What the hell . . .?
You spend your life devoted to the ideals of the God. You abstain from the earthy joys of your less spiritual comrades. You endeavor to lead a life that inspires, that enlightens, and that benefits the world you guard.
Then some jerk from HR comes along, slaps a nametag marked Defender on your armor plate, and you're wondering where in the hells your Detect Evil ability went. The next thing you know, every neutral good wannabe is telling you they're a paladin (excuse me, unaligned, unaligned, what was I thinking). Bane is claiming he has angels and paladins, and I think Cyric's trying to start his own damn order.
What the hell happend to this world? I understand Management put out a Fourth Version of the Operations Manual. Will someone in the know tell me if there is room for hope? Or should I vamoose to newmade worlds where it's understood a paladin is Lawful Good? Or do the At-Will powers and Encounter Powers give me reason to stay?
Change can really, really blow.
Seriously addled,
Joe Firebritches
Man, I almost spilled my glass of water over my keyboard.
Doubting the Deity--definitely, I'd need to trade in the plate mail for charred black armor, red contacts, and the Dick Cheney Church of Situational Ethics. Doubting WotC--not so much. That' the sort of thing that gets you another merit badge. Or a holy avenger. Depending on your XP, of course.
To my elven brother, thank you for your kind words. Hope you didn't spill your beverage.
Say, didn't you Blackguards used to be called anti-Paladins? That made more sense. Blackguard sounds more like a shoe polish . . Just a thought.
Personally, I would've preferred if they'd called the class Crusader, stating that the LG ones are Paladins, CG ones are known as Holy Liberators, evil ones are called Blackguards, etc. But I can see why they decided not to cast away the name, seeing as how it's a pretty old sacred cow. And it's easy enough to change ingame. After all, just because that's the class name, it doesn't mean you have to call the character or NPC by that class name (Doubt many Warlords are gonna be referred to as Warlord. And how many Fighters are actually called Fighters?).
Despite that, though, I'm pretty happy with the changes to the Paladin. And this coming from a guy who first played them during AD&D, and stuck to the Paladin's Code from The Complete Paladin's Handbook to the letter. Even going so far as to make notes whenever I screwed up and making sure to properly atone for even the smallest violation of the code later on (although usually they were Incidental Violations). 4E comes out in four days, though, so you'll be able to judge for yourself, then.
However, at the same time, I can see the rationale behind dropping the alignment restriction altogether. Having any core class that is restricted to one alignment only is probably not the best idea if you are trying to broaden the number of options players can have, and alignment no longer means much in terms of game mechanics.
I have to admit, I have an emotional attachment to the idea that paladins ought to be Lawful Good.
I see ya. Which is why I thought it was ok when they originally began using the term "Dark Paladin" for those of evil. Clear distinction.
But after you start polluting the ideal with other names, like GreenKnight pointed out, it's time to separate them all. Make them deity specific and unique. Perhaps I want Hurting Hands instead of Healing Hands or some such? Especially when you get into deity specific stuff--A Stormbringer of Talos with and Aura of Chaos, or some such thing.
So much sweeter. :evillaugh
I've never fully bought into the multi-axis alignment split. Even folks starting in the true neutral slot start to pick up a tendency Lightward or Darkward. Yet in a fantasy world where ethics is a matter of perspective, having a character class bound by Law and Good, adhering strictly to its principles, seems (to me) necessary. Even if player characters don't enjoy that role, it provides a nice contrast and an excellent source of storytelling conflict in a handy NPC.
For myself, I enjoy the--ah-- unmentionable alternate world mentioned frequently on these message boards lately. I don't want to offend our hosts, but I prefer my paladins lawful Good, detecting evil and smiting it. Just my preference. Safe to say, that doesn't eliminate a healthy discussion of just what is Good when Tyr, Ilmater, and a few of the other "good" powers are no longer seeing eye to eye.
But paladins of Bane? Cyric? Shar? Hell no. Sorry. No. Freaking. Way.
Just my opinion.
But after you start polluting the ideal with other names, like GreenKnight pointed out, it's time to separate them all.
They had a similar thing in 2E, with regard to the racial restriction. Only Humans could be Paladins, but there were more then a few kits which gave you Dwarf and Halfling flavored Paladins, for instance (there's even a section in The Complete Paladin's Handbook titled "Demihumans as Demipaladins"). Then 3E comes along and anyone can be a Paladin. It gets pretty pointless after a while when you make a hard rule that states that "this is the way it must be, no exception!"... and then provide a dozen different exceptions.
Still, I think I'm gonna be sticking to LG Paladins, though. The Complete Paladin's Handbook is gonna come with me wherever I go, and I'll make sure to properly atone whenever my Paladin bumps into a table and accidentally knocks a pitcher of ale onto the person seated at the table, or when he neglects his personal hygiene. :D
I want Hurting Hands instead of Healing Hands or some such? Especially when you get into deity specific stuff--A Stormbringer of Talos with and Aura of Chaos, or some such thing.
The DMG suggests two things when using evil Clerics and Paladins. Either A) Simply change the effects so they don't look so good (easy change), or B) Change the actual mechanics so that any attacks which deal Radiant damage deal Necrotic damage, instead. So Holy Strike, for example, could be called 'Unholy Strike' and deal Necrotic damage instead of Radiant damage.
Another interesting alignment restricition could be to limit clerics to Good and Lawful Good only. Warlocks could then be the priests of Evil, Chaotic Evil, and Unaligned gods.
Still, I'm a relic. They ain't paladins--how about Black Knights? Black Guards? Wuzzles?
Hell, I'm playing Pathfinder.
The bad of 3E pallys? Horrible spell progression, too much MAD, and Detect Evil as an at will power. Detect Evil was always annoying and since I hate alignments I hated detect evil.
The DMG suggests two things when using evil Clerics and Paladins. Either A) Simply change the effects so they don't look so good (easy change), or B) Change the actual mechanics so that any attacks which deal Radiant damage deal Necrotic damage, instead. So Holy Strike, for example, could be called 'Unholy Strike' and deal Necrotic damage instead of Radiant damage.
Pretty much what I meant about the whole "Dark Paladin" thing. It was just an opposing force. And I have no problem with PC's being Paladin's of Torm, Tyr, or Helm, I just think it should be deity specific and more related to what that Paladin represents--Lawful Good or not.
You're free to limit paladins to LG, of course.
Another interesting alignment restricition could be to limit clerics to Good and Lawful Good only. Warlocks could then be the priests of Evil, Chaotic Evil, and Unaligned gods.
Again, just another name for the same thing, but for the opposing alignment.
Still, I'm a relic. They ain't paladins--how about Black Knights? Black Guards? Wuzzles?
You can call them Flumphs if you prefer. Nothing states that they must absolutely be referred to as Paladins in game. I know that if I ever run another game, again, that Paladins will refer solely to the LG variety, while Blackguards will be the Evil variety.
yet never hesitating to sacrifice himself for what is Good. If you want to defend the innocent, thrust yourself into the breach against overwhelming odds
There're some nice options for the heroic, self-sacrificing Paladin in 4E. Lay on Hands consumes one of your Healing Surges in order to give another a free Healing Surge. At 2nd-level you gain access to a Utility Power called 'Martyr's Blessing', which essentially amounts to "If an adjacent ally is hit by an attack, you can choose to throw yourself in front of the attack" (with similar and more powerful versions of this at higher levels, like 'Strike Me Instead'). Channel Divinity: Divine Mettle grants an ally another Saving Throw. You can use Divine Challenge to challenge the most powerful of opponents and force them to fight you. There's even an ability called 'Gift of Life'. If the target died in the last round, you can bring them back to life to 0 hit points, and take an amount of damage equal to half your full hit point total. All very nice, IMO.
All very nice, IMO.
That does sound nice.
And yeah, paladins need not be called "paladins" in-game, anyway.
Damn rational arguments. :D
Thanks for the info, though. Much appreciated.
That does sound nice.
And yeah, paladins need not be called "paladins" in-game, anyway.
Yeah, wouldn't be a first in that regard. Can't imagine many Barbarians walk around referring to themselves as Barbarians. Or that Fighters call themselves Fighters. And Rogues certainly don't call themselves Rogues.
GK, that does sound nice.
Damn rational arguments. :D
Thanks for the info, though. Much appreciated.
No problem.
Incidentally, you mentioned something about At-Wills earlier. Been meaning to get around that, so here it is. - Bolstering Strike (At-Will). You attack and gain Temporary Hit Points.
- Enfeebling Strike (At-Will). You attack and, if you marked them, stick them with an attack penalty til the end of your next turn.
- Holy Strike (At-Will). Your attack deals Radiant damage (which Undead and other creatures are vulnerable to). If you marked the target then you deal extra damage.
- Valiant Strike (At-Will). You get a bonus to hit for every enemy adjacent to you. So if you're surrounded on all sides by eight bad guys, you get +8 to hit.
And on the subject of self-sacrificing Paladins, here're a couple more powers which I liked.
- Divine Bodyguard. Pick an ally within 5 squares. Til the end of the Encounter, or until you end the effect, you take half his damage.
- Benign Transposition. Switch places with an ally and attack his opponent.
- Noble Shield. Any area attacks that hit you automatically hit, but only do half damage to allies caught in the blast.
- Turn the Tide. An ally makes a saving throw against every effect he's suffering from.
- Angelic Intercession. You teleport next to an ally who's been hit and take the hit, instead.
- Death Ward. This one I really like. It can only be used on someone who's dying. You use up one of your Healing Surges but derive no benefit from it. Instead, the person dying is healed an amount equal to two of its Healing Surges plus the Paladin's Charisma modifier.
- Angelic Rescue. You can teleport an ally nearer to you.
There's also a bunch of Smites and such that provide additional bonuses to allies. I.E. you smite an opponent and give an ally an AC bonus. You smite an opponent and an ally can use a Healing Surge. And so on.
-I coined the term 'Divine Crusader/Divine Champion', if you'd prefer using that instead of..."Paladin".
Personally, I think "Paladin" should be a general term encompassing any champion of faith.
I'm with you. I always thought every church should have a base class "holy warrior". Call them what you will Paladin, Crusader, Champion, etc etc
At 2nd-level you gain access to a Utility Power called 'Martyr's Blessing', which essentially amounts to "If an adjacent ally is hit by an attack, you can choose to throw yourself in front of the attack" (with similar and more powerful versions of this at higher levels, like 'Strike Me Instead').
Wait a moment, are you telling us that you have to spend A POWER to recieve the damage another character was going to? I think I'm going to spend my day power to use the "Add 2 + 2" Power that is only available at 30th level.
Those kinds of things any character can do in my campaign, as long as they are in reach range and have the instantaneous action still free, they can do it on any moment.
Wait a moment, are you telling us that you have to spend A POWER to recieve the damage another character was going to?
Yes. And unlike 3E, you don't have to take a Prestige Class to do that sort of thing.
Yes. And unlike 3E, you don't have to take a Prestige Class to do that sort of thing.
Like I told you before, I have a simple houserule that covers it, and I've already mentioned it on the same post you've just quoted. My houserule is better than spending anything, and allows anybody to do it.
What's funny though is that, at least in 3e, clerics tend to be better holy warriors for a church than paladins.
speciality priests were one of the best things about 2e
Say, didn't you Blackguards used to be called anti-Paladins? That made more sense. Blackguard sounds more like a shoe polish . . Just a thought.
Interestingly, the term black-guard comes from the shoe-shine boys of London in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, who were notorious thieves.
Dear Brothers (and Sisters)-in-Arms,
What the hell . . .?
You spend your life devoted to the ideals of the God. You abstain from the earthy joys of your less spiritual comrades. You endeavor to lead a life that inspires, that enlightens, and that benefits the world you guard.
Then some jerk from HR comes along, slaps a nametag marked Defender on your armor plate, and you're wondering where in the hells your Detect Evil ability went. The next thing you know, every neutral good wannabe is telling you they're a paladin (excuse me, unaligned, unaligned, what was I thinking). Bane is claiming he has angels and paladins, and I think Cyric's trying to start his own damn order.
What the hell happend to this world? I understand Management put out a Fourth Version of the Operations Manual. Will someone in the know tell me if there is room for hope? Or should I vamoose to newmade worlds where it's understood a paladin is Lawful Good? Or do the At-Will powers and Encounter Powers give me reason to stay?
Change can really, really blow.
Seriously addled,
Joe Firebritches
Brother,
I've read further into the manual, they actually teach us how to do something to become more in the ideal of Knight Protector, a Beacon of Light in the tide of war.
In other words, 4E is closer to your houserule then 3E. And you're complaining why? Whatever the case, it's pretty nice for when you want to play in a game without a whole lot of houserules, or in an RPGA game, and being able to do that without making a heavy investment into a Prestige Class.
And I think those kinds of maneuvers should be outside "powers" because it's completely illogical that you need to spend a power to do it, and you also have to be a Paladin (what where you saying about having to spend levels in a PrC for it?).
Any character should be able to do it as much as he wants (even if he spends his whole life doing it on every combat round).
And I think those kinds of maneuvers should be outside "powers" because it's completely illogical that you need to spend a power to do it
Powers encompass all sorts of things. They're combat maneuvers, they're equivalent to class features, and so on.
and you also have to be a Paladin (what where you saying about having to spend levels in a PrC for it?)
Better then having to work your way into a Prestige Class, and a very specific Prestige Class at that. Here it's simply an available class feature. Paladin ability? Sure. Whatever the case, we have a case of a rule which is closer to your houserule then it is to 3E, in other words an improvement from your end of things, so why complain?
Any character should be able to do it as much as he wants (even if he spends his whole life doing it on every combat round).
Maybe. I assume they've playtested it, though, and realized that might be a bit to much. Otherwise that power would've been an At-Will.
And I think those kinds of maneuvers should be outside "powers" because it's completely illogical that you need to spend a power to do it, and you also have to be a Paladin (what where you saying about having to spend levels in a PrC for it?).
Any character should be able to do it as much as he wants (even if he spends his whole life doing it on every combat round).
I think he is referring to the body guard type classes that have an In Harms Way type class feature.
I do something similar in my game but in order to do it as a reaction you'd need the class feature elsewise you have to ready an action to jump in front of someone else's attack.
Readied attacks that are triggered by a condition are still readied (it would make archers too powerfull if they could attack spellcasters every time they start spellcasting).
Readied attacks that are triggered by a condition are still readied (it would make archers too powerfull if they could attack spellcasters every time they start spellcasting).
Only if they can fire every casting and carry out normal activities too. Otherwise, if your caster is attempting to cast unprotected and in the open while an archer is designated to shoot casters then the spellcaster deserves to be a pincushion. Now if the archer can shoot at other people and carry out readied attacks against the caster easily in the same turn that's another matter.
Now if the archer can shoot at other people and carry out readied attacks against the caster easily in the same turn that's another matter.
That's why it's still a readied action. Because it would mean he could shoot at the caster as an inmediate action before or after attacking as normal.
That's another thing I've changed. Most readied actions are now instantaneous actions. It makes Counterspell a viable option (this makes casters a lot weaker when there are enemy casters in the combat and revalorizes the non-casters who can go to kill the distracted spellcasters). Setting the spear against a charge is also an instantaneous action with my houserules.
Readied attacks that are triggered by a condition are still readied (it would make archers too powerfull if they could attack spellcasters every time they start spellcasting).
What about the feat from players guide to faerun that allows you to counterspell as a reaction? Also, for the ranged attack, if archers are where they should be they wouldn't be able to hear spell casting. So the readied action would be when I see someone come into view I shoot my arrows. Without some scouting I would consider it meta-gaming to ready an action to shoot the guy who looks like a wizard.
Theres a spell out of PHB2, can't remember the name right now, but depending on the version you cast you pull a sliver of time from the future to give you other actions. the lesser is a move, regular is a standard, greater is full round. This is cast as an interrupt that even interrupt spell casting.
When I play a wizard, I like to try to learn that spell even the lesser ones. I remember playing against a dragon and used the lesser to get behind cover when it started to use it's breath weapon.
That's why it's still a readied action. Because it would mean he could shoot at the caster as an inmediate action before or after attacking as normal.
RAW, when you use a readied action your initiative drops to when you acted so you don't end up with too many attacks for the person who readied their action.
RAW, when you use a readied action your initiative drops to when you acted so you don't end up with too many attacks for the person who readied their action.
I know that, that's why that action I kept readied instead on inmediate, because it would give archers extra attacks.
I know that, that's why that action I kept readied instead on inmediate, because it would give archers extra attacks.
Why would you change it for casters then?
Why would you change it for casters then?
The archer aiming at the Wizard always happens (even at my table). Counterspell I've done once or twice in two years. Instantaneous Counterspell makes it a more attractive option to use. It benefits all characters because an AoE spell that was going to hit them hard was suffused. It also reduces the expenditure of healing by the cleric, who can concentrate less on being a medic, it also helps non-casters by affecting the battle more (distracted Wizard being whacked by a Fighter, goodbye Wizard), because the party caster is distracting the enemy spellcaster.
Spellcasters in general (and Wizards and Sorcerers in particular, you can't imagine how good Counterspeller a Sorcerer with Improved Counterspell becomes with these houserule and on that he is insuperable) are going to spend less time killing many things with spells because they will focus more time stoping the enemy spellcasters from harming their party (those who never do it you can kick from your games because those players are interested in themselves first)
Those are things 4th edition was aiming for. I did them by changing just when and how Counterspell can be used. That's why 4th edition was a waste of development time, they just needed to fix some things like this.
What I hear?
Alediran making non-casters more useful?
Did I hear right?
The archer aiming at the Wizard always happens (even at my table). Counterspell I've done once or twice in two years. Instantaneous Counterspell makes it a more attractive option to use. It benefits all characters because an AoE spell that was going to hit them hard was suffused. It also reduces the expenditure of healing by the cleric, who can concentrate less on being a medic, it also helps non-casters by affecting the battle more (distracted Wizard being whacked by a Fighter, goodbye Wizard), because the party caster is distracting the enemy spellcaster.
Spellcasters in general (and Wizards and Sorcerers in particular, you can't imagine how good Counterspeller a Sorcerer with Improved Counterspell becomes with these houserule and on that he is insuperable) are going to spend less time killing many things with spells because they will focus more time stoping the enemy spellcasters from harming their party (those who never do it you can kick from your games because those players are interested in themselves first)
Those are things 4th edition was aiming for. I did them by changing just when and how Counterspell can be used. That's why 4th edition was a waste of development time, they just needed to fix some things like this.
What I hear?
Alediran making non-casters more useful?
Did I hear right?
It really looks like you've had it easier for casters, me personally, I really enjoy playing abjuerers and once I know there is a caster present.......I counter everything he or she does neutralizing the wizard to allow the party to do everything else.
It really looks like you've had it easier for casters, me personally, I really enjoy playing abjuerers and once I know there is a caster present.......I counter everything he or she does neutralizing the wizard to allow the party to do everything else.
And I agree with you. But sometimes your Wizard may need to do something else during his turn so he can't spend his readied action to counterspell (that also means you are a sitting duck as a wizard while you wait for the enemy spellcaster to cast). Vaarsuvius said it: "Counterspell is a legitimate, if seldom used, mean of neutralizing a spellcaster." With Counterspell as instantaneous action it becomes more attractive, so Wizards are going to spend more time counterspelling in general.
What's funny though is that, at least in 3e, clerics tend to be better holy warriors for a church than paladins.
-Agreed. The Paladin's only plus is having a built-in mount come in at later levels. I, personally, don't even like mounts, so...
-Agreed. The Paladin's only plus is having a built-in mount come in at later levels. I, personally, don't even like mounts, so...
Pathfinder has alternative built-inn class options for Paladins like you, who don't want a mount.
Pathfinder has alternative built-inn class options for Paladins like you, who don't want a mount.
-What do they get?
-Not that it really matters, so I still wouldn't play a Paladin, anyway.
-What do they get?
-Not that it really matters, so I still wouldn't play a Paladin, anyway.
I love paladins as in LG... (can't belive I have to specify that now days :nonono
And for the record there's like 3 class features that replace a special mounts ...
-What do they get?
-Not that it really matters, so I still wouldn't play a Paladin, anyway.
This is it:
Divine Bond (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin
forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one
of two forms.
The first bond allows her to enhance her weapon as a
standard action, provided the weapon is her deity’s favored
weapon. When called, the spirit enhances the weapon,
causing it to shed light as a torch for 1 minute per paladin
level. At 5th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 bonus.
For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another
+1 bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level. These bonuses
can be added to the weapon or they can be used to add any
of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant
energy, defending, disruption, f laming, f laming burst,
holy, keen, merciful, and speed. These bonuses do not stack
with any properties the weapon already has. If the weapon is
not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added
before any other abilities can be added. The celestial spirit
imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other
than the paladin, but resumes giving bonuses if returned to
the paladin. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double
weapon. A paladin can use this ability once per day at 5th
level, and one additional time per day for every four levels
beyond 5th, to a total of four times per day at 17th level.
If a weapon bearing a celestial spirit is destroyed, the
paladin loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until she
gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day
period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon
damage rolls.
The second bond allows a paladin to gain the service of
an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve
her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a
heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for
a Small paladin).
Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may
magically call her mount from the celestial realms in
which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of
a level equal to one-third the paladin’s level. The mount
immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains
for 2 hours per paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time
as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it
is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular
mount from service.
Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health,
regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The
mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had
when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration
(calling) effect.
Should the paladin’s mount die, it immediately
disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying.
The paladin may not summon another mount for 30 days or
until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even
if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During
this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack
and weapon damage rolls.
- Death Ward. This one I really like. It can only be used on someone who's dying. You use up one of your Healing Surges but derive no benefit from it. Instead, the person dying is healed an amount equal to two of its Healing Surges plus the Paladin's Charisma modifier.
Stuff like that makes me want to try out 4E paladin, definitely.
Still like those Paladins, though.
Pokeballs.... Duh!
*pounds head against wall at reference to game and anime that shall not be named*
Throws Krynn at offending Saraph.
Sorry, profound dislike for the show and the cards are sold in the store I work for. Further references will result in larger objects being thrown.
I've always liked Paladins because I see them as military-minded lay people blessed by their Faith. I know the guidebooks usually paint them along the lines of the Christian military orders of old, usually incorporating monastic traditions (such as the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience). I prefer a more everyday man plays Hammer of God. Think Jim Butcher's Knights of the Cross as a more recent example. To be honest (and to use a video game example), I found using a multi-class cleric character helped me to do more of what I imagined for my paladin characters than the straightforward paladins.
Still like those Paladins, though.
Interesting example and I like paladins well enough as long as someone else plays them. Lawful Good, well someone needs to play beacon of virtue and someone needs to be able to compromise virtue to a limited degree (ends do not always justify the means, sometimes yes, every time no) in the name of necessity. Long as the paladins don't overly prevent me from doing the latter, I'm happy to let them be the former.
*pounds head against wall at reference to game and anime that shall not be named*
Throws Krynn at offending Saraph.
Sorry, profound dislike for the show and the cards are sold in the store I work for. Further references will result in larger objects being thrown.
Blame it on Order Of The Stick....
On the real though, I like that feature I think it;s on either PHBII of Complete Champion that when you charge and smite the smite is doble your paladin level and if you miss it doesn't count as used....
love it! I didn't got tattooed Torm's Holy Symbol for kicks you know ;)Blame it on Order Of The Stick....
On the real though, I like that feature I think it;s on either PHBII of Complete Champion that when you charge and smite the smite is doble your paladin level and if you miss it doesn't count as used....
Charging Smite is actually triple! ;) Double the pally level plus regular smite damage. Add that with swift action Rhino's Rush......enough said.
It looks something like this-
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=83754
(except without the blind-fold. Though they do say Justice is blind!!)
The Celestial Charger is a good one, too. You do an extra 2d6 Radiant damage on a charge when mounted on one. It also ignores movement penalties for Difficult Terrain AND can run over water. To top it off, it's Lawful Good.
This is it:
Divine Bond (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin
forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one
of two forms.
The first bond allows her to enhance her weapon as a
standard action, provided the weapon is her deity’s favored
weapon. When called, the spirit enhances the weapon,
causing it to shed light as a torch for 1 minute per paladin
level. At 5th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 bonus.
For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another
+1 bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level. These bonuses
can be added to the weapon or they can be used to add any
of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant
energy, defending, disruption, f laming, f laming burst,
holy, keen, merciful, and speed. These bonuses do not stack
with any properties the weapon already has. If the weapon is
not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added
before any other abilities can be added. The celestial spirit
imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other
than the paladin, but resumes giving bonuses if returned to
the paladin. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double
weapon. A paladin can use this ability once per day at 5th
level, and one additional time per day for every four levels
beyond 5th, to a total of four times per day at 17th level.
If a weapon bearing a celestial spirit is destroyed, the
paladin loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until she
gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day
period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon
damage rolls.
-This, I like. I did the same thing in my own campaign, but with the Samurai. Reworked the entire class.
-That said, however, I still don't think I'll ever be playing a Paladin. Give me a martial-themed Cleric, of a martial-themed deity, and I'm even better.
No, but almost. The character is going to go Divine Champion after that.
Still not a cleric.:P
Still not a cleric.:P
That character is more like a Paladin of Corellon. And at this moment is also the not-yet-on-duty Arms-Major of Cormanthor (two sessions ago he found the Warblade hidden in Castle Maerimydra) in my campaign.
That character is more like a Paladin of Corellon.
LOL, I understand what you are going for.
No, but almost. The character is going to go Divine Champion after that.
-Close, but not cigar.
That character is more like a Paladin of Corellon.
Thats what I always liked about the divine champ PrC, allowing you to play paladins of other faiths.
Pokeballs.... Duh!
hahahahahahahaha, you owe me a keyboard
Now to come up with a suitable name.
In honor of this thread, I am going to create a Paladin of Tharizdun for my first 4E game.
Now to come up with a suitable name.
How about Steve?
Just like in 3E, players are encouraged to play good and unaligned characters, leaving the evil alignments to the villains.
yeah, but lots of kiddies like to play baddies
How about Steve?
-Steve isn't a good name for a Paladin of Tharizdun.
In honor of this thread, I am going to create a Paladin of Tharizdun for my first 4E game.
Now to come up with a suitable name.
Your Paladin's name is unpronounable in the common tongue, but it sounds like 9 seconds of combined laughter and horrified shrieking, followed by abrupt silence.
Your Paladin's name is unpronounable in the common tongue, but it sounds like 9 seconds of combined laughter and horrified shrieking, followed by abrupt silence.
-Is this Paladin the Artist Formerly known as Prince, by any chance?
[Character Concept]
But unfortunately Helm is now dead... struck down by the god of "justice". My would be paladin has now become completely disillusioned, and after several months of reclusion he has become thoroughly mad in his outlook, though you would not realize it unless you engaged him in lengthy conversation.
But he has answers now. There is a god that has been oppressed and chained for what amounts to almost an eternity.. wronged by the same "gods" that killed Helm.
Now he has started his own holy crusade to free the chained one from his unjust imprisonment so that he might better rule over the multiverse. Ushering in an age of justice, strength, freedom, and prosperity.
And like all holy wars, sacrifices have to be made for that which is right to triumph. And right now, there are too many weaklings and pigs still worshipping the worthless despicable gods and their worthless despicable servants. They must ALL die if Tharizdun is to be liberated
Join my paladin on his crusade... and prove that you aren't a spineless maggot worthy only of a shameful death.[/Character Concept]
I did like the Champion of Corellon PrC too
so did i
I actually prefer playing neutral-type characters myself typically. I tend to avoid baddies as that makes the other players automatically assume I'm going to backstab them. I would have loved being able to play a LN paladin of helm.
[Character Concept]
But unfortunately Helm is now dead... struck down by the god of "justice". My would be paladin has now become completely disillusioned, and after several months of reclusion he has become thoroughly mad in his outlook, though you would not realize it unless you engaged him in lengthy conversation.
But he has answers now. There is a god that has been oppressed and chained for what amounts to almost an eternity.. wronged by the same "gods" that killed Helm.
Now he has started his own holy crusade to free the chained one from his unjust imprisonment so that he might better rule over the multiverse. Ushering in an age of justice, strength, freedom, and prosperity.
And like all holy wars, sacrifices have to be made for that which is right to triumph. And right now, there are too many weaklings and pigs still worshipping the worthless despicable gods and their worthless despicable servants. They must ALL die if Tharizdun is to be liberated
Join my paladin on his crusade... and prove that you aren't a spineless maggot worthy only of a shameful death.[/Character Concept]
*a goblin squire scuttles between the paladins plated boots* Yess master,
oh, me relatess with ye. Sspineless maggotss. All of them dessspicable. Lord your bassterdsword has been cleanssed! Ready for gutting more pigssses! Eek! *gives him a unholy blade*
I think the Alignment question is a bit more immediate for the Paladin. The Paladin is literally the Knight in Shining Armor (even when he's the knight in studded leather armor). He adheres to the principles of chivalry in a rogue-infested, fire-ball peppered world. He's the guy trying to save the orphans while his buddies are boosting the poor box behind his back. He's the character agonizing over the right choice, yet never hesitating to sacrifice himself for what is Good. If you want to defend the innocent, thrust yourself into the breach against overwhelming odds, and live by an iron code when others are selling their souls for gold (or quest items), Paladin is the class to play.
I've never fully bought into the multi-axis alignment split. Even folks starting in the true neutral slot start to pick up a tendency Lightward or Darkward. Yet in a fantasy world where ethics is a matter of perspective, having a character class bound by Law and Good, adhering strictly to its principles, seems (to me) necessary. Even if player characters don't enjoy that role, it provides a nice contrast and an excellent source of storytelling conflict in a handy NPC.
For myself, I enjoy the--ah-- unmentionable alternate world mentioned frequently on these message boards lately. I don't want to offend our hosts, but I prefer my paladins lawful Good, detecting evil and smiting it. Just my preference. Safe to say, that doesn't eliminate a healthy discussion of just what is Good when Tyr, Ilmater, and a few of the other "good" powers are no longer seeing eye to eye.
But paladins of Bane? Cyric? Shar? Hell no. Sorry. No. Freaking. Way.
Just my opinion.
Nah, Paladins are administrators and tax collectors working for Charles the Great called Charles Magnus or Charlemagne or Charlemain. They were his companions but were more pencil pushers than sword swingers. Thought that guy Roland was pretty good.
Course even when they are the knight in shiny armor in a world of knights in shiny armor, there is more than one way to do it right. The Eddings' Elysium has a great foursome of Knights (read Paladins) who are as different from one another due to the Orders they follow as you could ever find here on earth. The Templars and Hospitlars, Knights of Malta and the Teutonic Knights just to name a few.
Sparhawk was my favorite. More rogue than the Grey Mouser and a better spellcaster to boot! Well, okay maybe not a better rogue than the Mouser, but he was a Grey Guard before the PClass was invented.
That's just coming from two sources (one of them the original source of the word). Pull out Bazel from The War God's Own. He starts out as a barbarian and not only figures out how to make raging more lethal, but he also becomes a most untraditional paladin of that world's version of Heironious. Even his own order attacks him on sight for sullying their God's name. Then he thumps 'em good and the God himself shows up and chastises them more. Course Horsestealer Hrydani are just an evil creation. Can't wait to see if a RPG is made of the setting! :evillaugh
Pokeballs.... Duh!
"I choose you Goblinstomperchu!"
*a goblin squire scuttles between the paladins plated boots* Yess master,
oh, me relatess with ye. Sspineless maggotss. All of them dessspicable. Lord your bassterdsword has been cleanssed! Ready for gutting more pigssses! Eek! *gives him a unholy blade*
This is just awesome.
I want a goblin squire now.
-Steve isn't a good name for a Paladin of Tharizdun.
how about Frank?
In honor of this thread, I am going to create a Paladin of Tharizdun for my first 4E game.
Now to come up with a suitable name.
*grackle* *thbbbbbt* *gerrrrrk* *cough* Endbringer, the Third. It has the nice mix of Madness, Chaos, and Destruction, with just a pinch of sanity at the end!
Your Paladin's name is unpronounable in the common tongue, but it sounds like 9 seconds of combined laughter and horrified shrieking, followed by abrupt silence.
But, you've got to include ", Jr." because Juniors are just funnier.
how about Frank?
-That works.
What's Wrong with Steve?
-It's not a good name for a Paladin of Tharizdun.
How about Frank Stevens the Third, Paladin Detective of Tharizdun.
It was a rainy day, an ominous thunder in the distance. I was polishing off a grilled elf meat steak when I heard a knock at the door.
"Come in!" I said.
The door swung open and I was greeted by the most beautiful woman I had ever seen, but I couldn't help but feel a certain cold manipulative impulse from behind her piercing eyes.
"Is this the office of Frank Stevens?"
"Yes, I am Frank Stevens."
"It's a pleasure to meet you, Mr. Stevens. You can call me Rhee."
I knew then and there than I was dealing with a dangerous woman. Was she a damsel in distress? Was she crying out for help? Or was she just another broad trying to force preconceived notions of alignment and group dynamics on me?
Common sense told me to stay out... to not get involved..
But the twisted black mass of pure elemental evil in my chest said YES YES YES!
"Cigarette?"
"Thank you, Mr. Stevens."
"It's a pleasure to meet you, Mr. Stevens. You can call me Rhee."
Rhee? Hmmm...
Rhee? Hmmm...
Yes. She is stuck in an abusive relationship with a criminal overlord from the Moonshaes who goes by the name of "Viscount Carson". Apparently he was banished from the isles for attempting to steal the secrets of magic from Alabaster Crowman, a mage of ill-repute.
It's all quite shady.
10? What are the rest?She should be restated as Wiz/Sorc/Ultimate Magus, since that PrC seems to be created especially for her.
Yeah, Ultimate Magus just made me drool when I read it. The the LG campaign staff banned it. "No free use of Metamagic for you!" is pretty much their rallying cry. If they weren't 100% sure there would be an uprising they'd get rid of Metamagic Rods. *sigh* Guess I just have to settle for War Weaver. :embarrass :P
-That's one thing that- theoretically- DDI can do really good. Imagine this: A big ol' database of NPCs, with stats, that can be changed as new classes/PrCs are published.
hmmm.....that would be cool
Me personally in my own life tend to stick to a more lawful approach to life and obviously since I don't kick puppies or eat babies I consider myself good.
Mmmmmmm, babies.
...I do see Paladin's of freedom, slaughter, and tyranny as useful and fitting. Bane, Cyric, and even Talos have defenders of their faith which is a paladin so I can understand why they would add the alternate alignments, but at the same time I think they should be restricted to the extreme alignments LG, CG, LE, and CE.
-Not to beat the a dead horse, but the term Paladin, as applied within the context of fantasy, is almost universally Lawful Good. The argument that you are making (not to poke fun at you or anything) is that pizza and tacos are both the same thing, because they are both hand-held foods that hold meats and/or vegetables on baked dough. Pizza =/= tacos.
-Oh, and just so you know, in 4e, the CG and LE alignments have been removed. From your list there, only LG and CE remain.
Kinda... I got the feeling that CG=good, LE-ish=evil. LN and CN got the stick.
-All neutral alignments "got the stick". Neutral has been replaced with "unaligned", which is more or less the same as "neutral".
-LG seems to be the new "really, shiny, paragon" good, while good is a little less shiny. Likewise, CE is "murderous, really evil" evil, while evil is a little less...evil.
-As I've said before, I don't agree with that, so...
And as for paladins, the section in the PHB about the class still sticks heavily towards the old trope about paladins being warriors of goodness and justice even though that is technically no longer the case (just look at the "class quote" at the very beginning).
LG in 4E isn't "more good" than regular G, as per the core rulebooks.
And she continues to flaunt the fact that amazon sent her the core books and not me
-We've been through this already. She deserves them more than you.
sure, but mine are on the way, baby!!!!!
sure, but mine are on the way, baby!!!!!
-And, the UPS man can theoretically steal your package, or get into an accident, causing packages to fall off the truck, and plummet into a river. Don't count your chickens before they hatch. :P
-Now that you should feel all bad inside...:P
-And, the UPS man can theoretically steal your package, or get into an accident, causing packages to fall off the truck, and plummet into a river. Don't count your chickens before they hatch. :P
-Now that you should feel all bad inside...:P
Ha. Got 'em today
-And, the UPS man can theoretically steal your package, or get into an accident, causing packages to fall off the truck, and plummet into a river. Don't count your chickens before they hatch. :P
-Now that you should feel all bad inside...:P
Ha. Got 'em today
They are nicely done actually. I am agreeing with Rin I think on this one
Hee hee.
Be forewarned.-Not to beat the a dead horse, but the term Paladin, as applied within the context of fantasy, is almost universally Lawful Good.
Oh come on, you know better than that. I don't want to see you thrashed again.
Oh come on, you know better than that. I don't want to see you thrashed again.
-I don't believe I know what you mean, and I don't believe I've ever been thrashed, either.
I have always wanted a "paladin" like class for all alignments. I never understood why a CG deity wouldn't have a holy warrior
-He/she/it would. They wouldn't be 'Paladins', however.
Oh shh...
-And how does that alter the truth of the statement that I made?
"Not to beat the a dead horse, but the term Paladin, as applied within the context of fantasy, is almost universally Lawful Good."
"-He/she/it would. They wouldn't be 'Paladins', however."
-This was not the statement you were replying to.
Why is it directly underneath that post then?
-You're response of "Oh come on, you know better than that. I don't want to see you thrashed again" was to this statement: "Not to beat the a dead horse, but the term Paladin, as applied within the context of fantasy, is almost universally Lawful Good.".
I have always wanted a "paladin" like class for all alignments. I never understood why a CG deity wouldn't have a holy warrior
-He/she/it would. They wouldn't be 'Paladins', however.
Oh shh...
Yeah.
My question is, though, will we actually see Knightly Orders of all the gods now? Paladins of Tymora for example?
-If so, that's a DDI thing.
It was a rather problematic thing in practice, though, from everything I saw. Paladins of Sune that I saw played tended to either be good Sunites, or good Paladins - if they were doing a good job as one, they weren't as the other (I never saw any Selunite Paladins played, but I imagine it would be much the same way).
Sune paints her toenails as the Paladins fight and die for universal love.
Anyone who wants it, if the DDI Game Table gets up and running and it works well, I well run a 3E Realms game using 4E rules.
I might very well play it if you do that.
If you want to play in the "core setting", I'd be happy to join you there, too.
I thought it was a Prachett thing.
Sune paints her toenails as the Paladins fight and die for universal love.
I'm not quite sure I get the joke, but defending, fighting for and possibly dying for ideals such as love and beauty are definitely things a traditional paladin can get behind. Sune is the supreme protector of love and beauty, so why shouldn't she gift their most ardent defenders? Just because they differ on some political issues (and imo law vs chaos is in many ways mirrors political splits) doesn't mean she doesn't appreciate what they do, and feels she should reward them for it.
As for Selune, the oldest deity of light and good, and one side of the most ancient good/evil conflict in a setting NOT having a paladin order is what was surprising, prior to CoV. As goddess of the moon, the light in the darkness, she should be on the lips of every paladin who treads a dangerous route, descends in a monster-infested dungeon, or battles the servants of Shar.
I'm not quite sure I get the joke, but defending, fighting for and possibly dying for ideals such as love and beauty are definitely things a traditional paladin can get behind.
-This is one of the..."core tenets" of chivalry, which knights practiced, Paladins which are derivatives thereof.
I might very well play it if you do that.
If you want to play in the "core setting", I'd be happy to join you there, too.
I got so impatient the other day to get a game off the ground already that I went and downloaded the full version of Fantasy Grounds, ano online game table program, as well as a demo for another one called Battlegrounds. Hopefully I can get a game going with my old friends using one or the other til the D&D Game Table comes out. Til then, I want to play at least one 4E campaign and maybe a second 3E campaign as well. Well, not a full-fledged campaign in the latter case. What I want to do is play a couple super-adventures. Specifically Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave, Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land, Anauroch: The Empire of Shade, and Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. When it comes to the 4E games, a friend of mine wants to run all the 4E adventures that're being put out (Keep on the Shadowfell, Pyramid of Shadows, etc), but with the Forgotten Realms conversion notes from Dragon.
Indeed, paladins of Sune make perfect sense to me, for reasons already stated here.
Reminds me of The Complete Paladin's Handbook from AD&D. There were about two pages on Courtly Love.
When it comes to the 4E games, a friend of mine wants to run all the 4E adventures that're being put out (Keep on the Shadowfell, Pyramid of Shadows, etc), but with the Forgotten Realms conversion notes from Dragon.
I'm dying to try out those modules in the core setting.
Sorry, I was making a Discworld reference. The Goddess of Love being essentially a Aphrodite figure whose concerned about vanity and exterior beauty while mortals attribute the more sublime things to her.
Don't be sorry. That's kind of funny.
I'm dying to try out those modules in the core setting.
Yeah, they look very good. It's pretty nice how they're making these nine adventures to carry a party from level 1-30. My friend appreciates that, as it's a huge time saver for him. That and he's been raving about how much he likes Keep on the Shadowfell (although, naturally, he hasn't told me any specifics about the adventure. And I've only skimmed through the conversion on Dungeon).
Yeah, they look very good. It's pretty nice how they're making these nine adventures to carry a party from level 1-30. My friend appreciates that, as it's a huge time saver for him. That and he's been raving about how much he likes Keep on the Shadowfell (although, naturally, he hasn't told me any specifics about the adventure. And I've only skimmed through the conversion on Dungeon).
i'll have to check the modules out
Yeah, they look very good. It's pretty nice how they're making these nine adventures to carry a party from level 1-30. My friend appreciates that, as it's a huge time saver for him. That and he's been raving about how much he likes Keep on the Shadowfell (although, naturally, he hasn't told me any specifics about the adventure. And I've only skimmed through the conversion on Dungeon).
-Ouch...Nine adventures as $24.99 each...There is a lot of stuff in there, though. I like the new adventure format, if those are the new adventure books, with the folder, and the booklets, and whatever.
-Ouch...Nine adventures as $24.99 each...There is a lot of stuff in there, though. I like the new adventure format, if those are the new adventure books, with the folder, and the booklets, and whatever.
They do look rather interesting. I like the format as well
I'm going to see if I can get the adventures at a discount.
regardless of Lord Karsus' objection, you should get a borders reward card
I'm going to see if I can get the adventures at a discount.
-You might want to wait until the second adventure comes out. The prices on the first will probably drop.
regardless of Lord Karsus' objection, you should get a borders reward card
-Don't listen to him. He's a madman.
-Don't listen to him. He's a madman.
talk about the pot calling the kettle black.....
talk about the pot calling the kettle black.....
-Am I Karsus the Mad? No, no I'm not. I'm Lord Karsus.
About 33% off on Amazon.
Thank you for the heads-up.
-You might want to wait until the second adventure comes out. The prices on the first will probably drop.
Well in any case, I don't have too long to wait, since it's supposed to be out this month.
Well in any case, I don't have too long to wait, since it's supposed to be out this month.
and H3 the month after that I think
Well in any case, I don't have too long to wait, since it's supposed to be out this month.
-Yeah, no, I'm sure there'll be good stuff. Just wait though, you know? I'm sure there'll be a real good deal in the future.
and H3 the month after that I think
-Is there any reason those adventures have a 'H' designation?