But what worries me more is the possibility that the novel line could be greatly diminished if sales of the Sundering novels don't meet expectations. I'd like to get some answers as to why those two novels were canceled. Did they feel like we wouldn't have purchased them? Was there some story lines in them that didn't fit with what they have planned for the Sundering?
So if you are a dedicated novel reader and want to see more stories released and not less please let your thoughts be known here. We need to get WoTC's attention to let them know that there is a market for Realms stories. At the very least set up a place where authors can write and release online short stories from the WoTC website. It's a great model and I know it would be very popular with the fans.
Getting things like pages dedicated to maps or a list of the cast of characters would be nice too.
It's the little things like this that make Realms novels better. It's what makes them stand out and be awesome.
In a world of shrinking shelf space and fewer brick and mortar stores (my favorite Barnes & Noble just closed), WotC's novels need to be the best they can be or otherwise find ways to be unique, as opposed to being more or less like every other novel out there.
Although that Rise of the Zhentarim: Bound by Blood sounds very interesting, I would definitely pick up something like that. Not sure about Demon Weave what is a demon weave anyways? Theyre not adding in another 'Weave' of magic are they?
I'll admit Im not a big fan of the novels, I spend most of my money on the game products, most of the novels ive read have been too over the top and changes the Realms forever or whatever or theyre so mediocre that it just puts you to sleep.
Although that Rise of the Zhentarim: Bound by Blood sounds very interesting, I would definitely pick up something like that. Not sure about Demon Weave what is a demon weave anyways? Theyre not adding in another 'Weave' of magic are they?
the demon weave is a creation of Lolth..... or is something she is attempting to create
I can only assume they weren't making the profits they'd like to see, and decided to try the ebook format. I don't buy ebooks, myself. I still have a hard time paying for something on which I can't lay hands. Maybe that's a hurdle I'll be forced to overcome, eventually, but I haven't yet.
As Mirtek said, judging the future of the novels upon the sales of the hardback releases of The Sundering series could be unfortunate. I never buy hardback novels. If I really want to read them soon after release, I can simply check out a digital copy from the library and read it on my iPad for free, without even getting off my butt.
I hope we get more novels, in the future. I'm happy, at least, that the Erevis Cale storyline will see another book. Eberron is my favorite world, and has seen a much higher percentage of well written books, in my opinion. Yet, the Eberron line, presumably even more niche than FR, was basically moth-balled. It's sad, considering the talented writers with great characters and stories yet to tell.
But the only whole in that theory is that they've already delt with the Demon Weave in at least two other novels.
Which novels if you don't mind me asking? I'm not really up to date with what happens in the novels. I started reading reading FR novels again a while ago and I'm slowly catching up.
Why the Demon Weave novel wasn't published is something of a mystery, but it does probably have something to do with WotC's plans for the Sundering. Maybe something in it didn't quite "jive" with what they intend for the future, or perhaps it conflicted with something revealed about Mystra or the blueflame items in Elminster Enraged, or maybe it was cancelled for another reason.
And I think it's more than a little odd that Lolth's plot wasn't even mentioned in the Elminster trilogy.
Interesting, 61 views but only one person responds. Maybe I over estimated the interest in Realms fiction. Kind of a shame if that is true.
I haven't been very interested in recent Realms fiction, except for the last Elminster trilogy. And while I very much enjoyed the first two books of that, the last one - Elminster Enraged - ended pretty badly IMO. Super cheesy.
If they want me to buy into the Sundering, it better be spectacularly good, character-driven, and not just another massive RSE.
But the only whole in that theory is that they've already delt with the Demon Weave in at least two other novels.
Which novels if you don't mind me asking? I'm not really up to date with what happens in the novels. I started reading reading FR novels again a while ago and I'm slowly catching up.
The Spider and the Stone and Spinner of Lies are the two I can think of off the top of my head. I think there are a few more novels that it was mentioned in but not delt with directly.
But the only whole in that theory is that they've already delt with the Demon Weave in at least two other novels.
Which novels if you don't mind me asking? I'm not really up to date with what happens in the novels. I started reading reading FR novels again a while ago and I'm slowly catching up.
The Spider and the Stone and Spinner of Lies are the two I can think of off the top of my head. I think there are a few more novels that it was mentioned in but not delt with directly.
See, this is the attitude that I have a problem with and the attitude which I think is killing the Realms fiction. There have been so many people who have boycotted Realms products either due to the changes brought on by the edition changes or as in your case a percieved lack of quality. There is even a third sect who are boycotting due to WoTC's policy of selling some novels as eBook only. I feel that these boycotts might be doing their job too well but having unintended consequences. Instead of giving into demands, WoTC seems to be in "Put Up or Shut Up" mode for the fiction line.
Sure, I haven't liked or agreed with some of the changes or directions that the Realms have taken over the past 20 years. But for me, as long as it was set in the Realms I was going to get some form of enjoyment out of it. Not every novel can be a great novel, or even a good novel. But for me, most of them have been very enjoyable. So I buy every novel I can. If it's not a well written one, then that is a loss I am happily willing to accept in order for the brand as a whole to remain strong.
See, this is the attitude that I have a problem with and the attitude which I think is killing the Realms fiction. There have been so many people who have boycotted Realms products either due to the changes brought on by the edition changes or as in your case a percieved lack of quality. There is even a third sect who are boycotting due to WoTC's policy of selling some novels as eBook only. I feel that these boycotts might be doing their job too well but having unintended consequences. Instead of giving into demands, WoTC seems to be in "Put Up or Shut Up" mode for the fiction line.
Sure, I haven't liked or agreed with some of the changes or directions that the Realms have taken over the past 20 years. But for me, as long as it was set in the Realms I was going to get some form of enjoyment out of it. Not every novel can be a great novel, or even a good novel. But for me, most of them have been very enjoyable. So I buy every novel I can. If it's not a well written one, then that is a loss I am happily willing to accept in order for the brand as a whole to remain strong.
If you keep buying things that you don't actually like, I'd consider that a waste of money. But more than that, it sends the message that you're still more than happy to buy low-quality and/or disliked material. The only thing they hear from a sale is "more of the same, please" and nothing else.
It's true that not every novel can be a great - or even good - story. But it's not my responsibility or duty to support a novel, splatbook, or supplement that I passionately dislike or won't use. I'm just a customer, and they will not have any incentive to change unless people vote with their wallets.
Quite frankly, the Realms have changed quite dramatically - so much in fact that it seems like an entirely different setting to me. So if they're planning on keeping the Spellplague/TimeJump as part of history rather than doing a re-set, then this "Sundering" better be the most top-notch story they've ever done. Don't blame me or other customers if it fails, though - they did this to themselves.
See, this is the attitude that I have a problem with and the attitude which I think is killing the Realms fiction. There have been so many people who have boycotted Realms products either due to the changes brought on by the edition changes or as in your case a percieved lack of quality. There is even a third sect who are boycotting due to WoTC's policy of selling some novels as eBook only. I feel that these boycotts might be doing their job too well but having unintended consequences. Instead of giving into demands, WoTC seems to be in "Put Up or Shut Up" mode for the fiction line.
Sure, I haven't liked or agreed with some of the changes or directions that the Realms have taken over the past 20 years. But for me, as long as it was set in the Realms I was going to get some form of enjoyment out of it. Not every novel can be a great novel, or even a good novel. But for me, most of them have been very enjoyable. So I buy every novel I can. If it's not a well written one, then that is a loss I am happily willing to accept in order for the brand as a whole to remain strong.
If you keep buying things that you don't actually like, I'd consider that a waste of money. But more than that, it sends the message that you're still more than happy to buy low-quality and/or disliked material. The only thing they hear from a sale is "more of the same, please" and nothing else.
It's true that not every novel can be a great - or even good - story. But it's not my responsibility or duty to support a novel, splatbook, or supplement that I passionately dislike or won't use. I'm just a customer, and they will not have any incentive to change unless people vote with their wallets.
Quite frankly, the Realms have changed quite dramatically - so much in fact that it seems like an entirely different setting to me. So if they're planning on keeping the Spellplague/TimeJump as part of history rather than doing a re-set, then this "Sundering" better be the most top-notch story they've ever done. Don't blame me or other customers if it fails, though - they did this to themselves.
I feel that maybe 1-2 books a year that I buy/read are sub-par and that is a cost I am willing to eat for the 8-9 entertaining books I get from them each year. I want to see the Realms do well and to continue to be provided with entertainment from this IP. But as for this voting with your wallet thinking. I could understand your mentality if WoTC was putting out mostly sub-par products. But they aren't. Most of it is is very good and very entertaining....at least from the fiction side. So answer me this. Do you believe that more than half of the 10-12 novels released per year for the past 10 years have been sub-par and not worthy of your attention? How many of the 4E novels have you even read?
I feel that maybe 1-2 books a year that I buy/read are sub-par and that is a cost I am willing to eat for the 8-9 entertaining books I get from them each year. I want to see the Realms do well and to continue to be provided with entertainment from this IP. But as for this voting with your wallet thinking. I could understand your mentality if WoTC was putting out mostly sub-par products. But they aren't. Most of it is is very good and very entertaining....at least from the fiction side. So answer me this. Do you believe that more than half of the 10-12 novels released per year for the past 10 years have been sub-par and not worthy of your attention? How many of the 4E novels have you even read?
Game-side, the last thing I bought was an adventure in 3.5E. I've seen and read all the 4E material and will not buy it because I don't like any of it.
Novels-side, the last thing I bought was the Baker trilogy with Araevin. Everything since then, I've read but have borrowed from friends or from the library (more often the library, as my friends have also stopped buying a lot - especially digital books).
As such, I've read every novel and have seen every supplement, except for some of the non-Realms supplements. I don't really follow Eberron, and I've missed some general rulebooks. But the Realms? I've read 95% of it, and I haven't been impressed.
And I also didn't like everything that happened in 2E-3E either. But I did buy almost all of it, novels and game books. Big difference IMO.
So would you rather have more novels released per year with just the text and maybe a few maps here and there? Or less novels but everyone has a map and a character list?
To the extent that it's feasable for the story, I'd like to see a map included in every novel, regardless of how many are published per year.
If it's a city-based novel, give me a map of where the most action is in that city.
If it's a regional adventure, give me a map of the region.
Regardless of map type, make it interesting. it doesn't have to be uber-detailed, but it ought to include relevant locations featured in the story and hopefully shed light on a place not previously detailed/lightly detailed in existing Realms products.
In that way a novel can also be like a miniature sourcebook. This makes it more collectable for Realmslore enthusiasts. I've based a lot of my campaigns around events in novels.
If the novel can include a character list or something Realmslore related (maybe some clarifying information about an interesting element of the novel that is otherwise only briefly mentioned in the context of the story), all the better.
I get the sense that the reason we don't see at least a map in every novel is due to the cost. It maye be a small cost, but I don't think the addition of maps and other such material would bring the sales to cover the cost of these additions. This is at least for print. I think with the lowered cost of producing eBooks, this would be a more cost effective addition.
I grant that it might be cheaper in ebooks, but I don't think a single printed page with a map on it is really that terribly expensive to produce. WotC has got to have so many maps on file that I can't imagine it being that hard to resize a map and update a map key.
I feel that maybe 1-2 books a year that I buy/read are sub-par and that is a cost I am willing to eat for the 8-9 entertaining books I get from them each year. I want to see the Realms do well and to continue to be provided with entertainment from this IP. But as for this voting with your wallet thinking. I could understand your mentality if WoTC was putting out mostly sub-par products. But they aren't. Most of it is is very good and very entertaining....at least from the fiction side. So answer me this. Do you believe that more than half of the 10-12 novels released per year for the past 10 years have been sub-par and not worthy of your attention? How many of the 4E novels have you even read?
Game-side, the last thing I bought was an adventure in 3.5E. I've seen and read all the 4E material and will not buy it because I don't like any of it.
Novels-side, the last thing I bought was the Baker trilogy with Araevin. Everything since then, I've read but have borrowed from friends or from the library (more often the library, as my friends have also stopped buying a lot - especially digital books).
As such, I've read every novel and have seen every supplement, except for some of the non-Realms supplements. I don't really follow Eberron, and I've missed some general rulebooks. But the Realms? I've read 95% of it, and I haven't been impressed.
And I also didn't like everything that happened in 2E-3E either. But I did buy almost all of it, novels and game books. Big difference IMO.
Well, at least you read the material. My purpose isn't to try and convince you or anyone to actually like what has been going on in the Realms. That's your business. I just want to see those who like the fiction to voice their opinion so that WoTC knows that we are here and we don't want to see a decline in the number of novels released.
So would you rather have more novels released per year with just the text and maybe a few maps here and there? Or less novels but everyone has a map and a character list?
To the extent that it's feasable for the story, I'd like to see a map included in every novel, regardless of how many are published per year.
If it's a city-based novel, give me a map of where the most action is in that city.
If it's a regional adventure, give me a map of the region.
Regardless of map type, make it interesting. it doesn't have to be uber-detailed, but it ought to include relevant locations featured in the story and hopefully shed light on a place not previously detailed/lightly detailed in existing Realms products.
In that way a novel can also be like a miniature sourcebook. This makes it more collectable for Realmslore enthusiasts. I've based a lot of my campaigns around events in novels.
If the novel can include a character list or something Realmslore related (maybe some clarifying information about an interesting element of the novel that is otherwise only briefly mentioned in the context of the story), all the better.I get the sense that the reason we don't see at least a map in every novel is due to the cost. It maye be a small cost, but I don't think the addition of maps and other such material would bring the sales to cover the cost of these additions. This is at least for print. I think with the lowered cost of producing eBooks, this would be a more cost effective addition.
I grant that it might be cheaper in ebooks, but I don't think a single printed page with a map on it is really that terribly expensive to produce. WotC has got to have so many maps on file that I can't imagine it being that hard to resize a map and update a map key.
I'm in the same boat, it can't cost that much more to add these small additions. But I'd take the devil's advocate view and tried to make the penny pinchers within the company arguement. But the bottom line for me is to preserve the current release schedule.
I'm in the same boat, it can't cost that much more to add these small additions. But I'd take the devil's advocate view and tried to make the penny pinchers within the company arguement. But the bottom line for me is to preserve the current release schedule.
I hear you there.
As I understand it, Hasbro has decread that the games side at WotC (i.e. D&D) has to hit its own revenue projections all on its own and can't be lumped in with Magic and everything else.
I wish the bean counters at WotC, as well as Hasbro management, would understand that D&D has never been the giant bag of money that Magic and collectable card games are.
While I'm sure they'd like to make D&D into a giant bag of money, 4th Edition and the failed Realms MMO hopefully made them realize you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
D&D needs to be about D&D first. That includes novels that have maps, quotes at the top of chapter headers and little additions like character lists or bits of Realmslore that make them distinctive and unique.
I say all this knowing full well that brick and mortar bookstores are closing left and right, so available shelf space is shrinking. To me this means WotC needs to try harder to stand out and be the best in order to grab some of that shrinking space.
So I started a discussion over on Candlekeep about the disturbing lack of novel releases coming in 2013. A few of the Realms authors have chimed in with the idea that WoTC is waiting to see how the Sundering novels sell before going forward with more or less novels per year. I find this pretty alarming since I felt that Realms novel sales have always remained pretty strong and steady. I've never seen any numbers on this, so I am just going on an assumption. I know that I buy every novel they release. I've also gotten pretty used to having at lease one Realms novel a month to read over the years (give or take a novel). But now things are starting to slow down and it looks like The Last Threshold coming out in March will be the last Realms novel until The Companions comes out in August. That's far too much of a void. There are two perfectly good novels that were set to be released in 2012 that have been canceled for some reason. WoTC should release Rise of the Zhentarim: Bound by Blood & Demon Weave in those intervening months.
But what worries me more is the possibility that the novel line could be greatly diminished if sales of the Sundering novels don't meet expectations. I'd like to get some answers as to why those two novels were canceled. Did they feel like we wouldn't have purchased them? Was there some story lines in them that didn't fit with what they have planned for the Sundering?
So if you are a dedicated novel reader and want to see more stories released and not less please let your thoughts be known here. We need to get WoTC's attention to let them know that there is a market for Realms stories. At the very least set up a place where authors can write and release online short stories from the WoTC website. It's a great model and I know it would be very popular with the fans.
Honestly, since the War of the Spiderqueen came out, I think the only realms novels I have read were the new Salvatorre books. Most of the other stuff that's come put, I've read the back, thought "That's not really sounding very interesting" and putting it back on the shelf. Before the War of the Spiderqueen I read just about everything. I can't say if my tastes have changed, or if the product line itself has changed, but regardlessm my interest in the novels isn't what it used to be. To be realistic, I very rarely read Dragonlance stuff anymore either, which I used to catch the vast majority of, so it's probably likely my tastes have changed.
I do want to read the Shadowbane stuff and the Brimstone Angels stuff, mainly because ESdB and EME have been very cool, and accessible here on the forums. Other than that though, very little really catches my eye anymore. I'm sure I can't be the /only/ person like that...so it's possible that sales are just down.
Up until mid-to-late 3E, it seemed that there was a lot of variety in the stories. Most of them also felt more like adventure and exploration, making discoveries and having hope.
With the return of Netheril, it quite literally cast a dark shadow over the mid-central core of the Realms. It felt like major setback after major setback, with loss of entire cities, increased conflict and outright wars. Just dark, dark, dark, negatives on top of more negatives. Gone are the days when I could pick up a new FR novel and just read a fun adventure that involved stopping the bad guys and discovering cool new things.
The Spellplague era took the heavy and dark to an even darker and heavier level. That's why I don't like it. Post-apocalypse heaviness with a proliferation of undead and demons, where demon pacts aren't all that bad and the celestials/angels all feel defeated and down, it's just not my thing. Humans are on the back-back-back shelf, with "special" races taking the limelight - but they aren't doing much better, things are still dark and depressing.
I think that's why I'm not all that excited for yet another cataclysm / Sundering, where things are so bloody bad that AO has to fix the world rather than a stalwart band of heroes. I'm not even all that interested in epic storylines that "save the world" every time. I'd rather have smaller scale, local stories that explore and adventure and fight the good fight.
So it's not my tastes, they haven't changed. It's the world, it changed.
But to my point, I never let a Realms story pass me by. As I said before, sure I am not happy with the direction the Realms has taken. But that is kind of the appeal for me. I am being taken on a journy by the authors and the rest of the Realms team who shapes the world. I enjoy the writing and the stories so in the end it doesn't matter what state the Realms is in.
I guess what it comes down to is that some people are in love with their vision of what the Realms is and that's why they get turned off when the designers change things so much from where it started. I on the other hand love the Realms as a living entity and thus I'm more OK with it's changes. I'm not saying either way is right or wrong. But it would explain why someone like me takes in everything they put out while others will only take in what fits with their vision of the Realms.
And on another note yes they need to stop screwing up the Realms.. They need to return more to the orignal realms. There is parts I do like of the new realms with the Abolethic Sovereignty among other things.
But say if they are wondering why people stopped reading the FR in droves is becasue like a long running tv show.. If you was to kill off 90% of the cast and then change the world to match closely to another world /show (Eberron) would you not feel betrayed and bewildered as to what the producers was smoking!!!!
People liked the realms because it was High power magic and epic. With writers who cared about the realms and or editors who made sure they did not muck it up and knew its rich history!!!!!!!!
Interesting, 61 views but only one person responds. Maybe I over estimated the interest in Realms fiction. Kind of a shame if that is true.
I think you underestimated the effect of the spellplague. It ended every plotline, killed off almost all of the major characters, all of the minor characters, and for many it invalidated previous material.
I think you underestimated the effect of the spellplague. It ended every plotline, killed off almost all of the major characters, all of the minor characters, and for many it invalidated previous material.
I think you overestimate the effect of the Spellplague.
While the event itself was deleterious to magic users and magic in general, it didn't "kill off" scores of major and minor characters.
The advancement of the timeline saw many NPCs pass away--as is quite natural for the passing of time--but there was no one deathstroke that slew all in an instant. Nor was their an edict proclaiming "in the 4E Realms, thou shalt not use prior material."
Likewise, the Spellplague did not "end every plotline". Many plots were not continued (that is, left off for DMs to do with as they please), but several continued.
Some (on the novels side) may yet be picked up anew.
I can relate to the "meh" feeling re: the Spellplague. I wouldn't want to watch the first movie in a trilogy, then skip the second movie because the third is "so much better" or some such.
But we're at where we're at. Let's just try to keep it real, OK?
I think you underestimated the effect of the spellplague. It ended every plotline, killed off almost all of the major characters, all of the minor characters, and for many it invalidated previous material.
I think you overestimate the effect of the Spellplague.
While the event itself was deleterious -(snip)
Please don't be pedantic. Many people use "the spellplague" as a catch-all for everything that happened in 4E Realms that collectively and dramatically changed the entire tone and feel of the setting. If this isn't obvious by now, especially given the context of the rest of his post, then I'm not sure what to tell you.
Please don't be pedantic.
It's good of you to ask nicely.
And you're right, to a degree: it is kind of pedantic to nitpick someone who's offering up a reason for why he or she thinks there's a low response level on this thread.
Many people use "the spellplague" as a catch-all for everything that happened in 4E Realms.
I'm perfectly aware of that.
I'm also aware that after four and a half years since 4E hit the shelves, you can still cut the Spellplague hyperbole with a knife.
"Everything that happened" does not include, "It ended every plotline, killed off almost all of the major characters, all of the minor characters."
You want less pedantry. I want less hyperbole.
I think you underestimated the effect of the spellplague. It ended every plotline, killed off almost all of the major characters, all of the minor characters, and for many it invalidated previous material.
I think you overestimate the effect of the Spellplague.
While the event itself was deleterious to magic users and magic in general, it didn't "kill off" scores of major and minor characters.
The advancement of the timeline saw many NPCs pass away--as is quite natural for the passing of time--but there was no one deathstroke that slew all in an instant. Nor was their an edict proclaiming "in the 4E Realms, thou shalt not use prior material."
No, but I think there was something of a proclamation "thou shalt not write prior novels". I've been hoping for more of the Knights of Myth Drannor books, mostly to no avail. I really hope Mr Greenwood can pick those up again some time and has an interest to do so.
I don't mind playing D&D in the realms. It's still a fairly comfy home for gaming, because my mind imagines really, what I'd mostly expect it to.
The novels though, well I can't say. I've bought a few on recommendations from others. I just havent been able to make myself start them. I read the short desriptions on the back, and the stories don't call out to me. I don't know why that is. Once upon a time, I was hard pressed to read fantasy that /wasn't/ from the Realms or Dragonlance. Now that's mostly reversed for some reason. Maybe it's that I tend to prefer stories about warriors and rogues than I do stories about magic users, and most of the new 4e stuff seems to be stories about magic users.
I definitely dislike all the "special races" hogging the limelight. At heart, I'm a Tolkein guy. Anything more then Elves, Dwarves, humans halflings, etc...core races...is just distracting.
"Everything that happened" does not include, "It ended every plotline, killed off almost all of the major characters, all of the minor characters." You want less pedantry. I want less hyperbole.
For something to count as hyperbole, it has to be a dramatic overestimation. The time advancement (aka "100-year empty hole of non-events") did actually get rid of almost every NPC detailed up to that point. Whether you say "killed off" or "made everyone die of natural causes with no follow-through" that's just semantics. Functionally, all those NPCs are dead and buried. Functionally, it's the same as killing everyone off.
Except for Drizzt, some of Mystra's Chosen, and a few long-lived/immortal types, they're all dead.
You have to remember, the designers at the time told everyone they should wrap up their campaigns and advance those 100 years. I was on the forums at the time. I saw the 4E transition articles. I can't even begin to imagine the number of home campaigns that this affected, but based on the angry response it was a lot. If you wanted to advance your game along with the "living story" of the Realms, you had to close up campaigns and wave goodbye to the massive amount of home-generated detail that every DM had created.
So the spellplague/timejump didn't just kill off (sorry, I meant dead-ify) all of the lower level NPCs that we had collected and used from 1E-3E (volo guides, splatbooks, guides, online references, even some novels), it also managed to dead-ify almost all the NPCs you'd created as a DM unless you'd made special arrangements for their immortality, sucked them into a time portal, etc.
It's not hyperbole.
Yes, you can take NPCs from old books that you haven't used and plop them into 4E. If you're starting a whole fresh game and maybe didn't play in the 2E or 3E era, you can certainly take NPCs you never used before and plop them down into your 4E Realms. But how many DMs and players have that option? Most people who used the Realms aren't new to it. They've used the 1E-3E NPCs in their campaigns, so those NPCs are dead if their player groups have transitioned to the 4E Realms. That's a LOT of dead NPCs in a whole LOT of campaigns around the world. This was not a small thing that happened, so you can't say that it's some kind of overestimation when someone says something true.
To start (and to make a desperate stab at keeping this wall of text I’m about to unleash at least mildly on topic -- sorry Caolin) I probably should have considered how people who only read novels felt before I made my first post in this thread.
A few years back Iluvrien (from these forums) helped me to appreciate the point of view that novel readers don’t have the same luxury of flexibility that DMs have in their campaigns when it comes to handling characters depicted in Realms fiction, but I forgot that lesson.
Jorunhast, I’ll be re-ordering some of your comments. I trust you can follow along.
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No. One is correct, the other is a bad word choice or, more often then not, equal parts hyperbole and an accusation that assumes bad intentions (this would be something of a corollary to your comment earlier, about how the term “Spellplague” is properly used and understood nowadays).
Based on your oft-repeated anti-4E Realms commentary, I’m pretty sure you don’t play in the 4E Realms. It follows you play in earlier eras (if you still play at all). How do you get along without any NPCs since, functionally, they’re all dead and buried?
Facetiousness aside, your statement simply isn’t true (despite your detailed effort to prove it below).
Yes, a timeline advancement means lots of beings will die and others will take their place. This provides a net increase of available NPCs for DMs to use, but we’ll ignore that for now.
I remember seeing comments like this when 4E was announced. With respect, it’s just as wrong now as it was then.
All of them.
Wait, who are we supposed to be mad at for this carnage? WotC? Or DMs and their players?
You’re right. They encouraged people—for the sake of playing the new D&D game, not just for keeping up with the Realms—to do this. However, that’s not the only options they gave. Far from it.
I think the idea of keeping up with the Living Story of the Realms is very important. You’ve hit on something that I think WotC either underestimated, overlooked or just plain forgot when the rolled out the 4E Realms.
Whether you say "killed off" or "made everyone die of natural causes with no follow-through" that's just semantics.
No. One is correct, the other is a bad word choice or, more often then not, equal parts hyperbole and an accusation that assumes bad intentions (this would be something of a corollary to your comment earlier, about how the term “Spellplague” is properly used and understood nowadays).
Functionally, all those NPCs are dead and buried. Functionally, it's the same as killing everyone off.
Based on your oft-repeated anti-4E Realms commentary, I’m pretty sure you don’t play in the 4E Realms. It follows you play in earlier eras (if you still play at all). How do you get along without any NPCs since, functionally, they’re all dead and buried?
Facetiousness aside, your statement simply isn’t true (despite your detailed effort to prove it below).
For something to count as hyperbole, it has to be a dramatic overestimation. The time advancement (aka "100-year empty hole of non-events") did actually get rid of almost every NPC detailed up to that point. (…snip and reattach…) Except for Drizzt, some of Mystra's Chosen, and a few long-lived/immortal types, they're all dead.
Yes, a timeline advancement means lots of beings will die and others will take their place. This provides a net increase of available NPCs for DMs to use, but we’ll ignore that for now.
Of more importance is the fact that the list of “every NPC detailed” is huge, which means it includes a large number of long-lived races and monsters. Off the top of my head: dwarves, elves, half-elves, many varieties of monsters (dragons, undead, aberrations), wizards, priests, those under the effect of magic or already trapped in stasis (an idea hardly new to the Realms).
In the modern era of the Realms, these NPCs are older, not dead.
But wait, there’s more!
So the spellplague/timejump didn't just kill off (sorry, I meant dead-ify) all of the lower level NPCs that we had collected and used from 1E-3E (volo guides, splatbooks, guides, online references, even some novels), it also managed to dead-ify almost all the NPCs you'd created as a DM unless you'd made special arrangements for their immortality, sucked them into a time portal, etc.
I remember seeing comments like this when 4E was announced. With respect, it’s just as wrong now as it was then.
You seem to be arguing that DMs—who have made a large number of NPCs for their campaign over time—all of a sudden are going to start complaining because they have to make more NPCs?
Also, your argument seems to imply that a DM has used every Realms NPC already in print (in all the sources you provided, of which there are easily several thousand) by the time the Spellplague hits.
In reality, most long-running campaigns will use no more than a fraction of them.
Those resources you named are far from being useless in the 4E era.
Yes, you can take NPCs from old books that you haven't used and plop them into 4E. If you're starting a whole fresh game and maybe didn't play in the 2E or 3E era, you can certainly take NPCs you never used before and plop them down into your 4E Realms. But how many DMs and players have that option?
All of them.
This includes re-using NPCs if you’re starting a game with all new players or if you’re running a game for a new group with one (or at most two) players from a previous game.
My current campaign (on pause for the holidays and because of work issues) uses the 3E rules and is set in Cormyr just after the war that saw Azoun IV fall.
I feel no obligation to play in 4E just because it’s the current era, I’ve made a ton of new NPCs to use and have borrowed heavily from the 4E era of the Realms (novels by Ed Greenwood mostly, plus Brian Cortijo’s recent Cormyr articles in Dragon and Dungeon) for NPC names and Cormyr info—about courtiers in the Royal Palace, Purple Dragon ranks and despicable nobles to pit against my players, amongst other things—and mixed it together with Volo’s Guide to Cormyr (2E) and (3E) adventures and gaming material I purchased, wrote and ran as part of a ten-years-running Realms campaign.
I really hope that in response you’re not going to tell me I’m not playing “in the Realms”.
Most people who used the Realms aren't new to it. They've used the 1E-3E NPCs in their campaigns, so those NPCs are dead if their player groups have transitioned to the 4E Realms. That's a LOT of dead NPCs in a whole LOT of campaigns around the world. This was not a small thing that happened, so you can't say that it's some kind of overestimation when someone says something true.
Wait, who are we supposed to be mad at for this carnage? WotC? Or DMs and their players?
You have to remember, the designers at the time told everyone they should wrap up their campaigns and advance those 100 years.
You’re right. They encouraged people—for the sake of playing the new D&D game, not just for keeping up with the Realms—to do this. However, that’s not the only options they gave. Far from it.
Like you, I was on the forums at the time. Unlike you (going out on a limb here) I sat through the 4E Gen Con presentations, where it was made pretty clear (just as it was online in the coming months after Gen Con) that DMs had the 100 year gap to play with. It was theirs to use to continue their older edition campaigns.
The designers weren’t just throwing people a bone here. They really did intend to give people as much time as possible to play in and didn’t discourage people from ignoring the Spellplague as step one in that process.
Additionally, you were presented with the option of advancing your own characters to the current time (though the lack of any workable rules conversion from 3E to 4E rules hampered this option) or simply playing the descendents of your PCs.
This last was the option my group chose, since we wanted to both continue our 3E game but also give the 4E rules a spin.
If you wanted to advance your game along with the "living story" of the Realms, you had to close up campaigns and wave goodbye to the massive amount of home-generated detail that every DM had created.
I think the idea of keeping up with the Living Story of the Realms is very important. You’ve hit on something that I think WotC either underestimated, overlooked or just plain forgot when the rolled out the 4E Realms.
I think WotC didn’t appreciate how connected lots of gamers were in one way or another to the Realms. I think this is why the time jump—however well intentioned—was so damaging, because it created a disconnect in terms of the story.
Though each DM’s Realms campaign is (and should be) different, lots of gamers like to feel at least some connection to the Realms and feeling like they’re part of the wider world they’ve read about in novels and sourcebooks, and I don’t think the FRCG and FRPG bridged that gap.
Since my group voted to continue our 3E game, but also start a 4E game 100 years in the future with some PCs descended from older PCs and the rest all new PCs, the questionI faced was the same one a lot of other DMs who were making a full transition to the 4E Realms did: how do I keep that feeling of “being in the Realms” if I move my game forward/play in the 4E Realms?
For me the answer certainly wasn’t to throw all my previous campaign work into the trashcan. I doubt it was for other DMs too.
In fact, absent any detailed support for the 100 year jump, the only thing I had to ground my players in the new Realms was our previous campaign. Granted, not all of my players cared about or wanted that Realms connection, but ultimately it made things easier for me because I had a base to work from.
And you know something, I enjoyed it.
For me it was something of a relief to start fresh, but still have a connection to what we did previously. I enjoyed playing the “what will my campaign in the Realms look like 100 years down the road?” mental exercise and envisioning NPCs as children in one era and adults in another, that both sets of PCs got to interact with.
I don’t think I’m alone in that sentiment.
By now it should be clear that DMs and players who voted to move their campaigns forward made that choice themselves. Nobody forced them to. Not all (or even most, I’ll wager) that did felt compelled to do so to keep up with the Realms. Some did because they had an interest in trying the new rules system and/or they were ready to take a break from their old campaigns. Some even played in both eras.
These campaign primarily lost access to NPCs that were human and previously used, while retaining access to thousands more NPCs spread across a wide array of Realms media, plus gaining access to hundreds more as new Realms products (sourcebooks, Dragon and Dungeon articles, and novels) became available, plus the opportunity to envision their campaign world with 100 years more history tacked onto it, meaning lots of surprises and developments and continuing storylines—especially if their campaign was already developed.
There were (and still are) a larger number of gamers who handled the transition or otherwise just didn’t care enough to let it bother them, because they understood that playing with the Realms doesn’t mean staying in lockstep with it.
Yes, the Spellplague sucked on many levels. However from a gaming standpoint this OMG THE SPELLPLAGUE=ALL DEAD! stuff is just so much defeatist hullaballoo.
Off to bed now. I reserve the right to edit this post when I wake up. Hopefully it gets the point across without driving anyone nuts.
Those authors who have sold me on novels set in the post-timejump period are Ed, Erik, Erin... and Rich. The Elminster series has been good, Erik is always superb, Erin is a new experience for me (but the ongoing book club is proving it to be a good new experience) and Rich's Blades of the Moonsea was also very enjoyable (although I still haven't really come to terms with The Last Mythal).
I have found it difficult to connect with other novels and stories that I have come into contact with set in this era. I do wonder if that isn't at least a small part of why this thread has been comparatively quiet. Others may have a similar difficulty.
Of course, another part might be the fact that these boards seem so quiet now. It certainly seems to be a different atmosphere this time around in comparison to the flurry of discussion (and argument) present for the 4E transition. Of course some of the more... vocal members of the community, as it existed then, have ceased to visit these boards in the intervening period.
Yes, the Spellplague sucked on many levels. However from a gaming standpoint this OMG THE SPELLPLAGUE=ALL DEAD! stuff is just so much defeatist hullaballoo.
And from the narrative/novel only (or even novel primary) point of view? This is, after all, a thread about WotC and the FR novels it produces. Of course, we have discussed this before. Interested parties could look up the previous conversations on the subject, I am sure.
But the reality is that none of that will happen. But what is going to happen is that Realms fiction is going to die a slow death because people are throwing fits that things changed too much or that they can't get their literature in dead tree form. You all sound like a bunch of old men screaming for us to get off of your lawns.
When the ship is sinking, everyone needs to focus on saving that ship. if we all sit in our corners hoping each of our demands are met then we all go down with that ship. So stop being stubborn about the timeline, stop being resistant to authors who aren't your favorites, and give up this silly notion that paper novels will ever be dominant again.
But whatever. I'm starting to recognize that I'm fighting a losing battle here. Maybe I'm in the minority here in feeling that I want the Realms fiction to continue at whatever cost. No one seems to care, and if they do they have demandes that most likely won't or can't be met. I guess I'll just enjoy it while it lasts.
I think you underestimated the effect of the spellplague. It ended every plotline, killed off almost all of the major characters, all of the minor characters, and for many it invalidated previous material.
I think you overestimate the effect of the Spellplague.
While the event itself was deleterious to magic users and magic in general, it didn't "kill off" scores of major and minor characters.
The advancement of the timeline saw many NPCs pass away--as is quite natural for the passing of time--but there was no one deathstroke that slew all in an instant. Nor was their an edict proclaiming "in the 4E Realms, thou shalt not use prior material."
Likewise, the Spellplague did not "end every plotline". Many plots were not continued (that is, left off for DMs to do with as they please), but several continued.
Some (on the novels side) may yet be picked up anew.
I can relate to the "meh" feeling re: the Spellplague. I wouldn't want to watch the first movie in a trilogy, then skip the second movie because the third is "so much better" or some such.
But we're at where we're at. Let's just try to keep it real, OK?
Yes it killed just about every major character and plot in the novels with the timeline advancement. Even the majority of the elves that may have survived are changed individuals by nature. Just off the top of my head I can think of all the non-elf characters from the two comic books, Jack Ravenwild Anders, Ruha Alusair, Azoun the 5th, Alias, Malik, the Sembia family, the characters from Temple Hill, and Yellow Silk.
Had to look up the word. Im not being pedantic. Im just being honest. I made a video about why I disliked the spellplague and didnt even cover it as well as I could have. I'm not even talking about why it was stupid. Im giving reason to why the novels might not be selling which has more to do with the timeline jump that killed the plots and characters.
I was asking Mr_Miscellany to stop being pedantic towards you. I felt that your post was clear and honest. I also agree with your perspective on the Spellplague/timejump. I'm sorry, I should have responded to him by name.
When the ship is sinking, everyone needs to focus on saving that ship. if we all sit in our corners hoping each of our demands are met then we all go down with that ship. So stop being stubborn about the timeline, stop being resistant to authors who aren't your favorites, and give up this silly notion that paper novels will ever be dominant again.
And what do you expect people to do? To throw their money (which -in many cases- is not abundant at all these days) at a corporate which drove many of them away (because apparently the FR needed 'fresh blood'), in the hope that one day it may publish something they could enjoy?
Yeah, totally going to happen...
Well I guess the way to sum this up is that everyone has demands on what THEY want the Realms to be. Otherwise they just won't make the purchase. I think a lot of you get confused into thinking that this is your setting some how. It's not. When it comes to the novels, we are merely passengers. If you want things to be different, then create your own world and tell your own stories. Or even better, save up a couple of tens of millions of dollars and try buying the IP from WoTC. Then you can put the setting back into 1987 mode.
Well, that certainly isn’t the way I would sum up my own post. I can only assume that you weren’t referring to me as being part of the “everyone”. Either that or you were incorrect.
I make no demands of the Realms. I never have. As you point out, the setting is not ours to drive (novel wise) and so as such making demands is not only futile but potentially damaging to the relationship between we the fans and WotC.
I do, however, have stipulations about which of their products I buy as a consumer. As is my right. One of those stipulations is that I will only buy a product that I will either enjoy, find useful or both. This is also my right.
But the reality is that none of that will happen. But what is going to happen is that Realms fiction is going to die a slow death because people are throwing fits that things changed too much or that they can't get their literature in dead tree form. You all sound like a bunch of old men screaming for us to get off of your lawns.
Again, I can only assume you weren’t referring to me with you “you all sound” generalisation. Personally, I do not see choosing to not buy a book because you get no enjoyment or use out of it as not only sensible but as an integral part of the experience. After all, if we all buy every product that WotC produces irrespective of whether we actually want it or not, they will have little to no idea of what we actually do want. Will WotC kill FR novels if a particular section of the line doesn’t do as well as they had hoped? I doubt it. FR novels have, if historical anecdotes are to be believed, proved to be a comparatively lucrative portion of the product market. Are they then more likely to prune failing novel lines/authors and concentrate on those that prove popular? Or try new things to see if they would be more popular? That seems far more likely to me, and far more like the way that businesses operate.
When the ship is sinking, everyone needs to focus on saving that ship. if we all sit in our corners hoping each of our demands are met then we all go down with that ship. So stop being stubborn about the timeline, stop being resistant to authors who aren't your favorites, and give up this silly notion that paper novels will ever be dominant again.
This is an horrendous analogy. The reason everyone on a sinking ship focuses on saving the sinking ship is to save their own lives and livelihoods. To compare this essential action with the purchasing of hobby materials using disposable income during a global financial crisis is verging on crass. As mentioned in my post, I listed several authors in the 4E time period (including Erin Evans who writes exclusively in the 4E time period) as being ones that I follow. I am trying others all of the time. Some, I am sure, will be added to the list of authors I will follow. Some won’t. Such is life.
But whatever. I'm starting to recognize that I'm fighting a losing battle here. Maybe I'm in the minority here in feeling that I want the Realms fiction to continue at whatever cost. No one seems to care, and if they do they have demandes that most likely won't or can't be met. I guess I'll just enjoy it while it lasts.
If you were the only one paying the cost of your crusade, then I would consider your suggestion as being all well and good. However, you are telling others to pay it too, and berating them when they raise objections. I won't go as far as to suggest that you are being hypocritical by making your own demands (in a similar fashion to that which you imply others are guilty of). This time.
I will make this plain again, just in case I failed to be clear the first time around.
1) I want Realms fiction to continue, I look forward to authors both new and old telling stories in whatever timeline they wish to tell them.
2) That said, I will not use my (very limited) disposable income to buy books that I do not enjoy.
Why is it that i never hear trekkies whining about the "time jump" between the original and the Next Gen or between the original tv show and the movies? That effectively killed off alot of character as well, but some, like Bones and Elminster are still around.
Because you don't hang out on Star Trek boards? Or the "television without pity" website, or similar TV show forums?
Every fandom has issues with IPs that last a long time and undergo changes. Some fans on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" websites get so involved with their show that they detail angrily why they don't like her hairstyle in a particular season. It all depends on how much particular fans feel invested in their respective fandoms, and whether or not they happen to like big changes that happen over time.
Well, that certainly isn’t the way I would sum up my own post. I can only assume that you weren’t referring to me as being part of the “everyone”. Either that or you were incorrect.
I make no demands of the Realms. I never have. As you point out, the setting is not ours to drive (novel wise) and so as such making demands is not only futile but potentially damaging to the relationship between we the fans and WotC.I do, however, have stipulations about which of their products I buy as a consumer. As is my right. One of those stipulations is that I will only buy a product that I will either enjoy, find useful or both. This is also my right.
Although you were responding to Caolin's post, I agree with what you're saying here. There is no need to make assumptions about what people think, or group people into categories based on rather insulting personal interpretations.
People like different things. I have no illusions (as has been suggested) that I "own" the Realms or need to have every single one of my expectations met. But at the same time, I have invested money, time, and my own design into Realms products over the decades.
As a customer, I reserve every right to buy the things that I like and not to buy the things I don't like or won't use. If I didn't care about the future of the Realms, that would be the end of it. But I do care, and so I make my opinions known - what I like, what I don't like, what will make me buy more things. I do not expect all or even most other customers to agree with my views, and never have.
I live a comfortable life in the first world. Even so, money does not grow on trees. Gaming products and novels are luxury items. When I look at any luxury item I have to ask, "why do I want this, and is it worth the price?" The OP is suggesting that we should support and buy everything, even when we strongly dislike certain products. Why? To support the company? To give them my good money and send the message that I think everything is still as I like it?
Sorry, no. In life you have to pick and choose, you have to discriminate in matters of taste. Especially for luxury products. It's actually unhealthy on a personal level to continually spend your extra "fun" money on things you don't like, for someone else's benefit. I buy things I like. It's actually nice of me as a customer to come and say to a company, "hey, I don't like X but I did like Y. Make more Y and I'll buy that."
Even the majority of the elves that may have survived are changed individuals by nature.
Novels, by their nature, change the individual characters in them.
What's the difference?
Just off the top of my head I can think of all the non-elf characters from the two comic books, Jack Ravenwild, Anders, Ruha, Alusair, Azoun the 5th, Alias, Malik, the Sembia family, the characters from Temple Hill, and Yellow Silk.
As I understand it Jack Ravenwild is still alive and kicking in "City of Ravens".
Princess Alusair is still around, albeit as a ghost and featured in at least two current era Elminster novels I've read.
Azoun V was discussed in both the Backdrop: Cormyr and Cormyr Royale articles.
Aren't books like Yellow Silk and Temple Hill one shots?
Did any Alias novels see print by the 3rd Edition of D&D? If the rather generous definition of "killed off" we're using includes "just not writing anything about a character anymore" then blame 3E, not 4E.
This last is important: I've yet to see anyone who's deeply into the novel line draw a distinction (or rather, at least recognize) that had 4E not happened, a whole bunch of pre-4E novel characters probably wouldn' have been written about anyway.
Now that some time has gone by and 4E has gotten older, I've read more Realms novels and found a few I enjoy.
I don't think you should give up so easily on the Realms (that is, Realms fandom). I think it's right for others to not purchase Realms novels or products that don't interest them and these are the people WotC should focus on.
However, anyone who dismisses a product simply because they're holding a grudge against WotC or tricked themselves into thinking "it's 4E, it must be bad" probably isn't someone WotC wants to keep as a customer anyway.
I hope you can see from the posts in this thread that people who don't buy current Realms novels don't necessarily fall into the later category.
Fortunately WotC has tried in the last couple of years to bridge the timeline gap and moved away from there insistence in leaving the past in the past. Ed Greenwood's Elminster's Guide to the Forgotten Realms and the layering of Realms history into current era novels (at least, in Ed's latest Elminster Trilogy) are mending things.
I agree that the Realms is worth supporting simply because it's the Realms. Hopefully people realize that whatever 4E's design origins and goals, things have already changed for the better and will continue to change.
Having said that, in general I would agree with Misc when he says that Elminster's Guide to the Forgotten Realms is a definite step in the right direction and a hopeful sign of things to come. But I also agree with others who are anti-Spellplague in that it was a horrendous decision that rippled negatively across the entire community, one way or another. It's effects on the meta-plot of the Realms aside, I don't think anyone can disagree that its impact on community relations has created an ugly rift that still leaves nerves raw and angry. And really, that's the worst part here, and it tends to poison things every time it rears its ugly head. That, for me, is what makes 4e such a horrible thing.
But on the other hand, it's also telling of the sorts of fans the Realms attracts to evoke such passion. Says a lot about Ed and the rest who've sheperded it along the years as well. I'm almost hopeful that Next/5e can salve some of the rancor and put the Realms back on course.
Novels, by their nature, change the individual characters in them.
What's the difference?
Let's take Drizzt as an example. He is an elf who survived through the 'plague and timejump.
All of his friends are dead. The other characters (the "Companions of the Hall") are now all dead - including Bruenor who recently met his end in a rather uncelebrated, non-epic and minor way. Drizzt has been miserable and broody, something of a lost soul, and his new "friends" (if one can call them that) are not supportive, heroic, or motivated by any of the principles expressed in the pre-plague books. This is perhaps an even darker time for Drizzt than his early life in Menzoberranzan because none of his current companions support or reflect his own values.
And don't forget, Drizzt firmly expressed his sadness about Eilistraee and her followers, believing that their efforts and sacrifices ultimately came to nothing. Is Drizzt wrong in that assessment? Think about it.
As a reader, it's extremely disheartening to read. I expected Drizzt to change and grow, but reading the current novels are depressing and he has ultimately regressed. RAS is an excellent author, so I am still reading them and liking them well enough to continue, but the charm of the other companions and Drizzt's nobility almost seem to be parodied. Was it all worth it, if Drizzt has to live in this dark new world? What's different about his experience in Menzoberranzan compared to his life in the post-cataclysm, post-volcano Neverwinter? It's killing, more killing, revenge, mourning the old days, missing his old noble companions, and then more killing. And apparently, Drizzt has had this same sad mood for the past 100 years.
Sure, it's still somewhat entertaining, but it's depressing to wade through and slowly killing my interest.
What is Drizzt without the Companions of the Hall? What would Arilyn be without her Danilo? What is Liriel without Fyodor? And yes, I know what happened to Fyodor at the end; frankly, I think it's a good thing we never got to see Liriel wandering around constantly depressed and mourning Fyodor like Drizzt has mourned the Companions.*
It's never just about the one that survivies when it comes to cataclysmic events. By the way, I do think Fyodor's end was poignant, important for the story, and necessary for Liriel's development, but that loss was an entirely different kind of thing and made Liriel grow.
Let's consider Cadderly's end story. For most of his life, Cadderly was a principled, cool guy serving a deity that had a noble purpose. At the end, Cadderly becomes someone who tortures demons (or was it a devil? but even so, torture? come on!) and then sacrifices his life for a deity that wasn't so much of a deity but a servitor-Exarch (or something equally minor) to Oghma. Thanks for reinforcing the concept, WotC, that some deities weren't what we - or even their priests - thought they were. And then, in a final and mostly meaningless gesture, Cadderly sacrifices his life for - for what, exactly? To somehow bolster something "metatexty" but extremely nebulous in one of the divine planes? Honestly, for a sacrifice to have any meaning, you have to see SOME effect in the world. We got nothing, really.
* having said this, I do think Cunningham could do an excellent follow-up on Liriel, but she'd have to introduce some new support characters.
Wow, lots of spoilers there.
All of his friends are dead. The other characters (the "Companions of the Hall") are now all dead - including Bruenor who recently met his end in a rather uncelebrated, non-epic and minor way.
Dude, Bruenor went one on one with a Pit Fiend.
I read that book. Even for non-gamers, soloing a Pit Fiend is hardly "non-epic".
Drizzt has been miserable and broody, something of a lost soul, and his new "friends" (if one can call them that) are not supportive, heroic, or motivated by any of the principles expressed in the pre-plague books. This is perhaps an even darker time for Drizzt than his early life in Menzoberranzan because none of his current companions support or reflect his own values.
.I've only read the first book in the series. I agree, Drizzt has fallen on hard times and is questioning his values.
Would you say the same is true for all elves in the Realms, though?
And that's really my point: characters change over time. That's not inherently a bad thing, even if everyone's favorite dark elf is having a rough go of it.
I appreciate, though, how seeing multiple characters go in a bad direction changes the tone of things. It's a different mood.
Thanks for reinforcing the concept, WotC, that some deities weren't what we - or even their priests - thought they were.
This I agree with. On the one had I like the attempt at a "big reveal" about a secret of the deities of the Realms, but on the other hand they (WotC) could have instead said that several deities of similar portfolios had to merge with each other to survive the Spellplague as opposed to saying the Spellplague laid bare the "truth of things" about the deities.
This is also my hoped-for lore fix regarding the deities in 5E.
That change did the Realms no favors. I, for one, ignore it.
Caolin, I think it's great that you're trying hard to get people to support the Realms novel line.
Now that some time has gone by and 4E has gotten older, I've read more Realms novels and found a few I enjoy.
I don't think you should give up so easily on the Realms (that is, Realms fandom). I think it's right for others to not purchase Realms novels or products that don't interest them and these are the people WotC should focus on.
However, anyone who dismisses a product simply because they're holding a grudge against WotC or tricked themselves into thinking "it's 4E, it must be bad" probably isn't someone WotC wants to keep as a customer anyway.
I hope you can see from the posts in this thread that people who don't buy current Realms novels don't necessarily fall into the later category.
Fortunately WotC has tried in the last couple of years to bridge the timeline gap and moved away from there insistence in leaving the past in the past. Ed Greenwood's Elminster's Guide to the Forgotten Realms and the layering of Realms history into current era novels (at least, in Ed's latest Elminster Trilogy) are mending things.
I agree that the Realms is worth supporting simply because it's the Realms. Hopefully people realize that whatever 4E's design origins and goals, things have already changed for the better and will continue to change.
You're right. I'm just a little frustrated. I really REALLY enjoy reading Realms fiction. Sure, I have passed on a few novels over the years. But for the most part I read them all. So when I see any drop in novel output it makes me sad. And when I hear that they are going to base the future release schedule on one series that's going to change things again, well I kind of lose a little hope that people will support it.
I'm not trying to say that people should always support the Realms with purchases if they don't like what is being produced. But I consider this a special situation where if we all don't get behind this then we all will lose something we care about collectively.
And Iluvrien, my post was not directed at you. I have seen a lot of sentiments here and over at Candlekeep that reflect what I was refering to in my post. I stand by what I said in my post. But again, it is meant for this situation. I am trying to get people to stand up and say to WoTC that we do want more novels and they don't have to base it's future on one series of novels. But I am starting to see that I might be in a minority of people who actually care.
Dude, Bruenor went one on one with a Pit Fiend.
I read that book. Even for non-gamers, soloing a Pit Fiend is hardly "non-epic".
"Dude" - he lost, he's dead. Will his people ever know? Will the final story of Bruenor's end be celebrated and sung in dwarven songs? Nope. Is the place he fought over now in dwarven hands, or even known to the dwarves? Nope! So it was a pit fiend. Had it been a tunnel rat, same difference.
And that's really my point: characters change over time. That's not inherently a bad thing, even if everyone's favorite dark elf is having a rough go of it.
I agree, going through rough patches is actually important for character development - but only IF it leads to character development and not regression. It's also not just happening to Drizzt. ALL of the novels have this dark, defeatest quality to them. I think the idea was to make things gritty and edgy, but it hasn't really worked out that way.
Let's take a totally new author - and book series: Brimstone Angels. Now I haven't read the 2nd book, so I can only speak to the first. But we have Farideh who has horns, distant demonic heritage - and a devil pact (maybe it's a demon pact - in 4E it's harder to tell the difference). This devil pact, however, has ZERO consequences. I get it, the diabolic stuff is mostly "cool factor" window dressing. But when making a pact with a devil or demon has no repercussions other than having an attractive and amorous half-demon follow you around like a puppy making googly eyes at you and being genuinely nice to you, that's pretty ridiculous.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking potshots at Farideh's creator/author. She's quite an excellent character writer, and the pacing and general story plotting is generally very good. But there's something seriously wrong with all the new novels - these kinds of things elevate "cool factor" imagery (ooh! Pit Fiend! ooh!) and make "good vs evil" irrelevant (diabolic LOLpacts R awesome). You never want to do that in what's theoretically heroic fantasy.
And Iluvrien, my post was not directed at you. I have seen a lot of sentiments here and over at Candlekeep that reflect what I was refering to in my post. I stand by what I said in my post. But again, it is meant for this situation. I am trying to get people to stand up and say to WoTC that we do want more novels and they don't have to base it's future on one series of novels. But I am starting to see that I might be in a minority of people who actually care.
Quite frankly, at the very least you owe me and Rory a public apology. You have projected your own rather obnoxious conclusions onto us (and yes, you obviously mean us - at minimum), and you continue to suggest that we don't care.
The fact that we are raising issues publicly means that we DO care, quite a lot, about the future of the Realms. But we do not want it to continue down the same path it's been on. If you buy into the current novels and supplements that support the overall image and tone of 4E, you are asking for more of the same.
I do not object to change in a general sense. I expect change. But I'm not going to buy - and therefore support - things that I strongly dislike.
Quite frankly, at the very least you owe me and Rory a public apology. You have projected your own rather obnoxious conclusions onto us (and yes, you obviously mean us - at minimum), and you continue to suggest that we don't care.
Don't be a ten percenter.
It's the internet, remember?
Don't be a ten percenter.
It's the internet, remember?
You better leave Britney alone, and Warcraft too!
And Iluvrien, my post was not directed at you. I have seen a lot of sentiments here and over at Candlekeep that reflect what I was refering to in my post. I stand by what I said in my post. But again, it is meant for this situation. I am trying to get people to stand up and say to WoTC that we do want more novels and they don't have to base it's future on one series of novels. But I am starting to see that I might be in a minority of people who actually care.
Quite frankly, at the very least you owe me and Rory a public apology. You have projected your own rather obnoxious conclusions onto us (and yes, you obviously mean us - at minimum), and you continue to suggest that we don't care.
The fact that we are raising issues publicly means that we DO care, quite a lot, about the future of the Realms. But we do not want it to continue down the same path it's been on. If you buy into the current novels and supplements that support the overall image and tone of 4E, you are asking for more of the same.
I do not object to change in a general sense. I expect change. But I'm not going to buy - and therefore support - things that I strongly dislike.
Well, I hope this was a tongue and cheek comment. If not, then too bad. I'll not apologize for expressing my opinion. I pointed out no one inparticular and the fact that some of you stood up and cried foul makes me feel that my words hit a mark somewhere.
But this is what irks the hells out of me. All I asked for is people to stand up a let WoTC know that we don't want to see the novels released per year reduced. It started off well with people expressing their opinions on the decreased released schedule and the cancelation of a few novels. But then it starts devolving into a "Well, I'm not going to read the novels unless they do this" thread. I didn't want this to be a debate about the quality of the novels or the direction of the Realms or whether someone should be buying something thay they don't like. I wanted to bring attention to the fact that we are getting less novels per year and it might become a permenent thing if we don't speak up.
Well, I hope this was a tongue and cheek comment. If not, then too bad. I'll not apologize for expressing my opinion. I pointed out no one inparticular and the fact that some of you stood up and cried foul makes me feel that my words hit a mark somewhere.
Expressing your opinion about a product is expected. Attacking other posters, even if you claim it was non-specific, is not cool. Being subsequently arrogant about doing so is even worse.
And seriously, you yourself lobbed the first attack at another poster (for their "attitude" and how they were supposedly "killing the Realms" rather than any flaws in their argument) in your reply to lord.duck (who you actually misquoted, as you obviously were referring to my post). If you didn't want to open up the thread to this type of discussion, you should not have personally driven us down that road and continued with more personal attacks.
Well, I hope this was a tongue and cheek comment. If not, then too bad. I'll not apologize for expressing my opinion. I pointed out no one inparticular and the fact that some of you stood up and cried foul makes me feel that my words hit a mark somewhere.
Expressing your opinion about a product is expected. Attacking other posters, even if you claim it was non-specific, is not cool. Being subsequently arrogant about doing so is even worse.
And seriously, you yourself lobbed the first attack at another poster (for their "attitude" and how they were supposedly "killing the Realms" rather than any flaws in their argument) in your reply to lord.duck (who you actually misquoted, as you obviously were referring to my post). If you didn't want to open up the thread to this type of discussion, you should not have personally driven us down that road and continued with more personal attacks.
Do not expect any support from me on anything you say in the future.
Well, first off I wasn't responding to Lord-Duck. I was responding to you and but accidentally responded to his response. I was responding to this comment:
"I haven't been very interested in recent Realms fiction, except for the last Elminster trilogy. And while I very much enjoyed the first two books of that, the last one - Elminster Enraged - ended pretty badly IMO. Super cheesy.
If they want me to buy into the Sundering, it better be spectacularly good, character-driven, and not just another massive RSE."
Secondly, you are a very very sensitive person and I find it funny how upset you seem to be getting over my comments. I'm nobody really and for that matter neither are you. I'm just a guy who wanted to bring attention to WoTC that someone out there cares about the cancelation of novels and the reduction of releases for 2013. So I'm honestly not too concerned about your future support.
Well, first off I wasn't responding to Lord-Duck.
Good grief, I know that. You were responding to me, and I said so.
Secondly, you are a very very sensitive person and I find it funny how upset you seem to be getting over my comments.
I hardly think that asking for basic civility is being "very very sensitive." Clearly, you don't care about others, or how you treat people. Internet or not, this speaks volumes about your character.
I'm nobody really and for that matter neither are you.
I know exactly who I am, and it's certainly far from being a "nobody" - how you choose to label yourself also speaks volumes.
This last is important: I've yet to see anyone who's deeply into the novel line draw a distinction (or rather, at least recognize) that had 4E not happened, a whole bunch of pre-4E novel characters probably wouldn' have been written about anyway.
It’s a cycle of more than twenty characters. You know that the authors will steadily provide enough material on enough of them to keep you immersed. That is unless they all die.
our examples of characters that are still around or ghostified are just as disconcerting. Jack Ravenwild was a character who was full of life with interesting allies. You take away the npcs in his life and age him 100 years and he is a different person.
The main issue I have with the spellplague and the time warp is that a setting is its NPCs. There is no such thing as an interesting setting without interesting people. The Breakfast Club or Glenngary Glen Ross are examples of how you need nothing but people.
Im giving reasons for why the novels might not be selling. Im actually more radical. Im in boycott denial. If I was running the Forgotten Realms the NPCs would have been celebrated with a fighting game that shipped with Kindle discounts on the novels. But no cant have that got to make the players the heroes.
Had to look up the word. Im not being pedantic. Im just being honest. I made a video about why I disliked the spellplague and didnt even cover it as well as I could have. I'm not even talking about why it was stupid. Im giving reason to why the novels might not be selling which has more to do with the timeline jump that killed the plots and characters.
I was asking Mr_Miscellany to stop being pedantic towards you. I felt that your post was clear and honest. I also agree with your perspective on the Spellplague/timejump. I'm sorry, I should have responded to him by name.
It was my mistake. I was sleep deprived and lacking of wit.
I did want to respond to your response about Star Trek. I looked it up and there are nearly twice as many FR novels than Star Trek even though its much younger. Also many of them are TV and Film adaptations. That says more about the nature of FR fans. I think you can guess what Im getting at even though its hard to articulate.
Well, first off I wasn't responding to Lord-Duck.
Good grief, I know that. You were responding to me, and I said so.Secondly, you are a very very sensitive person and I find it funny how upset you seem to be getting over my comments.
I hardly think that asking for basic civility is being "very very sensitive." Clearly, you don't care about others, or how you treat people. Internet or not, this speaks volumes about your character.I'm nobody really and for that matter neither are you.
I know exactly who I am, and it's certainly far from being a "nobody" - how you choose to label yourself also speaks volumes.
I think it's funny how you continue to respond to this. Just let it go dude, I have.
That's got to be worth trying something a little different, right? Whats a few bucks and a couple hours of my time?
First, they've just about cut off all fiction from everywhere outside the Realms - Eberron, Dark Sun, Nentir Vale. I can assume this is a sales-based decision.
Second, they started a trend of pushing sequels and then some new books to an e-book only format. While this cuts their risk significantly, it also had to affect sales significantly. They may have reached a point where this is no longer a viable strategy.
Third, they're using a "publish as you succeed" strategy now. In the past, they published a series of stand-alone novels OR a trilogy, usually followed by a short story collection. The number of books that would be published was set. Now, each book seems to get a sequel if the previous one succeeds. This is why you're seeing odd 2-book series (Unbroken Chain, Sword of the Gods), some series not end (Shadowbane) and others keep going (Richard Lee Byers Griffon Riders is heading into its 5th book I believe). I don't like this strategy because it forces authors to leave books somewhat open-ended and shoot for the sequel, but it is what it is. Again, it's cutting down risk.
That said (and many of you have already hit on what I say below), I think we're not seeing any new Realms fiction coming up for a few reasons:
First, it could be sales driven. If the above strategies haven't been successful, they're hedging their bets on their "big hitters" in the Sundering series - namely Salvatore, Greenwood, Kemp, and Byers. Troy Denning represents an "old school" author which pays tribute to the old fans who they want to woo back and Erin Evans is a good representation of "new blood" to pay tribute to the 4th ed. Realms fans. It's a bit of something for everyone. The Sundering series seems like a guaranteed string of hardcover best sellers, something they haven't had since War of the Spider Queen.
Second, the publishing arm of Wotc may have a fixed budget. Putting out six hardcovers by authors who are going to command more cash (half of them at least) costs more. So does printing, distributing, and marketing a huge hardcover series like this. They may have put all their budget eggs (and more) for the year into this Sundering basket, which honestly doesn't sound like a bad plan.
Third, they want this Sundering series to set the story and tone for D&D Next Realms. They don't know what that is until they have all six books in hand. Judging by at least 4 of the author's Facebook posts, they're all writing or have finished their Sundering novels. That means there's significant story planning going on here. They want to maintain a focus on this series and see where it leads them. They also want to see if it's a big success or not. They've been playing "small ball" with these e-book only stories, and this is a shot at the big leagues again. Now, I'd think you could do both, but again, they want to minimize risk at a very risky time for Wotc.
Novels aside, it puzzles me why they've completely removed fiction from Dungeon/Dragon lately. I think that would be a good place for shorter fiction and new authors and make my DDI subscription more worth while. I like the variety of big time and new authors that we've had in the Realms for years. I just don't know if they have the budget or the sales to make this a reality anymore.
They need to just write novels that look interesting, and I fear that there might a a little too much meddling by "higher-higher" so to speak. Rather than letting the authors tell the story they necessarily want to, management is telling the authors what story to tell, and letting the authors tell it. I imagine thats why some of our classic beloved authors like Elaine Cunningham (damn you for killing Fyodor!) have said "lololololol how bout no?" Of course, that's only an opinion...no facts or even rumors to back it up. Pure conjecture and speculation on my part.
Also, the e-books thing is a non starter. I dont care how good a book is written, if it has no pages for me to turn, crease, abuse, and love...I wont read it. That's a hard and fast line in the sand. Plenty of other publishers are giving me paper books to fill my shelves and take my money. If WotC wants their slice of my wallet, they need to step up their game.
As for Pathfinder, I've personally never played the game system nor have I read any of the novels in the setting. But I always see people over at Candlekeep praising it. So that's pure suposition on my part.
Now, onto the eBooks. I'm not going to try and convince you of their virtues....and they have plenty. But what I will say is that print media is dead and the future is in eMedia. The cheaper eReaders get the more publishers will move away from print. There is no going back. So the paper book that you love so much is going to be relegated to niche status fairly quickly over the next few years. I mean, eBooks have already surpased print in annual sales.
mashable.com/2012/06/17/ebook-hardcover-...
So you can't blame WoTC for shifting towards an eBook dominant publishing strategy. And in theory this should be saving them money and allowing them to publish more novels...or at least continuing to publish novels. But I still see people try to argue that eBooks don't save them that much money...which I think is hogwash.
So I applaud your dedication to print. I don't want to see it ever go away nor do I think it wil, even though I'll never purchase a print book ever again. With Print -on-Demand there will always be someone printing a novel. But you will find it harder and harder to find what you want to read in print.
How about a compilation of (very) short stories by notable (and not so notable) Realms authors, featuring all new characters?
Let the fans vote with their wallet and their online commentary and then publish more (and larger) stories featuring that character.
In terms of story size, it's like going from a comic book to a graphic novel to a novel, without the pictures.
Make it like the "Realms of" books and put it in e-book form.
So, spam us with stories WotC and encourage us to tell you what we think.
I'd love to read a bunch of really short stories centerd around wizards in the employ of nations and city states: Cowled Wizards, Order of Magists and Protectors wizards, Wizards of War and Red Wizards (amongst others).
When the ship is sinking, everyone needs to focus on saving that ship.
Or find a new ship
if we all sit in our corners hoping each of our demands are met then we all go down with that ship. So stop being stubborn about the timeline, stop being resistant to authors who aren't your favorites, and give up this silly notion that paper novels will ever be dominant again.
Sorry, but no. I like the Realms because I like how they currently are and if the ever become something I no longer like I will just stop following them and use my free time for something else.
The Realms a a cherished part of my entertainment, but that's all they are. They are not a life mission I have to support no matter what. That's ridiculous.
Wasting time and money on something you don't enjoy just to enable it to continue to exist (likely in the way you don't enjoy) serves no purpose at all. Do something else with your time and money.
and then sacrifices his life for a deity that wasn't so much of a deity but a servitor-Exarch (or something equally minor) to Oghma.
But that was always Deneir's job, even pre-4e. He even had it as his title ("The Scribe of Oghma"). He was a lesser deity in service to a greater deity.
Sorry, but no. I like the Realms because I like how they currently are and if the ever become something I no longer like I will just stop following them and use my free time for something else.The Realms a a cherished part of my entertainment, but that's all they are. They are not a life mission I have to support no matter what. That's ridiculous.
Wasting time and money on something you don't enjoy just to enable it to continue to exist (likely in the way you don't enjoy) serves no purpose at all. Do something else with your time and money.
I really think this comes down to expectations. I see a lot of people have very large expectations on what they want the Realms to be or not to be for that matter. I come at this as a person who enjoys Realms fiction because it is set in the Realms. The only expectation I have is that the writing be well done...this is objective of course. Sometimes I do get a novel that I don't enjoy. the Rose of Sarifal is one of them. I stopped reading it and moved onto something else. But just because I had a bad experience with that book doesn't mean I'm going to stop buying novels because there might be a chance that I'll get a bad one.
I'm not saying those like you are wrong in your unwillingess to show support to a Realms that you don't like. I was hoping to inspire people to say "well hey, let me give the Realms one more chance". Because WoTC has certainly shown some willingness to admit that they were wrong and a desire to try and fix things. But if some people are going to sit on the sidelines with a wait and see attitude, then there's a chance the Realms might not make it.....at least as a novel line.
Gods but I wish they'd just divorce the novels from canon and be done with it...
I'm saying, at this point, I don't really care if they stop publishing them or not. I haven't been reading them anyways, so no big deal to me either way. I guess that's about as clear as I can be.
As far as I’m concerned, I’m done with FR. I start reading FR novels before I started playing DnD. I’ve bough many of them over 20 years and while I dislike some, I felt that they all added something to the settings.
The Spellplague and the 100 years jump remove all the love I had for that settings. It’s like they added this line at the end of all my books : "And then they all die and all their efforts was for nothing". I don’t hate WOTC for doing that, hate is a strong word and I reserve my hatred for the people who will hurt my friends and family. They own the settings and are free to do whatever they want with it but, I, on the other hand, am free to boycott them. I will continue to collect the old novel that were release before 4th edition and will still run my campaigns using my 3rd FR sourcebook that I love but that's it. Over the years, I gave WOTC hundreds of dollards for FR materials but no more.
Also, I disagree with the Star Trek comparaison. When The Next Generation debuted, the old show have been over for 20 years. Movies were still coming up but everyone know that, sooner or later, the actors would stop playing their roles. So the new series was a needed fresh start, it was that or Star Trek would have simply disappear. FR, on the other hand, was still going strong when the Spellplague happen. And beside, FR isn’t just about one party of adventurers like Star Trek was in the 60's.
Eh, I dont think think he's really saying love it or leave it. I think that he's saying that if people don't start buying more novels, WotC will stop publishing them. Given his love of realms fiction, he's certainly welcome to blame people who arent buying, because...there is truth there. WotC will not stop publishing if the novels are moving off the shelves. That's pretty much an undeniable fact. They want the Benjamins. If people aren't buying though, ie, the novels are not profitable, they will not continue to publish them.
I'm saying, at this point, I don't really care if they stop publishing them or not. I haven't been reading them anyways, so no big deal to me either way. I guess that's about as clear as I can be.
Thanks Crazyhawk, that does sum up how I feel. of course I would never tell anyone that they HAD to buy the material or else. But those are the facts. And do I resent the hell out of people who turned their backs on the setting? Damn right I do. But that's everyone's choice. I lost Battletech and now I might lose the Realms. I appreciate the honesty about not caring. But I wish more people did care and were a little more open about the Realms.
Eh, I dont think think he's really saying love it or leave it. I think that he's saying that if people don't start buying more novels, WotC will stop publishing them. Given his love of realms fiction, he's certainly welcome to blame people who arent buying, because...there is truth there. WotC will not stop publishing if the novels are moving off the shelves. That's pretty much an undeniable fact. They want the Benjamins. If people aren't buying though, ie, the novels are not profitable, they will not continue to publish them.
I'm saying, at this point, I don't really care if they stop publishing them or not. I haven't been reading them anyways, so no big deal to me either way. I guess that's about as clear as I can be.
Thanks Crazyhawk, that does sum up how I feel. of course I would never tell anyone that they HAD to buy the material or else. But those are the facts. And do I resent the hell out of people who turned their backs on the setting? Damn right I do. But that's everyone's choice. I lost Battletech and now I might lose the Realms. I appreciate the honesty about not caring. But I wish more people did care and were a little more open about the Realms.
It’s not me that turn his back on the Realms, it’s the Realms that turn it’s back on me. I like the Realms because it was a huge lands where stories didn’t always connect to each others because they weren’t world-shattering event. Now it’s a post-apocalyptic world that look nothing like the setting I’ve play in for so many years.
Eh, I dont think think he's really saying love it or leave it. I think that he's saying that if people don't start buying more novels, WotC will stop publishing them. Given his love of realms fiction, he's certainly welcome to blame people who arent buying, because...there is truth there. WotC will not stop publishing if the novels are moving off the shelves. That's pretty much an undeniable fact. They want the Benjamins. If people aren't buying though, ie, the novels are not profitable, they will not continue to publish them.
I'm saying, at this point, I don't really care if they stop publishing them or not. I haven't been reading them anyways, so no big deal to me either way. I guess that's about as clear as I can be.
Thanks Crazyhawk, that does sum up how I feel. of course I would never tell anyone that they HAD to buy the material or else. But those are the facts. And do I resent the hell out of people who turned their backs on the setting? Damn right I do. But that's everyone's choice. I lost Battletech and now I might lose the Realms. I appreciate the honesty about not caring. But I wish more people did care and were a little more open about the Realms.It’s not me that turn his back on the Realms, it’s the Realms that turn it’s back on me. I like the Realms because it was a huge lands where stories didn’t always connect to each others because they weren’t world-shattering event. Now it’s a post-apocalyptic world that look nothing like the setting I’ve play in for so many years.
Sorry, I don't buy this argument at all....not one bit. WoTC isn't around to please you personally. The designers are paid to create a narrative that is hopefully interesting to enough people that they will support it. They have no collective awareness of who you are or what your ultimate vision for the Realms is. So they didn't make any conscious decisions to "turn their backs on you". You are the one who decided that you didn't like what was being made. So yes, you did turn your back on the setting. But, again, that is fine. You have a right to feel that way. You can't make someone buy something that they don't like...unless your Apple. But I also have the right to my personal opinion that I feel that some of you are far too hard on the setting and it's designers.
The reason I like the Realms is because it's huge and there is a lot going on and there is a very rich and deep history. The opportunity is there for any type of story you can imagine in any time period. Just because they went hog wild on the RSE's for a while doesn't mean that is the direction that they will always take. The opportunity is there for them to ALWAYS change direction and do something different with the narrative if something isn't working. Which is what they are doing with the Sundering. So story wise the Realms is never lost. That is unless people just start ignoring it and it dies due to lack of interest.
That is what I am trying to do here. I'm not trying to insult everyone just to be a jerk. I'm trying to find some way to get more people to raise their voice in support of the Realms rather than bashing it and just walking away. I'd like to see some of you who say that they are done with the Realms to give it another look. Let's see if WoTC makes good on their promise to listen to us. We all know that this setting is beg enough to handle a lot of different narratives. So maybe we can convince them of that fact.
And FYI, the Realms practically started off with an RSE. The first Time of Troubles novel was published in 1989. A mere 2 years after the Old Grey Box was published. So RSE's have been a fact of the Realms since close to the beginning.
Gods but I wish they'd just divorce the novels from canon and be done with it...
I really hope not. Not only would that be the thing that would drive me away from FR novels (I can read glorified fanfiction for free, thank you!), IMHO the novels being canon is why they are selling so much better than the Eberron novels
The only place canon really matters is in the novels because that is where the narrative is being told by WoTC and the authors. They need to stay on the same page or else it gets confusing and unappealing. But the DMs of the world can do what ever they want and it will never affect another DM's campaign.
Maybe WoTC needs to change how they approach the way they publish source material.
To my way of thinking, they'd be better off committing to one approach or the other. Either the novels matter, or they don't. Not that I have any issues with the novels having their own canon, I just wish they'd divorce it from the gaming setting itself, or at least treating it much more abstractly the way the approached it in 2e (as in generic adventurers accomplishing these things, rather than the more specific Company of the XYZ, and all that implies), which I think encouraged DMs to believe that they were free to change the details as they saw fit. Not that they can't anyway, but some folks just have the hardest time getting that through to their brains, as these forums have demonstrated so many times to me.
As to who turned whose back upon whom, it doesn't really matter where you assign the blame, it's ultimately an emotional response, and no one is responsible when it comes down to it. Anything else is just an exercise in linguistic exactitude and semantics.
Eh, I dont think think he's really saying love it or leave it. I think that he's saying that if people don't start buying more novels, WotC will stop publishing them. Given his love of realms fiction, he's certainly welcome to blame people who arent buying, because...there is truth there. WotC will not stop publishing if the novels are moving off the shelves. That's pretty much an undeniable fact. They want the Benjamins. If people aren't buying though, ie, the novels are not profitable, they will not continue to publish them.
I'm saying, at this point, I don't really care if they stop publishing them or not. I haven't been reading them anyways, so no big deal to me either way. I guess that's about as clear as I can be.
Thanks Crazyhawk, that does sum up how I feel. of course I would never tell anyone that they HAD to buy the material or else. But those are the facts. And do I resent the hell out of people who turned their backs on the setting? Damn right I do. But that's everyone's choice. I lost Battletech and now I might lose the Realms. I appreciate the honesty about not caring. But I wish more people did care and were a little more open about the Realms.It’s not me that turn his back on the Realms, it’s the Realms that turn it’s back on me. I like the Realms because it was a huge lands where stories didn’t always connect to each others because they weren’t world-shattering event. Now it’s a post-apocalyptic world that look nothing like the setting I’ve play in for so many years.
Sorry, I don't buy this argument at all....not one bit. WoTC isn't around to please you personally. The designers are paid to create a narrative that is hopefully interesting to enough people that they will support it. They have no collective awareness of who you are or what your ultimate vision for the Realms is. So they didn't make any conscious decisions to "turn their backs on you". You are the one who decided that you didn't like what was being made. So yes, you did turn your back on the setting. But, again, that is fine. You have a right to feel that way. You can't make someone buy something that they don't like...unless your Apple. But I also have the right to my personal opinion that I feel that some of you are far too hard on the setting and it's designers.
The reason I like the Realms is because it's huge and there is a lot going on and there is a very rich and deep history. The opportunity is there for any type of story you can imagine in any time period. Just because they went hog wild on the RSE's for a while doesn't mean that is the direction that they will always take. The opportunity is there for them to ALWAYS change direction and do something different with the narrative if something isn't working. Which is what they are doing with the Sundering. So story wise the Realms is never lost. That is unless people just start ignoring it and it dies due to lack of interest.
That is what I am trying to do here. I'm not trying to insult everyone just to be a jerk. I'm trying to find some way to get more people to raise their voice in support of the Realms rather than bashing it and just walking away. I'd like to see some of you who say that they are done with the Realms to give it another look. Let's see if WoTC makes good on their promise to listen to us. We all know that this setting is beg enough to handle a lot of different narratives. So maybe we can convince them of that fact.
And FYI, the Realms practically started off with an RSE. The first Time of Troubles novel was published in 1989. A mere 2 years after the Old Grey Box was published. So RSE's have been a fact of the Realms since close to the beginning.
Of course WOTC don't have to please me personally. Like I said in my first post, they own the setting, they can do anything they want with it. But I didn't stop buying FR novel because I didn't like the last few that I read, I stop because they now are set in a dak post-apocalyptic world which I don't like.
The Time of Trouble was certainly a big event but, in the end, it doesn't compare to the Spellplague. When it was over, the Realms was still recognizable, most of the gods were there, there wasn't a big purge of all the famous heroes and the various kingdoms were still intact.
The Time of Trouble was certainly a big event but, in the end, it doesn't compare to the Spellplague.
If the internet had existed then as it does now, you better believe the reaction would have been fierce and loud. There's a reason 3E didn't use a ToT-style event to herald its changes to the Realms.
That said, the Spellplague was bigger, but I think in terms of the damage footprint. Looking at the (4E) map, you can tell something happened.
For some people, that's enough not to play in the setting (and understandably so).
When it was over, the Realms was still recognizable, most of the gods were there, there wasn't a big purge of all the famous heroes and the various kingdoms were still intact.
I see you left out the list of dead deities. That, for many people, left a Realms not as recognizable as it once was, but they kept on playing and reading.
A century after the Spellplague, the Realms is not a post-apocalyptic setting. Except for those areas that were removed and/or replaced wholesale, pretty much every kingdom or nation left behind is still intact and chugging right along.
Commerce and trade are lively, the deities are being worshipped and magic is used readily. The only thing you can reliably say is that nations, city states and so on have changed because a century has passed (and not because the Spellplague happened).
Speaking of, the Spellplague is all but forgotten in the Realms, save by those who use it as an excuse to scare and terrify and manipulate (such as certain of Cormyr's nobles, if recent novels are any indication).
It's actually quite remarkable that the Realms got by with so little alteration after the Time of Troubles (it's earthquake cuasing, reality-warping and wild magic spewing self miraculously leaving the Realms virtually untouched from a map perspective), yet it still saw the loss of deities, killed or drove mad mages and NPCs by the thousands and created plenty of wild magic areas (and heralded in rules changes), much like the Spellplague.
For those who still insist on keeping score: the Spellplague didn't kill many of Cormyr's NPCs, Nalavarra the Devil Dragon and her Ghazneth and goblin minions accomplished that feat on their own. Technically, you could toss Volo's Guide to Cormyr out the window after the Denning and Greenwood books got done mangling Cormyr.
But a lot of people (like me) didn't, because that book is just too good to pass up or not make use of.
And that's really the point. Though Caolin is coming from a novels-only perspective, I think there's merit in looking at the Realms as "too good to pass up" in its entirety.
Yes there are plenty of warts and scars (aka the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide and accompanying map, which introduced all the hard changes), but once you get past that and see what that book has to offer, as well as try out some of the new novels or Dragon/Dungeon supplements, there's good Realmslore and good story to be had.
I think I see where you're coming from, Tonyberr81.I just think the post-Spellplague Realms isn't as bad off or radically changed as you do.
In 3/3.5 Realms, I liked the publishing model. Basically, authors got a chance at a short story, then a one-off novel, and then a trilogy. Yes, some authors skipped one or two of these steps, but you saw this pattern. Wizards let feedback and the success of the book drive (to some extent) who published, and short fiction was a big part of this. I think short fiction also fills in the cracks of the Realms, a setting that is, after all, as much about the small stories and the details as it is about the larger-than-life characters and Realms Shaking Events.
As far as making the fiction not part of the canon, I've always been against that. I've actually championed the opposite - tying the fiction in more with the product. Put out adventures that have accompanying novels - that kind of thing.
Sorry, I don't buy this argument at all....not one bit.
You misunderstand. It's his (or her?) personal reason, and an explanation. It's not for you to "buy into" or even agree with.
WoTC isn't around to please you personally.
You are mistaken. If they want someone to buy something, then they need to please that individual customer. The hope, of course, is that their product has wide, mass appeal. If not, a product line will fail. This is basic to business.
They have no collective awareness of who you are or what your ultimate vision for the Realms is. So they didn't make any conscious decisions to "turn their backs on you".
The designers -always- made decisions based on what they think will sell. In this case, the designers at the time decided to make massive changes to the overall setting. They knew from product testing, surveys, and other research, that 3.5 had a lot of issues that needed some change and that their overall customer base was shifting from an older set to a younger set.
They made a decision, with something of a gamble, to go for a re-design and match-up with the game rules at the time. Had it been extremely popular in sales, it would have been considered a wise, good decision. Considering that they are now deciding to minimize all those changes, sales must not have met a base minimum company need.
Whatever you think, the real story is that the decisions made were intentional and made with full awareness of possible loss of customers.
You are the one who decided that you didn't like what was being made. So yes, you did turn your back on the setting.
Although the purchase decision was the customer's to make, their decision had 100% to do with the radical change in the product. I can't speak personally for the person you were replying to, but for myself - and I know many people who feel as I do - we were loyal customers through the first three editions DESPITE many changes we didn't fully appreciate. The radical change in tone and overall campaign feel is what changed our minds.
Furthermore, by stating his (or her?) opinion online, this is clearly an indication that the customer(s) did not turn their backs on the setting. They're posting, so there is still some level of investment there. They want WotC to know what they WILL buy, not just what they won't buy.
You have a right to feel that way. You can't make someone buy something that they don't like...unless your Apple.
News flash, people buy Apple because they like Apple. However, you're right that it IS our choice to vote with our wallets when we dislike something.
But I also have the right to my personal opinion that I feel that some of you are far too hard on the setting and it's designers.
You have the right to any personal opinion you'd like to express. But you cross the line when you reinterpret others' reasons. People say what they mean. Constantly trying to reinterpret others' expressed opinions into what you think are the supposedly "real" reasons is beyond rude.
And FYI, the Realms practically started off with an RSE. The first Time of Troubles novel was published in 1989. A mere 2 years after the Old Grey Box was published. So RSE's have been a fact of the Realms since close to the beginning.
The Time of Troubles (ToT) was, for the most part, something that could be totally and completely ignored. I disliked Cyric, Midnight and Kelemvor and never used anything from the ToT story in my games. Many others I know never had a ToT in their home campaigns. After a while though, WotC started using the gods more and more as character-protagonists in novels AND the game material and the ToT became harder and harder to reconcile with many home campaigns. The culmination of course was the massive overuse of Mystra as a novel character and the focus on her Chosen champions. Then instead of minimizing these problems, WotC chose to expand on them by focusing on Shar and Cyric for a while.
Yes, there have been many RSEs, but they have become progressively larger and harder to ignore if you want to run anything remotely close to a "living" Realms. The 'plague-jump was the final straw for many of us, after years of trying to tell WotC to JUST BLOODY STOP with the RSEs. Instead, they applied the most massive RSE to date, and this upcoming fix - well, I'm not certain how yet another massive cataclysm/RSE is really going to fix these problems. It gets to the point where you wonder if they are listening at all, when you look at things like Neverwinter, where the 'plague-jump wasn't enough of a cataclysm and they had to have the volcano explode all over Neverwinter also.
Honestly, I'm afraid that this upcoming new cataclysm really will be the final coup de grâce and kill the setting once and for all.
A century after the Spellplague, the Realms is not a post-apocalyptic setting.
You seem to forget - at launch, it absolutely was intended to be a post-apocalypse setting. The designers at the time found out very quickly that the changes were not as popular as they had hoped. They scrambled at WotC to do some minimization even way back then, which is why a number of articles came out -after- the initial previews that basically said, "oh hey, wait wait wait, don't take the spellplague so seriously, it's not that bad now. Don't take the text so literally."
But before they got that response, the previews showed that it was absolutely intended to have that post-apocalyse "Yes album" tone and feel.
Interesting that those preview articles are no longer available, isn't it?
You seem to forget - at launch, it absolutely was intended to be a post-apocalypse setting.
I’m left wondering where (or rather, who) you’re getting your information from?
I sat in on the Realms seminar at GenCon 2007 that introduced the Spellplague concept and the century jump. I don’t recall the primary presenters (Richard Baker and Ed Greenwood) ever emphasizing that WotC was going to release a post-apocalyptic setting that was wrecked to the core and looking for heroic characters to save the day. Granted this was about six years ago, but I’m pretty sure the word “post-apocalyptic” wasn’t even used. “Change” was used a lot, as in “the Realms must change” (per Ed Greenwood).
Maybe that colored my impression of things going forward, but I don’t think the web articles following GenCon strayed from the message presented at the Con.
Or who knows? Maybe you and I have wildly divergent definitions of what “post-apocalyptic” means.
The designers at the time found out very quickly that the changes were not as popular as they had hoped. They scrambled at WotC to do some minimization even way back then, which is why a number of articles came out -after- the initial previews that basically said, "oh hey, wait wait wait, don't take the spellplague so seriously, it's not that bad now. Don't take the text so literally."
The later web articles you’re referring to were released because WotC saw that people were developing the impression that the Realms would be post-apocalyptic.
This impression formed because (as WotC figured out) the preview articles were spending too much time talking about what the Spellplague event was as opposed to what the Realms is a century after that event.
Yes, you are correct that WotC perceived a negative online reaction to the Spellplague, but it simply wasn’t the case that WotC was operating from an initial position that they were going to create a wrecked world.
Interesting that those preview articles are no longer available, isn't it?
You mean like this article?
There’s no conspiracy here.
I’m left wondering where (or rather, who) you’re getting your information from?
Baker, Cordell, etc. in their 1/2008 articles that used to be available online.
The later web articles you’re referring to were released because WotC saw that people were developing the impression that the Realms would be post-apocalyptic.
(snip)
This impression formed because (as WotC figured out) the preview articles were spending too much time talking about what the Spellplague event was as opposed to what the Realms is a century after that event.
Yes, you are correct that WotC perceived a negative online reaction to the Spellplague, but it simply wasn’t the case that WotC was operating from an initial position that they were going to create a wrecked world.
(snip)You mean like this article?
There’s no conspiracy here.
The article you're linking is from 8/2008, at the point the design team realized how unpopular the changes were - and they were trying at that point to minimize things even then.
I'm talking specifically about articles around 1/2008 like the Countdown articles and other responses online from staffers like Baker. I recall very clearly Baker (on the forums) saying how much the design team wanted to make things even worse, that we had no idea how many battles he fought to save certain things.
If they had wanted it to have the atmosphere of a land that had gone through a cataclysm and had been in recovery for those 94-ish years, they would have led strongly with that. Instead, the early previews were nothing BUT the cataclysm. Honestly, what "impression" were people supposed to have?
And I'm not saying there was a "conspiracy" - rather, I'm saying that there was a big effort to manage peoples' impressions after the damage was done and it was clear how unpopular the changes were. I think the designers at the time (most of them) were probably surprised by the negative reaction.
Baker, Cordell, etc. in their 1/2008 articles that used to be available online.
Try as I might, I haven't been able to find them, even on the internet wayback machine.
Does it follow, then, that there was some sort of reactionary coverup (if that's the right word)? I don't think so.
Between the Gleemax crash and the forum reorg, lots of things got lost and moved around. I'll keep searching because I want to re-read those articles and see just how rose colored my glasses are.
I recall very clearly Baker (on the forums) saying how much the design team wanted to make things even worse, that we had no idea how many battles he fought to save certain things.
The Realms design team has fought similar battles in the past. There's a reason that only Tilverton went BOOM when the Shadovar showed up. Initially, the novels side wanted to do a lot worse to the Realms to herald the Shade's arrival, but they were out voted.
Regardless, if the 4E Realms had been altered more significantly, there's still the century of time in between those changes and the later presentation in the FRCG.
I can see how Baker’s comments, taken with the web articles, could leave an impression in a reader's mind that things were all bad and we were going to get a radically altered Realms.
If they had wanted it to have the atmosphere of a land that had gone through a cataclysm and had been in recovery for those 94-ish years, they would have led strongly with that.
So it's impossible for WotC to make mistakes in marketing in message?
I didn't realize you had such faith in them.
Facetiousness aside, to me it made perfect sense that WotC would go out of its way to talk about what the Spellplague was because for the eight years prior everyone and their mother with a gripe about Canon Realmslore complained to high heaven on this and other forum spaces about why this or that (3rd Edition) change wasn't described, in triplicate, in-setting.
They tried to do right by the fanbase by explaining the Spellplague, they just didn't turn the corner fast enough and ended up generating a lot of angst instead of interest (at least online).
I know that I remember seeing the "Points of Light" setting bandied about at the start of 4E. I think that there was the thought that this would be the state of the new Realms.
You know, you just gave me the spark of memory. I recall asking Rich Baker about the Realms being a Points of Light setting, to which he replied that it wasn't PoL.
I can't remember if I asked that before or after the FRCG was released.
You know, you just gave me the spark of memory. I recall asking Rich Baker about the Realms being a Points of Light setting, to which he replied that it wasn't PoL.
I can't remember if I asked that before or after the FRCG was released.
Doesn't really matter - the new Neverwinter campaign guide definitely has a strong Points of Light feel to it, just like the new Salvatore Neverwinter novel trilogy with Drizzt. Pretty much PoL by definition, reading those. It's all completely "shades of gray" and "you're the only heroes on the block" stuff, in spades. Drizzt even has interactions with common farmers, showing that no one trusts their neighbors anymore and tons of backstabbing and theft is happening just among the common people. If that isn't the tone of the Dark Ages, aka PoL, I'm not sure what they could do to make things darker or more PoL.
Of course R.A. Salvatore--popular as he is--doesn't set the tone for the rest of the Realms. To me the full (4E) setting just isn't post-Apocalyptic or properly PoL. There are certainly areas that are more isolated (and thus closer to PoL) then others, but having read the numerous Realms articles in Dragon and Dungeon, as well as some of the novels, overall the Realms is still the Realms: a place that's busy interacting and trading with itself.
I realize not everyone feels this way, but that's OK.
However, I am repeating myself, so it's time to bow out of the part of the thread.
There never used to be a plot, or a theme to the realms.
Well, I haven't read every single book that was released since 2008, as they all haven't been available at my library to borrow. But I have read these:
Neverwinter series = definitely PoL.
Brotherhood of the Griffon series = definitely PoL.
Brimstone Angels (two novels so far) = definitely PoL.
The current Elminster series = definitely PoL.
Gilded Rune = definitely PoL.
Haunted Lands series = definitely PoL.
Even adventure-wise:
Rise of the Underdark = definitely PoL.
Neverwinter Campaign Guide = definitely PoL.
Neverwinter series = definitely PoL.
Brotherhood of the Griffon series = definitely PoL.
Brimstone Angels (two novels so far) = definitely PoL.
The current Elminster series = definitely PoL.
Gilded Rune = definitely PoL.
Haunted Lands series = definitely PoL.
I haven read Neverwinter and the latest Elminsters, but the others are definately not PoL.
PoL is scattered communities as separated PoLs in the darkness.
BotG took place in a couple of countries waging war upon each other. Fully functional countries and not just some collections of PoLs.
Brimstone angels took place in a city (first one) and in a forgotten underground cave. While the city certainly has seen better places, it's not enough to paint a PoL picture. And the second one shows that the cities are still well connected (portals from Waterdeep to Cormyr to be purchased, before that the heroes easily travelled from Neverwinter to Waterdeep) and since the rest just takes part in a forgotten cave it doesn't really tell anything.
Gilded Rune has a city under quarantine due to plague. But the quarantine had to be imposed to keep frequent caravans and traders away. So the city was everything but a lonely PoL cut off form the others, it was a trade hub.
Haunted Lands is half pre-spellplague and the other half is invading Thay. Well, Thay is not the nicest of places.
BTW- the portal in Brimstone Angels (only one mentioned, btw) between Waterdeep and Cormyr, was extremely expensive and meant to cut down on months of travel - the fairly high level adventurers couldn't afford to send more than two people, and even then it was one way; it's not like it was a super-saver airline thing that everyday commoners could use regularly.
I think it also gives us an idea that if you have invested twenty plus years reading, writing, and adventuring in the Realms that something happened with the Spellplague that was larger than the general fictional world (Real World Economics).
It had it's impact and I think by having the authors, "Sundering Six", working together. We maybe guaranteed to get back some of the quality we had before in the Realms.
Reading Greenwood's, "Forging the Realms" articles makes me feel like things are getting set back in order. At least giving the feel of the Realms, I grew to love reading and adventuring in.
I also have to say I took a year off of DMing in the Realms (I stuck around Forums though and read or own 85 to 90% of Novels released) but naturally I have come back to gaming in the Realms and deliver the Realms as before with something different here or there, whether all the maps suffered extreme distortion and many of the gods were killed. I have maps from all the earlier editions along with a fine collection of material surviving each company or edition brand that are still very useful.
I must add the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas a great tool and I like the idea of Articles in Dragon containing excerpts, essays, or short stories like the magazine we use to hold in our hands to read which is also a sign of the economic times which extends beyond the lore of the Realms and will probably be some notation in the history of fantasy literature when we are all dust and bones.
Novels, by their nature, change the individual characters in them.
What's the difference?
As a reader, it's extremely disheartening to read. I expected Drizzt to change and grow, but reading the current novels are depressing and he has ultimately regressed. RAS is an excellent author, so I am still reading them and liking them well enough to continue, but the charm of the other companions and Drizzt's nobility almost seem to be parodied. Was it all worth it, if Drizzt has to live in this dark new world? What's different about his experience in Menzoberranzan compared to his life in the post-cataclysm, post-volcano Neverwinter? It's killing, more killing, revenge, mourning the old days, missing his old noble companions, and then more killing. And apparently, Drizzt has had this same sad mood for the past 100 years.
Sure, it's still somewhat entertaining, but it's depressing to wade through and slowly killing my interest.
What is Drizzt without the Companions of the Hall? What would Arilyn be without her Danilo? What is Liriel without Fyodor? And yes, I know what happened to Fyodor at the end; frankly, I think it's a good thing we never got to see Liriel wandering around constantly depressed and mourning Fyodor like Drizzt has mourned the Companions.*
It's never just about the one that survivies when it comes to cataclysmic events. By the way, I do think Fyodor's end was poignant, important for the story, and necessary for Liriel's development, but that loss was an entirely different kind of thing and made Liriel grow.
Let's consider Cadderly's end story. For most of his life, Cadderly was a principled, cool guy serving a deity that had a noble purpose. At the end, Cadderly becomes someone who tortures demons (or was it a devil? but even so, torture? come on!) and then sacrifices his life for a deity that wasn't so much of a deity but a servitor-Exarch (or something equally minor) to Oghma. Thanks for reinforcing the concept, WotC, that some deities weren't what we - or even their priests - thought they were. And then, in a final and mostly meaningless gesture, Cadderly sacrifices his life for - for what, exactly? To somehow bolster something "metatexty" but extremely nebulous in one of the divine planes? Honestly, for a sacrifice to have any meaning, you have to see SOME effect in the world. We got nothing, really.* having said this, I do think Cunningham could do an excellent follow-up on Liriel, but she'd have to introduce some new support characters.
I am actually at the opposite end of the spectrum. I am enjoying Daliah's character for the most part. I certainly don't hold her past actions with Effron against her. There is a key difference between the Drizzt of Homeland and the Drizzt of the Neverwinter Saga: Homeland's Drizzt strove to validate the drow perspective, and abstain from violence against his people. You'll recall he failed in this regard in...either The Legacy or Starless Night. Back to the main point; in the Neverwinter Saga, Drizzt is using violence to run from his loss. Drizzt doesn't want to move on; he wants to try to evoke the good old days of battling goblins and highwaymen in Icewind Dale with the Companions.
Cadderly's sacrifice kept the Ghost King bound, I believe at the ruins of the Edificant Library. Considering how badly the Ghost King ravaged Cadderly's lands and peoples, I'd say the sacrifice had plenty of meaning. Providing an out to some divine problem was just a side bonus.
(snip) There never used to be a plot, or a theme to the realms.
I would argue that novels have driven the Realms for most of its history, beginning with the Time of Troubles. And that's always been a source of tension for FR fans.
(snip) There never used to be a plot, or a theme to the realms.
I would argue that novels have driven the Realms for most of its history, beginning with the Time of Troubles. And that's always been a source of tension for FR fans.
...and joy!
(snip) There never used to be a plot, or a theme to the realms.
I would argue that novels have driven the Realms for most of its history, beginning with the Time of Troubles. And that's always been a source of tension for FR fans.
...and joy!
Yeah... as long as stuff doesn't get exploded because reasons.