Orva revisited. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Orva revisited.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
colman
Nov 30, 2008 11:48:33 I'm working on the pre-history of the Thunder Peaks for my atlas of the area at the moment, and I've come across Orva.

Normally, when I read a thread like this, I nod my head sagely (working on the basis that I must have acquired some sagely characteristics by absorption) and carry on, but I'm not really all that satisfied by the end-point of the discussion.

What we know about Orva from sources is:

* 3e FRCS and 4e Backdrop Cormyr (Dragon 365) both say that Orva was absorbed into Cormyr: it appears from that that Orva was a human nation in the early years of Dale reckoning

* A kingdom based there, probably between -600DR and a few centuries later, worshipped Labelas Enoreth in his 'Kronus' guise - as god of time (Demihuman Deities, p117).

* The discussion on page 75 of Four from Cormyr indicates that the kingdom was destroyed by the opening of a gate to Baator, specifically in Minauros, which caused the Vast Swamp. The gate was a side effect of an attempted magic raised by the archmages of the court of the last king who ordered them to find a way of expanding the borders of his realm with minimal effort.

* Elminster's Ecologies indicates there are elven ruins in the swamp.

Now, as a matter of opinion, the ruins in Four from Cormyr don't seem elven to me: they use their own time keeping but cross reference to Mulhorand, they write in Thorass and the architecture and artifacts are just wrong. Doesn't work, and that's the major bit of lore we have on the area.

So, how do we reconcile the bits of the puzzle in a more satisfying way?

I'd propose that Orva was a human kingdom: Netherese survivors who fled to an already existing settlement dedicated to studying the lore left by a previous elven city of worshippers of Labelas Enoreth as part of an investigation into chronomancy.

The nation of Orva that was absorbed by Cormyr was what was left a few hundred years after the fall of the kingdom: a few barbarian tribes and some coastal settlements who called themselves the Orva and had a few myths about ancient greatness.
#2
Stigger
Nov 30, 2008 12:13:13 Well, easily done without too much wrangling really. It would probably be best to presume that the original builders of the ruins were indeed elven, but for whatever reason decided to abandon the settlement, which the humans promptly took over and began modifying to suit their own temperments and tastes, and so you get the bizarre mixture of Thorass and Mulhorandi references there. As to earlier elven artifacts and markings, most would have probably been found or altered by the new inhabitants at some point, so that could explain their absense.
#3
colman
Nov 30, 2008 13:53:51 Why would you assume those ruins were elven at all? There was a human kingdom in the area for hundreds of years from the looks of things.
#4
markustay_dup
Nov 30, 2008 14:05:37 That particular region is far from my area of expertise, but there is another thing to consider. There was an Elven nation in that area that was a contemporary of Early Cormanthor, and later became a principality(?) of Myth Drannor.

I can't remember where I read about it, but it is canon, and Ed made some commentary about it somewhere, but I can remember exactly what either. I'm sorry I'm so full of lore-holes today.

I believe the part about it being absorbed into Cormanthor/Myth Drannor was added later, to reconcile some funky lore conundrums, and somewhere (the GHotR?) some stuff was added-in that the land was actually granted to those Elves by Cormanthor.

I wish I could remember more details, but the only thing that comes to mind is that it was somewhere between Cormanthor and Cormyr (which was just a fledgling settlement, IIRC, at that time).

The reason that this comes to mind is that I had also thought about Orva when I learned of this, which is another lore conundrum, and I was thinking that Orva was probably built upon a fallen Elven Kingdom of old (like many human kingdoms are), and that is why the humans there worshipped an aspect of an Elven deity (they probably found the temple, and misnamed the god, perhaps mis-reading an Elven word for 'time').

Just my thoughts - I'll try to dig up what Kingdom that was. Maybe Krash or Old Sage will come along and help out with a little memory nudge for us. I'm not sure if it was the same one that was involved with the formation of the Cormyr nation, but it may have been. It was a fairly small realm - like Evereska - as well, so it didn't have a very large impact on Faerûnian history.
#5
Stigger
Nov 30, 2008 14:24:04
Why would you assume those ruins were elven at all? There was a human kingdom in the area for hundreds of years from the looks of things.

Mostly because humans measure their history in centuries, whereas elves do so in millennia. Humans being there for 4 centuries is what, half of an elven lifespan (going by previous lore)? Not much time at all by an elven reckoning if you think about it, so not much reason why they couldn't be elven, even if they were changed beyond all recognition.
#6
colman
Nov 30, 2008 14:24:45
There was an Elven nation in that area that was a contemporary of Early Cormanthor, and later became a principality(?) of Myth Drannor.

You mean this, from Krash in the thread I linked above?

The reference in "Four From Cormyr" talks about Orva having existed "two millenia ago" (i.e. c. -630 to -650 DR or so). This predates Iliphar's kingdom by several centuries. I note that the Vast Swamp borders the Hullack Forest. Within the Hullack Forest is Elfhold which is detailed in "Faiths & Pantheons". The Elfhold is linked with Iliphar and his house, Amaratharr.

No nation after Orva would have occupied the Vast Swamp, unless it was a nation of devil-worshipping lizard men!
#7
BadCatMan
Nov 30, 2008 18:42:16 Orvaskyte Keep gets a brief brief mention in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave, but gives nothing we didn't already know from Four From Cormyr. Curiously, it also features a Tomb Of Chonis, and mentions a ruined temple of Chonis elsewhere, and suggests that this 'Chonis' is a forgotten god, demi-god or fiend. But this is entirely conjectural - a name above the door of what might be a temple (written in Thorass). But if so, perhaps Chonis = Chronos?

Demihuman Deities says: "Likewise, along forgotten-aspect of Labelas, known as Chronos, Karonis, or Kronus, was worshiped centuries ago in the tiny realm of Orva, now sunk beneath the waters of the Vast Swamp of eastern Cormyr."

Now Chronos and Kronus were originally two separate deities on Earth, from Ancient Greece, who practically merged here in our world (just by the similarity of their names!). Karonis is no doubt a (mis-)pronounciation. So I'm fairly certain that this is a human god that Labelas absorbed, perhaps coming from Chessenta (where we might find Greek gods and titans*). The statue of Chronos/Kronus in Orva in Four From Cormyr looks human, but then, it also has wings.

* There are other rare Greek gods and titans around FR. Poseidon has followers in the Impilturan navy. Typhon is an aspect/alias for Set. St Dionysus is a saint of Ilmater. Tyche the Netherese goddess who split in Tymora and Beshaba. Prometheus and Tyche, again, have temples in the Raurin desert, following a planar crossroads period.

On the other hand, Chronos could refer to Jeriah Chronos, the Chronomancer, the time mage of Netheril. Sure, he died of his wounds after fighting off an orc horde at Illusk, but anything's possible. It might just be feasible that he ascended to minor godhood and gained the Time portfolio from Mystryl, before or after her death and the fall of Netheril. Orva might be a Netherese survivor state, who took Chronos as their state religion or hero-god, until the kingdom fell and refugees joined the local elves, and passed the remnants of Chronos to Labelas.

Chronos's worship isn't actually dead either - there's Norrin Blackgrove, a half-elf bard from Thentia in Four From Comyr who claims to be his last worshipper.

I remember readng about structures made of glass in the Vast Swamp somewhere, but don't recall where or what for.
#8
old_sage
Nov 30, 2008 19:32:57
Maybe Krash or Old Sage will come along and help out with a little memory nudge for us.

Nothing immediately comes to mind -- aside from what I said previously in that archived thread Colman linked to in his initial post.

Having said that, BCM's post has got me thinking about some bits I read recently from two brief email exchanges with "certain Realms notables" back in August.

I'll dig through those files and see if there's anything of relevance that I can post here.
#9
markustay_dup
Nov 30, 2008 20:42:16 If you take the reference in Four from Cormyr and say that the information was 'mistaken', based on the fact that Historians confused Orva with the Elven Realm it replaced. Ergo, Iliphar's Kingdom would have been two millenium old, and was replaced by human Orva for a short time, and the growing nation of Cormyr simply recorded 'Orva' as the name of the Kingdom since Elven times (which was really two seperate Kingdoms occupying the same region). I don't think there is a name for Iliphar's Kingdom (I'm not sure though), which plays right into this - if the expanding human population did not know the name of the earlier Kingdom and had dealings with Orva, even for a short time (probably before Cormyr was even a nation), it's pretty easy to see how this 'misinformation' got recorded as fact in Cormyr - and later Dalelands - history.

You don't need to break canon, but sometimes you need to bend it a little. ;)

Also, the original Goblin nation occupying Cormyr might have been another contemporary (the ones from Grodd) of either Orva or Iliphar, along with the Dwarven Kingdom of Oghrann to the West (in the Tunlands and surrounding Mountains). In fact, I would think that Thunderholme in the Thunderpeaks was connected to Oghrann somehow, considering the proximity of the two dwarven Realms .

All depends on the Cormyr timeline, though, and thats something I'm (obviously) not very familiar with.
#10
colman
Dec 01, 2008 8:04:48
Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave,

There's more lore than I thought in that.

The various bits of Cormanthyr around the place are next on my list for the atlas, so I guess I can integrate those two when I work them out.
#11
markustay_dup
Dec 02, 2008 8:47:06 Okay, after a little research I came up with Uvaeren, which was an Elven Realm that existed between the last of the Crown Wars and the founding of Cormanthor (I think - this really isn't my field of speciality). This Realm existed to the southwest of what was to later become Cormanthor, so it sounds to me like it was located, at least in part, in Cormyr (which was all part of the same forest back then). I'm not certain, but it sounds to me light Iliphar may have been one of the last - if not THE last - rulers of Uvaeren.

THAT Kingdom could have been the one I was talking about, and ruins would be theirs. Later, some other humans (refugees from fallen Thaeravel?) settled in these Elven Lands, perhaps even with the permission of the Elves themselves, who were retreating further into the forest and working on establishing a more unified Kingdom of their own (eventually to become Cormanthyr).

It looks to me - and I could easily be totally off - that the majority of the Uvaeren Elves would have seen the Chondathan settlers slowly moving inward from the coast and decided to leave. Iliphar and a few of his retainers were probably the 'last holdouts' from that ancient Realm, and by the time he made that agreement with the early kings of Cormyr, the Orvans would have already been settled in the region that would eventually become the Vast Swamp (and occupying - and modifying - the Elven structures).

Now if you say those first Orvans were refugees from Thaeravel (which fell to the Netherease in -3392 DR), and the Elves of Cormanthor helped them (as they did so many others) to escape the Netherease, it would make perfect sense that they were hidden away for a long time and kept in some obscure Elven settlement, which would have grown into the Realm of Orva as the Elves retreated.

The first caveat is that this would explain any 'magical weirdness' with Orva - the Thaeravelites were the people of the Alabaster Towers, and HIGHLY magical in their own right - hence the experimentation that lead to the creation of the swamp. The second caveat would be that you have an explanation of why so much Elven culture wound up mixed into the human Orvan one.

And a third cool thing is that we get to connect the last days of Thaeravel with the early years of Uvaeren, and it's fun to weave Realmslore together like that.

Now I have to just wait for all the Elven experts and Loremasters to show up and shoot holes into all that. :P
#12
iakhovas
Dec 02, 2008 9:13:59 Uvaeren comprised the lands of modern day Mistledale and was destroyed c.-5,000 DR (Grand History p.23).

The realm you are looking for is Cormanthir-note the 'i' instead of a 'y' or an 'o'. The elven realm of Cormanthir comprised the vast woodlands known to the humans as the Wolf Woods (or Cormyr as it would later be known). Reference Cormyr: A Novel p. 87

Iliphar's defeat of the black wyrm Thauglorimorgorus and his rule over Cormanthir is mentioned in the Grand History p.53, but the editor mistakenly replaced the 'i' with a 'y' in the print run.
#13
markustay_dup
Dec 03, 2008 11:30:11 Ah, okay.

Thanks for that.

So you could easily say that the fleeing Thaeravel refugees settled in the southern ruins of Uvaeren, between the times of Uvaeren's fall and Cormanthir's rise, and eventually rose again as Orva.

In fact, it could have been the experiment-gone-wrong in Orva that caused the northern Cormanthor Elves to investigate, and re-settle the southern lands, forming the kingdom of Cormanthir. :D

Does that work? The eastern heartlands and their timeline isn't something I've looked to deeply into. I'm thinking we need a bar graph with all settlements and civilizations listed showing the overlap of each.

You know... maybe there really was too much Realmslore.
#14
18DELTA
Dec 03, 2008 11:57:25
You know... maybe there really was too much Realmslore.

-Heretic! ;) :P :D

18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric)
#15
colman
Dec 04, 2008 1:46:26
I'm thinking we need a bar graph with all settlements and civilizations listed showing the overlap of each.

It's on my list, strangely enough.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 colman Nov 30, 2008 11:48:33	I'm working on the pre-history of the Thunder Peaks for my atlas of the area at the moment, and I've come across Orva. Normally, when I read a thread like this, I nod my head sagely (working on the basis that I must have acquired some sagely characteristics by absorption) and carry on, but I'm not really all that satisfied by the end-point of the discussion. What we know about Orva from sources is: * 3e FRCS and 4e Backdrop Cormyr (Dragon 365) both say that Orva was absorbed into Cormyr: it appears from that that Orva was a human nation in the early years of Dale reckoning * A kingdom based there, probably between -600DR and a few centuries later, worshipped Labelas Enoreth in his 'Kronus' guise - as god of time (Demihuman Deities, p117). * The discussion on page 75 of Four from Cormyr indicates that the kingdom was destroyed by the opening of a gate to Baator, specifically in Minauros, which caused the Vast Swamp. The gate was a side effect of an attempted magic raised by the archmages of the court of the last king who ordered them to find a way of expanding the borders of his realm with minimal effort. * Elminster's Ecologies indicates there are elven ruins in the swamp. Now, as a matter of opinion, the ruins in Four from Cormyr don't seem elven to me: they use their own time keeping but cross reference to Mulhorand, they write in Thorass and the architecture and artifacts are just wrong. Doesn't work, and that's the major bit of lore we have on the area. So, how do we reconcile the bits of the puzzle in a more satisfying way? I'd propose that Orva was a human kingdom: Netherese survivors who fled to an already existing settlement dedicated to studying the lore left by a previous elven city of worshippers of Labelas Enoreth as part of an investigation into chronomancy. The nation of Orva that was absorbed by Cormyr was what was left a few hundred years after the fall of the kingdom: a few barbarian tribes and some coastal settlements who called themselves the Orva and had a few myths about ancient greatness.
#2 Stigger Nov 30, 2008 12:13:13	Well, easily done without too much wrangling really. It would probably be best to presume that the original builders of the ruins were indeed elven, but for whatever reason decided to abandon the settlement, which the humans promptly took over and began modifying to suit their own temperments and tastes, and so you get the bizarre mixture of Thorass and Mulhorandi references there. As to earlier elven artifacts and markings, most would have probably been found or altered by the new inhabitants at some point, so that could explain their absense.
#3 colman Nov 30, 2008 13:53:51	Why would you assume those ruins were elven at all? There was a human kingdom in the area for hundreds of years from the looks of things.
#4 markustay_dup Nov 30, 2008 14:05:37	That particular region is far from my area of expertise, but there is another thing to consider. There was an Elven nation in that area that was a contemporary of Early Cormanthor, and later became a principality(?) of Myth Drannor. I can't remember where I read about it, but it is canon, and Ed made some commentary about it somewhere, but I can remember exactly what either. I'm sorry I'm so full of lore-holes today. I believe the part about it being absorbed into Cormanthor/Myth Drannor was added later, to reconcile some funky lore conundrums, and somewhere (the GHotR?) some stuff was added-in that the land was actually granted to those Elves by Cormanthor. I wish I could remember more details, but the only thing that comes to mind is that it was somewhere between Cormanthor and Cormyr (which was just a fledgling settlement, IIRC, at that time). The reason that this comes to mind is that I had also thought about Orva when I learned of this, which is another lore conundrum, and I was thinking that Orva was probably built upon a fallen Elven Kingdom of old (like many human kingdoms are), and that is why the humans there worshipped an aspect of an Elven deity (they probably found the temple, and misnamed the god, perhaps mis-reading an Elven word for 'time'). Just my thoughts - I'll try to dig up what Kingdom that was. Maybe Krash or Old Sage will come along and help out with a little memory nudge for us. I'm not sure if it was the same one that was involved with the formation of the Cormyr nation, but it may have been. It was a fairly small realm - like Evereska - as well, so it didn't have a very large impact on Faerûnian history.
#5 Stigger Nov 30, 2008 14:24:04	Why would you assume those ruins were elven at all? There was a human kingdom in the area for hundreds of years from the looks of things. Mostly because humans measure their history in centuries, whereas elves do so in millennia. Humans being there for 4 centuries is what, half of an elven lifespan (going by previous lore)? Not much time at all by an elven reckoning if you think about it, so not much reason why they couldn't be elven, even if they were changed beyond all recognition.
#6 colman Nov 30, 2008 14:24:45	There was an Elven nation in that area that was a contemporary of Early Cormanthor, and later became a principality(?) of Myth Drannor. You mean this, from Krash in the thread I linked above? The reference in "Four From Cormyr" talks about Orva having existed "two millenia ago" (i.e. c. -630 to -650 DR or so). This predates Iliphar's kingdom by several centuries. I note that the Vast Swamp borders the Hullack Forest. Within the Hullack Forest is Elfhold which is detailed in "Faiths & Pantheons". The Elfhold is linked with Iliphar and his house, Amaratharr. No nation after Orva would have occupied the Vast Swamp, unless it was a nation of devil-worshipping lizard men!
#7 BadCatMan Nov 30, 2008 18:42:16	Orvaskyte Keep gets a brief brief mention in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave, but gives nothing we didn't already know from Four From Cormyr. Curiously, it also features a Tomb Of Chonis, and mentions a ruined temple of Chonis elsewhere, and suggests that this 'Chonis' is a forgotten god, demi-god or fiend. But this is entirely conjectural - a name above the door of what might be a temple (written in Thorass). But if so, perhaps Chonis = Chronos? Demihuman Deities says: "Likewise, along forgotten-aspect of Labelas, known as Chronos, Karonis, or Kronus, was worshiped centuries ago in the tiny realm of Orva, now sunk beneath the waters of the Vast Swamp of eastern Cormyr." Now Chronos and Kronus were originally two separate deities on Earth, from Ancient Greece, who practically merged here in our world (just by the similarity of their names!). Karonis is no doubt a (mis-)pronounciation. So I'm fairly certain that this is a human god that Labelas absorbed, perhaps coming from Chessenta (where we might find Greek gods and titans). The statue of Chronos/Kronus in Orva in Four From Cormyr* looks human, but then, it also has wings. * There are other rare Greek gods and titans around FR. Poseidon has followers in the Impilturan navy. Typhon is an aspect/alias for Set. St Dionysus is a saint of Ilmater. Tyche the Netherese goddess who split in Tymora and Beshaba. Prometheus and Tyche, again, have temples in the Raurin desert, following a planar crossroads period. On the other hand, Chronos could refer to Jeriah Chronos, the Chronomancer, the time mage of Netheril. Sure, he died of his wounds after fighting off an orc horde at Illusk, but anything's possible. It might just be feasible that he ascended to minor godhood and gained the Time portfolio from Mystryl, before or after her death and the fall of Netheril. Orva might be a Netherese survivor state, who took Chronos as their state religion or hero-god, until the kingdom fell and refugees joined the local elves, and passed the remnants of Chronos to Labelas. Chronos's worship isn't actually dead either - there's Norrin Blackgrove, a half-elf bard from Thentia in Four From Comyr who claims to be his last worshipper. I remember readng about structures made of glass in the Vast Swamp somewhere, but don't recall where or what for.
#8 old_sage Nov 30, 2008 19:32:57	Maybe Krash or Old Sage will come along and help out with a little memory nudge for us. Nothing immediately comes to mind -- aside from what I said previously in that archived thread Colman linked to in his initial post. Having said that, BCM's post has got me thinking about some bits I read recently from two brief email exchanges with "certain Realms notables" back in August. I'll dig through those files and see if there's anything of relevance that I can post here.
#9 markustay_dup Nov 30, 2008 20:42:16	If you take the reference in Four from Cormyr and say that the information was 'mistaken', based on the fact that Historians confused Orva with the Elven Realm it replaced. Ergo, Iliphar's Kingdom would have been two millenium old, and was replaced by human Orva for a short time, and the growing nation of Cormyr simply recorded 'Orva' as the name of the Kingdom since Elven times (which was really two seperate Kingdoms occupying the same region). I don't think there is a name for Iliphar's Kingdom (I'm not sure though), which plays right into this - if the expanding human population did not know the name of the earlier Kingdom and had dealings with Orva, even for a short time (probably before Cormyr was even a nation), it's pretty easy to see how this 'misinformation' got recorded as fact in Cormyr - and later Dalelands - history. You don't need to break canon, but sometimes you need to bend it a little. ;) Also, the original Goblin nation occupying Cormyr might have been another contemporary (the ones from Grodd) of either Orva or Iliphar, along with the Dwarven Kingdom of Oghrann to the West (in the Tunlands and surrounding Mountains). In fact, I would think that Thunderholme in the Thunderpeaks was connected to Oghrann somehow, considering the proximity of the two dwarven Realms . All depends on the Cormyr timeline, though, and thats something I'm (obviously) not very familiar with.
#10 colman Dec 01, 2008 8:04:48	Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave, There's more lore than I thought in that. The various bits of Cormanthyr around the place are next on my list for the atlas, so I guess I can integrate those two when I work them out.
#11 markustay_dup Dec 02, 2008 8:47:06	Okay, after a little research I came up with Uvaeren, which was an Elven Realm that existed between the last of the Crown Wars and the founding of Cormanthor (I think - this really isn't my field of speciality). This Realm existed to the southwest of what was to later become Cormanthor, so it sounds to me like it was located, at least in part, in Cormyr (which was all part of the same forest back then). I'm not certain, but it sounds to me light Iliphar may have been one of the last - if not THE last - rulers of Uvaeren. THAT Kingdom could have been the one I was talking about, and ruins would be theirs. Later, some other humans (refugees from fallen Thaeravel?) settled in these Elven Lands, perhaps even with the permission of the Elves themselves, who were retreating further into the forest and working on establishing a more unified Kingdom of their own (eventually to become Cormanthyr). It looks to me - and I could easily be totally off - that the majority of the Uvaeren Elves would have seen the Chondathan settlers slowly moving inward from the coast and decided to leave. Iliphar and a few of his retainers were probably the 'last holdouts' from that ancient Realm, and by the time he made that agreement with the early kings of Cormyr, the Orvans would have already been settled in the region that would eventually become the Vast Swamp (and occupying - and modifying - the Elven structures). Now if you say those first Orvans were refugees from Thaeravel (which fell to the Netherease in -3392 DR), and the Elves of Cormanthor helped them (as they did so many others) to escape the Netherease, it would make perfect sense that they were hidden away for a long time and kept in some obscure Elven settlement, which would have grown into the Realm of Orva as the Elves retreated. The first caveat is that this would explain any 'magical weirdness' with Orva - the Thaeravelites were the people of the Alabaster Towers, and HIGHLY magical in their own right - hence the experimentation that lead to the creation of the swamp. The second caveat would be that you have an explanation of why so much Elven culture wound up mixed into the human Orvan one. And a third cool thing is that we get to connect the last days of Thaeravel with the early years of Uvaeren, and it's fun to weave Realmslore together like that. Now I have to just wait for all the Elven experts and Loremasters to show up and shoot holes into all that. :P
#12 iakhovas Dec 02, 2008 9:13:59	Uvaeren comprised the lands of modern day Mistledale and was destroyed c.-5,000 DR (Grand History p.23). The realm you are looking for is Cormanthir-note the 'i' instead of a 'y' or an 'o'. The elven realm of Cormanthir comprised the vast woodlands known to the humans as the Wolf Woods (or Cormyr as it would later be known). Reference Cormyr: A Novel p. 87 Iliphar's defeat of the black wyrm Thauglorimorgorus and his rule over Cormanthir is mentioned in the Grand History p.53, but the editor mistakenly replaced the 'i' with a 'y' in the print run.
#13 markustay_dup Dec 03, 2008 11:30:11	Ah, okay. Thanks for that. So you could easily say that the fleeing Thaeravel refugees settled in the southern ruins of Uvaeren, between the times of Uvaeren's fall and Cormanthir's rise, and eventually rose again as Orva. In fact, it could have been the experiment-gone-wrong in Orva that caused the northern Cormanthor Elves to investigate, and re-settle the southern lands, forming the kingdom of Cormanthir. :D Does that work? The eastern heartlands and their timeline isn't something I've looked to deeply into. I'm thinking we need a bar graph with all settlements and civilizations listed showing the overlap of each. You know... maybe there really was too much Realmslore.
#14 18DELTA Dec 03, 2008 11:57:25	You know... maybe there really was too much Realmslore. -Heretic! ;) :P :D 18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric)
#15 colman Dec 04, 2008 1:46:26	I'm thinking we need a bar graph with all settlements and civilizations listed showing the overlap of each. It's on my list, strangely enough.