But who can fill the boots of evil christianity in a fantasy setting? Any suggestions? I was thinking about the warmonger Bane or the insane Cyric Prince of lies. But perhaps there is something more fitting? Below is a very short and direct description of history and partially Bane would fit, but not entirely. Some suggestions would be nice.
History exempt:
Druids and shamans were practically one and the same. They were just names of practices which included nature and spirit work in old times. Druids were like the main branch and underneath it you had the bards and ovates. christianity came and thought to show these "primitives" what to do or be killed. Druids had to forfeit their entire way of life. Bards and ovates could integrate into christianity if they promised only to devote their stories and songs to be about christ.
Many refused and were killed, but some managed to escape and get away. Hidden from christianity they still did their practices. "free" bards sang songs, poems and stories using phonetic resemblance to the name druid. 200 years later the druids basically changed their names and suddenly there were Magi roaming the lands. Many Mages (=wise men) who were neutral and didn't choose sides between countries and groups. They made great advisors, mystic healers, philosophers etc.
Or you could go for the really blatant historical allegory and choose Ilmater. ;)
-Being who is is, and what he represents, Silvanus does not come into much conflict with Bane and Cyric, outside of pure alignment differences, or being allies of enemies of Bane and Cyric.
IMO, it would be more interesting to pick a non-evil deity, but obviously one whose followers often stray into 'well-intentioned extremist' territory. So I'd say Amaunator or Torm.
Or you could go for the really blatant historical allegory and choose Ilmater. ;)
I like this idea, go with a Good or Nutral that has diffrent views. If you want to mirror what really happend.
His temples take the form of mighty citadels, their
imposing architecture a symbol of Torm’s earnest
stability in the face of chaos. From these edifices,
Tormish priests and paladins are sent out into the
world to root out corruption in any form, often imposing
their own sets of laws and procedures on nations
they feel are too open to lawlessness.
-Seeing how druids are rather lawless and have a different view of natural order. I suppose it could work. There is a paladin of Torm in the party and would provide interesting role play possibilities.
Ilmatar
Name Alignment Gender Sphere Dominion Priests Adjective
Ilmater Good male Suffering Celestia painbearers Ilmatari
Any more info available on this one?
Amaunator fits better, a solar deity, a tyrant in its previous incarnation, the church has a great potential for corruption (power brokers, politicians, bureaucrats, dedicated to imposing their law and not allowing any other).
Druids aren't lawless, it's just that their law (or balance) doesn't fit with the other law.
Of course, it works much better with a lawful church, one that's not so flexible and slower to adapt to an unfamiliar situation. It's also better with one that's possibly associated with temporal power, for which conversion is an important task, and where the clerics are likely to move with the settlers into an new area.
My first pick would be Bane. As the god of tyranny and oppression, coverting other people (by will or by force) comes naturally to his priests. The worship of any other deity in a land controlled by the church of Bane (and perhaps the Zhentarim if just before the spellplague) might very well be considered a heresy and cause for imprisonment, or worse.
Of course, you might want to try a non-evil deity to bring some shades of gray in that conflict. Ilmaterites are usually very compassionate, and Torm is mostly a military god, but as the god of justice. Clerics of Siamorphe would stay where the nobles are: nowehere near a newfound colony.
Tyr would certainly have clerics accompany any group of settlers coming from a land where Tyr's worship is important. Those clerics would see that laws are uphholded even in that far-off colony, that contracts are filled properly, and so on. Savaged who want to deal with civilized folk would have to do so according to Tyr's law: it's the only way to make sure they're not trying to swindle or steal anyone. That druid wants to set up a shop in town to sell his herbs? Sure, but he'll have to get a permit and sign all the appropriate documents in front of a cleric of Tyr.
After the spellplague, you can do the same with Bahamut (who's replaced Tyr as the god of justice) or, even better, Amaunator, the god of the sun, order, and bureaucracy. We will have none of those heathens' shady business. None shall work his trade openly except under the light of Amaunator.
The druids were hunted down and all but eradicated by Rome during the occupation of Britain, in fact they were so brutally destroyed that they vanish from the written record by the 2nd century (when Christianity itself was still being suppressed by Rome as well, and in fact its practice was illegal in the empire till the year 313).
Wait, never mind, that wasn't the topic.
For the druid I'm making there is the god Sylvanas from the FR setting. But I'd like to use the celtic druid history of our own world and thus need an opposing religion+god who oppressed and murdered those who would not succumb and join their ranks.
But who can fill the boots of evil christianity in a fantasy setting?.
Remember that religion in the Realms is a lot different than it is in our own world. In the Realms, even evil gods (except I believe Cyric) acknowledge that other gods--even those who are their enemies--exist and have power, and they don't as a matter of course prevent people from praying to them or following them. It's a lot different from Christianity, which insists that there is only one god and following others is, at best, the wrong path to take.
Clerics (and followers, for that matter) who don't acknowledge the power of other gods would be considered by most to be lunatics. Conversion campaigns and proselytization in general are probably rare in the Realms, and I don't think there's any Realms religion that really matches Christianity (no, not even Ilmater's).
-Silvanus' greatest enemies include Talos, Talona, and Malar. Especially Malar.
Not Malar anymore, he now works for Sylvanus
Not Malar anymore, he now works for Sylvanus
Malar isn't even a god any more. He's been reduced to an exarch of Silvanus.
And Talos seems to have vanished altogether. Shame, really, since I always rather liked him.
Malar isn't even a god any more. He's been reduced to an exarch of Silvanus.
And Talos seems to have vanished altogether. Shame, really, since I always rather liked him.
Exarch's are gods... just the least powerful of the lot.
The hate has mostly cooled down since Malar quit working for Talos (revealed to have been a disguised Gruumsh (annother great 4e relevation) ) and moved to Silvanus' place
History excerpt:
The druids were hunted down and all but eradicated by Rome during the occupation of Britain, in fact they were so brutally destroyed that they vanish from the written record by the 2nd century (when Christianity itself was still being suppressed by Rome as well, and in fact its practice was illegal in the empire till the year 313).
I suspect he (presumably anyway) was referring to paganism in broader, more general sense, rather than druidic practices in particular. Considering how many groups out there today (dubiously) claim lineage with druidism, I think its an understandable, if technically incorrect mistake. ;)
I suspect he (presumably anyway) was referring to paganism in broader, more general sense, rather than druidic practices in particular. Considering how many groups out there today (dubiously) claim lineage with druidism, I think its an understandable, if technically incorrect mistake. ;)
Delusions of power, in any form, are truly bittersweet.
History excerpt:
The druids were hunted down and all but eradicated by Rome during the occupation of Britain, in fact they were so brutally destroyed that they vanish from the written record by the 2nd century (when Christianity itself was still being suppressed by Rome as well, and in fact its practice was illegal in the empire till the year 313).
Sidenote: Aye. Then again, druidism survived in Ireland till the 7th century and their work there is reflected in the various mythological cycles written around that time and later on.
As for suppression of faiths, quite few saw repercussions during the Romans' rule over Europe, mostly the monotheistic and secretive ones - since religion within the Empire was something open to all and celebrated (to a very large extend) in open public. On the other hand, it took Christianity just a couple of hundred years to annihiliate and supress nigh any pagan faiths between Hadrian's Wall and southern Egypt, one of the last to go was that of Isis in 534 CE - after nigh 3.000 years of existence.
I say oppose them all, they're all a bunch of jerks.
Ha!
*To the tune of Married with Children*
Jerks and martyrs, jerks and martyrs
It goes together like horse and carrage...
Not Malar anymore, he now works for Sylvanus
-Ignore it, then.
-If Malar serves Silvanus, though, that does not mean he has to like him. Velsharoon hated Mystra, but he served her. Kiaransalee, Ghaunadaur and Selvatarm all hated Lolth, but all begrudgingly accepted her as the leader of the Dark Seldarine, and in Kiaransalee and Selvetarm's cases, their "superior" who they begrudgingly served.
My suggestion to you is to work out the details with your DM, and have your character be part of a small cult (perhaps heretical) of Silvanus. What your character believes is a large determining factor to who should be opposing him. As a result, I'd suggest making a detailed outline of the cult first before anything else.
1. I'm not trying to start a discussion about theology/ideologies. I'm not a follower of any specific religion even though I study everything as much as possible.
2. The history of druidism is broad and today there are many (neo)paganism groups claiming to have the true heritage of druids (or any other road like shamanism etc). But like many, if not all paganistic groups, it has been diminished to a romanticized hedonistic bastardized crap version not even mildly related to the practices it once was. The book Druids and Druidism by T.D. Kendrick gives a clear view about archeologist findings and historical views about Druids.
3. Reason I choose that history for a druid character is not to have a 1 on 1 conversion into the game world. As said before you can't really do that because there are difference. Still there are similarities that will work in the game and I'd like to use that aspect to flesh out the background of the druidic character. It would also give a different view on in-game druids then the cliched pacifistic treehugger.
4. I really liked the idea of using a good/neutral deity. An extremist branch of that gods church would give a bit of a gray touch. It would also add more depth to the game world. Good suggestions to think about have been: Amaunator, Torm,
5. Campaign is taking place in 4th Edition. So that's is after the Spellplague. Areas are Cormyr. From there it goes to Melvaunt and Xul-Jarak. Then into Dunwood/Narfell region.
On to other stuff... considering the history of the church of Torm, especially in the general region you mentioned, Tenwealth, Tantras, and all, I think that might make for a good antagonist. Goes particularly well with the idea that the gods don't really have much control over who is invested or stays invested as a priest anymore.
Gruumsh/Talos might make an interesting juxtaposition.
You have Talos (being a form of Viking-like Odin/Thor amalgam), and a god who is Celtic (with a Roman name ;) ), and the ancient Vikings loved to reign havok down upon the ancient celts.
I could see Talos and Silvanus have some problems with each other for a plothook, and perhaps Malar playing one against the other (considering he has some overlap with both). Especially in The North - there is canon lore of the (Talos-worshipping) Barbarians working both with and against the Druids of the High Forest, depending on the tribe.
One would think that raising a "fake" second sun above Eversult must have ticked off the local druidic order (this is at the end of the 14th century Realms). Their reaction to it must have been an aggressive one, which in turn provoked the Sunmasters, the militant order of Lathander/Aumanator, to dispatch their servants to persecute offenders of the order. Lathander might have culled the worse of these persecutions, but a staunch diety such as Aumanator would likely expect nothing less from his servants (and at the end of the 15th century this could have led to at best a cordial relationship between Aumanator the Sunlord and Silvanus).
Cormyr has no quick and easy candidates for oppressing druidic orders though, as even Malar is venerated quite often by the woodsmen and nobles fond of hunting in Cormyrs Kings forest.
Pacifism and Druidism doesn't fit in my eyes either. So finding something different and non-cliche is always a good thing in my book. So far I'm learning quite a lot about FR gods and religions. I'm still fairly new to the FR world.
@Markus
That sounds interesting. Especially with a third deity trying to take advantage of the conflict between Sylvanus and Talos. Gives more depth and gray areas of choices that the character will have to make.
@Suin
Cormyr won't be much of an issue. This druid is one of many characters. Each player is allowed to have a few and in case there is a lack of players at the table some will get to play 2 characters. That way there is continuity of the campaign. This druid will be introduced later since we're about to leave Cormyr behind us.
@general
Convincing the DM to use some of these ideas won't be much of a problem. Otherwise I'll incorporate it into a future druid or in my own campaign game.
2. The history of druidism is broad and today there are many (neo)paganism groups claiming to have the true heritage of druids (or any other road like shamanism etc). But like many, if not all paganistic groups, it has been diminished to a romanticized hedonistic bastardized crap version not even mildly related to the practices it once was. The book Druids and Druidism by T.D. Kendrick gives a clear view about archeologist findings and historical views about Druids.
Hopefully it doesn't editorialize the way you just did. I see no reason to take for granted that a "romantic", hedonistic religion is a "diminished" or "crap" version of an ancient and probably a lot less humane religion with values that most people today would never find acceptable.
Hopefully it doesn't editorialize the way you just did. I see no reason to take for granted that a "romantic", hedonistic religion is a "diminished" or "crap" version of an ancient and probably a lot less humane religion with values that most people today would never find acceptable.
I think the point, which your own words also show, is that people now have taken something little understood and most likely amoral by our standards, and have turned it into a mockery of it's former form in an attempt to be part of something meaningful... even if they lack understanding, it's a pitiful shell of a broken belief.
This isn't intended to insult anyone, I'm sorry if it does. But taking anything from the past, gutting it and using the mystic of it to make your own parody of what it was is wrong, IMO.
I think the point, which your own words also show, is that people now have taken something little understood and most likely amoral by our standards, and have turned it into a mockery of it's former form in an attempt to be part of something meaningful... even if they lack understanding, it's a pitiful shell of a broken belief.
This isn't intended to insult anyone, I'm sorry if it does. But taking anything from the past, gutting it and using the mystic of it to make your own parody of what it was is wrong, IMO.
Exactly. And the worst I've come across isn't with druidism, but the (neo)shamanism. And that is not what this topic is originally about.
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Several "druids" I know actually say that they don't follow the druidic path because not enough is known about it. They don't see themselves as druids either because of it and don't call themselves it and just say that they use as much as they know and give their own spin to it. That I can respect and understand. But with the bastard "religions" such as aforementioned neo-shamanism. Now that is a true butchery by westerners who have no grasp of what that "religion" is all about. Condomble, Winti, native Australian tribes way different then those idiotic feel good stuff. It is more that people want to fool themselves trying to find something to feel good with. Fine by me, but don't call it a name it doesn't deserve and thus mocking the true followers of said life paths.
And that attitude is seen in many things. Even in my line of work. Go to a fitness/health gym. People who want to be healthy and in shape. They don't want to be healthy, because it is too much "work". They don't put any effort into understanding even the fundamentals of nutrition and exercise. All they want is to keep stuffing their faces and go the gym a few times a week. There they'll sit at the bar and socialize with others, read magazines while on the treadmills or train with an intensity that even a mouse can do better. So after two years you see the same people with no change at all (easy income for the likes of me), but they actually believe that they are being "healthy" just because they go to the gym. They are fooling themselves and giving the entire fitness a bad rep while at it. It is a mockery to those who do want to be healthy and put real effort and discipline into it.
They're all ego-centric bastards with no respect that **** me off
And that attitude is seen in many things. Even in my line of work. Go to a fitness/health gym. People who want to be healthy and in shape. They don't want to be healthy, because it is too much "work". They don't put any effort into understanding even the fundamentals of nutrition and exercise. All they want is to keep stuffing their faces and go the gym a few times a week. There they'll sit at the bar and socialize with others, read magazines while on the treadmills or train with an intensity that even a mouse can do better. So after two years you see the same people with no change at all (easy income for the likes of me), but they actually believe that they are being "healthy" just because they go to the gym. They are fooling themselves and giving the entire fitness a bad rep while at it. It is a mockery to those who do want to be healthy and put real effort and discipline into it.
They're all ego-centric bastards with no respect that **** me off
I'd appreciate it if people would stop going off topic and keep focused on the Druids in the Forgotten Realms and the questions asked
I was just responding to your own off-topic editorializing. I think it's off-topic to assert or imply that one real-life religion or lifestyle is better or more meaningful than another. If you didn't intend to do that, I apologize--however, that is how it came off to me.
I'm not taking any of this personally, by the way, because I'm not "religious" at all.* And to be fair, I *did* previously add something to the topic.
From krownhunter:
I think the point, which your own words also show...
Kindly explain how my own words prove said point, via PM preferably.
*
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Therefore, I have no horse in the race of whether or not the FSM's religion is "better" than the Invisible Pink Unicorn's.
As to proving points, briefly, you did mention that most people would probably find a lot of the philosophies and practices of those old religions to be abhorrent, and hence change them beyond recognition to espouse a religious belief they likely have no real understanding of, since if they did, they would probably find them just as intolerable as general society would. Though I do think it does relate somewhat to the topic, in the sense the Realms and its people have changed considerably, and so old views and practices may just be falling by the wayside in favor of a more pragmatic viewpoint. The changes in clerical magic, the death of several deities, the much darker feel to the Realms in the current age would certainly point that way in a lot of respects, if only by inferrence... the changes to Lathander at least would indicate such radical shifts in philosophy among at least some of the population, and likely he wasn't the only one so affected.