My question is, how have the mortals of Faerun handled all this divine turmoil. A number of church's deities have died, several have changed dramatically, and the vibe given by the FRPG and FRCG seems to be that somehow the churches have already settled down within the century that followed this turmoil. What happens to an FR church when their deity dies is killed? How does a church handle their deity changing alignment, like Hoar's change from Lawful Neutral to Evil when he started serving Bane, or when their deity is revealed to be someone else, like Talos when he revealed he was really Gruumsh. I can't imagine that the fallout from events like these only took a century to sort themselves out!
-With a lot of this stuff, as you were alluding to, in a "game world", you can hand wave it all away, citing a hundred years as plenty of time for things to change however you want them to, and give some examples of extreme changes here, and very subtle changes there. From my point of view, a whole bunch of radical changes went on, all of which (most of which) should have had dire and extreme repercussions on the people of Faerûn.
On a side note, people pay WAY too much attention to the deities in the FR and not enough to the more... terrestrial things of the world. Just my two unwanted cents.
I concur with Karsus. A century has elapsed and people would have largely gotten over that kind of religious turmoil--particularly in a world where the Gods manifest their power openly.
-My point/opinion was that people would NOT have "largely gotten over that kind of religious turmoil".
Some might go nuts, if they were that zealot-y about it, but that would be a distinct minority.
Or heck, since most people don't get anything concrete out of their worship (no powers, etc), they might just go on continuing to worship the dead god. Heck, they may not even KNOW the god died.
Many of the changes don't really even matter. Selune is Sehanine Moonbow? Really, to Elven worshipers you have it backwards. A whole lot of the changes work better if you don't default into the idea of people talking directly in person to a physical manifestation of their god. This also has the side effect of making Churches as Organizations much more interesting and formidable. You don't get daily reports from your copilot. Your Church Hierarchy might be riddled with heretics. More storylines that the common lay worshiper need know nothing about, as you war in the shadows to preserve the sanctity of your church.
-My point/opinion was that people would NOT have "largely gotten over that kind of religious turmoil".
ah, sorry for misreading you.
but I'll stick to my point. in the chaos of the spellplague, people would have given up worshipping gods who no longer existed and turned to those whose clerics could continue to provide protection. most would have done this quickly and with a fervor.
are there psychopaths in the hills still worshiping Talos? probably. but they were always psychopaths, marginal and unimportant (save as threats) to the vast majority of people.
the more mainline gods that were tossed into the dustbin of history--i would imagine that they were abandoned quickly, their temples and priests converted over to the still living faiths.
moreover, this was all a century past. the Stormlords or Helmites are all dead or gone over to other faiths.
ah, sorry for misreading you.
but I'll stick to my point. in the chaos of the spellplague, people would have given up worshipping gods who no longer existed and turned to those whose clerics could continue to provide protection. most would have done this quickly and with a fervor.
-Why? Mind you, I'm not "attacking" any particular religions, but Christians worship an individual who died circa 2,000 years ago, who hasn't appeared since with conclusive, scientific, proof. Jews, G-d is a metaphysical entity throughout, but the ancient patrons of the religion are looked upon with reverence and all of that. Islam, same thing with Christianity, but circa 1,500 years or so. Buddhism? Buddha isn't the Buddhist version of G-d, per se, but Buddha died over 2,500 years ago, and his "worship" is still going good. The difference is that here, we don't have conclusive, scientific proof that a deity/deities exist, and, if they did, which one/ones. With that aside, however, people have been worshiping and revering beings that don't answer their prayers with conclusive, scientific proof for thousands of years, and it doesn't necessarily appear that religion is going to suddenly disappear tomorrow.
-In the Forgotten Realms, plenty of deities have died, and have had their worshipers continue worshiping them. Moander and Liera are good examples here. In the Forgotten Realms, plenty of deities have temporarily abandoned their followers, but their followers continued following them (for X amount of time). Lolth and Waukeen are both good examples here.
You're also attempting to apply RL historical information to a fantasy world, which just doesn't work in general.
On the other hand, due to FR's cosmology, we do have definitive, conclusive proof (apparently) that gods can die. And when you know your god is dead, why bother continuing to kiss up to it?
-Precedence demonstrates that people of Abeir-Toril do, with the aforementioned examples. Why would this suddenly change?
-Why? Mind you, I'm not "attacking" any particular religions, but Christians worship an individual who died circa 2,000 years ago, who hasn't appeared since with conclusive, scientific, proof. Jews, G-d is a metaphysical entity throughout, but the ancient patrons of the religion are looked upon with reverence and all of that. Islam, same thing with Christianity, but circa 1,500 years or so. Buddhism? Buddha isn't the Buddhist version of G-d, per se, but Buddha died over 2,500 years ago, and his "worship" is still going good. The difference is that here, we don't have conclusive, scientific proof that a deity/deities exist, and, if they did, which one/ones. With that aside, however, people have been worshiping and revering beings that don't answer their prayers with conclusive, scientific proof for thousands of years, and it doesn't necessarily appear that religion is going to suddenly disappear tomorrow.
-In the Forgotten Realms, plenty of deities have died, and have had their worshipers continue worshiping them. Moander and Liera are good examples here. In the Forgotten Realms, plenty of deities have temporarily abandoned their followers, but their followers continued following them (for X amount of time). Lolth and Waukeen are both good examples here.
But here's the difference--in the FR, Divine Power is literally and visibly expressed in the world. This is a place where priests can heal people by laying on their hands, or raise the dead, or smite villainy by channeling the divine. In RL, worship is based on Faith, which often has a stunning lack of any objective proof.
Here's the crux of the matter: if the difference between Temple A and Temple B is that the guys in Temple A can heal my child by touching her and the guys in Temple B tell me to pray, I'm going to Temple A.
In the Chaos of the Spellplague, people are going to go over to the churches that can protect them. After the Spellplague, they are going to stay with those churches because they can continue to provide benefits for being members. The Churches of the Dead Gods? They don't offer anywhere near the benefits for their members that the living faiths do. They'd lose worshippers like rats scurrying off a sinking ship.
In the FR, proof of the divine is there. It's visible. Anyone can see it.
And given that Helm can't protect anyone anymore, there aren't going to be Helmites in numbers--they'll have gone over to other churches that can provide benefit.
Yes, there probably are the oddballs out in the hills--in some abandoned monastery, or a tiny community that still holds onto some whisp of faith in a god who will never return. But these are the outliers--just like Moander's cultists and Leira's followers were outliers.
How do four established churches just dissapear after their deities are killed. Mystra's death was the biggest catastrophe the Realms have ever suffered! Surely her church, and the churches of Azuth, Velsharoon and Savras would have had something to say about it!
-The status of insane, fringe, cultist fanatic cannot be ascribed to every followers of Moander after he died, of Liera after she died, of Vhaeraun after he died, of Amaunator after he "went dormant", of Auppenser after he "went dormant", and so on and so on and so on...
Insane fanatics? No. Fringe cultists? Yeah.
Dead gods cannot compete in the marketplace of religions with those gods who are able to grant their mortal followers divine power. Will some people stick to their guns? of course. but will they be mainstream anymore? nope.
A century after the death of Helm, one wouldn't expect to see his clerics, and if one did see a Helmite, it would be a rare and sad event.
Could a party come across such a man? yeah. But he'd be old, odd, or a stubborn as the rocks he crawled out of dwarf.
You say conversion to a compatible god is a possiblity, but I don't see how the clerics of the gods of magic could do such a thing. No one was able to step up to the plate after Mystra was killed. Azuth fell into the Nine Hells, where Asmodeus ate him, Velsharoon crashlanded in Rashemen, I believe, and died on impact, and Savras was likely destroyed when Dweomerheart collapsed. That's four churches all orphaned at once, and a lot of people. Who the heck would the convert to?! Did they all just implode when their god died? No! It's been proven that that doesn't happen. Just look at Bane, the comeback king of Faerun.
How do four established churches just dissapear after their deities are killed. Mystra's death was the biggest catastrophe the Realms have ever suffered! Surely her church, and the churches of Azuth, Velsharoon and Savras would have had something to say about it!
What power would the churches of the Magic Gods have anymore? They can't cast spells--but those fellows talking about the Moon Goddess certainly can.
Selune would take over the neutral and goodly aligned folk, and Shar, Cyric, and Bane would get the others.
It's good that you mentioned Bane, because his comeback is a good example of what a living God can do to his faithful. Iyachtu Xvim had captured the hearts and minds of Banites in his war against Cyric, yet in just a single night, the whole of the Baneson's church went over to Bane once more. No holdouts, no theological discussions--wholesale conversion in just one night.
Why would Selune not do something similar to Mystra's church, once it was left rudderless?
It's important to understand that people often don't convert to a church because they believe in its message--they do so in order to gain some kind of benefit. Greeks converted to Islam in order to be soldiers and nobles, for instance... Romans converted to Christianity because the Christians were nursing people during the various plagues.
In the Realms, that benefit is MAGICAL HEALING. If I used to go to the Temple of Helm for when my animals get sick or my workers get hurt and they can't help me anymore I will go down the street to the Church of Ilmater. Helm and his people simply cannot help me anymore--I get no benefit from them that Ilmater's people cannot provide, and Ilmater's people can save the lives of the people that I care about.
And I thought the whole point of a religion was because you believe in their belief system, that you believe that their doctrines and edicts show the way to lead a moral life, and a belief that that god will be there to protect and heal you in your times of need. "The two sets of footprints are when we walked side-by-side, the one set of footprints are when I carried you."
;).Why would the good aligned Mystrans convert to Selune?
And I thought the whole point of a religion was because you believe in their belief system, that you believe that their doctrines and edicts show the way to lead a moral life, and a belief that that god will be there to protect and heal you in your times of need. "The two sets of footprints are when we walked side-by-side, the one set of footprints are when I carried you."
Selune was just an example. People would choose the church that they thought they could get the most benefit from--sticking with some dead god gives no benefit at all.
But couldn't their collective belief bring her back?
I don't thinks so in the "canon" world but you can always havew her come back in your world.
Why would the good aligned Mystrans convert to Selune?
And I thought the whole point of a religion was because you believe in their belief system, that you believe that their doctrines and edicts show the way to lead a moral life, and a belief that that god will be there to protect and heal you in your times of need. "The two sets of footprints are when we walked side-by-side, the one set of footprints are when I carried you."
Nice thread topic!
In reading here, it seems like there are two currents going in this thread. One is an inquiry into how FR mortals would deal or have dealt with the deities' deaths and disappearances. The other is shock that the current canon says none of the mortals batted an eyelash and everything is perfectly fine now. I disagree with the premise of the latter, and if it's refuted it makes suggestions about the former more palatable. In other words, saying "many Mystrans took Selune as their new patron" is much different than saying "many Mystrans took Selune as their new patron and that solved everything." I don't think canon equates to the latter.
More on the current canon issue
FRCG pg. 130 states "Though confusion accompanied the revelations that Hanali Celanil was in fact the elven aspect of the goddess Sune and that Aerdrie Faenya was none other than the primordial Akadi, the worship of the goddess of beauty and the Lord of Sky Home are still major parts of life in Evereska." The worship hasn't fallen away, but it doesn't mean nothing changed. The following page discusses the priests of Hanali Celanil opening the gate to Arvandor. There is no doubt in my mind that this had a great effect on the priests, et al, but it simply remains a story to be told in a novel or in your gaming session. The delivery is extremely bare, and I understand that it's a big change from previous presentations of Realmslore--AND I'm not arguing that it's better or worse--, but the actual content of the passage is "there was confusion." The devs have left the choice of how relevant that confusion is to our campaigns completely in our hands. So saying that current canon is "unbelievable" when "current canon" on this issue is essentially up to us doesn't really take us anywhere. (It does, however, lend some credence to the old adage that "It's not what you say, it's how you say it!" :P )
FRPG pg. 59 discusses the Morninglord paragon path. "Amaunator is still a dignified god of immense age, but he remembers his youth, and he encourages his followers to do the same...As a Morninglord, you are the champion of your god's youth." Again, yes, it paints a VERY broad stroke over the entire issue and the church, but there is plenty of open space to maneuver. What's funny is in this particular instance, even if we assume the church is perfectly settled down now, it's totally plausible. Seriously! Who better to (forgive the pun) see the bright side of things than the Lathanderites?? :D
FRPG pg. 59 discusses the Morninglord paragon path. "Amaunator is still a dignified god of immense age, but he remembers his youth, and he encourages his followers to do the same...As a Morninglord, you are the champion of your god's youth." Again, yes, it paints a VERY broad stroke over the entire issue and the church, but there is plenty of open space to maneuver. What's funny is in this particular instance, even if we assume the church is perfectly settled down now, it's totally plausible. Seriously! Who better to (forgive the pun) see the bright side of things than the Lathanderites?? :D
On a side note, people pay WAY too much attention to the deities in the FR and not enough to the more... terrestrial things of the world. Just my two unwanted cents.
I would change the word 'people' to 'author/designers', and then that would be one of the truest statements you could possibly make about FR.
What the hell does a conflict between divine beings in the outer planes have to do with me running my 5th level Thief? The novels are useless, and only damage the game-world be their irrelevance.
As a DM, what I would do is keep those gods you loved and put some old statues and relics into the vaults of churches of the 15th century realms. The depictions of the tragic stories of their toils could adorn the glassstained panelled windows, and sermons would harken back to the messages of the old dogmas through examples of the old gods exploits.
Tormites for example will likely still use the innumerate codexi compiled by former Tyrran judges to form their own convictions. Selunes churches will likely be able to grow away from its obscurity by starting to preach and build in the considerable amount of former Mystran cathedrals. Talosian folk will have a hard time getting their churches to maintain control in human dominated areas when they are not afraid of Gruumsh's threats.
The physical holdings of the past gods will stand as proof of the foundations laid by the fearunian pantheons of old. If you really have to you can also say some of those holdings have been transposed to Abeir though...
On a side note, people pay WAY too much attention to the deities in the FR and not enough to the more... terrestrial things of the world.
People in the setting, or outside of it?
I think for the average person in Faerun thinks more about the secular, mundane aspects of their lives than what's going on with the gods. Also, the average person is not at all privy to what goes on with the gods the way we (outside the setting) are.
On the other hand, due to FR's cosmology, we do have definitive, conclusive proof (apparently) that gods can die. And when you know your god is dead, why bother continuing to kiss up to it?
See above--does everyone in the Realms get a heavenly (hellish?) memo when their deity dies?
Churches to dead gods could easily be adapted to house the followers of dieties still living. An open church with no divine power fueling it will stand no chance of stopping an active clergy who can channel the divinity of their god from redecorating their homes to the new standards.
As a DM, what I would do is keep those gods you loved and put some old statues and relics into the vaults of churches of the 15th century realms. The depictions of the tragic stories of their toils could adorn the glassstained panelled windows, and sermons would harken back to the messages of the old dogmas through examples of the old gods exploits.
Tormites for example will likely still use the innumerate codexi compiled by former Tyrran judges to form their own convictions. Selunes churches will likely be able to grow away from its obscurity by starting to preach and build in the considerable amount of former Mystran cathedrals. Talosian folk will have a hard time getting their churches to maintain control in human dominated areas when they are not afraid of Gruumsh's threats.
The physical holdings of the past gods will stand as proof of the foundations laid by the fearunian pantheons of old. If you really have to you can also say some of those holdings have been transposed to Abeir though...
I think this is the ideal approach. It provides connections to players who were connected (for whatever reason) to a now deceased deity, which is good for players.
It also makes a bit of sense--successful deities would have brought the flocks of now-defunct deities into their churches... particularly some of their clergy.
To compete with other churches for new worshippers, strategies would have been adopted to make churches more appealing to the soon-to-be-ex followers of now-dead gods. Your solution is both elegant and appealing.
Uh, according to what I heard, when Mystra died there was this thing called "The Spellplague" that killed all the mages or drove them totally bonkers, and made Neverwinter go up like Hiroshima.
Are you talking to me?
If so, I'd respond by saying what happened with Mystra was atypical to say the least.
Also, I'd note that Faerun does not have the internet or a global news media.
What about those who turned out to be someone else? Like Talos worshipers who find that they've been worshiping the god of orcs all this time. Or the elves who worshiped Sehanine Moonbow who learn they've been worshiping a human god? Or the worshipers of Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, Isthia and Ubtao, whom we'ver learned are actually Primordials, beings dedicated to entropy and destruction?
Gruumsh is not an Orc. Gruumsh is a god.
Moradin is not a Dwarf. Moradin is a God.
Corellon is not an Elf. Corellon is a God.
so on, so forth, etc.
Spells don't come from gods - they copme from within. Its a worshipper own faith that generates the energy for the spell. They lose aith, they loe their spells - but the god has very little to do with it.
They just want you to think they do.
Thats why Fiend-cults work - no one is really granting anyone anything. In fact, I forget which designer it was, but he had said that a person could literally worship "a potted plant, as long as they took the Feat for worshipping 'non-active' deities (dead, or whatever - basically he said he called the feat the "Potted Plant Feat").
Ergo, assume being a priest of a god automatically grants this Feat, so long as the priest keeps his faith. All the 'non-Feat' does is allow you to access your 'inner magic', commonly known as 'divine magic'.
Religions are a lie (inD&D) - Mortals don't need gods, gods need THEM.
And thats why its the best-kept secret in the cosmos. ;)
Gruumsh is not an Orc. Gruumsh is a god.
Moradin is not a Dwarf. Moradin is a God.
Corellon is not an Elf. Corellon is a God.
so on, so forth, etc.
That actually is the PERECT way to look at it - 'God' is a race. :D
When mortals 'ascend', their physical forms are burned away, leaving pure energy (Godhood). After that, they can chose to manifest in any form they like.
Moradin is a god OF DWARVES.
Corellon is a god OF ELVES.
It doesn't matter what a god is but who worships them. No human is going to worship Corellon because he's the patron of elves, and only has time for them. No half-elf would worship Gruumsh because his first tenet is the supremacy of the orcish race. People don't worship gods who are patrons of a race other than theirs.
For better or worse, thats how it stands.
Gruumsh is a god OF ORCS.
Moradin is a god OF DWARVES.
Corellon is a god OF ELVES.
It doesn't matter what a god is but who worships them. No human is going to worship Corellon because he's the patron of elves, and only has time for them. No half-elf would worship Gruumsh because his first tenet is the supremacy of the orcish race. People don't worship gods who are patrons of a race other than theirs.
The books disagree with you. In fact, im sure they explicitly state that gods are not humans, or elves or dwarves or any mortal race. Whatever they were before they are Gods now, and every god has followers of every race, even the ones formerly consider 'racial' deities. Gruumsh is a god of destruction now, not a god of orcs.
The concept of 'patron races' has been done away with in 4e.
For better or worse, thats how it stands.
Better, definitely better.
While I would create one (dis-unified) pantheon for my own homebrew world, I had grown accustomed to FR's set-up, and disliked that it was changed so drastically.
It breaks 'the fourth wall' in a manner of speaking. Too many retcons like that and fans lose their immersive connection to the setting.
However, for anything but FR, I prefer it that way, and would create my own world's gods along those lines - certain gods would appeal more to certain races, but no god would be racially specific.
It does make sene for recently ascended mortals to still feel a powerful connection to their mortal race... but tht would fade with the centuries.
I'm still trying to figure out why the hell Mystra and Shar looked human... shouldn't they ahve ooked like Sarrukh, or one of the other Creator races?
Anyhow, that how I feel, if anyone cares.
I don't think any ONE of the 4e changes made were that bad, but it was the sheer number of them, all at once, and the way that many of them were left unexplained, that has left most of the fanbase just scratching it's head.
How is an uncreative philistine like myself supposed to roleplay a religious character properly when 4e seems to be taking the Realms in a decidedly secular direction?!
the world has changed. your characters should change with it.
Furthermore, what are the holy texts of Tormish worship? What does a common prayer to Selune sound like? What rites do Tempus worshipers perform before battle? The books don't tell.
The information any 4e book gives about religion appears to be intentionally vague, and that kind of vagueness ruins roleplaying when you try to roleplay a worshiper of a particular deity and you screw up because the book doesn't provide enough information to build the character around!
Sure, the world has changed, but the books sure as heck aren't telling me HOW they've changed! How am I supposed to properly roleplay, say a Lathander worshiper when he becomes Amaunator? Should I roleplay him as shocked? Pleasantly surprised? Indifferent? The books don't tell. How would one properly roleplay a Banite? Relieved that despite all the turmoil my god has stayed the same? Angry at the loss of the church's power with the crippling of the Zhentarim? The books don't tell.
How did you do it before? All these questions are questions that have come up in the past and had no official support until Faiths and Pantheons. Nothing suggests that anything has changed for those Gods who still exist in their original form. For those gods who don't, well unless you survived through the entire time of the Spellplague how is any of this going to matter, you grew up knowing the gods that are not the gods that were.
Furthermore, what are the holy texts of Tormish worship? What does a common prayer to Selune sound like? What rites do Tempus worshipers perform before battle? The books don't tell.
Did the books ever? Did we really have samples of a prayer to Selune, or the exact rites of Tempus?
The information any 4e book gives about religion appears to be intentionally vague, and that kind of vagueness ruins roleplaying when you try to roleplay a worshiper of a particular deity and you screw up because the book doesn't provide enough information to build the character around!
It is intentionally vague so the DM, you know the individual who should be giving you your answers in relation to his/her realms, has latitude without preconception of how he wants to depict the gods in the campaign. I know for instance the default has always been "the Gods walk the land", they are present and knowable, where as in my realms I have always made them mysterious even to their most devout clergy. Shar does not stop by and have a chat. Mystra does not have a posse. Bane does not rant to his head priest. It could be argued that this was supported before, but the details were there for the default, but the details never came until supplements, they were never a part of the base setting information, at least not in the detail you would like.
So what is the solution? I would say sit down with your DM and ask them these questions, because clearly it is going to differ from game to game, and any suggestions or answers given here are not going to necessarily fly at the table you are playing at.
I'd want to see a Mount Celestia article first. Torms clergy has ties to lots of older clergies situated on that plane, and the new structure there would be reflected by the attitudes within the clergies on Toril.
How did you do it before? All these questions are questions that have come up in the past and had no official support until Faiths and Pantheons. Nothing suggests that anything has changed for those Gods who still exist in their original form. For those gods who don't, well unless you survived through the entire time of the Spellplague how is any of this going to matter, you grew up knowing the gods that are not the gods that were.
I didn't do it before. I didn't get interested in Forgotten Realms until I purchased the Neverwinter Nights games a year or two ago, and I didn't buy any of the 3.5 FR books. I've only recently joined a 4e FR game, and that's Living Forgotten Realms where roleplay seems to be thrown out the window so you can play through the modules quickly and efficiently.
Did the books ever? Did we really have samples of a prayer to Selune, or the exact rites of Tempus?
I don't know, I never bought Faiths and Pantheons!
It is intentionally vague so the DM, you know the individual who should be giving you your answers in relation to his/her realms, has latitude without preconception of how he wants to depict the gods in the campaign. I know for instance the default has always been "the Gods walk the land", they are present and knowable, where as in my realms I have always made them mysterious even to their most devout clergy. Shar does not stop by and have a chat. Mystra does not have a posse. Bane does not rant to his head priest. It could be argued that this was supported before, but the details were there for the default, but the details never came until supplements, they were never a part of the base setting information, at least not in the detail you would like.
So what is the solution? I would say sit down with your DM and ask them these questions, because clearly it is going to differ from game to game, and any suggestions or answers given here are not going to necessarily fly at the table you are playing at.
The DM for the FR game in changes depending on how many people are there and how much time we have to play. As I said, the only 4e FR game I've found is the Living Forgotten Realms with the local RPGA group. We have to move at a lightning quick pace to get through the module before the store closes, so we don't have any time for roleplaying stuff like that. It's all kick in the door hack n' slash, which I personally find unsatisfying.
WotC could really redeem themselves by releasing more DDi articles on each specific gods, their domains and spheres of influence. But thats a long road to take.
I'd want to see a Mount Celestia article first. Torms clergy has ties to lots of older clergies situated on that plane, and the new structure there would be reflected by the attitudes within the clergies on Toril.
That's all well and good for people who have DDi, but what about people like me who can't afford a subscription and their parents won't let them get one anyway?
Afterwards I'd try asking the lovely Hooded One in Candlekeep for additional detailed descriptions of the activities of clergy members.
Sure, the world has changed, but the books sure as heck aren't telling me HOW they've changed! How am I supposed to properly roleplay, say a Lathander worshiper when he becomes Amaunator? Should I roleplay him as shocked? Pleasantly surprised? Indifferent? The books don't tell. How would one properly roleplay a Banite? Relieved that despite all the turmoil my god has stayed the same? Angry at the loss of the church's power with the crippling of the Zhentarim? The books don't tell.
Furthermore, what are the holy texts of Tormish worship? What does a common prayer to Selune sound like? What rites do Tempus worshipers perform before battle? The books don't tell.
The information any 4e book gives about religion appears to be intentionally vague, and that kind of vagueness ruins roleplaying when you try to roleplay a worshiper of a particular deity and you screw up because the book doesn't provide enough information to build the character around!
You role play it how you feel it is appropriate. The books don't need to tell spell everything out for you.
You role play it how you feel it is appropriate. The books don't need to tell spell everything out for you.
Exactly right. Use your imagination.
But don't deities speak to their favored followers?
Not usually in any kind of direct manner. And also, it's hard to speak to your followers if you just died.
And I think a few million clerics and paladins would notice that their powers ain't working anymore the minute their deity bites it.
Not necessarily, considering that deities are known to sneakily step in and continue granting spells under the guise of a newly deceased deity.;)
Gruumsh is not an Orc. Gruumsh is a god.
Moradin is not a Dwarf. Moradin is a God.
Corellon is not an Elf. Corellon is a God.
so on, so forth, etc.
Right, and this concept has been emphasized in 4E.
I know for instance the default has always been "the Gods walk the land", they are present and knowable...
No, "the Gods walk the land" has never been the default--if it was, the Time of Troubles would have just been an everyday occurance rather than an atypical once-in-history event.
No, "the Gods walk the land" has never been the default--if it was, the Time of Troubles would have just been an everyday occurance rather than an atypical once-in-history event.
I did not say all the Gods decide to establish residence in the FR and party, that was ToT. Appearances of the Gods are sprinkled throughout the novel lines, not just the time of troubles. While not something that happens everyday, a worshipper having a direct encounter with their god is not impossible. A Cleric being spoken to directly by their god, is expected. The Gods do walk the land at their pleasure no one said they stay around for any length of time.
I'm wondering if I could roleplay a paladin or something who may or may not be deluded in thinking that he's Helm reborn and eventually taking the Demigod ED to assume Helm's former position as the new Helm. :fight!:
-I am, too. Go and do it, and let me know if I was right or not in what I was thinking the answer is.
I'll see if I can make a new character at my next RPGA game this Saturday.
-Oh, right. RPGA. That might make it a little more difficult, then. But, still...
So...I suppose what I've realliy been trying to say in this thread is this. Is religion just not as big of an issue in Faerun anymore? I feel so bewildered with everything that's changed, and I feel like I need something stable to help get my bearings.
Well, my RPGA game was today, and I couldn't make a new character. The rest of the group was in a bit of a hurry to start and didn't want to wait while I made a new character that they figured was pretty much identical to my current character (that drow paladin of Amaunator I asked about a while back). Nuts.
So...I suppose what I've realliy been trying to say in this thread is this. Is religion just not as big of an issue in Faerun anymore? I feel so bewildered with everything that's changed, and I feel like I need something stable to help get my bearings.
it's important, but only if you want it to be.
which, shockingly, is just like old Faerun.
So...I suppose what I've realliy been trying to say in this thread is this. Is religion just not as big of an issue in Faerun anymore? I feel so bewildered with everything that's changed, and I feel like I need something stable to help get my bearings.
-I would think that it would be more important, as a whole, than it used to. You know the concept how, in times of trouble, people turn more often to prayer and stuff? Well, yeah, that. Maybe for certain races, it might not- like Humans for example. Tragedies that happened 104 years ago, I don't think there's anyone mourning them anymore. For longer-lived races, I think this would be the case, though. For an Elf, 100 years is more like 10 years, and I know that there's lots of people still mourning 9/11, which was almost ten years ago now (Wow. Time really flies.).
-I would think that it would be more important, as a whole, than it used to. You know the concept how, in times of trouble, people turn more often to prayer and stuff? Well, yeah, that. Maybe for certain races, it might not- like Humans for example. Tragedies that happened 104 years ago, I don't think there's anyone mourning them anymore. For longer-lived races, I think this would be the case, though. For an Elf, 100 years is more like 10 years, and I know that there's lots of people still mourning 9/11, which was almost ten years ago now (Wow. Time really flies.).
And yet the developers have not given any description of how things have changed religion-wise, nor have they offered any kind of justification for what changes have been made.
In other news, we had a new player at the RPGA game. He made a rogue that worshiped Pelor. I insisted that you couldn't do that, since Amaunator (MY CHARACTER'S GOD!) and not Pelor is the Faerunian sun god. No one listened to me because they'd already waited for the new guy to finish his sheet and wanted to get under way with the module. I know fluff and continuity aren't exactly major concerns for Living Forgotten Realms, but you can't just violate canon like that! THE CANON IS THE LAW!!!
Gruumsh is a god OF ORCS.
Moradin is a god OF DWARVES.
Corellon is a god OF ELVES.
It doesn't matter what a god is but who worships them. No human is going to worship Corellon because he's the patron of elves, and only has time for them. No half-elf would worship Gruumsh because his first tenet is the supremacy of the orcish race. People don't worship gods who are patrons of a race other than theirs.
Humans worship Corellon. I think Khelben is in Arvandor and that may be due to some form of worship of some sort. Even if you ignore that I am sure that there were/are humans or other humanoids who worship deities that might be seen as a racial pantheon.
I still think that their would be clergy of Talos roaming about. Some people may not want to give up the Talos concept and since Grumm will probably be getting power from Talos worship he won't really come down and tell the clergy otherwise.
Perhaps the guy in that RPGA game was taught about the sungod but whoever taught it to him was from a different region and Pelor was the name they followed. Sort of like how christianity or other religions fragment and take on a life of their own with new saints and holy days. In the end the concept is the same but the names get changed. Allah, Yaweh(sp?), God ect...
Even the 3E stuff was pretty light on the Church info IMO.
This is a RPG game. The only true laws and rules of it are in the will and imagination of the players. Every pc you are roleplaying should be different so every follower thinks differently. You are roleplaying a character 100 years after the changes have taken place. Lathander is not the norm now, but Aumnester (sp?) is. So you should not be shocked or stunned. If you met a Lathanderite or a Pelorite (just let's say it fits into FR) then you would view them as an oddity since most worshipers of the sun/light god are following Ausepners ways.
Why would the good aligned Mystrans convert to Selune?
And I thought the whole point of a religion was because you believe in their belief system, that you believe that their doctrines and edicts show the way to lead a moral life, and a belief that that god will be there to protect and heal you in your times of need. "The two sets of footprints are when we walked side-by-side, the one set of footprints are when I carried you."
What you suggest is a 2E concept and a AO ruling. I think that they are trying to get away from that. A god may have many different types of people under it divine umbrella.
I want them to stress how people pray to multiple gods every day. When a sailor goes to see he prays to a sea god for protection, when he gambles on ship he prays to Tymora and when he falls overboard and is saved he may pray to Beshaba and thank her forher kindness.
And yet the developers have not given any description of how things have changed religion-wise, nor have they offered any kind of justification for what changes have been made.
-No, no they haven't. And, I think that says a lot, personally.
In other news, we had a new player at the RPGA game. He made a rogue that worshiped Pelor. I insisted that you couldn't do that, since Amaunator (MY CHARACTER'S GOD!) and not Pelor is the Faerunian sun god. No one listened to me because they'd already waited for the new guy to finish his sheet and wanted to get under way with the module. I know fluff and continuity aren't exactly major concerns for Living Forgotten Realms, but you can't just violate canon like that! THE CANON IS THE LAW!!!
-A Cleric of Pelor could exist. The followers from other places can come to Faerûn, and in theory bring their deities with them, in an attempt to spread the worship of them. Of course, I don't know the history that that player made up for his character.
-All in all, though, from what you and a few others have said of the RPGA, what a bunch of clowns.
Humans worship Corellon. I think Khelben is in Arvandor and that may be due to some form of worship of some sort.
-Khelben worshiped Mystra. He was 1/4 Elven, however. He passed on to Arvandor as a sort of "wish fulfillment" thing. having lived so much of his life in the shadows of Elvendom, wishing and trying to be a part of it.
-No, no they haven't. And, I think that says a lot, personally.
What does it say, exactly?
-A Cleric of Pelor could exist. The followers from other places can come to Faerûn, and in theory bring their deities with them, in an attempt to spread the worship of them. Of course, I don't know the history that that player made up for his character.
But his character's a tiefling rogue.
-All in all, though, from what you and a few others have said of the RPGA, what a bunch of clowns.
You can barely tell it's Forgotten Realms!
-Khelben worshiped Mystra. He was 1/4 Elven, however. He passed on to Arvandor as a sort of "wish fulfillment" thing. having lived so much of his life in the shadows of Elvendom, wishing and trying to be a part of it.
I was unaware of this.
Humans worship Corellon. I think Khelben is in Arvandor and that may be due to some form of worship of some sort. Even if you ignore that I am sure that there were/are humans or other humanoids who worship deities that might be seen as a racial pantheon.
Why would humans worship Corellon?
I still think that their would be clergy of Talos roaming about. Some people may not want to give up the Talos concept and since Grumm will probably be getting power from Talos worship he won't really come down and tell the clergy otherwise.
Except this is supposed to have been revealed to everyone, if I'm correct. "Talos" was kicked out of the plane he'd been staying on when they found out the truth.
Perhaps the guy in that RPGA game was taught about the sungod but whoever taught it to him was from a different region and Pelor was the name they followed. Sort of like how christianity or other religions fragment and take on a life of their own with new saints and holy days. In the end the concept is the same but the names get changed. Allah, Yaweh(sp?), God ect...
He just said "I'm playing a Good character. Who should I worship?" when I mentioned the Wall of the Faithless to him, and one of the other players gave him suggestions based on the Player's Handbook selection. I didn't have my copy of the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, so he didn't know what his real options should have been.
Even the 3E stuff was pretty light on the Church info IMO.
This is a RPG game. The only true laws and rules of it are in the will and imagination of the players. Every pc you are roleplaying should be different so every follower thinks differently. You are roleplaying a character 100 years after the changes have taken place. Lathander is not the norm now, but Aumnester (sp?) is. So you should not be shocked or stunned. If you met a Lathanderite or a Pelorite (just let's say it fits into FR) then you would view them as an oddity since most worshipers of the sun/light god are following Ausepners ways.
But what happens when the player's imagination produces nothing but bizzare lustings, infantile Tolkien fanboyism and paladin obsession, like myself?!
The thing is, my characters' a drow, and at least a century old. He was in his early teens when the Spellplague hit. He'd have been there when Lathander became Amaunator, and is only starting to adventure now that he's a full elven adult.
What you suggest is a 2E concept and a AO ruling. I think that they are trying to get away from that. A god may have many different types of people under it divine umbrella.
I want them to stress how people pray to multiple gods every day. When a sailor goes to see he prays to a sea god for protection, when he gambles on ship he prays to Tymora and when he falls overboard and is saved he may pray to Beshaba and thank her forher kindness.
What do you mean a 2e concept? What was different about 2e religion than it is now? And what does AO mean?
I disagree vehemontly. The FR dieties used to be wonderfull roleplay guidelines for playing characters. The dogma's included philosophies and worldviews that were broad enough. Enough to mold them into unique characters each time you made or saw one.
Not sure what Ao ruling he meant though...
AO set some rules down in 2E at the end of TOT and I think druing 3E and now in 4E the desginers are/were doing away with those rules.
It sounds like your Pelor guy can easily be persuaded into having him change his deity.
There may be small secluded groups that still worship Talos. Perhaps they did not "get the memo" or perhaps they do not believe it (whackos) or perhaps their FAITH in that old god makes them think he is around. If they still get spells from somewhere they might just keep on worshipping Grummsh but just using Talos' name. Again what does Grummsh care, he is getting GODjuice out of them. Heh.
A human might worship Correllon because they grew up with elves or somehow developed an interest in Elven gods. I am sure Correllon doesn't care, the more worshippers the more powerful he gets, at least in 2 and 3E.
A human might just like elven culture. There are lots of reasons. I was thinking about playing a human that worshipped Brandabaris because I thought the Misadventure hook was pretty neat. I was going to write an adventure for my pcs that had them fighting a village that was under the sway of Lloth. They were all humans. Perhaps this is why I am down with many things in 4E FR. Who knows?
What does it say, exactly?
-Nothing. That's the problem.
But his character's a tiefling rogue.
-Hey, with a detailed enough history, pretty much anything is possible.
As to deities defining roleplaying guidelines, I'd tend to disagree. Giving us at least the philosophical tenets of their churches would be an immeasurable help so that we don't go creating bloodthirsty clerics of Eldath and get people looking askance at us when we start describing them... ;)
Humans worship Corellon. I think Khelben is in Arvandor and that may be due to some form of worship of some sort.
It is--Khelben did worship some of the elven gods. I have to admit, though, I would have expected him to go to Dweamorheart.
How exactly is that a reward?
-How is that a reward? How is that not a reward?
-Put yourself in his shoes. You are born of mixed ancestry. You grow up in a city primarily inhabited by individuals of one of your heritages. Because you are of mixed heritage, people are always putting you down, and/or denying part of your heritage. When you finally leave, you set out to "make your parents/place of origin" proud. The place you settle, eventually, has some problems with the people of your ancestry. So, generally speaking, you keep it a secret.
-Fast forward, you finally die. When the 'pearly gates' are opening, you see the afterlife for your people. After all of that work, you've finally been accepted as one of them!
I see. Maybe I'm approaching this from the wrong perspective then. Still, why wasn't Drizzt redeemed with the other good drow?
-The Drow who had the effects of the Descent of the Drow High Magic spell were either:
(A) Clerics of Eilistraee
(B) Individuals who had a "pure" bloodline going all the way back to Miyeritar, that was not "tainted" by Wendonai.
-Drizzt was/had neither of these.
About Drizzt, he's evil now, get over it, and should be killed by some appropriately heroic gnome or hin to liberate the stinky dwarves from their oppressive drow and orcish foes. ;)
See, now I would have told the elves the bugger off long ago had I been in Khelben's place, but that's just me...
About Drizzt, he's evil now, get over it, and should be killed by some appropriately heroic gnome or hin to liberate the stinky dwarves from their oppressive drow and orcish foes. ;)
My thoughts exactly. Isn't that usually how people with elven blood normally act when rejected by their elf kin?
And I know you're being sarcastic there, but where are you getting that from?
Simpler, I guess.
My thoughts exactly. Isn't that usually how people with elven blood normally act when rejected by their elf kin?
-How a person acts when they get scorned differs from person to person, depending on who the scorn is coming from. Me, when certain people say things to me, I laugh it off, since they're relative nobodies in the grant scheme of things. Others, it bothers me more, since they matter to me more. That changes from how, say, my sister reacts to these things, or my mother, or my father, and so on and so on.
-How is that a reward? How is that not a reward?
-Put yourself in his shoes. You are born of mixed ancestry. You grow up in a city primarily inhabited by individuals of one of your heritages. Because you are of mixed heritage, people are always putting you down, and/or denying part of your heritage. When you finally leave, you set out to "make your parents/place of origin" proud. The place you settle, eventually, has some problems with the people of your ancestry. So, generally speaking, you keep it a secret.
-Fast forward, you finally die. When the 'pearly gates' are opening, you see the afterlife for your people. After all of that work, you've finally been accepted as one of them!
You see, though, back when I read that novel, I remarked on the Candlekeep boards (on Steven Schend's Q&A thread) something to the effect of "After living for 900 years or so and having accomplished so many great things, why would Khelben care so much about being 'accepted' by elves?" To me, it seemed like a rather undignified mindset for someone like him to have, and after all, he's still more human than he is elf. Steven's answer was that he actually didn't dwell on it all that much. Not sure exactly what page that's on in thread, but my point is the impression I got from the novel was rather inaccurate.
Anyway, based on that conversation I had with the author, I can't see Khelben's story as a lifetime of desperately trying to be an elf, or even necessarily accepted by elves, although at the same time that doesn't mean wouldn't enjoy being accepted, either.
You see, though, back when I read that novel, I remarked on the Candlekeep boards (on Steven Schend's Q&A thread) something to the effect of "After living for 900 years or so and having accomplished so many great things, why would Khelben care so much about being 'accepted' by elves?" To me, it seemed like a rather undignified mindset for someone like him to have, and after all, he's still more human than he is elf. Steven's answer was that he actually didn't dwell on it all that much. Not sure exactly what page that's on in thread, but my point is the impression I got from the novel was rather inaccurate.
Anyway, based on that conversation I had with the author, I can't see Khelben's story as a lifetime of desperately trying to be an elf, or even necessarily accepted by elves, although at the same time that doesn't mean wouldn't enjoy being accepted, either.
-I wasn't implying that, for all of his life, he struggled to be accepted as an Elf. For all of his life, he had his Elven heritage denied by others, or denied by himself. In the end, when it is all said and done, the doors of Arvandor open to him, an final acceptance by others (Corellon Larethian) that he is what he is.
-I wasn't implying that, for all of his life, he struggled to be accepted as an Elf. For all of his life, he had his Elven heritage denied by others, or denied by himself. In the end, when it is all said and done, the doors of Arvandor open to him, an final acceptance by others (Corellon Larethian) that he is what he is.
Yes, that and ZO's comment are along the lines of how I see it now.
...Now I'm confused.
-He's dead. Don't worry about it. :P
-What are you confused about?
And I don't make it up as I go along. :P
Though that one I did pretty much make up. :D
Glory to the Hin and Gnome Revolution! :evillaugh
What am I not confused about involving FR? :P
-Lots of things? I don't know. Well, what is it that is confusing you here?