ORC!ORC!
Did anyone read The Orc King? The description of the orcs' success in the prologue seemed far greater than it was portrayed in the FRCG. Any comments?
Perhaps you should write up some Orc feats! ;)
I was hoping to reinvigorate an old thread from before this fourth edition nonsense. For instance, with such a small number of arcane spellcasters among the orcs of the Dark Arrow Kingdom (correct title?) they should have become a dominant force in the region. Also, will orcs be a race in the player's guide?
Apparently that has a lesser inpact then we were lead to believe...for instance three heavily arcane powrs(Waterdeep, Silverymoon, and Rasheman) didn't saeem to suffer for it as much for their large number of arcane spellcasters.
I was hoping to reinvigorate an old thread from before this fourth edition nonsense. For instance, with such a small number of arcane spellcasters among the orcs of the Dark Arrow Kingdom (correct title?) they should have become a dominant force in the region. Also, will orcs be a race in the player's guide?
With the formation of the Orc kingdoms I am considering allowing player character Orcs although the idea of running a neutral humaniod campaign is starting to sound interesting.
Um... barbarians don't exist in the game yet, and Orcs, even in the MM players stats, only get a +2 to Strength and a +2 to Constitution. What are you talking about in regards to +4's and barbarian bonuses?
3rd edition.
Now consider this:
Orc+Feral Template: F2/Barbarian X
Or perhaps going 1/2 Ogre instead, feral on top and same level advancement.
Then that prestige race, scavenging.. the one with big eyes, poison stinger, digging claws, super immune system (and sagging belly) & swallowing
Very cool to have swallow as Large.
Cooler yet when combined with 1/2 clay golem.. making you immune to cutting & piercing, and thus theres no escape for the bbg ooman from your gut :D
So only medium magical places faired well?
-Only the ones with "plot armor". Some places, the Spellplague passed over because of high magical concentrations, such as cities with Mythals, and other places, it did not, such as Halruaa.
-Now, on the topic of an Orc kingdom that's not evil, I don't like it. I have no problem with an Orc kingdom in the north, but it needs to be evil, not neutral, or good.
and ate him for dinner too.
orc, its whats for dinnner
Orc, the other white meat
Got Orc?
and we can wage war on the ELVES!
FOR TALOS!
FOR TALOS!
-Um, yeah, don't know if you got the new script, but the new battle cry is "For Gruumsh!"...Ah, yeah, here's the problem. They didn't put enough postage on your copy of the letter. Talos, LLC was recently acquired by Gruumsh, LTD.
I agree, Orcs should be a PC race.
and we can wage war on the ELVES!
FOR TALOS!
And people wonder why orcs aren't a powerhouse... Many Arrows got the jest that messing with the elves = dead orcs.
*drives rusty ax into elf*
"OW! My poor sylvan flesh!"
a warrior to the end.
Mandalore Mannyarrows
--Now, on the topic of an Orc kingdom that's not evil, I don't like it. I have no problem with an Orc kingdom in the north, but it needs to be evil, not neutral, or good.
And that is the design attitude that has largely kept me away from Forgotten Realms up to now. Got to say, I'm liking the lot more PC friendly Orc nation write ups I have been reading in the new FRCG.
Tasty Yummy.
I support a Neutral Orc nation that wants to eat all elves.
Tasty Yummy.
Its a Neutral Evil kingdom without a doubt. Willing to compromise, as long as it furthers the cause.
And lets not forget that the Kingdom of Many Arrows was specifically stated as an exception to the rule of the orc population at large. Orc's are very much still savages--even within the kingdom. I imagine that's why you have to consult the MM for stats--they are not meant to be prominent PC's.
We had the Barbarian class for a reason.
Let's not forget the First D&D adventurer.
Savages aren't really Non-Player Characters.
[/IMG]
I'm beginning to see that you are a very literal person. ;)
Either way, orcs really aren't either--as we are discusuing.
We had the Barbarian class for a reason.
And barbarians are savages? No. They can be savage, but aren't necessarily so.
Let's not forget the First D&D adventurer.
Can't forget, because I was never privy to it. But, as your pic tends to try and back up the second point....
Yes, that's pretty much adventurers.
If by Savage you mean thieving, murderous, uncultured rogues out solely for their own naked self-hedonistic lusts being satisfied....
Yes, that's pretty much adventurers.
This, from the guy that just created the post: "Demons! Demons! Demons!"
Well, not all campaigns, nor PC's are played to that degree.
But a bunch of wild and untamed savages isn't necessarilly counter-productive to PCs either.
Very true.
But a bunch of wild and untamed savages isn't necessarilly counter-productive to PCs either.
Indeed. Which is exactly why we have orcs--and to a degree, certain tribes within Many Arrows.
And that is the design attitude that has largely kept me away from Forgotten Realms up to now. Got to say, I'm liking the lot more PC friendly Orc nation write ups I have been reading in the new FRCG.
-Well, can't agree with that. Mind you, the FRCG says that the Silver Marches and the Kingdom of Many-Arrows are currently frosty towards each other.
Um... barbarians don't exist in the game yet, and Orcs, even in the MM players stats, only get a +2 to Strength and a +2 to Constitution. What are you talking about in regards to +4's and barbarian bonuses? Hell, rolling stats isn't a part of 4e either!
You must be talking about half-orcs...full blooded orcs get +4 to strength http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm
No wait!! So Barbarian rage gets +4 to strength and +4 to constitution!! SO if you get 18 roll for Strength at level 1...you get 22 strength in normal!! + rage = 26 STRENGTH AT LEVEL 1!! WAAAA!!! That's what I call epic at level 1!!
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm
Valhalla was a warrior realm where all the warriors were resurrected to fight again at the start of each day. One of the many titles of the one-eyed spear wielding Odin was The Thunderer not to mention The Evil-doer. His son was one of the strongest beings in the universe.
Coincidence? I think not! Although originally only modeled after Odin, now that we have a spellplague model to play with, we can say for certain that Gruumsh, Bagghtru, and the orcs are a post-Ragnarok version of Odin, Thor, and their followers who were betrayed by their former allies, the evil Asgardian Dwarves and Elves.
We should help return Gruumsh to his former greatness as Odin and punish the wicked elves and orcs by decimating their civilizations.
Wouldn't that kinda be a bit painful...you battle eeryday? Aahh...it's an orc thing maybe...but too many battles...geez, you'd have a headache looking at the tactical map all day.
Only for a orc it would be stressful. Tatics aren't quite their thing;) . They are more of the "cave-man" style of battle. I will tell you this woman, orcs will never be supreame, not in FR, not in DnD, not in LOTR, never. I know you like them alot, but they are just NPC's for Drizzt to kill off in order to fill up pages when RAS is out of ideas.
You must be talking about half-orcs...full blooded orcs get +4 to strength http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm
No wait!! So Barbarian rage gets +4 to strength and +4 to constitution!! SO if you get 18 roll for Strength at level 1...you get 22 strength in normal!! + rage = 26 STRENGTH AT LEVEL 1!! WAAAA!!! That's what I call epic at level 1!!
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm
Ok... sometimes my mind boggles...
This thread is about the 4e FRCS, and the desire for orcs as a playable race in the 4e FRPG... IE: the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and Players Guide.
In the 4e rules books, there is currently no entry for Barbarians. They do not exist (as a set of rules) yet. We will not see a published Barbarian until the PHBII (players handbook 2) is released. This month there is supposed to be some rules for a playtest barbarian. Either way, due to the way the 4e mechanics work, we know that the 4e barbarian will not have any sort of mechanic which gives him a +4 to strength. 4e D&D (dungeons and dragons) does not feature such mechanics. He will probably instead get some sort of rage bonus to damage.
In the 4e MM there is a set of rules for a playable Orc. The Orc, in 4e D&D, gains +2 to Strength and +2 to Constitution. It is perfectly balanced against all other playable races (though lacks features such as racial feats, as these abilities are features in the players handbook, and no PHB entry has been written for an Orc as of yet. Only a MM Orcs as a playable race blurb has been released. Again, according to this blurb orcs gain a +2 Strength and a +2 Constitution.
Also, 4e D&D does not feature rolling of dice to discover your players stats. It uses a point buy method.
So, one more time, considering that this thread is about 4e Forgotten Realms and Orcs as a playable race in its 4e incarnation, what are you talking about? You keep bringing up 3e mechanics, but I am not sure how those 3e mechanics are pertinent to this thread one way or another... Again, what are you talking about? Barbarians don't exist yet, stats are not rolled on dice, Orcs don't get a +4 to strength, barbarians won't get a +4 from rage once they do exist, and none of these 3e mechanics are pertinent to any of the discussions at hand... they are certainly not a good reason not to include Orcs as a playable race in the 4e Forgotten Realms (which does not use 3e rules), which seems to be what you were implying. If it was not what you were implying, what were you implying?
Ok... sometimes my mind boggles at people. Lets look over a couple of facts:
Also, 4e D&D does not feature rolling of dice to discover your players stats. It uses a point buy method.
I agree with some of what you said, but 4th ed PHB, p.18 gives METHOD 3: ROLLING SCORES as a header, so yes scores can be rolled 4th edition. I also have to take part blame for any confusion over edition. Although my intent was discussion over 4th edition FR, I did state I wanted to resurrect an old thread, a thread which happened to cover 3rd edition FR. So I apologize in advance for any misunderstandings.
I was hoping to reinvigorate an old thread from before this fourth edition nonsense. For instance, with such a small number of arcane spellcasters among the orcs of the Dark Arrow Kingdom (correct title?) they should have become a dominant force in the region. Also, will orcs be a race in the player's guide?
In response to the OP, I believe that although the Orcs are probably more powerful than humans that they lack a few things that would allow them to dominate the region. This is just my opinion that follows. Orc culture although centered on combat and warfare lacks the underlying aspects that truly allows one to spread. That is agriculture, engineering, and craftsmanship. I don't think they would have a problem gaining territory but holding it would be rough. Feeding there numbers and providing shelter I think is hard for them. I also don't think that the arcane arts they have can match those of wizards well ensconced in towers behind city walls with labs to study and practice magic. Yes they're a threat but lacking the means to truly hold land and grow numbers means they will edge out into new lands then recede. Without the ability to grow and maintain an empire, I don't see them rising above their current empire/status.
Furthermore, in Thesk, the orc population is about 50% thugs/bouncers/mercenaries with about 25% miners and 25% farmers. They have settled in remarkably peaceably there.
We should return Gruumsh to his rightful glory as Odin!
:mad Any challengers?Just a bump to keep orcs on the map.
We should return Gruumsh to his rightful glory as Odin!
Eh...
If they're good enough to get an entire kingdom of their own that isn't blatantly antagonistic to every single other being on the planet, they're good enough to play!
Eh...
Does this mean you disagree with my correlation in #38 based on evidence or simply refuse to accept their validity?
Just a bump to keep orcs on the map.
We should return Gruumsh to his rightful glory as Odin!
-Yes.
Whoever said orcs can't be organized? There are plenty of organized orcs in Faerun...let alone the Shakarim.
You must be talking about half-orcs...full blooded orcs get +4 to strength http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm
No wait!! So Barbarian rage gets +4 to strength and +4 to constitution!! SO if you get 18 roll for Strength at level 1...you get 22 strength in normal!! + rage = 26 STRENGTH AT LEVEL 1!! WAAAA!!! That's what I call epic at level 1!!
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm
Feral orc. F2/Barbarian 17
18+4(orc)+4(feral)+4(Rage)+8(dragon ring, 64k)+5(levels)+5(wishes)+6(belt)= 54
Oh wait, greater rage.. and whatever alternative addon rages one wishes to add... :P
Ok... sometimes my mind boggles at people. Lets look over a couple of facts:
This thread is about the 4e FRCS, and the desire for orcs as a playable race in the 4e FRPG... IE: the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and Players Guide.
But I thought this thread was a remake of MY thread!! It's called The orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc thread...it even has the same title!
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=781366
In the 4e rules books, there is currently no entry for Barbarians. They do not exist (as a set of rules) yet. We will not see a published Barbarian until the PHBII (players handbook 2) is released. This month there is supposed to be some rules for a playtest barbarian. Either way, due to the way the 4e mechanics work, we know that the 4e barbarian will not have any sort of mechanic which gives him a +4 to strength. 4e D&D (dungeons and dragons) does not feature such mechanics. He will probably instead get some sort of rage bonus to damage.
It's just a speculation from you...my bet goes to barbarians getting rage...but that's just me tho'
In the 4e MM there is a set of rules for a playable Orc. The Orc, in 4e D&D, gains +2 to Strength and +2 to Constitution. It is perfectly balanced against all other playable races (though lacks features such as racial feats, as these abilities are features in the players handbook, and no PHB entry has been written for an Orc as of yet. Only a MM Orcs as a playable race blurb has been released. Again, according to this blurb orcs gain a +2 Strength and a +2 Constitution.
Also, 4e D&D does not feature rolling of dice to discover your players stats. It uses a point buy method.
Yes it does...actually I didn't know they did too :P ...We should thank Rumplestilskin for that....
And yeah...+2 to strength and constitution is a good build...kinda makes the orcs more imba.....can u give me a link?
So, one more time, considering that this thread is about 4e Forgotten Realms and Orcs as a playable race in its 4e incarnation, what are you talking about? You keep bringing up 3e mechanics, but I am not sure how those 3e mechanics are pertinent to this thread one way or another... Again, what are you talking about? Barbarians don't exist yet, stats are not rolled on dice, Orcs don't get a +4 to strength, barbarians won't get a +4 from rage once they do exist, and none of these 3e mechanics are pertinent to any of the discussions at hand... they are certainly not a good reason not to include Orcs as a playable race in the 4e Forgotten Realms (which does not use 3e rules), which seems to be what you were implying. If it was not what you were implying, what were you implying?
I'm saying that orcs are good for creating imba characters (I believe orcs as characters is one of the things here that we are talking about?)...but orcs as imba is just me tho'.....
K for all u guys...So yeah...Am I being on topic?
Level 1 orc barbarian vs Level 1 elf ranger....who would win without rolls?
Feral orc. F2/Barbarian 17
18+4(orc)+4(feral)+4(Rage)+8(dragon ring, 64k)+5(levels)+5(wishes)+6(belt)= 54
Oh wait, greater rage.. and whatever alternative addon rages one wishes to add... :P
Nah...at level 1 you only ger 18 (roll) + 4 (barbarian rage) + 4 (racial bonus). = 26....at level 1 if you have a wizard party that has high intelligence you can also cast bulls strength on him = 28 strength for ur orc = EPIC PAWNAGE!!
Only for a orc it would be stressful. Tatics aren't quite their thing;) . They are more of the "cave-man" style of battle. I will tell you this woman, orcs will never be supreame, not in FR, not in DnD, not in LOTR, never. I know you like them alot, but they are just NPC's for Drizzt to kill off in order to fill up pages when RAS is out of ideas.
Whattabout Obould? THe half-ogre guy? And Vrakk...they're a bunch of cool orcs!!
Plus that orc hoard was only 2/5 of the hoard they came from. :D leaderless...and scavenging anything they can find
Obould's and Vraak are just exceptions tho'...
Does this mean you disagree with my correlation in #38 based on evidence or simply refuse to accept their validity?
I don't quite see Gruumsh as Odin, but if you do I see no reason not to run with whatever ideas you have on the matter.
My link was a bit of a joke.:P
But I thought this thread was a remake of MY thread!! It's called The orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc thread...it even has the same title!
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=781366
I didn't realize this thread pertained to an older thread. I took the information in this thread at face value.
It's just a speculation from you...my bet goes to barbarians getting rage...but that's just me tho'
Its more than just speculation. Stat boosting items are gone. Stat boosting powers are gone. The developers have pretty much said that these effects are gone forever. Barbarians very well might receive some sort of rage ability, but this ability is likely to add a straight bonus to something like damage (and be stated as a stance style power).
Yes it does...actually I didn't know they did too :P ...We should thank Rumplestilskin for that....
Its not a standard method of character creation, and thus the imbalances that rolling can create should not be considered a standard feature of character creation. Fair enough on them still existing though...
And yeah...+2 to strength and constitution is a good build...kinda makes the orcs more imba.....can u give me a link?
Doesn't imba mean imbalanced? How does a +2 strength and con make orcs more imbalanced? In 4e, all player character races receive a +2 bonus to two stats. Orcs having the exact same stat allocation makes them no more or less balanced than any other PC race...
I'm saying that orcs are good for creating imba characters (I believe orcs as characters is one of the things here that we are talking about?)...but orcs as imba is just me tho'.....
But, mechanically, in 4e, orcs don't make imbalanced characters. They are not any more or less useful than any other player character in 4e. Their bonuses are directly co relational to the type of abilities granted to stuff like elves.
Level 1 orc barbarian vs Level 1 elf ranger....who would win without rolls?
Nobody can answer that. There are no currently stated rules for playing a barbarian in 4e. That is kind of why I was getting frustrated. You keep bringing up 3e rules in relation to a thread that seemed to be about 4e. If this thread is not just about 4e, then sorry for my frustration. On the other hand, an orc ranger vs. a elf ranger, and the two are pretty much equally on par against each other (in 4e).
Whattabout Obould? THe half-ogre guy? And Vrakk...they're a bunch of cool orcs!!
Try comparing orcs to Shades or Drow. They would get swamped. Oh...speaking of drow...they use who for slaves? Or- (fill in the blank for me)
And if you want to compare individual heros. Let's do that.
Most High of Shade Enclave
Elminster
Vollmaux(however you spell it)
Szass Tam
Master Cheif
I don't quite see Gruumsh as Odin, but if you do I see no reason not to run with whatever ideas you have on the matter.
My link was a bit of a joke.:P
I know and appreciated it. The intent was to respond in kind but after rereading my response I don't know why I thought anyone might take my response as a joke. I guess I was more tired than I realized.
Back to the point, did anyone find it as surprising as I did that the current suzerain is a female orc?
By the way, is suzerain merely a description like leader or an actual title like queen?
I wouldn't call them dominant individually...I would call them dominant as an army/group however....picture this....a part of an unknown orc hoard from another planet suddenly gets warped into Faerun by a powerful unknown wizard from that other planet...the wizard casted a mass teleport to the orc hoard and transfer them all to hell...but due to the death of Mystra the orc hoard (bigger than anything Faerun has ever seen or heard of before) is accidentally teleported into Faerun because of the wizards mistakes. THe orc hoard would comprise of at least 7, 623, 122 orcs in approximate count.
Plus that orc hoard was only 2/5 of the hoard they came from. :D leaderless...and scavenging anything they can find
Obould's and Vraak are just exceptions tho'...
Even better, send in another horde from the same world the gray orcs came from. A world dominated by empires of powerful magic-using (Divine magic that is..) orcs. Perhaps when Thayd opened that portal about 3000 years ago he actually opened it to the future of Faerun. It is now our duty to bring about that glorious future.
I'm really rambling right now...
Even better, send in another horde from the same world the gray orcs came from. A world dominated by empires of powerful magic-using (Divine magic that is..) orcs.
-Well, we have no clue what that world was like.
I'm really rambling right now...
-Yes, yes you are.
I know and appreciated it. The intent was to respond in kind but after rereading my response I don't know why I thought anyone might take my response as a joke. I guess I was more tired than I realized.
Relax, it's all good.:D
Back to the point, did anyone find it as surprising as I did that the current suzerain is a female orc?
Yes, I did find that surprising.
By the way, is suzerain merely a description like leader or an actual title like queen?
Not sure. If I had to guess, I'd say it was a title for that area.
-noun
1. A sovereign or a state exercising political control over a dependent state.
2. History/Historical. a feudal overlord.
3. A nation that controls another nation in international affairs but allows it domestic sovereignty.
–adjective
1. characteristic of or being a suzerain.
:thumbsdow
Try comparing orcs to Shades or Drow. They would get swamped. Oh...speaking of drow...they use who for slaves? Or- (fill in the blank for me)
K....I think they're just on par...not regarding the heroes...but the armies...
=Drow looses to Bruenor in one single battle with aid of Alustriel and her lackeys
=Orcs were able to take land portions in Bruenor's kingdom when they battled with clan battlehammer with the aid of Alustriel, her lackeys, Elves of Moonwood, That other city that got swamped by trolls, Dale barbarians and some friends of Deneir's chosen. PLus they owned villages on the way ahead.
=The orc-gate wars was an epic event in the Realms
=Orc god Gruumsh owned the hell out of Talos
=Entreri = shade / couldn't beat Drizzt while Obould beat him on first round (coz Drizzt ran away) and got a tie on the next round. You are free to post in some non-canonical speculations that Drizzt would've owned him if it weren't for the earthquake...but that's pure fanfiction and really didn't come out of the book. :P
=And regarding the drow having orcs as slave thingy...don't humans use hydras and dragons for slaves? Trying to compare a drow to an orc is like trying comparing a human to a dragon....that would be out of hand would it.
=It is said that one drow is equivalent to 10 orcs.....but orc population is more than 10X bigger than drow...so yeah....orcs would outnumber drow in a battle.
=Orc numbers are very huge in Faerun...they can even afford some ground-fodder as handicap for their enemies.
=It is said that one drow is equivalent to 10 orcs.....but orc population is more than 10X bigger than drow...so yeah....orcs would outnumber drow in a battle.
-That's why Orc have never amounted to much in the world. Their society makes their individual, relative worth so low.
Suzerain:
-noun
1. A sovereign or a state exercising political control over a dependent state.
2. History/Historical. a feudal overlord.
3. A nation that controls another nation in international affairs but allows it domestic sovereignty.
–adjective
1. characteristic of or being a suzerain.
Thanks once again.
K....I think they're just on par...not regarding the heroes...but the armies...
=Drow looses to Bruenor in one single battle with aid of Alustriel and her lackeys
=Orcs were able to take land portions in Bruenor's kingdom when they battled with clan battlehammer with the aid of Alustriel, her lackeys, Elves of Moonwood, That other city that got swamped by trolls, Dale barbarians and some friends of Deneir's chosen. PLus they owned villages on the way ahead.
Armies huh? Like the ones Drizzt took out a good portion of by himself with no use of magic?
Drow fought at a disadvantage. Orcs are use to the light. If orcs were to try and raid the undercity, they would be trying to survive rather than advance.
=Entreri = shade / couldn't beat Drizzt while Obould beat him on first round (coz Drizzt ran away) and got a tie on the next round. You are free to post in some non-canonical speculations that Drizzt would've owned him if it weren't for the earthquake...but that's pure fanfiction and really didn't come out of the book. :P
He used the help of a God. Did Artemis use a God while fighting Drizzt? Not to mention that all magical items were dispelled in the room Jaralxel had prepared. Serving a God, and being close to a chosen will turn the tides of battle. Put that into consideration. And for the record, since you want to include the use of a God as "winning" the battle. Then Artemis did beat Drizzt with the help of Jarlaxel and his band bergade.
=And regarding the drow having orcs as slave thingy...don't humans use hydras and dragons for slaves? Trying to compare a drow to an orc is like trying comparing a human to a dragon....that would be out of hand would it.
Trying to compare a orc to a drow, is like comparing the mentally challenged person to Einstein. And I remember Obould was taught by some Drow during the thousand orcs series. The orcs are natuarlly dumbwitted.
=It is said that one drow is equivalent to 10 orcs.....but orc population is more than 10X bigger than drow...so yeah....orcs would outnumber drow in a battle.
In a world where individuals can become Gods. I don't think numbers count for much. Novels have shown prime examples of that. Specificly with orcs.
=Orc numbers are very huge in Faerun...they can even afford some ground-fodder as handicap for their enemies.
They reporduce like rabbits because they have no class or sense of dignity. Having a few wives for 1 husband here and there. Very primitive society. I would have thought you, yourself would have looked down at orcs for that notion since you, are in fact a woman yourself. None to be praised.
Armies huh? Like the ones Drizzt took out a good portion of by himself with no use of magic?
Drow fought at a disadvantage. Orcs are use to the light. If orcs were to try and raid the undercity, they would be trying to survive rather than advance.
He used the help of a God. Did Artemis use a God while fighting Drizzt? Not to mention that all magical items were dispelled in the room Jaralxel had prepared. Serving a God, and being close to a chosen will turn the tides of battle. Put that into consideration. And for the record, since you want to include the use of a God as "winning" the battle. Then Artemis did beat Drizzt with the help of Jarlaxel and his band bergade.
Trying to compare a orc to a drow, is like comparing the mentally challenged person to Einstein. And I remember Obould was taught by some Drow during the thousand orcs series. The orcs are natuarlly dumbwitted.
In a world where individuals can become Gods. I don't think numbers count for much. Novels have shown prime examples of that. Specificly with orcs.
They reporduce like rabbits because they have no class or sense of dignity. Having a few wives for 1 husband here and there. Very primitive society. I would have thought you, yourself would have looked down at orcs for that notion since you, are in fact a woman yourself. None to be praised.
I counter all your arguments as follows:
:pile: :bounce: :hoppingma :hoppingma
:fight!: :fight!: :hoppingmaArmies huh? Like the ones Drizzt took out a good portion of by himself with no use of magic?
Yeah, and like the 3 drow Obould owned. And the wizards and drow wizardess that used magic to battle him.
Drow fought at a disadvantage. Orcs are use to the light. If orcs were to try and raid the undercity, they would be trying to survive rather than advance.
So drow fought at a disadvantage? They had demons, kobolds, orcs and other walabalakas they could summon that are very used to light....
Orcs are used to the light?...No they aren't
Look, main point is the orcs took what the drow couldn't. If the drow fought at a disadvantage and the orcs fought at a level on par, then that would've made the drow dumber than the orcs.
He used the help of a God. Did Artemis use a God while fighting Drizzt? Not to mention that all magical items were dispelled in the room Jaralxel had prepared. Serving a God, and being close to a chosen will turn the tides of battle. Put that into consideration. And for the record, since you want to include the use of a God as "winning" the battle. Then Artemis did beat Drizzt with the help of Jarlaxel and his band bergade.
Why are you bringing the gods up? Dude...that's like comparing powers with Elminster and Larloch....Elminster's a chosen and Larloch isn't....So why is Larloch more powerful than Elminster? It's not being a chosen that counts, it's how you carry your advantages.
OBOULD VS DRIZZT
First fight = One on one battle with no interruptions = Drizzt ran away
2nd fight = One on one battle with the interruption of earthquake = tie.
ENTRERI VS DRIZZT
First fight = Drizzt owned the **** out of Entreri in their battle at the Streams of Silver
2nd = Drizzt owned him again with that sleeping crossbow
3rd = Drizzt lost because Jarlaxles psionicist GOT IN THE WAY AND HELPED HIM.
Trying to compare a orc to a drow, is like comparing the mentally challenged person to Einstein. And I remember Obould was taught by some Drow during the thousand orcs series. The orcs are natuarlly dumbwitted.
Obould was played by drows in the thousand orcs...and he owned the sh** out of them
In a world where individuals can become Gods. I don't think numbers count for much. Novels have shown prime examples of that. Specificly with orcs.
Yes it does...So says the novel Crusade (100 orcs of Vraak), Drizzt series (Obould's thousand), Cormyr (last book), Moonshaes,
They reporduce like rabbits because they have no class or sense of dignity. Having a few wives for 1 husband here and there. Very primitive society. I would have thought you, yourself would have looked down at orcs for that notion since you, are in fact a woman yourself. None to be praised.
Actually I find rabbits cute.
Yeah, and like the 3 drow Obould owned. And the wizards and drow wizardess that used magic to battle him.
3?! Oh, I'm sorry. I never knew he could take out single digits so skillfully! With Obould taking out numbers like that, no wonder he is such a proud orc warrior. Artemis took out a dracolich...Drizzt entered the undercity alone going agaisn't the number 1 house praised by Lolth.
So drow fought at a disadvantage? They had demons, kobolds, orcs and other walabalakas they could summon that are very used to light....
Orcs are used to the light?...No they aren't
Look, main point is the orcs took what the drow couldn't. If the drow fought at a disadvantage and the orcs fought at a level on par, then that would've made the drow dumber than the orcs.
Drow acomplish what orcs can't. Orcs need numbers to be effective. Drow kill each other off and keep further advancing. How about we get the orcs out of RAS area, and throw them in shadowdale? Have them contend with the Shade Enclave or even Thay. They would be target practice. Oh, how did you like Swordmage? Even with the help of the warlock knights, the orcs lost to milita? Rofl...what a joke race.
Why are you bringing the gods up? Dude...that's like comparing powers with Elminster and Larloch....Elminster's a chosen and Larloch isn't....So why is Larloch more powerful than Elminster? It's not being a chosen that counts, it's how you carry your advantages.
OBOULD VS DRIZZT
First fight = One on one battle with no interruptions = Drizzt ran away
2nd fight = One on one battle with the interruption of earthquake = tie.
ENTRERI VS DRIZZT
First fight = Drizzt owned the **** out of Entreri in their battle at the Streams of Silver
2nd = Drizzt owned him again with that sleeping crossbow
3rd = Drizzt lost because Jarlaxles psionicist GOT IN THE WAY AND HELPED HIM.
Yeah..it's how you carry your advantages..so if I had a gun, and you had a rock. If I had a car, and you had a bicycle. You're telling me it's just how I carry my advantage? You and me both know that if Obould did not have the help of his God, he would have lost. If Drizzt had a God, Obould would have been one dead green ape.
Yeah, Jarlaxles psionicist got in the way...AFTER they fought completly fair might I add. But according to your logic, you can't hold that agaisn't Artemis, because it's how you carry your advantages...right?;)
Obould was played by drows in the thousand orcs...and he owned the sh** out of them
Let him contend with Jaraxel. He could not outwit him in a thousand years. In fact, I'm sure he would get used. Have Obould fight someone who has a God, who has magic, unlike Drizzt. Cale? Szazz Tam? Elminster? He wouldn't be able to play with the big boys.
Yes it does...So says the novel Crusade (100 orcs of Vraak), Drizzt series (Obould's thousand), Cormyr (last book), Moonshaes,
I'm sure you've read the sellsword series. Remember how Jarlaxel and Artemis were walking by, and started fighting over 50 orcs by themselves? And were changing fighting sides of the orcs just for no other reason to kill some time? You know how many orcs Drizzt killed with just pure meele? Pretty sad for a Drow that is 4Ft something probaly weighs under 140 lbs. And bragging about numbers doesn't help your debate, it's pretty sad if you ask me that they need quanity over their lack of quality to win.
Actually I find rabbits cute.
I find orcs disgusting. Radio active hunching apes (Green orcs;) ) Illiterate and dumbfounded as well. No wonder Drow use them as slaves, it's easy to fool and orc, and even easier to put fear in them with a simple whip consisting of snake heads.
They are swarm creatures, that breed rapidly, attack blindly, and generally fail miserably.
You might want to hold up Oboulds triumph as a true showing of orc power, but it is really nothing more than a contrived story plot, to change the world for 4e.
The Orcs couldn't reasonably have done what they did by game terms, and they had the advantage only in the lack of casters, that were in turn available against the Drow. Additionally, the Drow were WINNING if you recall, only the sun which they didn't understand lost that battle for them. Orcs don't suffer from the same damning shortcoming.
By all Accounts, the battle of Mithril Hall, was lost, but again, the author alone chose to allow it's survival. Game wise, both battles would have gone drastically different.
I will point out that the Drow used orcs as canon fodder, and that in virtually every other instance, Orcs have lost horribly. How many Orcs has Drizzt fesibly killed in his years. They are really nothing more than temporary time killers in terms of game mechanics. Iouloum alone nearly erradicated the Orc population, so I'd hardly go about touting their superiority. ;)
Lastly, Obould didn't survive from Skill, or superiority, he survived off of dumb luck, and Drizzts inability to puncture his armor with his weapons. I might be able to kill a tank driver in hand to hand, but I won't get far using that knife against the tank itself. And lets not forget, were it not for that earthquake, Obould would have died at the hands/ blade of Khazad'hea (SP?).
-RW
While I don't really care one way or the other, I will say Creyzi you are giving Orcs far to much credit.
They are swarm creatures, that breed rapidly, attack blindly, and generally fail miserably.
You might want to hold up Oboulds triumph as a true showing of orc power, but it is really nothing more than a contrived story plot, to change the world for 4e.
The Orcs couldn't reasonably have done what they did by game terms, and they had the advantage only in the lack of casters, that were in turn available against the Drow. Additionally, the Drow were WINNING if you recall, only the sun which they didn't understand lost that battle for them. Orcs don't suffer from the same damning shortcoming.
By all Accounts, the battle of Mithril Hall, was lost, but again, the author alone chose to allow it's survival. Game wise, both battles would have gone drastically different.
I will point out that the Drow used orcs as canon fodder, and that in virtually every other instance, Orcs have lost horribly. How many Orcs has Drizzt fesibly killed in his years. They are really nothing more than temporary time killers in terms of game mechanics. Iouloum alone nearly erradicated the Orc population, so I'd hardly go about touting their superiority. ;)
Lastly, Obould didn't survive from Skill, or superiority, he survived off of dumb luck, and Drizzts inability to puncture his armor with his weapons. I might be able to kill a tank driver in hand to hand, but I won't get far using that knife against the tank itself. And lets not forget, were it not for that earthquake, Obould would have died at the hands/ blade of Khazad'hea (SP?).
-RW
Do you forget the grat orcs that killed half the Untheric pantheon by summoning avatars of their own gods? Before their society degenerated, after being cut off from their homeland and military industrial base, they rocked. There is no reason they could not do that again, if pulled together for a few generations. Also, the half-ogre from the orc king used swarm fodder, but obould taught his minions to not use it and they very effectively bottled up the dwarves and half the north as a fledgling nation.
Do you forget the grat orcs that killed half the Untheric pantheon by summoning avatars of their own gods? Before their society degenerated, after being cut off from their homeland and military industrial base, they rocked.
-Again, we know nothing of the world the Gray Orcs came from.
-That said, majority of the conversation is revolving around Mountain Orcs, not Gray Orcs.
Do you forget the grat orcs that killed half the Untheric pantheon by summoning avatars of their own gods? Before their society degenerated, after being cut off from their homeland and military industrial base, they rocked. There is no reason they could not do that again, if pulled together for a few generations. Also, the half-ogre from the orc king used swarm fodder, but obould taught his minions to not use it and they very effectively bottled up the dwarves and half the north as a fledgling nation.
I will note I said generally, and that I said they are swarm creatures. Given the time to rapidly breed, I don't doubt they will be a threat. However, the times they have succeeded vs the times they have failed are by no means balanced. On is a great mound, while the other is still a ditch of lore.
I am not argueing that Obould used some sound tactics, I am simply saying that the novels purpose dictated that he couldn't lose. The no show of Silverymoon was evidence enough to this end.
I am not saying orcs can't make for an interesting story, however extenuating circumstances keep them in the Realms of goofy patsy for the time being. You can't look at a few triumphs, and ignore the lacklustre truth, and hope to convince people they are a great species.
-RW
I will note I said generally, and that I said they are swarm creatures. Given the time to rapidly breed, I don't doubt they will be a threat. However, the times they have succeeded vs the times they have failed are by no means balanced. On is a great mound, while the other is still a ditch of lore.
I am not argueing that Obould used some sound tactics, I am simply saying that the novels purpose dictated that he couldn't lose. The no show of Silverymoon was evidence enough to this end.
I am not saying orcs can't make for an interesting story, however extenuating circumstances keep them in the Realms of goofy patsy for the time being. You can't look at a few triumphs, and ignore the lacklustre truth, and hope to convince people they are a great species.
-RW
A few triumphs? How many kingdoms have they destroyed? How many great civilizations have they annihilated? One horde went from the north all they way to Calimshan... How are you defining great, for a 'species'? If you would pick a particular kingdom and say it does not meet the standard when compared to other kingdoms, you might have a point. But not a great species? To clear things up, halflings and gnomes are not great species.
Let's go a bit farther, the humans of Netheril were helped along by the Elves and then learned from the Sarukkh Nether Scrolls. The humans of Cormanthor were extensively aided by the Elves, again.Calimshan's lore had a lot to do with the Efreet, Djinn, and Genasi. Mulhorrand learned from their Imaskari masters. The dwarves and elves built civilizations on their own because game designers wanted it that way and no one wanted to write a novel differently. They have had no beneficent aid to them and yet they have thrived, destroyed, and conquered. it all depends on your standards for determining greatness.
One of the things that irks me the most about 4th ed is that in their effort to create points of light in the darkness they completely removed the possibility of being an orc, half-orc, or drow point of light. of course, the stats exist in the MM, but there is no support for making a unique character.
A few triumphs? How many kingdoms have they destroyed? How many great civilizations have they annihilated?
Not nearly as many as others races have killed orcs off. Ever played a MMORPG? You know when you are a low level and kill weak monsters to gain quick exp? That's orcs in FR. And in novels, they are a page filler when the story plot is at a loss.
To clear things up, halflings and gnomes are not great species.
I'll 2nd that. Regis is useless and always needs rescuing. Only Drizzt would go out of his way to waste his time every other novel to help him and deplete resources and gain new scars for the halfling.
Let's go a bit farther, the humans of Netheril were helped along by the Elves and then learned from the Sarukkh Nether Scrolls. The humans of Cormanthor were extensively aided by the Elves, again.Calimshan's lore had a lot to do with the Efreet, Djinn, and Genasi. Mulhorrand learned from their Imaskari masters. The dwarves and elves built civilizations on their own because game designers wanted it that way and no one wanted to write a novel differently. They have had no beneficent aid to them and yet they have thrived, destroyed, and conquered. it all depends on your standards for determining greatness.
And their civilizations compared to that of orcs make it look like a tree house. The orcs might as well be classified as barbarians (For the most part at least with the exception of a few). Honestly, if it came down to a world-war. The orcs would not be that of the top ranking when it comes to survival of the fittest. They know how to kill, not survive. Orcs would be the type to keep charging up a hill with weapons consisting of range pouring over them until they were depleted of an army.
A few triumphs? How many kingdoms have they destroyed? How many great civilizations have they annihilated? One horde went from the north all they way to Calimshan... How are you defining great, for a 'species'? If you would pick a particular kingdom and say it does not meet the standard when compared to other kingdoms, you might have a point. But not a great species? To clear things up, halflings and gnomes are not great species.
And i would not argue that they are. ;)
However, I would define great as making a lasting civilization, with a sound base of power, that was built intelligently, with losses far outshined by victories.
Orcs have always been a race to die by the thousands to achieve a single beachhead. Just because they have the numbers to do so, doesn't really make them superior. They expend so many resources trying to do something, only to lose control of it once they achieve their goal. Hell, without a leader of insurpassable power, they can't adhere to one another for very long. most civilized races simply buckle down, and let them kill each other off.
Let's go a bit farther, the humans of Netheril were helped along by the Elves and then learned from the Sarukkh Nether Scrolls.
And eventually split off from both, and established themselves as a power feared even by the Elves. Their victories far outshone their defeats.
The humans of Cormanthor were extensively aided by the Elves, again.
How does it matter who aided whom anyway? This doesn't show the orcs being great, or even on par. It simply shows that numbers, and surprise assaults work. That is true for any army throughout history.
Calimshan's lore had a lot to do with the Efreet, Djinn, and Genasi. Mulhorrand learned from their Imaskari masters. The dwarves and elves built civilizations on their own because game designers wanted it that way and no one wanted to write a novel differently. They have had no beneficent aid to them and yet they have thrived, destroyed, and conquered. it all depends on your standards for determining greatness.
As I stated above, they would have had to have made a decicive victory early on, and shown themselves as a people capable of continued greatness over a long history. their history however has seen them as slaves, canon fodder, and animals of singular unimportance. And orc comes to town, and most people laugh. They don't take anything less than a horde seriously, and for good reason. Orcs have never been a race to validly fear.
They are unintelligent, beasts of burden, used to hiding in caves, and raiding caravans, inbetween having private wars that don't even merit a mention in most sources. 100 victories don't outshine 1 million defeats.
Through fantasy history, they have been portrayed as the dispensible foe, in both novel and game. With few exceptions, they remain inferior, and of little significance.
This is not to say I don't like them. Simply that most species, and countries have proven to be superior in every way.
One of the things that irks me the most about 4th ed is that in their effort to create points of light in the darkness they completely removed the possibility of being an orc, half-orc, or drow point of light. of course, the stats exist in the MM, but there is no support for making a unique character.
It's early. Give it time, and you'll have stats. The drow already have stats, and I'd imaging that Half-orcs will be in the PHB 2.
-RW
About elven aid to Netheril? Themagic taught them put them on a near par with the elves and the Nether scrolls as well as the Terraseer (himself a Sarrukkh lich...) prodding the arcanists in the right direction were enormous boons no orc nation ever received.
About Elven aid to Cormyr? The elves for a long while were pretty much the source of the wizards who were at the right hand of the Kings of Cormyr which led to the forming of the wizrds and was instrumental to the survival of the nation.
Now tell me one instance where a nation tried to make friends with their orc counterparts before it devolved into a war for survival? or where a benevolent deitystepped in to aid and help develop an orc civilization. Even Selune, whose 3rd ed dogma stated a belief that all should be treated equal, never raised a figure. Imagine, if Myth Dranno, in the height of its glory, had began taking very small orc tribes and brought them to civilization by giving all the mothers grieving over their dead children the opportunity to see their children grow and live.
What it boils dow to is that game creators simply chose to not allow certain groups to be successful, even though we know from human experience that with enough of a population, there will always be greats.
Out of the blue here, does anyone have a copy of the original Advanced D&D DMG? I distinctly remember somewhere in there mentioning a half-orc arch-mage.....
I'm through rambling now.
When talking through history about novels you left out some of the more recent ones such as the war of the ancients trilogy and the orc queen trilogy by morgan howell.
I have not read them, but a pair of novels doesn't change the history thus far.
About elven aid to Netheril? Themagic taught them put them on a near par with the elves and the Nether scrolls as well as the Terraseer (himself a Sarrukkh lich...) prodding the arcanists in the right direction were enormous boons no orc nation ever received.
I am not saying they are not at a disadvantage, simply that they have failed in the long run regardless of advantage. Just because little timmy didn't have a father to teach him to play baseball, doesn't mean he'll be a bad player. but if he can't swing the bat, I am not wrong in calling him a failure.
About Elven aid to Cormyr? The elves for a long while were pretty much the source of the wizards who were at the right hand of the Kings of Cormyr which led to the forming of the wizrds and was instrumental to the survival of the nation.
Again, saying that they had advantages to survival doesn't matter. All the orcs have done it breed and die young. Not a very impressive track record.
Now tell me one instance where a nation tried to make friends with their orc counterparts before it devolved into a war for survival? or where a benevolent deitystepped in to aid and help develop an orc civilization.
The problem comes in that they are inherently Evil, and backed by an evil blood-thirsty god. They spend most of their time attacking one another, and when not infighting, they are raiding the villages of innocent farmers, or waging war on whole human/ elven nations. They burn and destroy as they go, and would sooner ter out your throat than talk.
That is why no nation has approached them. They are nothing but uncivilized cave dwellers, unfit to be more than the handful of experience most adventurers see them to be.
They may get lucky in numbers, but that is it.
Even Selune, whose 3rd ed dogma stated a belief that all should be treated equal, never raised a figure. Imagine, if Myth Dranno, in the height of its glory, had began taking very small orc tribes and brought them to civilization by giving all the mothers grieving over their dead children the opportunity to see their children grow and live.
People have a hard time finding sympathy for mass murderers. They are more akin to Drow in their image, even if lacking in skill. Selune may want equality, but she won't force people to sacrifice their lives for a group of savage beasts.
However, if they were to extend the olive branch before the blade, the world might sing a different tune. However, they don't. it's brute force or nothing for them. Even in the Last Orc, peace wasn't brought about until after they had taken what they wanted, and bunkered down. That isn't negotiation or peace. It's America if anything. :P
What it boils dow to is that game creators simply chose to not allow certain groups to be successful, even though we know from human experience that with enough of a population, there will always be greats.
Out of the blue here, does anyone have a copy of the original Advanced D&D DMG? I distinctly remember somewhere in there mentioning a half-orc arch-mage.....
I'm through rambling now.
Orcs have always been prtrayed as savage unthinking brutes. They attack and mutilate all they come across. It is no wonde rthe designers wrote them as they have alays been described.
this isn't a case of racial suppression, it is a case of the orcs creating a self fullfilling profecy of unending hate. No one is shocked when orcs attack, and the orcs never try a different approach. Until they do, they will remain inferior.
-RW
But it seems like most of you are underestimating their potentials and power, namely the power of their numbers.
The orc-gate wars caused plenty of tension to Faerun and became a historic event even more epic than Drizzt's legacy itself.
Vraak's name is legendary on Zhentil Keep and on the Crusades....He even survived Azoun IV Crusade while that bastard Dwarf King died.
Dark Arrow....well if it really wasn't a threat in the early times then Alustriel, Mithril Hall, The elves, that City Overrun by trolls (keep forgetting the name), and the Dales wouldn't have joined forces to battle against it.
Not nearly as many as others races have killed orcs off. Ever played a MMORPG? You know when you are a low level and kill weak monsters to gain quick exp? That's orcs in FR. And in novels, they are a page filler when the story plot is at a loss.
Orcs are like cackroaches, you kill one 10 of them sprout again...so what? One drow killed a ten of us all by himself...that's okay, orcs still got hundreds of thousands to spare. And I doubt that one drow could beat 101 orcs.
BTW Maybe you haven't heard of Vraak or General Vorrr before?
And I bet a level 1 orc barbarian would own a level 1 drow.
3?! Oh, I'm sorry. I never knew he could take out single digits so skillfully! With Obould taking out numbers like that, no wonder he is such a proud orc warrior. Artemis took out a dracolich...Drizzt entered the undercity alone going agaisn't the number 1 house praised by Lolth.
Artemis > Dracolich
Artemis < Drizzt
Obould = Drizzt
Artemis < Obould
Obould > Dracolich
Drow acomplish what orcs can't. Orcs need numbers to be effective. Drow kill each other off and keep further advancing. How about we get the orcs out of RAS area, and throw them in shadowdale? Have them contend with the Shade Enclave or even Thay. They would be target practice. Oh, how did you like Swordmage? Even with the help of the warlock knights, the orcs lost to milita? Rofl...what a joke race.
Yes you are right orcs need numbers to be effective. Fortunately for them they DO HAVE THE NUMBERS TO BE EFFECTIVE.
And Shadowdale warriors lead by Kelemvore got owned by an orc ambush in Avatar!!
Yeah..it's how you carry your advantages..so if I had a gun, and you had a rock. If I had a car, and you had a bicycle. You're telling me it's just how I carry my advantage? You and me both know that if Obould did not have the help of his God, he would have lost. If Drizzt had a God, Obould would have been one dead green ape.
I keep reading about that "if" word...nobody knows, he could loose...Maybe he could win "IF" only he didn't have the god powers (coz maybe he'd try a lot harder "IF" that happens)...so yeah, those are just speculations....let's just stick to "what really happened".
Yeah, Jarlaxles psionicist got in the way...AFTER they fought completly fair might I add. But according to your logic, you can't hold that agaisn't Artemis, because it's how you carry your advantages...right?;)
Right....no comment.
Let him contend with Jaraxel. He could not outwit him in a thousand years. In fact, I'm sure he would get used. Have Obould fight someone who has a God, who has magic, unlike Drizzt. Cale? Szazz Tam? Elminster? He wouldn't be able to play with the big boys.
I think Obould would loose to Szazz or Elminister, he's not that epic. Jarlaxle? I really don't know...it was said in the book that the drow were afraid of him.
BUt Obould's also been owning plenty of magic users in the book...
That woman who throws fireballs (the gnomes chemists friend)
He got hit by lightning in Orc King tons of times and it was like nothing
Whattabout the drow mage he killed in the end of Two Swords
Vraak faced against a god (Cyric)....and outwitted him
I'm sure you've read the sellsword series. Remember how Jarlaxel and Artemis were walking by, and started fighting over 50 orcs by themselves? And were changing fighting sides of the orcs just for no other reason to kill some time? You know how many orcs Drizzt killed with just pure meele? Pretty sad for a Drow that is 4Ft something probaly weighs under 140 lbs. And bragging about numbers doesn't help your debate, it's pretty sad if you ask me that they need quanity over their lack of quality to win.
Of course...that's what I've been implying ALL THIS TIME...orcs aren't that good...they need quantity to win....and they have that much of a quantitiy....it may be sad to you....but it is a force to be reckoned with in reality....perhaps not much bigger a threat compared to shades, demon invasions, and other walabalakas....or perhaps on par with it...but nevertheless it is something not to be underestimated.
I think there are some historical events that put on orc armies as forces to be reckoned with.
Cormyr = The orcs that built mudcastles that allied with the ghazneths were becoming a big problem for Cormyr
Drizzt series = Dark Arrow orcs established their kingdom on enemy territories surrounded by 5 huge rivals(stronger than themselves) and held it for hundreds of years
Crusades = General Vraak's 100 orc troops never lost a single orc soldier in battle (except for the one who lost his left arm/he's still alive)
OrcGate Wars = Epic
Avatar = Vraak's orc soldiers escaped a kingdom infested with Elementals as big as mountains, Fire Giants and other destructive forces only a god could muster in Faerun.
If anybody can add more then it'd be cool
I think you are unfortunately taking a few victories, and not looking at thousands of years of defeat. For every orc who rises above his breathren, 100 ors will die at the hands of roving adventurers, or angered townsfolk.
-RW
People get mad at Orcs because they are ugly and everyone treats them as second-class citizens. Orcs only attack on sight because thats what everyone else has done to them since the beginnng of time.
Its about time Orcs got treated fairly. Rarely do Orcs act evilly unless they are lead by some evil being, who is usually NOT an an Orc. When left to their own devices, they normally live peacably beside demi-humans (but not other humanoids, who they fight far more often then demi-humans).
-RW
The orcs didn't exist in Faerun for many thousands of years, until a portal let them in.
-RW
Grey Orcs didn't exist..Mountain Orcs did
We all know Grey Orcs are from Azeroth...
The reason orcs do not amount to much is because it is rare that someone unifies them...and it is rarer still for that one person to stay alive. Almost all the damn time they get killed and the orcs go into chaos and scatter...and the process starts anew.
The orcs didn't exist in Faerun for many thousands of years, until a portal let them in.
-Only Gray Orcs. Mountain Orcs, they date back to at least circa -24,000 DR. A massive Orc Horde, let by the Demon Haeksherr, leveled the Sun Elven city of Occidian, and nearly destroyed the city of Sharlarion.
The common orc is mostly a coward who runs so fast during a retreat...Picture them out as barbarians without a proper organization that they just rover around and pillage everything they can find battling against a proper army like Rome or the Knights of Europe...they could easily be repelled most of the time.
But when lead by someone good enough to handle them, they can be a devastating force to be reckoned with. Rome was sacked by barbarians and
The Knights of Europe lost to the Mongols
Those are some example of huge barbarians lead by somebody who can properly handle them. And what happened is epic. The orcs are a sleeping gigantic force in the Realms, loosing plenty of battles, but when they are united and organized they are not to be underestimated.
I counter all your arguments as follows:
:pile: :bounce: :hoppingma :hoppingma
-Thank you!
:D -Lurk mode on! :P
18DELTA
I'm very sorry.
Not yet, but after your done reading my reply you will be.
Orcs are like cackroaches, you kill one 10 of them sprout again...so what? One drow killed a ten of us all by himself...that's okay, orcs still got hundreds of thousands to spare. And I doubt that one drow could beat 101 orcs.
BTW Maybe you haven't heard of Vraak or General Vorrr before?
And I bet a level 1 orc barbarian would own a level 1 drow.
Ok...so according to your brilliant logic again, all we need to do to destroy anyone, is reproduce to an exponetial extent? How many of those orcs actually carry weapons? China has pleanty in their military, yet they can hardly supply them all. Same was with Russia during WW2, they just waited until a comrade died and took his weapon/ammo. They had numbers, and look how far those got them. I bet a level 40 Drow would own a level 40 Orc. I'm glad you have pride for low level battles. Because that is like comparing children before they have proper knowelge. You are saying, when orcs actually begian to advance agaisn't other races in terms of level, they will lose.
Artemis > Dracolich
Artemis < Drizzt
Obould = Drizzt
Artemis < Obould
Obould > Dracolich
Re-read the stories...
Yes you are right orcs need numbers to be effective. Fortunately for them they DO HAVE THE NUMBERS TO BE EFFECTIVE.
And Shadowdale warriors lead by Kelemvore got owned by an orc ambush in Avatar!!
Obould: "Damn! We are losing the battle...time to go back home and make more babies to win the war. Numbers are effective!"
I keep reading about that "if" word...nobody knows, he could loose...Maybe he could win "IF" only he didn't have the god powers (coz maybe he'd try a lot harder "IF" that happens)...so yeah, those are just speculations....let's just stick to "what really happened".
Ok, what really happen was, Obould is a cheater. Used a God power vs someone without a God power. But according to you, it's ok because he "carried" his advantage well. So then, Artemis did not lose, but he carried his advantage well with Jarlaxel. There was a kid on the news that got shot by his father. I guess his father just carried his advantage well agaisn't his son being older and having a gun. That is not a speculation, that actually happened.
Right....no comment.
I'll take that as you conceeding on this valid point. Good day!
I think Obould would loose to Szazz or Elminister, he's not that epic. Jarlaxle? I really don't know...it was said in the book that the drow were afraid of him.
BUt Obould's also been owning plenty of magic users in the book...
That woman who throws fireballs (the gnomes chemists friend)
He got hit by lightning in Orc King tons of times and it was like nothing
Whattabout the drow mage he killed in the end of Two Swords
Vraak faced against a god (Cyric)....and outwitted him
These charactes were all made by RAS, meaning Obould has the authors favor, how about we throw him in another authors area and see how well he fairs then. Any Red Wizard/Shade would wipe the floor with this apes ass.
Of course...that's what I've been implying ALL THIS TIME...orcs aren't that good...they need quantity to win....and they have that much of a quantitiy....it may be sad to you....but it is a force to be reckoned with in reality....perhaps not much bigger a threat compared to shades, demon invasions, and other walabalakas....or perhaps on par with it...but nevertheless it is something not to be underestimated.
On par with it? Ok, once again, I will go along with your theories. If any of those races had the numbers orcs had, what then? They have tatics/powers/numbers. Orcs have numbers. Your logic is questionable at best.
I think there are some historical events that put on orc armies as forces to be reckoned with.
From RAS only? Read swordmage yet? Even with the help of the warlock knights, the apes got curb stomped by some townsfolk that quickly put together a milita.
Makes me wonder what those Eladrin did that made all those lovable Orcs so angry.
Lovable huh?
-Thank you!
-Lurk mode on! :P
18DELTA
Do you ever make a post that is on topic? I was looking through your profile and saw 20 of these things. I mean, I don't care really, just curious.
Here Crazie this ones for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwIPo5x8B4s
And here is some orc fighting a human: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f96hKqkY_Y
Orc army vs human army: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVveoPNrAA&feature=related
Human wins in the end!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQrAIKPk75U
Ok...so according to your brilliant logic again, all we need to do to destroy anyone, is reproduce to an exponetial extent? How many of those orcs actually carry weapons? China has pleanty in their military, yet they can hardly supply them all. Same was with Russia during WW2, they just waited until a comrade died and took his weapon/ammo. They had numbers, and look how far those got them. I bet a level 40 Drow would own a level 40 Orc. I'm glad you have pride for low level battles. Because that is like comparing children before they have proper knowelge. You are saying, when orcs actually begian to advance agaisn't other races in terms of level, they will lose.
Precisely, they're like China...a sleeping giant...an underestimated force.
Re-read the stories...
I've read them twice already
Obould: "Damn! We are losing the battle...time to go back home and make more babies to win the war. Numbers are effective!"
Yes..good point...numbers are very effective...it's a good thing that u agreed with me.
Ok, what really happen was, Obould is a cheater. Used a God power vs someone without a God power. But according to you, it's ok because he "carried" his advantage well. So then, Artemis did not lose, but he carried his advantage well with Jarlaxel. There was a kid on the news that got shot by his father. I guess his father just carried his advantage well agaisn't his son being older and having a gun. That is not a speculation, that actually happened.
Of course...He carried his advantage well...
In every situation the handicapped one always has a chance of putting the advantage to a disadvantage...it's good to see u agree with me.
1.Obould = carried his advantage well = advantages were god powers, armor, flaming sword, strength
2.Drizzt = was a disadvantage at the first fight and wasn't unable to turn it out/on the 2nd they were on par = advantages were: he used a crossbow, Khazidea can cut through anything, dexterous
3.Entreri = lost to Drizzt coz he didn't carry his advantage well = advantages were: he could fly with his cloak, had the element of surprise/tricked Drizzt that he was Regis, dagger could kill in one hit
These charactes were all made by RAS, meaning Obould has the authors favor, how about we throw him in another authors area and see how well he fairs then. Any Red Wizard/Shade would wipe the floor with this apes ass.
How about we throw Obould against Elminster and I'm the author? rofl...joke!!
On par with it? Ok, once again, I will go along with your theories. If any of those races had the numbers orcs had, what then? They have tatics/powers/numbers. Orcs have numbers. Your logic is questionable at best.
They have tactics and power..they also have numbers...but not as much as the orcs have.
From RAS only? Read swordmage yet? Even with the help of the warlock knights, the apes got curb stomped by some townsfolk that quickly put together a milita.
Haven't read swordmage yet tho'
Read Crusades, Avatar? that was cool?
Orcs in Thesk have been remarkably civilized, and that is a result of being accepted.
Palischuk half-orcs even traded with the orcs in the vicinity, until 4th edition decided to completely destroy half-orc points of light....
There are still a ton of dwarven strongholds in goblinoid hands.
:pile: :bounce: :invasion: :hoppingma :fight!:
Maybe they'd open another orc-gate...then another orcgate wars will happen!!
Raido Active Apes FTW!!! (Green hunching orcs)
Grey Orcs on the other hand could pose a potential problem.
So where do the grey orcs come from?
-We don't know. Some other world.
So a world where the religious fanatics had established a global rule by the forcefull hands of the orc pantheon could not have been pretty if the orcs had ruled for an extensive period. The typical orcish style of resource management is raiding and waging war towards the new arable land of your neighbours. I imagine a continent where all forests would be constantly cut down to fuel the warmachine of the orc rulers, brimming with mountainforges who produce as much soot as possible to blacken the skies to a more managable level for the light shunning orcs. Large temples and forges would be the only stable areas on the surface, as much of the other areas get constantly rebuild by a new zealous orc warlord. The mountains would teem with creatures living of the offal and waste that gets thrown down the mountains slopes.
So what made this world susceptible to orc domination? Being their perfect habitat. So a relatively young world rich in calcite plateaus filled with cavernous structures, steep mountain ranges, thick mineral deposits. A world would need a slightly warmer climate, perhaps even less stormy, to help the orcs go out of the stable environment of caves to the surface.
So what made this world susceptible to orc domination? Being their perfect habitat. So a relatively young world rich in calcite plateaus filled with cavernous structures, steep mountain ranges, thick mineral deposits. A world would need a slightly warmer climate, perhaps even less stormy, to help the orcs go out of the stable environment of caves to the surface.
-Not necessarily. In theory, in a world ruled by Orc, they could primarily inhabit other climes and biomes, and simply live in such places in Faerûn because they've been beaten back to these places.
-We don't know. Some other world.
Azeroth! Then again they are from somewhere else...
Azeroth! Then again they are from somewhere else...
-I don't know where that is, but...
At this point and time would you put it past Wizards?
-Again, I don't know what you are talking about. I don't know what/where 'Azeroth' is.
-Well, being as that isn't WotC IP, they couldn't legally do that. They could go as far as heavily implying it, but that's the closest they'd be able to get away with. Without Blizzard's (They own Warcraft, right?) permission, anyway.
-Oh, okay.
-Well, being as that isn't WotC IP, they couldn't legally do that. They could go as far as heavily implying it, but that's the closest they'd be able to get away with. Without Blizzard's (They own Warcraft, right?) permission, anyway.
True...I never did check out any of the Warcraft DnD products...so have no clue. Good source to see what grey orcs could potentially be like irregardless.
-Not necessarily. In theory, in a world ruled by Orc, they could primarily inhabit other climes and biomes, and simply live in such places in Faerûn because they've been beaten back to these places.
I was trying to come up with a world that essentially favors a light-shunning bipedal subterranean mammal with great cunning and strength and a high birth rate.
Of course this world would also have desert, polar, jungle and other orcs, but a world with more mountains and cavernous areas would provide lots of areas that require less resources for the orcs to maintain to their habitual tolerancies.
The problem would be dwarves though.. as such a world would also favor dwarves (those with darkvision). The notion orcs are forced back into the subterranean areas is a bit odd because I always thought orcs deliberately pour out the mountainsides to plunder and preferably retreat back to their caves by day.
I was trying to come up with a world that essentially favors a light-shunning bipedal subterranean mammal with great cunning and strength and a high birth rate.
-Right, I understand that. My point was, perhaps Orcs do not actually thrive in such places, and the only reasons that they inhabit these places to begin with is because these places are "all that's left for them". The "thrown away scraps" that no one else wants.
If Gruumsh still upheld that legend on the Grey Orc homeworld perhaps the orcs followed that lesson and retook the plains, forests and swamps from their mountaineous caves in a righteous crusade against all other races on the world, and the orcs succeeded by their devotion. Succeeding at that might be attributed to advantageous circumstances for their conquest and would require the geomorphological conditions I described earlier... i.e. cavernous structures enabling orcish crusades toward all ecosystems that border on them, or the means to extend much further with their influence by crusading hordes pouring from the dark caves.
A structure like the upper-underdark seems like a perfect habitat for orcs, so that can't be all that attributes to their domination on the Gray Orc world. They didn't manage to dominate on Toril either because the underdark was already occupied and because of internal strife.
I think the best bet for those gray orcs to reach worldrulership would have been to go the way of a war on resources and an adaptation of the climate to favor orcs, i.e. secure as much iron veins as they can and obfuscate the sun by pollution.
This all is based on the fact orcs are adapted to life in caverns and such... If one assumes orc populations on plains would outperform orcs hailing from caverns this all wont work so smoothly.
Too bad crazie doesn't play warcraft, people for w/e reason have pride for the horde (orcs included heavily).
This gave me a really good laugh since LK usually can respond to any topic, and was like "What's Azeroth?". Warcraft story is better than FR, even though you could argue FR has so many authors and characters it's uncomparible.
Tell me what you think of these LK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WOjr6us5qQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A20Dcw9Izyo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f96hKqkY_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVveoPNrAA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW02BWFRnkw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u08oSWm8ZAA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CafflnJxJAI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muZ6nGY_NvQ&feature=related
Please watch them
Anyone with any ideas of what happened to Orogs? Going back to 2nd edition FR, when they favored Ilneval instead of Gruumsh (that change was spelled out in Races of Faerun), they were quite common in the Storm Horns. Did the race suddenly disappear from the face of Faerun with the coming of Abeir. The problem is that the aforementioned Storm Horns, are pretty much like they were before the spellplague, orcs and all. But there are no orogs. What gives?
As with many things, just because they aren't mentioned, doesn't mean they are gone. I wouldn't worry too much about them vacating the scene.
Anyone with any ideas of what happened to Orogs?
-Like JD said, just because they aren't mentioned doesn't mean that they're gone. They're still there, but without stats, for the time being. If you need 4e stats for them, maybe give them Orc stats, with an increased INT and STR.
-Anyway, while I don't recall anything saying that, it's not uncommon for races to worship deities that aren't "specific" to their race. The Ondonti Orcs, for example, worship Eldath- a Human deity, and a peaceful deity, to boot! So, for some Orcs to worship Talos, it certainly sounds very plausible.
Anyone with any ideas of what happened to Orogs? Going back to 2nd edition FR, when they favored Ilneval instead of Gruumsh (that change was spelled out in Races of Faerun), they were quite common in the Storm Horns. Did the race suddenly disappear from the face of Faerun with the coming of Abeir. The problem is that the aforementioned Storm Horns, are pretty much like they were before the spellplague, orcs and all. But there are no orogs. What gives?
Check out the Siege of Bordrin's Watch adventure. link here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/duad/20080813
There are orogs featured in the adventure and a monster manual type entry for them on page 53/54 in this adventure. The entry basically says orogs (sometimes called greater orcs or ogrillons) are a true breeding race originally the offspring of an ogre and orc. I'll let you read the rest.
There is no FR information though but I'm sure they are still around.
Now we just have to figure out how to help the orcs prevail!:fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!:
Much obliged.
Now we just have to figure out how to help the orcs prevail!:fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!:
Don't think we have to worry about that.
So, my question is, what happened to Ilneval?
My guess is that he ended up being killed by Vaprak or one of the other new inhabitants of Nishrek. Any other ideas?
Will Wizards ever think it worth their time to let us know a lost orc deity.
Back to orc discussion. The orc pantheon shifted a little in 4th edition. Unless I misunderstood Mr. Baler, he said they had determined the fates of the missing deities. In other words, who killed who and who got wafted away etc.
So, my question is, what happened to Ilneval?
My guess is that he ended up being killed by Vaprak or one of the other new inhabitants of Nishrek. Any other ideas?
Will Wizards ever think it worth their time to let us know a lost orc deity.
Well, Brian R. James did mention expanding a bit on the current pantheon in DDI, so all hope isn't lost. He, himself, wanted to do such a thing.
I think we will see a trickle here and there of what has happened with the parts of the whole.
Back to orc discussion. The orc pantheon shifted a little in 4th edition. Unless I misunderstood Mr. Baler, he said they had determined the fates of the missing deities. In other words, who killed who and who got wafted away etc.
So, my question is, what happened to Ilneval?
My guess is that he ended up being killed by Vaprak or one of the other new inhabitants of Nishrek. Any other ideas?
Will Wizards ever think it worth their time to let us know a lost orc deity.
Questions for Rich Baker should be asked in his thread at the top of the forum.
:pile: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce::bounce: :bounce::bounce::bounce:
Has anyone besides me read any of the Queen of the Orcs trilogy by Morgan Howell? In it, the orcs have a sophisticated society which is matriarchal.
Anyone?
I also left a post in the ask the designers thread. I tried to come across civil and non accusatory. I think I succeeded.
(Just a bump.)
Has anyone besides me read any of the Queen of the Orcs trilogy by Morgan Howell? In it, the orcs have a sophisticated society which is matriarchal.
Anyone?
I heard about that...I've heard that it had good reviews too....Is it an FR book?
Here's a link to it./
Now we march!
:fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!:
I am excited to inform the Wizards Community that the Orcs have taken over Customer Service at Wizards of the Coast. Effective immediately, all customer service will be handled by the Orcs including email support, forum moderation, phone calls and live Magic Online support and moderation.
The Online Response Crew consists of the Orcs who have taken over at Wizards Corporate Offices in Renton, Washington as well as the Orcs living in their Orc Caves at their homes around the country. We have decided to make these changes due to fact that Orcs can go much longer without the need to eat or sleep and this will in turn allow us to provide better service to our customers. The Orcs, who of course don't drive cars but all ride dire wolves to work, will be less affected by rising gas prices and fewer cars on the road is also good for the environment.
The selection process started with Orc's, Trolls, Halflings, Drow and Goblins. The Goblins were the early leaders and presented some very good ideas but we were not able to get insurance coverage as the Goblins were blowing up too many office supplies; there was also the fire in the bathroom that created some hardships with our facilities team. Overall the Orc's had the best end to end presentation.
When I presented the idea to our executives, it was approved but I was cautioned that the Orcs might be viewed as brutal, savage, warmongers. I assured him them our customers would never think poorly of Customer Service and they will only see them as a proud race with a strong sense of honor.
I will admit our initial orientation was a little rough. On the first day of training we ran through some role-playing scenarios and Orc_Gutgob was up first. His initial response to what he should say to a customer who has a tech related question with Magic Online was "I'll rip his arm off and beat him over the head with it." This was not quite up to the standard our customers were accustomed to. However, after undergoing a rigorous 8 week CS training plan, we have ironed out most of the wrinkles.
So with all this in mind, here's to The Adepts, The Wizos, The CSR's and everyone else.
Can you join me in welcoming The Orcs?
PS – It is still all of the same people – they just have new names.
Kevin Boris
Sr. Customer Service Manager
Wizards of the Coast
Now We March!
:fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!:
I haven't heard of the Howell books, but thanks for the tip. Have orc fans seen the US omnibus edition of the Stan Nicholls trilogy in bookstores? I haven't picked it up, but Orbit continues to impress me with their design and packaging. The cover illustration is marvelous, but its the red page edging that really makes it stand out on a trade table.
I've bought it and I like it. I'm not finished yet...I hadn't read any of the stories prior to picking up the omnibus. But I'll repeat, I like it a lot.
It would be interesting to do a orc campaign...finally...release Pandorym!
-Meh, last time Pandorym was released, not much happened.
Here's a good link about orcs in the Realms (Dark Arrow Keep) and it's history..
BTW: It seems that the orcs of DarkArrow Keep are now going to stay for more hundreds of years to come.... EVen the combined forces of Mithril Hall and Silverymoon is afraid of it...Hell, I think even Menzoberranzan is afraid of Dark Arrow Citadel.
:fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!:
:fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!:
Now we march!
:fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!:
:fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!:
These vs a certain dark
= total devestation for orcs .Ugh... just let it die already...
I totally agree.
Ugh... just let it die already...
I totally agree.
I sir third the motion.
Never.
You're lucky that pig thing on your avatar there is cute or I'd have to do something wrong to you... :P
thats no pig, its a pokemon wannabee, and even if it is cute, i wouldnt let it stop me
And that's why you keep posting here. You REALLY dont want this thread to die. Cuz orcs have that lil pig looking thingy going on... :PYou Sir, are a Orc Lover!
You're lucky that pig thing on your avatar there is cute or I'd have to do something wrong to you... :P
It reminds me of Poomba from The Lion King. :D
Bad Simon for killing him
Is it me or did anyone else think that pig from "Lord of the Flies" was a cutie also
Bad Simon for killing him
No. :P
Orcs aren't pigs. Pigs are far more hygenic than any orc in existence. Probably including the Ondonti. :P
Hey!
Don't you go bad-mouthing my Ondonti!
Next you'll be belittling the Sharakim (race = kewl, the name though... :nonono
My Avatar was outaged by his comment. :P
Next he'll be picking on the Scro, and their mighty Tum warlords.
As for a pic... I haven't been able to find anything new. I may just have to make one m'self...
As for a pic... I haven't been able to find anything new. I may just have to make one m'self...
So...you are going to dress like an orc in drag?
:P
I think male Orcs might make quite good singers. Their barrelchested forms enable capable tenor and bariton voices and their culture is build largely on oral tradition. Their common words might slur thanks to their tusks, but a orc proper battlesong wouldn't consist of many words.
WHAAAGH!!! *Bash* ROOOARRRH! *Slash* OORREEEAAAAA!! *Triumphant pose*
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc I did a lot of 'Mountain stuff' back in my GHDMing days, so Orcs were a given. In FR, I've switched to forests, which means Gnolls (and Elves :devil
are the natural antagonists my PCs face most often.If I ever did Eberron, I'd probaly switch my terrain-of-prefernece yet again... most likely to urban (it suits that setting to do so).
As for me in drag... not since my old Rocky Horror days... I looked great in fishnets on stage. ;)
As for me in drag... not since my old Rocky Horror days... I looked great in fishnets on stage. ;)
No photos though, they mysteriously vanished one evening years ago... what? I'd believe you! :P :D
You haven't seen Rocky until you've seen it there. Thats where they taped the 'Fan Participation' version of the soundtrack.
That was back when we were just dating, before we had kids... and before we started hating each other's guts...
In a way, its nice to be reminded that there were a few good times...
I'd think in the 15th century realms they do in the Kingdom of Many Arrows*.
*funny how the kingdom is prohetically named after its certain end, by elven arrows
Do orcs have marriage?
I believe they have 'mates' - they only marry in an official ceremony when marrying outside their species.
At least, thats the way I always perceived it.
..unless you married her because of an unexpected pregnancy or something.
This.
I did the right thing... what an idiot.
This.
I did the right thing... what an idiot.
Usually a bad idea... sorry.
Though I agree, orcs having "mates" seems the most likely thing to me too.
unexpected pregnancy or something.
Why o why You keep bringging that up?
And for the record, no I'm NOT marring her...:P"Doing the Right thing" is NO substitute for love... no matter how hard you try to make it work.
I'll give you the same advice I give my four boys... as soon as they start to make 'plans', run for your life...
NOTHING is so good that it is worth signing over half your income (or more) for the rest of your life.
:D
@ Stigg
Shut Up
@LK
Getting this Thread back on track; The girl looks like an orc. So probably my baby is gonna be an Half Orc :P
Getting this Thread back on track; The girl looks like an orc. So probably my baby is gonna be an Half Orc :P
-Your bad. I like self-depreciating humor, though.
-Your bad. I like self-depreciating humor, though.
A friend of mine came up with that a long time ago. She whoop his ass and all he said was " I rest My case" :DI told her straight up as soon as I found out. "...Ok ... I got your back..... I'm NOT marring you...." :P
I you "had her back", you wouldn't be in this mess. ;)
And trying to bring this back on-track a little as well... if an Orc described his current mate to his buds by saying "I'm hittin' that", he probably means that in all senses of the word. :D
And trying to bring this back on=track a little as well... if an Orc described his current mate to his buds by saying "I'm hittin' that", he probably means that in all senses of the word. :D
-Obould Many-Arrows is a confirmed wife*-beater.
*Consort. Girlfriend. Whatever.