I believe on candlekeep some time ago I came upon a theory or info that Araushnee was once the Queen of Air and Darkness of the Unseelie Court. Does anyone know in which source that could have been mentioned? Another thing, what is that Unseelie Court? Yes bad feys and the like, but I do not know anything special. I remember that there is the little thing in Magehound mentioned about a mortal sorceress named Araushnee and known as Spider Queen who had something to do with them and was later absorbed or stolen by Lolth.
Out of these pieces I got the idea for my own theory where Lolth maybe came from and to bring all the small pieces of information into an overall picture. It's more about where and what she was before she became Corellons consort.
We know from Evermeet that drow or the "real" dark elves with black skin and all that existed on other planes (Kiaransalee had real drow worshippers on other worlds), long before the green elven part of Toril came under the curse during the crown wars which made them drow too. Then there is that small piece of information in the novel Magehound(?) that there existed long ago a (maybe) mortal drow sorceress named Araushnee or Spider Queen with extraordinary powers who had dealings with the Unseelie and some trouble with them.
Later it is said that Lolth stole her powers and therefore became Araushnee (maybe kinda like she did much later with Zinzerena). We also know that our goddess Lolth/Araushnee came to Corellon as a kind of refugee (maybe from the Unseelie Court?). If Lolth was once a part of the Unseelie Court and through absorbing the sorceress Araushnee made herself some enemies there it would be reason that she had to leave. In the novel Evermeet is also mentioned that she made her gowns in Arvandor of spider silk. That could mean she possessed at that time some “spider powers” from this mysterious sorceress. Maybe that is what were the Unseelies after, the powers of the sorceress Spider Queen but Lolth stole them for herself and did not want to share it with the other unseelies.
If Lolth was once a part of the Unseelie Court and also absorbed the sorceress and had to leave these dark fey creatures behind that would explain why the Crinti in Halruaa and some of their drow ancestors were a kind of afraid of these dark feys, because they are the old enemies of what was once Araushnee/Lolth, before she became the elven (later drow) goddess.
The Queen of Air and Darkness is still mentioned as a separate being in Demihuman Deities, and recent 4th edition lore has the Queen as an aspect of Auril.
Kiaransalee had drow worshipers on other worlds before the Crown Wars? That seems possible, although I had been assuming the Crown Wars were the only elf-drow civil war ever, if only because it's the only one detailed to any degree. I'm sure Demihuman Deities didn't claim she started out as a drow, but said she was "named drow" by her husband, the king of Threnody. It seems like the drow of Threnody were different than the drow of Toril - an unassociated mixed category of elves exiled for a variety of reasons, rather than a coherent race banished as a group after a great war. More like the "dark elves" of Krynn, who are all light-skinned exiles from the major elven nations and don't necessarily congregate together.
I haven't read Evermeet or Magehound, so the rest is out of my depth. Various theories for Lolth's origins that I've heard are:
1. Lolth was a daughter of Corellon and the sister of Sehanine Moonbow (4e core version).
2. Lolth was an ascended mortal elf.
3. Lolth was a demon who disguised herself as a goddess in order to seduce Fenmarel Mestarine and, later, Corellon.
4. Lolth was the Beast Lord of spiders.
Kiaransalee had drow worshipers on other worlds before the Crown Wars?
-Kiaransalee, the only denizen we know coming from there, already exhibited the features of a Drow- onyx skin, white hair, all of that. Her appearance in Realmspace predates the Crown Wars by many thousands of years. She may have been normal for Threnody, or she may have been the exception to the rule.
I saw a referance towards that the Revenancer had a hand in the Descent ritual as its resulting curse turned her potential worship base into a semblance of her own.
-Kiaransalee, the only denizen we know coming from there, already exhibited the features of a Drow- onyx skin, white hair, all of that.
Did she? What are you basing that on? Her current appearance is that of a drow, but that doesn't mean she was like that in her mortal days. Bane was once human, after all, but he doesn't look very human now.
Kiaransalee had drow worshipers on other worlds before the Crown Wars?
Sure, it is said so in Evermeet, when Kethryllia enters the abyss and fights Haeshkarr. There she meets Kiaransalee (besides, black skinned, white haired) and Lolths got the idea to follow her back to Faerûn to look there for followers like Kiaransalee had at that time some for herself. That was long before the Sundering and creation of the island Evermeet, so long before the Crown Wars.
Did she? What are you basing that on? Her current appearance is that of a drow, but that doesn't mean she was like that in her mortal days. Bane was once human, after all, but he doesn't look very human now.
But it also does not mean, that she was a green elf like the ancestors of the drow of Faerûn once have been before the crown wars. Drow on other planes existed as drow already before the Miyeritari and Ilythiiri of Faerûn were turned into drow too. It is more likely that she was in her mortal days a drow, and therefore had the appearance of them since Kia was actually a goddess from another plane and "her children" had been these drow with the typical features.
The more interesting point in this is, if Lolth had also all the time the same appearance, when she came to the Seldarine at the beginning of Evermeet, maybe that is because these ominous Araushnee which she absorbed (if that happened, as I theorise, before she came to Arvandor) was also a drow from another plane.
1. Lolth was a daughter of Corellon and the sister of Sehanine Moonbow (4e core version).
Core versions have differed many times from the lore of the FR Setting, so its not new, that it does in the 4Ed too. In the FR Setting Lolth was the consort of Corellon and gave birth to his children, that's it and nothing new or retconned. So core does not matter in that case.
3. Lolth was a demon who disguised herself as a goddess in order to seduce Fenmarel Mestarine and, later, Corellon.
Never heard about that theory, where was it stated?
Sure, it is said so in Evermeet, when Kethryllia enters the abyss and fights Haeshkarr. There she meets Kiaransalee (besides, black skinned, white haired) and Lolths got the idea to follow her back to Faerûn to look there for followers like Kiaransalee had at that time some for herself. That was long before the Sundering and creation of the island Evermeet, so long before the Crown Wars.
Interesting. So Kiaransalee leads Lolth to Faerûn? What interest did Kiaransalee have with Toril?
Drow on other planes existed as drow already before the Miyeritari and Ilythiiri of Faerûn were turned into drow too.
Where is that stated?
We know that Kiaransalee wasn't born a drow, because her husband the king "named her" drow when he cast her out. It's possible that part of this was branding her with ebony skin and so forth - or there might be another reason.
Core versions have differed many times from the lore of the FR Setting, so its not new, that it does in the 4Ed too. In the FR Setting Lolth was the consort of Corellon and gave birth to his children, that's it and nothing new or retconned. So core does not matter in that case.
She could be both Corellon's daughter and his consort (as Sehanine is often said to be). I don't think there's anything that definitively rules out the idea that Lolth is related to the other members of the Seldarine.
Never heard about that theory, where was it stated?
Nowhere official. It's just a theory. I'm not sure we can rule it out, either.
4. Lolth was the Beast Lord of spiders.
Oooooh I like this idea. That's something I'd have fun playing with if I ever ran a heavily drow or underdark mixed with planar stuff campaign. Consider me inspired by that one there.
Lolth and spider-beast stuff. Do keep in mind that she was the Weaver of Destiny before she was cast out and that she "wove" a net of intrigue around the Seldarine and Corellon to lay him low. Since spiders weave webs, it was a pretty natural to strike up such a linkage ... but obviously, we should just keep in mind the reality of game designing back in those early years, made for young adult (males): cool looking lasses dominating the males about them, wielding whips and paying hommage to a ghastly female spider-demon look-alike. That has "shoot-first-ask-later" written all over it.
As far as I am concerned, the history as given in DD is good / sufficient enough, supported by the aforementioned novel.
Wouldn't it be Beast Lord of Arachnids instead?
First, arachnids are no beasts, and second, Lolth is a Lady
Did she? What are you basing that on? Her current appearance is that of a drow, but that doesn't mean she was like that in her mortal days.
-Evermeet: Island of the Elves, the meeting in question between Kethryllia Amarillis and Kiaransalee. She appeared as the Drow do today, when the event took place about 15,000 years before the Descent of the Drow, and was called a 'Drow'. Whether you want to chalk the appearance to her not taking her normal guise or not is up to you. That said, there was no specific reason for Kiaransalee to take that form, specifically, nor are there any other entities from Threnody that we have to compare what the Dark Elves of Threnody looked like.
Interesting. So Kiaransalee leads Lolth to Faerûn? What interest did Kiaransalee have with Toril?
-No. Kethryllia Amarillis "led" Lolth to Realmspace. Before Kethryllia Amarillis went to the Abyss to fight the Demon Haeksherr (Sp?), Lolth was unaware of the existence of Realmspace. When Kethryllia Amarillis entered and slew that Demon, Lolth's attention was gained. Rather than slay Kethryllia on the spot, she decided to watch her, and saw her return to Realmspace, a place she had never heard of before, nor did she have a presence there*. She felt Vhaeraun's presence in Realmspace, as well as Corellon Larethian's, and decided that she, too, would become active there, as a way to check Vhaeraun's presence, and counter anything that Corellon Larethian did, to get revenge.
-When Lolth became active in Realmspace, since Kiaransalee was already her "vassal", it is likely that Kiaransalee became active as well, around the same time.
*Ascendancy of the Last includes some brand new information that a temple dedicated to Araushnee exists on Faerûn, that supposedly dates back to about -30,000 DR. This is slightly flawed, however, as it would be impossible for it to really be that old, being as Lolth did not know about Realmspace until a bit before the Sundering, when Kethryllia Amarillis entered into the Abyss, nearly 6,000 years after the temple was supposedly founded. Were Lolth granting people spells, and she herself answering, she would have been aware of it, and her supposed worshipers there. It is likely that, if the temple is actually that old, some other entity was acting as Araushnee.
First, arachnids are no beasts, and second, Lolth is a Lady
Ah, right... well Vermin Lady then? :P
Ah, right... well Vermin Lady then? :P
Spider Queen?
LK ... that temple bit, yes, it was somewhat difficult to place. Not least since dark elves (and the rest) weren't about within Realmspace at the time anyway, the Ilythiiri (acc. to TGHotR) only entered roundabout -27.000 D.R. and "discovered" Araushnee / Lolth much later (-18.000 D.R.?).
Of course, it is always hard to figure out a puzzle that was not even finished in the first place. E.g., the info in Evermeet was not exactly written with exact dates being pinned to every event. It all happened "a long time ago" with the only approximate dates, or rather eras, probably coming from Cormanthyr.
Of course, it is always hard to figure out a puzzle that was not even finished in the first place. E.g., the info in Evermeet was not exactly written with exact dates being pinned to every event. It all happened "a long time ago" with the only approximate dates, or rather eras, probably coming from Cormanthyr.
-The dates are drawn from AGHotR/TGHotR, which, while they do draw from Evermeet: Island of the Elves, make the dates concrete, and fact, rather than "ambiguous hearsay" from the book, because of the whole "the book is a book about writing a book" theme.
but obviously, we should just keep in mind the reality of game designing back in those early years, made for young adult (males):
Looking at most of the pics in the modern books, there seemed nothing to have changed since that early years. :P
Where is that stated
Evermeet, that's where much of the older FR lore about that era is written.
We know that Kiaransalee wasn't born a drow, because her husband the king "named her" drow when he cast her out. It's possible that part of this was branding her with ebony skin and so forth - or there might be another reason.
Never read of that, where is that from?
She could be both Corellon's daughter and his consort (as Sehanine is often said to be). I don't think there's anything that definitively rules out the idea that Lolth is related to the other members of the Seldarine.
Maybe in core stuff, imho nothing to really care about if it contradicts the FR sources. In the Realms lore section it is known that she was a new club member of the Seldarine and came from somewhere else.
Ascendancy of the Last includes some brand new information that a temple dedicated to Araushnee exists on Faerûn, that supposedly dates back to about -30,000 DR.
Was there a date mentioned to it in the novel? Can't remember that detail. I always thought it was only old. Something like a temple back from the earliest times, when drow began to worship Lolth. Maybe the time when Lolth took Ka'Narlist as her consort.
I believe the temple was supposed to have been from before her banishment. I could be wrong... and now I'll have to re-read the books.
-Either way, before or after, Araushnee or Lolth, it still doesn't work out all that well, because Lolth didn't know about Realmspace until -24,000 DR +/-. This comes from Evermeet: Island of the Elves, so if a person wants to take that information with a grain of salt, that's their prerogative. I see no reason to take it not as fact, though, just as plenty of other things presented in the book have been taken at face value as fact. Demihuman Deities says that her attention was drawn "once again" to Abeir-Toril when Kethryllia Amarillis "raided" the Abyss, but makes no mention of when that "first time" was. Evermeet: Island of the Elves "supplants" that, by saying that she didn't know about Realmspace until that raid, and, with the exception of the random piece in Ascendancy of the Last, the information we have already collaborates the concept that Araushnee/Lolth was not active in Realmspace until after Kethryllia's raid. The first mentions of followers in Realmspace that we have come from Ilythiir after Kethryllia Amarillis entered the Abyss. If she had followers, why has there been no mentions of Lolthites before these dates, the source we're talking about not included? Until Ascendancy of the Last included what it did, the first Lolthite was Ka'Narlist of Ilythiir (the first being she "introduced herself" to), around -24,000 DR +/-.
Was there a date mentioned to it in the novel? Can't remember that detail. I always thought it was only old. Something like a temple back from the earliest times, when drow began to worship Lolth. Maybe the time when Lolth took Ka'Narlist as her consort.
-In the novel, no dates are given. In another thread, when that book first came out, I demonstrated how I deduced that age. The temple is specifically mentioned as being dedicated to Araushnee. Araushnee "became" Lolth in -30,000 DR, as per LEoF. Henceforth, from then on, as per Demihuman Deities, she became Lolth. The followers who we have seen following her, in all sources, Forgotten Realms and non-Forgotten Realms, call her Lolth. To make a long story short, things after her "fall", have honored her as Lolth, without fail, and not Araushnee. For what reason would this one be dedicated to her as Araushnee (something slightly heretical, too, I am sure, and we have evidence, in DD, of how Lolth treats heretics), if not it was made while she was still Araushnee? And, if this is the case, it brings us to the problem I mentioned earlier, about Lolth not discovering Realmspace until -24,000 DR +/-.
Evermeet, that's where much of the older FR lore about that era is written.
I really had no idea what that book was even about, so bear with my ignorance, please; I'm trying to figure out how much of the speculation in this thread comes from that book, and how much is simply speculation.
ever read of that, where is that from?
Demihuman Deities, page 23. "Kiaransalee was once mortal, a powerful dark elven necromancer-queen on a world known as Threnody. The Revenancer was named drow and banished by her husband, the king of Threnody, for her unholy experiments on the once-living."
The phrase "named drow" implies that she wasn't a drow before then, although she was a dark elf. The word "drow" was originally the Elven dhaeraow, which means "face of shadow," "heart of night," and "traitor." It seems to me that Kiaransalee was simply branded with the name "traitor."
It's possible that some magic worked on her at that time changed her skin from brown to ebon-black and her hair to white, although Demihuman Deities doesn't suggest this. She might have changed her appearance later on.
Because of the circumstances surrounding Kiaransalee's banishment, I would guess that there wasn't any actual drow "race" at this time; that being "named drow" was something the elves of Threnody did to individual criminals, since this is what happened in Kiaransalee's case.
There were definitely dark elves on Threnody, but it seems they weren't all drow in the modern sense - probably they had the brown skin and dark hair of the pre-curse ssri-tel'quessir. Kiaransalee wasn't named drow until she was banished. Kiaransalee's husband the king might have been a dark elf as well, or he might not have been.
In the Realms lore section it is known that she was a new club member of the Seldarine and came from somewhere else.
What makes you say this?
What makes you say this?
Evermeet again ;) Was or still is one of the best sources for the early times of elves and the struggle with "their" gods on Faerûn. But as LK said, the problem was that the novel never gave exact dates and some later sources like Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, the Evermeet sourcebook and the Grand History were the first to give them (with all the problems we have now, when other authors make their own things out of it without looking too much into other sourcebooks).
In the novel, no dates are given. In another thread, when that book first came out, I demonstrated how I deduced that age.
Now you mentioned it, I think I have read that of you before. Thinking of it this way creates that problem. The only thing I can think of to solve that a bit may (a big may) be laying in her old time with the Seldarine. This temple could be from the time when she was still a Seldarine. Then, when she was made tanar'ri, that stripped somehow her "godly" link to all the places where she was worshipped before and therefore she somehow forgot the worlds of her elven worshippers or stopped to care for them and the places where she had her temples.
Evermeet (the novel again :D ) seems to indicate something like that. It says she was so busy to carve out her own realm and becoming a kind of queen in the abyss that she seemed not to think about getting mortal worshippers on other marterial planes until the day Kethryllia and Kiaransalee seemed to remind her about this praxis to get godhood again.
Well I know that theory has its flaws too, but for me it rescues the strange situation a little bit. The biggest problem is that the temple did not have statues of the Araushnee as she was looking like in her seldarine days but such how she looked like a spider demon thing. With another big maybe, she may have reused the temple when she later came back as Lolth and it got this updated statues at that time.
The second thing would be, maybe she really used her name Araushnee for a while in her early years with Ka'Narlist and his Ilythiiri. But why she later abandoned it will stay unkown. I would not think of it as heresy, if drow used the name. If it would be, she would have made her followers not have known of it. I mean this T'lar remembers instantly that Araushnee was the old name of Lolth. Where did she get that, if it would have to be forgotten and not used by any drow? I think it is still one of the names drow can use for her without being heretic, but not the most accepted and too often used title.
I believe the temple was supposed to have been from before her banishment. I could be wrong... and now I'll have to re-read the books.
That's what Shem described as "muddied" in another thread. It is hardly conceivable that Lolth was venerated as Araushnee on Toril, since she changed her name (and "abhored" it in later lore) long before she started her plots on Toril and any dark elves actually arriving there. This info was subtly changed by LP III ... and what is worst about it is the fact that (like so many interesting parts in the LP series) it is not expanded upon in other publications. And most likely never will be.
Now you mentioned it, I think I have read that of you before. Thinking of it this way creates that problem. The only thing I can think of to solve that a bit may (a big may) be laying in her old time with the Seldarine. This temple could be from the time when she was still a Seldarine. Then, when she was made tanar'ri, that stripped somehow her "godly" link to all the places where she was worshipped before and therefore she somehow forgot the worlds of her elven worshippers or stopped to care for them and the places where she had her temples.
Evermeet (the novel again :D ) seems to indicate something like that. It says she was so busy to carve out her own realm and becoming a kind of queen in the abyss that she seemed not to think about getting mortal worshippers on other marterial planes until the day Kethryllia and Kiaransalee seemed to remind her about this praxis to get godhood again.
Well I know that theory has its flaws too, but for me it rescues the strange situation a little bit. The biggest problem is that the temple did not have statues of the Araushnee as she was looking like in her seldarine days but such how she looked like a spider demon thing. With another big maybe, she may have reused the temple when she later came back as Lolth and it got this updated statues at that time.
-The problem with this hypothesis is that, according to Evermeet: Island of the Elves, supported by Lolth's lack of activity in Realmspace at the time, Lolth did not even know of Realmspace, and was not active there. I see it being a contradiction for Lolth to have had worshipers on Abeir-Toril worshiping her (as Araushnee) circa -30,000 DR (a few thousand years before the first Elves came to Abeir-Toril) and then first discovering Realmspace for herself circa -24,000 DR. If she had worshipers, she'd know of the place (even if she ignored those worshipers, and didn't grant them spells or anything else). One way that works out is if some other entity was masquerading as Araushnee/Lolth. Perhaps it was Zanassu the Spider Demon, which would explain some of the animosity between him and Lolth, asides for being both being in the Abyss and liking spiders.
The second thing would be, maybe she really used her name Araushnee for a while in her early years with Ka'Narlist and his Ilythiiri. But why she later abandoned it will stay unkown. I would not think of it as heresy, if drow used the name. If it would be, she would have made her followers not have known of it. I mean this T'lar remembers instantly that Araushnee was the old name of Lolth. Where did she get that, if it would have to be forgotten and not used by any drow? I think it is still one of the names drow can use for her without being heretic, but not the most accepted and too often used title.
-It is a possibility, that she used her "true" name of Araushnee, instead of Lolth. My question would be, why? This is, as far as I can remember, the only case of Lolthites worshiping Lolth as Araushnee- another factoid that "raises a flag" about the whole situation, not necessarily as wrong, but as weird, and needed further thought applied to the matter, to determine what is/was going on.
This info was subtly changed by LP III ... and what is worst about it is the fact that (like so many interesting parts in the LP series) it is not expanded upon in other publications. And most likely never will be.
-It was barely changed in Ascendancy of the Last! I don't want to say it was a "throwaway sentence", since it has been a few months since I read the book, but I remember the author being very...offhanded in mentioning the temple and who it was dedicated to, like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, details, details, details, bear with me a few more lines, and we'll get back to the plot." I don't know if that was the intent, but that's the vibe I got from reading it. And, as those who know the relevant lore know, those lines either present a continuity error, or radically change the history of Lolth and her activity, and Dark Elves in Realmspace in those "early years".