the PC's time has just begun! :fight!:
So you're saying that you made the mistake of placing too much importance on pre-made NPCs, novels, plots, etc.
See, all of that is fine. But you DO get to choose what to include in your own games {you do realize that, right?} & how.
So what if WoTC churns out a new novel every week? So what if book x had stats for whoever? You don't have to use them. Hells, you don't even have to buy/read them....
Personally I look at the novels and all I see is a chronical of how someone else's game might have run. Interesting at times, & I may/may not steal an idea or two, but certainly not cannon at my table.