- In the wake of the Spellplague, I could certainly see places that got hit hard entering into a period of social secularism, and perhaps even skepticism of deities, in that they are divine entities, rather than powerful- but very mortal- entities, very akin to what the Athar believe.
- Silverymoon, which was always a a racially diverse city, if I recall, is now primarily an Elven city ("Eladrin"). As such, the Humanistic overtones that the city used to have might be diminishing.
- With the restructuring of various deities and churches and such, perhaps a new wave of hermeneuticism has been sparked.
This word intrigues me, I've not encounteted it before? Is it related to hermetism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics
And of course there's the sciences. Lantan and its gadgetry and gunpowder, sunk. Chessenta and its mathematics and astronomy destroyed. Mulhorand and its steam power, lost and ruined.
It's a real Dark Ages.
it's a waste that they killed places like Cimbar, Mezro, Lantan, Hlondeth, I think they have a better playing potential alive than just as dungeons
in our world there are many philosophical groups, like Doomguard of Shar (beside Ash, Dust ...), Ciphers began in Yehimal, where is the Valley of Aaqa also, the variation of Dustmen exists in Unther, the Cyclic philosophy of fey, etc. many more. PCs have the possibility to gain a lot from the power of belief.
as for the Athar/Godsmen groups, they should be there at least since ToT, if not descended from Imaskar/Netheril
...where is the Valley of Aaqa...
Did you actually place the Vale of Aaqa somewhere in the Realms, or is it just some kind of hypothetical question for those guys who search for the answer?
The chance of the souls in the Fugue to reach their patrons destination has reduced as well. So faithless philosophies could see a rise, especially onder disgruntled clergies who's gods have been destroyed or lost. In addition certain actions of the gods resulted in the suffering the Spellplague caused. The extent of this story might not be common knowledge but for the servants of the gods of "camp lawful good" and "camp chaotic evil"/"camp shadow". But the gods could get a lot of flak from the commoners caught in the middle of the plague (Shars machinations).
Shar will have gained a lot though... Lots of losses from the Spellplague leads to suffering and her clergy will still be there to whisper corrupting but soothing words of vengeance into the commoners ears. Potential faithless could choose her fatih instead if they can see immediate gain somewhere.
A lot of philosophical thought probably went down the tube along with Chessenta. All the educated and enlightened cities were wiped out, leaving only Luthcheq. The philosopher Heptios would be dead, and the rationalist Heptain extinct. The Numbers Cult probably had their equations blow up to infinity during the Spellplague (spit!). (Much as mine are doing right now, grr!)
And of course there's the sciences. Lantan and its gadgetry and gunpowder, sunk. Chessenta and its mathematics and astronomy destroyed. Mulhorand and its steam power, lost and ruined.
It's a real Dark Ages.
Well, it's not like Chessenta and Lantan were the only places that valued science and philosophy, were they?
I see a lot of disgruntled clerics. Not especially from gods that were killed, but specifically from gods that revealed themselves as another god. For example, Sehanine Moonbow being Selûne.
Imagine that you're a cleric and you've devoted your life to a certain god. Some of your friends/allies have given their lives in service to this god. Suddenly, the god tells you that they've been lying to you, and they're REALLY another god (sometimes a god with a radically different outlook on life and expectations on how people should act).
For instance, I'm Catholic, to me, it would be like finding out that Jesus was ACTUALLY just an aspect of Odin. I could fill a few pages with things that would confuse me, things that would make me angry, and things I might find intriguing.
Now, the cleric who's fought for his entire life and lost loved ones for one god, since has found out that some of his friends have given their lives in causes the deity does not entirely support anymore. And, as it happens in real life, imagine if two churches of similar alignment get into an argument that leads to a battle... then imagine that it's revealed that the god of each sect is actually the SAME GUY! How do you reconcile this? How do you continue to support a god that will interfere quite often (respectively) in other matters, but will stand back and watch this happen?
My two cents.
I think Suin Bahhar might have a great point that I hadn't thought of before.
I see a lot of disgruntled clerics. Not especially from gods that were killed, but specifically from gods that revealed themselves as another god. For example, Sehanine Moonbow being Selûne.
Imagine that you're a cleric and you've devoted your life to a certain god. Some of your friends/allies have given their lives in service to this god. Suddenly, the god tells you that they've been lying to you, and they're REALLY another god (sometimes a god with a radically different outlook on life and expectations on how people should act).
For instance, I'm Catholic, to me, it would be like finding out that Jesus was ACTUALLY just an aspect of Odin. I could fill a few pages with things that would confuse me, things that would make me angry, and things I might find intriguing.
Now, the cleric who's fought for his entire life and lost loved ones for one god, since has found out that some of his friends have given their lives in causes the deity does not entirely support anymore. And, as it happens in real life, imagine if two churches of similar alignment get into an argument that leads to a battle... then imagine that it's revealed that the god of each sect is actually the SAME GUY! How do you reconcile this? How do you continue to support a god that will interfere quite often (respectively) in other matters, but will stand back and watch this happen?
My two cents.
That's exactly which causes some problems for me thinking the elvish way. Sun Elves would ****** off by the Seldarine, if someone revealed to them that the hated humans and they shared the same gods all the time but this gods did nothing to bring peace between the species. Nope, they made business as usual, let humans pray to them for a good time, gave them luck (in form of burned woods but good farmland, their own realms, and let them steal magic, create stupid RSEs like well this Netheril thing and wasn't Selûne one of their godesses?,...) and then under another name, let elves pray for good times and look unto them how the country they loved changed and got into the hands of humans.
Form the perspective of an elf I would surely let go of such false gods. So I think that some elves would become more seperated from the Seldarine and maybe some would search for alternatives (not that there are many left).
If Dragons play a new and more major role in the Realms now, I think that Tiamat and Paladin would also play a more prominent role and so the philosophy of dragons, dragonbeings and the principles in their conflict (wasn't something about a the coming of a new Dragonfall War mentioned, is there anything now in 4Ed?).
I asked Ed if the Realms had some philosophies like in Planescape that aren't so tied to gods, but no answer so far
-Well, of course there would be. It'd be impossible for them not to exist.
Did you actually place the Vale of Aaqa somewhere in the Realms, or is it just some kind of hypothetical question for those guys who search for the answer?
I wasn't the DM when we visited it, it was somewhere in Kara-Tur, southwestern Tabot I think
but I did create a part of our cosmology, called Aaqa Lu'tiia (original Vaati home), it's is a ''rogue'' layer of Celestia, more ancient/lawful than the seven official ones, you can see it in it's name, ''Aaaqa Lu'tiia'' means ''order'' in syro-arameic (manichaean) language, well it's pronounced that way, the spelling something else. The other seven layers have gnostic (archons) names because they're younger. The older layer that dropped to Mechanus, Airyana-Vaeja (Mnesinous in Planescape), has a Zoroastric name. I like to have the names of the planes/layers holding hidden history, not just greek/norse names
http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=105
I wasn't the DM when we visited it, it was somewhere in Kara-Tur, southwestern Tabot I think
but I did create a part of our cosmology, called Aaqa Lu'tiia (original Vaati home), it's is a ''rogue'' layer of Celestia, more ancient/lawful than the seven official ones, you can see it in it's name, ''Aaaqa Lu'tiia'' means ''order'' in syro-arameic (manichaean) language, well it's pronounced that way, the spelling something else. The other seven layers have gnostic (archons) names because they're younger. The older layer that dropped to Mechanus, Airyana-Vaeja (Mnesinous in Planescape), has a Zoroastric name. I like to have the names of the planes/layers holding hidden history, not just greek/norse names
http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=105
Interesting. Another question. Who are the rulers of those planes/layers? Still the Hebdomad?
I'm personally working on an appropriate 3e cosmology for a while now, though I'm not really getting all together. Inspired by Dicefreaks, I placed several Aeons (from gnosticism) as the chaotic good rulers as well as the progenitors of the Eladrin (similar to the baernaloth or obyriths; more the latter, since aeons and eladrin are two distinct races - as are obyriths and tanar'ri.)
As for the lawful good guys, I'm still not sure. The canon Hebdomad doesn't fit. On the one hand the Amesha Spentas would be a good choice, but on the other hand I don't like it that they're exclusively associated with zoroastrianism. Anyway, so much to do but no time at all.
basically still the Hebdomad, with few minor changes, e.g. don't like Zaphkiel, replaced him with Aesthesis-Ouch-Epi-Ptoe etc.
I look into the notes I have about it for more details
I didn't change much in the lawful part of the universe, except for the greater application of the ''Rule of Three'', why do you think they don't fit?
As I took the angelic names (and also angels in general) as the paragons of NG, which are my replacement of the Guardinals. Imo such perfect shining humanoids just fit better as counterpart to the daemons. In addition, the aasimon (solars etc.) are still present in the entire Realms Above.
The archons are still the predominant lawful good race though, but as I said, their rulers are not clear to me, yet.
What's zorrowhatisname?
Wait... You where describing the proper rulers or guardians of the Great Tree Cosmology's celestial realms?
No, more a modified Great Wheel cosmology, though if you follow the link you can see that Jiggawha's is quite a bit different.
What's zorrowhatisname?
It's an old monetheistic relgion from modern day Persia that had great influence on modern day religions.
Early Jewish beliefs were based for a large part on the oral traditions of these cults, resulting later on the acqknowledgement of divine messegngers as angels and daemons.
Oh, and if one makes Fearuns Cosmology the center of the multiverse then Asmodeus and Shar are the driving force behind most of the planar changes but the details of the shift are vague at best. It makes no sense for an archdevil to be steering the abyss to a different place.
What's zorrowhatisname?
-Zoroastrianism. An ancient religion in which Judaism metamorphisized many of it's core tenets, which, in turn, was metamorphasized by Christianity and Islam as well.
-Zoroastrianism. An ancient religion in which Judaism metamorphisized many of it's core tenets, which, in turn, was metamorphasized by Christianity and Islam as well.
Thanks. It's all clear to me now.
So its the first philosophy to arrange the metaphysical reams of the divine. It even believed the physical world was created from the Order imposed by Ahura Mazda, so the current world is divine aswell.
This is a nearly a prerequisite for all philosophers in Fearun, as the world they tread on IS Chauntea. But their understanding of the layered constellation of the divine realms is a reality, and so are external influences from beyond those realms... Perhaps the strong believe in free will typical in (most of) the Realms is also a result of the zoroastrianic tenents of duty to accept divine-gifted life and its plights. The choice of a patron has to fit in there somewhere, which must be imposed on everyone living somewhere in their lifetime.
Some people might believe they are beneath the notice of most of the divine and might hold more manikiismic views (those who believed the world was created from the stuff of Satan and everything around you was corrupted) believing Shar was first and she was the stuff all was made of.
Thanks. It's all clear to me now.
-Nirvana? Enlightenment? :P
So furtilety cults where widespread in those earliest days of civilization, and I like to think the Realms equivalents where long gone aswell, but somehow remained powerful and become more refined among the Realms civilisations. Just look at the racial pantheons which all include a strong maternal goddes, and the twin sisters of the creation mythos. This might have been the cause of the strong position of women in the current Realms.
So furtilety cults where widespread in those earliest days of civilization, and I like to think the Realms equivalents where long gone aswell, but somehow remained powerful and become more refined among the Realms civilisations.
-The Earth Mother of the Moonshaes could be considered a modern-day fertility cult of old, in theory.
Mulhorandi still have Hathor, who seems as a matured fertility godess as well. The elves have the flighty Hanali, the dwarves the forthright Shandrilar. Orcs clearly have a more opressed but protective and primitive fertility cult around Luthic etc. etc.
Source? She's a "mask" of Chauntea?
-She's in the original Moonshae trilogy.
As I took the angelic names (and also angels in general) as the paragons of NG, which are my replacement of the Guardinals. Imo such perfect shining humanoids just fit better as counterpart to the daemons. In addition, the aasimon (solars etc.) are still present in the entire Realms Above.
Considering guardinals, to me they are a better choice for NG exemplars than angels, who should be just servants and messengers of gods, they don't have much of a personality. Guardinals aren't animals just like eladrins aren't elves. And they don't really look that way, animal forms are just symbols and analogies that the mortal mind constructs unable to percieve the beings of spirit. Just like in shamanistic societies where you have the wisdom of the bear (ursinal) or the nobility of the lion (leonal).
The archons are still the predominant lawful good race though, but as I said, their rulers are not clear to me, yet.
I looked through the notes ...
Show
I don't use the lawful planes much, particularly Celestia, so it isn't completely thought out. Always preferred chaos or neutrality to law.
My ruler, ultimately is the Demiurge. But his existance is a mystery, and if it exists, it's alignment. Archons are gnostic, rather than just Greek ''rulers''. The Guide to Hell myth is pretty bad, but the part of it is fine and fits into gnostic legend.
First of all Demiurge is a philosophical concept, for Defiers it's the ultimate fraud, for Dustmen the afterlife (this life), to Bleakers it makes no sense, Ciphers surrender to it, Doomguard believe it will end some day, to Anarchists it's the Matrix, for Sensates it's the omnipresence etc.
It's better to design lawful planes using laws and rules, like occult numerology/geometry and the Rule of Three. The symmetry is not annoying when it's not so obvious. The story includes Jazirian and Ahriman, but also there should be the third one, the unborn serpent, who will one day rise in Mechanus and according to the Unity Rings bring the new/old order of things.
Celestia:
When I changed Celestia I wanted the names of the places and creatures to have a connected mythological background so that they can in the future generate more hooks. But I didn't want to destroy previous interesting parts of canon. I was fine with the name Celestia, called sometimes ''Seven Aeons of Mount Celestia'' by the more knowledgeable ones. ''Aeon'' is better than ''Heaven'' cause there are so many different interpretations of what ''Heaven'' is, and why should LG be the right one.
Aeon describes Celestia in terms of time, not space like all others, it inspires more mystery in players. I always pictured Celestia as a place for the perfection of ''good'', and such evolution wasn't appropriately shown in canon sources, it seemed like the place is trapped in status quo. Aeons are ages of the evolution of souls towards the gnostic ''liberation''.
Layer 0 – Airyana Vaeya (zoroastric, predates archons), in canon Menausus, part of Mechanus now, sign that the Serpent of Mechanus is back.
Layer 1 – Haetumant (zoroastric, predates archons), one of the 16 ancient lands (layers) of Ahura Mazda. In canon Abellio/Arcadia. More lawful than good.
Layer 2 - Aaqa Lu'tiia (syro-arameic ''order'', predates archons, but might supplant them later). Conquered by vaati from Elemental Core (Air) in their prime. More lawful than good, that's why it's considered ''rogue'' by archon authorities. In Great Wheel cosmology Buxenus/Arcadia.
Layer 3 - Deitharbathas (''receptions'' in gnostic), first realm of LG. Replaces Lunia, ruled by Barachiel, his home is known as Banen-Ephroum ,''lips' in gnostic.
Layer 4 - Maira (named after the heroic archon, and her abilities fit how the layer looks like), ruled by Phariel, his name means ''Glorifier'', rules from Aurilon, the Golden Spire. Domiel wasn't good for a tome archon, so I made him rogue, runs a planar network of assassins close with the Order of the Planes Militant.
Layer 5 - Mnesinous , Aeon ''the 'spring of truth'' – reflects the nature of it's ruler Erathaol. Didn't change much here, it's dope.
Layer 6 - Niobe – I just use this name cause it's in the Matrix and means ''snowy'', that also describes the layer considering all the mountains, Niobe was a tragic heroine. Ruled by Pistis Sophia, fine with that, like the monastic concept, and it's interesting that Jazirian's realm is here cause they're similar.
Layer 7 – Saphaia, Aeon of ''Fire'', fire represens life, Raziel is fiery.
Layer 8 – Roeror, meaning ''sinews'' in gnostic, representing the military might of Celestia cause most of it's armies are there. Ruled by incarnated Aeon Aileou, means ''Guardian of the Wicked Region''.
Layer 9 – Elorchaios, ''great light region'', this land is remains a mystery, except the site called Mixanther, ''entrance into eternal life'' in gnostic, guarded by Aesthesis-Ouch-Epi-Ptoe, the archon of the Seven Senses. No known ruler.
Layer + the tenth layer of Celestia is not part of the plane but of Spiritworld.
The races:
Aeons descend from Helions (first exemplars of Law), they created Archons, some have evolved into them, the others merged with the plane. Vaati are creations of Balance, to stop the rise of obyriths, they're reincarnated Helions, born in Elemental Core (Air). Noctrals are guardinal creations or former guardinals. Asuras are former Helions of Fire that have fallen to Chaos during the conflict with daevas (future devil nobility or devas). Logoi are the words of Jazirian given the form of aasimons. Etc.
Baator
Layer 1 - Kurnugia ''land of no return'' in Sumerian, I used that language for Ancient Baatorians to emphasize the ancientness. Secretly ruled by Ereshkigal and Nergal, ancient baatorians. Bael is their construct, Zariel is a fallen archon. Cause I used Phoenician the language for the yugoloths, Baalzephon is an ultroloth in disquise.
Layer 2 - Eita ''infernal region'' in Etruscan language, why? cause Dispater is originally an Etruscan deity (not counting Dyaus Pitr)
Layer 3 - Avernus ''netherlake'' in Latin, kept that name cause I like it, but Avernus fits better on the the third than on the first layer, due to swamplands and decadence (Romans). Ruled by Mammon, who is just a transformed baatezu.
Layer 4 - Phloxopha gnostic word for ''heat'', describes the layer. It's a new name given by Fierana, the current ruler, daughter of Belial and helion Naome.
Layer 5 - Resh-eni, semitic word for ''where the waters begin'', that language fits better for Leviathan/Levistus than Stygia, which is Geryon's name for the layer.
Layer 6 – Gehenna, ''hell'', hebrew name is better than latin Malbolge for Lilith, and beside Maladomini it's repetitive. Lililth is an ancient helion of air, more true to Sumerian origins. And I didn't use NE Gehenna anymore, just it's four layers as demiplanes, artificial creations of yugoloths in Blood Rift for the experiment known as the Blood War.
Layer 7 - Moth ''death/to wither'' in Phoenician, describes Baalzebul's entropic aspect, he is actually an altraloth pretending to be a fallen archon, so his schemes are even deeper.
Layer 8 – Oroorrothos, gnostic ''cold'', Mephistopheles is of helion origin, his origin as a baatezu is false, just like all the names he used before like Shalgiel, Caina or Molikroth.
Layer 9 – Maladomini, better than Nessus imo, which is a centaur name, it's latin, that way it shows the current status quo, most baatezu races have latin names, so, and the word Maladomini perfectly describes what's this place all about. Asmodeus, better to leave it as a mystery.
Layer + the Tenth Hell is not a part of Baator but extends into Spiritworld and the Prime, it has more rulers like Gargauth or yama-raja Emma-hoo.
Dragon Eyrie:
The Demiurge is also Balance, the Serpent of Balance is Io, Dragon Eyrie is shaped like Kabbalistic Sephirot with nine layers (hence the ninefold dragon) visible to the senses, all emanating from the tenth, Io.
Layer 1 – Labernioum, meaning ''root'', coterminous with Faerie/Spiritworld, Nathair Sgiatach and Hlal dwell there
Layer 2 - Oummaa ,''imagination'', coexists with the part of Altxeringa/Playlife (relatively CG plane), Kereska's realm there is known as the Gleaming Wonder
Layer 3 – Daveithai, ''third light:love'', coterminous with Mhaite/Soulhaven (NG plane, kinda combines Elysium and Bytopia), Tamara dwells in Lovenest
Layer 4 – Meniggesstroeth, translates as ''brain'', coexists with the Prime Material Plane, Sardior's realm, the Ruby Nebula and the Crystal Glacier of Kaliyet in Sossal
Layer 5 – Onorthochrasaei, meaning ''matter'', also known as Middle Crags, coterminous with Concordant Domains, inhabitated by T'ien Lung (Center of All Heaven), Astilabor (Hoardlands), Lendys (Scales of Balance), Zorquan (Caverns of the True), and Aasterinian (Varaskverth)
Layer 6 – Diolimodraza, translates as ''active head'', coexists with Kurnugia in Baator, there's Tiamat's Azharul (Cave of Greed)
Layer 7 – Atoimenpsephei, ''breath'', coterminous with Maira/Celestia, Xymor's realm known as Northwind Palace
Layer 8 – Barpharahnges, ''purifier'', coterminous with Xaos (never liked the name Limbo, plus it includes Abyss), realm of Garyx is known as Firelakes of Geneva
Layer 9 – Chnoumeninorin, ''bones'', Null's realm, The Summit, and the ruins of Kalzareinad's Occult Chasm, coexists with Xapriit (Phoenician ''netherworld'') in Grey Waste
Now to include numerology, according to one unorthodox Mathematician, Fuller, there should 32 layers consisting one half of the multiverse (10 layers + 10 + 10 + Mechanus + the mystery layer) and theoretically the other 32, but they're impossible to imagine due to Xaos, alltogether forming 64 part tetrahedral structure of the Demiurge.
My ruler, ultimately is the Demiurge. But his existance is a mystery, and if it exists, it's alignment. Archons are gnostic, rather than just Greek ''rulers''. The Guide to Hell myth is pretty bad, but the part of it is fine and fits into gnostic legend.
First of all Demiurge is a philosophical concept, for Defiers it's the ultimate fraud, for Dustmen the afterlife (this life), to Bleakers it makes no sense, Ciphers surrender to it, Doomguard believe it will end some day, to Anarchists it's the Matrix, for Sensates it's the omnipresence etc.
It's better to design lawful planes using laws and rules, like occult numerology/geometry and the Rule of Three. The symmetry is not annoying when it's not so obvious. The story includes Jazirian and Ahriman, but also there should be the third one, the unborn serpent, who will one day rise in Mechanus and according to the Unity Rings bring the new/old order of things.
Celestia:
When I changed Celestia I wanted the names of the places and creatures to have a connected mythological background so that they can in the future generate more hooks. But I didn't want to destroy previous interesting parts of canon. I was fine with the name Celestia, called sometimes ''Seven Aeons of Mount Celestia'' by the more knowledgeable ones. ''Aeon'' is better than ''Heaven'' cause there are so many different interpretations of what ''Heaven'' is, and why should LG be the right one.
Aeon describes Celestia in terms of time, not space like all others, it inspires more mystery in players. I always pictured Celestia as a place for the perfection of ''good'', and such evolution wasn't appropriately shown in canon sources, it seemed like the place is trapped in status quo. Aeons are ages of the evolution of souls towards the gnostic ''liberation''.
Layer 0 – Airyana Vaeya (zoroastric, predates archons), in canon Menausus, part of Mechanus now, sign that the Serpent of Mechanus is back.
Layer 1 – Haetumant (zoroastric, predates archons), one of the 16 ancient lands (layers) of Ahura Mazda. In canon Abellio/Arcadia. More lawful than good.
Layer 2 - Aaqa Lu'tiia (syro-arameic ''order'', predates archons, but might supplant them later). Conquered by vaati from Elemental Core (Air) in their prime. More lawful than good, that's why it's considered ''rogue'' by archon authorities. In Great Wheel cosmology Buxenus/Arcadia.
Layer 3 - Deitharbathas (''receptions'' in gnostic), first realm of LG. Replaces Lunia, ruled by Barachiel, his home is known as Banen-Ephroum ,''lips' in gnostic.
Layer 4 - Maira (named after the heroic archon, and her abilities fit how the layer looks like), ruled by Phariel, his name means ''Glorifier'', rules from Aurilon, the Golden Spire. Domiel wasn't good for a tome archon, so I made him rogue, runs a planar network of assassins close with the Order of the Planes Militant.
Layer 5 - Mnesinous , Aeon ''the 'spring of truth'' – reflects the nature of it's ruler Erathaol. Didn't change much here, it's dope.
Layer 6 - Niobe – I just use this name cause it's in the Matrix and means ''snowy'', that also describes the layer considering all the mountains, Niobe was a tragic heroine. Ruled by Pistis Sophia, fine with that, like the monastic concept, and it's interesting that Jazirian's realm is here cause they're similar.
Layer 7 – Saphaia, Aeon of ''Fire'', fire represens life, Raziel is fiery.
Layer 8 – Roeror, meaning ''sinews'' in gnostic, representing the military might of Celestia cause most of it's armies are there. Ruled by incarnated Aeon Aileou, means ''Guardian of the Wicked Region''.
Layer 9 – Elorchaios, ''great light region'', this land is remains a mystery, except the site called Mixanther, ''entrance into eternal life'' in gnostic, guarded by Aesthesis-Ouch-Epi-Ptoe, the archon of the Seven Senses. No known ruler.
Layer + the tenth layer of Celestia is not part of the plane but of Spiritworld.
The races:
Aeons descend from Helions (first exemplars of Law), they created Archons, some have evolved into them, the others merged with the plane. Vaati are creations of Balance, to stop the rise of obyriths, they're reincarnated Helions, born in Elemental Core (Air). Noctrals are guardinal creations or former guardinals. Asuras are former Helions of Fire that have fallen to Chaos during the conflict with daevas (future devil nobility or devas). Logoi are the words of Jazirian given the form of aasimons. Etc.
Baator
Layer 1 - Kurnugia ''land of no return'' in Sumerian, I used that language for Ancient Baatorians to emphasize the ancientness. Secretly ruled by Ereshkigal and Nergal, ancient baatorians. Bael is their construct, Zariel is a fallen archon. Cause I used Phoenician the language for the yugoloths, Baalzephon is an ultroloth in disquise.
Layer 2 - Eita ''infernal region'' in Etruscan language, why? cause Dispater is originally an Etruscan deity (not counting Dyaus Pitr)
Layer 3 - Avernus ''netherlake'' in Latin, kept that name cause I like it, but Avernus fits better on the the third than on the first layer, due to swamplands and decadence (Romans). Ruled by Mammon, who is just a transformed baatezu.
Layer 4 - Phloxopha gnostic word for ''heat'', describes the layer. It's a new name given by Fierana, the current ruler, daughter of Belial and helion Naome.
Layer 5 - Resh-eni, semitic word for ''where the waters begin'', that language fits better for Leviathan/Levistus than Stygia, which is Geryon's name for the layer.
Layer 6 – Gehenna, ''hell'', hebrew name is better than latin Malbolge for Lilith, and beside Maladomini it's repetitive. Lililth is an ancient helion of air, more true to Sumerian origins. And I didn't use NE Gehenna anymore, just it's four layers as demiplanes, artificial creations of yugoloths in Blood Rift for the experiment known as the Blood War.
Layer 7 - Moth ''death/to wither'' in Phoenician, describes Baalzebul's entropic aspect, he is actually an altraloth pretending to be a fallen archon, so his schemes are even deeper.
Layer 8 – Oroorrothos, gnostic ''cold'', Mephistopheles is of helion origin, his origin as a baatezu is false, just like all the names he used before like Shalgiel, Caina or Molikroth.
Layer 9 – Maladomini, better than Nessus imo, which is a centaur name, it's latin, that way it shows the current status quo, most baatezu races have latin names, so, and the word Maladomini perfectly describes what's this place all about. Asmodeus, better to leave it as a mystery.
Layer + the Tenth Hell is not a part of Baator but extends into Spiritworld and the Prime, it has more rulers like Gargauth or yama-raja Emma-hoo.
Dragon Eyrie:
The Demiurge is also Balance, the Serpent of Balance is Io, Dragon Eyrie is shaped like Kabbalistic Sephirot with nine layers (hence the ninefold dragon) visible to the senses, all emanating from the tenth, Io.
Layer 1 – Labernioum, meaning ''root'', coterminous with Faerie/Spiritworld, Nathair Sgiatach and Hlal dwell there
Layer 2 - Oummaa ,''imagination'', coexists with the part of Altxeringa/Playlife (relatively CG plane), Kereska's realm there is known as the Gleaming Wonder
Layer 3 – Daveithai, ''third light:love'', coterminous with Mhaite/Soulhaven (NG plane, kinda combines Elysium and Bytopia), Tamara dwells in Lovenest
Layer 4 – Meniggesstroeth, translates as ''brain'', coexists with the Prime Material Plane, Sardior's realm, the Ruby Nebula and the Crystal Glacier of Kaliyet in Sossal
Layer 5 – Onorthochrasaei, meaning ''matter'', also known as Middle Crags, coterminous with Concordant Domains, inhabitated by T'ien Lung (Center of All Heaven), Astilabor (Hoardlands), Lendys (Scales of Balance), Zorquan (Caverns of the True), and Aasterinian (Varaskverth)
Layer 6 – Diolimodraza, translates as ''active head'', coexists with Kurnugia in Baator, there's Tiamat's Azharul (Cave of Greed)
Layer 7 – Atoimenpsephei, ''breath'', coterminous with Maira/Celestia, Xymor's realm known as Northwind Palace
Layer 8 – Barpharahnges, ''purifier'', coterminous with Xaos (never liked the name Limbo, plus it includes Abyss), realm of Garyx is known as Firelakes of Geneva
Layer 9 – Chnoumeninorin, ''bones'', Null's realm, The Summit, and the ruins of Kalzareinad's Occult Chasm, coexists with Xapriit (Phoenician ''netherworld'') in Grey Waste
Now to include numerology, according to one unorthodox Mathematician, Fuller, there should 32 layers consisting one half of the multiverse (10 layers + 10 + 10 + Mechanus + the mystery layer) and theoretically the other 32, but they're impossible to imagine due to Xaos, alltogether forming 64 part tetrahedral structure of the Demiurge.
Source? She's a "mask" of Chauntea?
Mulhorandi still have Hathor, who seems as a matured fertility godess as well. The elves have the flighty Hanali, the dwarves the forthright Shandrilar. Orcs clearly have a more opressed but protective and primitive fertility cult around Luthic etc. etc.
Earthmother should be more distinct from Chauntea, she's fey, spirit of the lands of Moonshae
also Isis, she often merged with Hathor
beholders, the planet H'Catha could be the Great Mother, or a part of Chauntea that got changed by the Far Realm
@Jiggawa
I like how the celestial layers are named and structured by aeons or time. This makes them seem a lot less static but stable at the same time.
The older celestial realms must have been build in the image of the Sharruhk and other dominant serpant races of the pre-creatorrace era's. Did Ahriman and Jazirian reveal themselves fore the Sharruhk?
I think Suin Bahhar might have a great point that I hadn't thought of before.
I see a lot of disgruntled clerics. Not especially from gods that were killed, but specifically from gods that revealed themselves as another god. For example, Sehanine Moonbow being Selûne.
Imagine that you're a cleric and you've devoted your life to a certain god. Some of your friends/allies have given their lives in service to this god. Suddenly, the god tells you that they've been lying to you, and they're REALLY another god (sometimes a god with a radically different outlook on life and expectations on how people should act).
Well, this might be the case in some situations but the impact would probably not be as great as you think. The real world's history is rife with gods switching their identities left and right...the least-offensive and most-well-known example being Ares->Mars; Aphrodite->Venus, and the changes between Greek and Roman perspectives on these gods. It was more than just a rebranding.
History (RW history) is filled with these sorts of examples. I'm not necessarily saying there won't be problems in the Realms; I'm simply saying that it's happened a great deal in the real world. The term is syncretism, I believe, and it has a long history.
I think it's actually easier in the Realms because, well--these gods have power; they're the source of power for their worshippers; they can actually perform and empower magics. Do you really want to argue with the deity who tells you that he's not X anymore but was actually Y when that god is responsible for your community's well-being? Sure, you could switch gods, but are you also going to move out of town to a place with a different temple?
I also don't think this happened overnight. To us, reading a 100-year-shift in a sudden data dump, it seems abrupt; but there were 100 years for people to gradually work out the religious "knots" involved in such transformations.
History (RW history) is filled with these sorts of examples. I'm not necessarily saying there won't be problems in the Realms; I'm simply saying that it's happened a great deal in the real world. The term is syncretism, I believe, and it has a long history.
-The point that negates this is that, in real life, we do not have the clarity of omniscience. If only we did...Forgotten Realms sourcebooks in the 3e era, they were omniscient, in that everything they contained within them was the (to use a pun) "G-d's honest truth". That's how it was. When new books undo what is said in these older books without presenting explanations, we get all screwy like this here. This is omniscient, and 100% correct. This is omniscient, and 100% correct. The two are different. Which one is right?
Misinformation spread by organisations sure as the Twisted Rune, the Harpers and Tel'tu'Kira/Silverstars/Sharrans/etc., has (had?) a strong influence on the common knowledge. Slowly nudging favourable myths above others will allow cetrain longlived indiviuals to outwit the common less long lived philosopher. But of those few that have acces to the true view of the facts of life, neary a single one of them cares to share that view with the common man.
The common man, whose list of experiences, both the supernatural and extraordinairy, will accumulate to a body of wisdom that might surpass the explanations that his patron diety's church might have thaught, has to make sense of his surroundings aswell. Still, that man will have to deal with the fundamental questions AND the supernatural questions of life.
If a philosopher exists to answer the common questions of the fundamental but daily kind, they would have to carefully choose their sources to come up with a sound answer to questions as "What is evil?", "Where does the soul came from?".
Seperating myth from fact must be folly when the spellplague just hit your dynasty hard, swept your neigbour to an unknown world, and made your wands explode. I think lots of philosphers will make conclusions that err on the wrong side. Such as blaming the disaster on the actions of the not pious enough worshippers. Seems a logical step to make for more divine philosophers.
I agree 15th Century Fearun is still a dificult place to be a philosopher. Superstitions about the gods would probably run rampant, and questioning the gods' authority will not be the most prevailing activity of philosophers.
-I don't think that that presents a roadblock to philosophy. In fact, I think it promotes philosophy. There's plenty of new fodder on deities alone, let alone everything else, to debate, discuss, and theorize.
I consede though that common understanding about the divine might have come to newfound scrutiny aswell. Especially now that they found out about the masks of the gods towards other races (Angharrad=Aerdie/Akadi/Auril/Sehanine/Selune/Sune/Hanali) the common belief in gods might have shifted the view on the us-against-them mentality amongst the common intelligent races. Though most of the body of knowledge on the gods is confined to the upper echelon of churches, certain of these facts will reach the philosophic commoners.
Thats why a new book on the dieties is essential IMO. To make sense of how the current generations of heroes view their dieties, and how much of their dieties teachings and dogma's are to be followed to the letter, dismissed and/or reimagined for the new age.
Thats why a new book on the dieties is essential IMO. To make sense of how the current generations of heroes view their dieties, and how much of their dieties teachings and dogma's are to be followed to the letter, dismissed and/or reimagined for the new age.
-Even if there was a new book on deities, I highly doubt that it would delve into the subject that we are talking about. I mean, in the FRCG, it mentions that the Elves of Evereska learned that Aerdrie Faenya apparently always was Akadi, and yet, that's really all. In a theoretical deity book, I'd see the same kind of mention in her history, and that's all.
You're right. But I still want it seen done right one time...
I remember a while back they did an extensive article on the organisation of the clerics of Hextor. They should do the same to every possible diety in D&D.
I like me some powerful mystic fey figures. She's a lady of the lake/queen morwell type character, nay? But how do her worshippers conduct fertility rituals? @Jiggawa I like how the celestial layers are named and structured by aeons or time. This makes them seem a lot less static but stable at the same time. The older celestial realms must have been build in the image of the Sharruhk and other dominant serpant races of the pre-creatorrace era's. Did Ahriman and Jazirian reveal themselves fore the Sharruhk?
in Great Tree cosmology probably yes for me no I like the idea that mortal belief somewhat influences the shape of Outer Planes, but that actually happens only to the mortal's perspective on the reality (or collectively affects it's race or culture, like in morphic field theory). That works with the Center of All principle.
never liked the idea of multiple Astral Planes and separate cosmologies for the every continent in the universe. So the sarrukh as just one culture on a tiny, insignificant planet didn't change much, the archons did appear more serpentine to them, and their minds have percieved beings of spirit using some other abstract symbolism.
Ed's idea that Toril is only 70 000 years old is interesting, that probably means that the whole crystal sphere is more like an artificial creation or an experiment run by an entity of Balance, Ao. Ahriman and Jazirian should be billions of years older than the sphere. It possible that the crystal sphere of Toril had similar patterns of development like the other planes and the World Serpent appeared there in some way. Kinda like that metaphysical principle ''as above, so below''. World Serpent was created by the sarrukh in the Spiritworld but eventually it split and merged with beings like Jazirian, Merrshaulk etc.
Serpends of Law, World Serpent, Io etc., they aren't serpents, snakes or dragons, they're just interpreted in these symbols. What they really mean, knowledge, wisdom or some Jungian fear barrier to the unconscious, is a mystery.
For instance, I'm Catholic, to me, it would be like finding out that Jesus was ACTUALLY just an aspect of Odin.
Vise-versa
Really the planescape philosophies are still very viable and can easily slipped in.
never liked the idea of multiple Astral Planes and separate cosmologies for the every continent in the universe.
I've no problem with seperate cosmologies. Actually, I rather like the idea. I see each plane of existence of such a cosmology as just a small part of the 'default' cosmology (i.e. the Great Wheel, or at least a modified & re-named version of it)
Anyway, yeah, Ed's idea is interesting, though I'd personally wouldn't use it. I don't like the thought that overdeities come and pump out entire spheres, worlds, and pantheons. A little bit natural selection and evolution isn't bad, even in a fantasy setting.
For instance, I'm Catholic, to me, it would be like finding out that Jesus was ACTUALLY just an aspect of Odin. I could fill a few pages with things that would confuse me, things that would make me angry, and things I might find intriguing.
In historical real life, it wasn't Odin but rather Baldur who was hard-sold as Jesus to the Norse.
That said, I totally understand and empathize with your point. I don't like it either and I'd find it really confusing as well.
I tend to look at it much like psudoscience. Most are going to take the easiest answer as the one they choose, not the one that requires them to do serious thinking and questing after knowledge. But I tend to have a fairly low opinion of humanity, so that could be influencing my point of view on the matter.
While philosophers would probably exist somewhere, their influence might be curtailed, and not of much relevance until a later age discovers their works with more time and leisure to contemplate them at length. More likely though, you'd probably see the philosophers springing up in established religions, giving folks a new way to look at an old idea. St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and the like come to mind fairly readily for what I suspect one would be more likely to find in the Realms after the Spellplague, and not so much the likes of Voltaire or Nietzsche (or however that's spelled, too tired to look it up).
Depends more on the 'ease' of life in the post-spellplague Realms if you ask me. The harder the average citizen's life, the less philosophy will have widespread influence. It's pretty much an intellectual luxury that most aren't capable of affording during hardship (real hardship that is), much like morality and ethics (which is in short supply most days, it seems of late).
-I agree with what you are getting at, but not how you said it. The harder, easier, whatever, the 'average' persons life, there are still going to be various philosophies that he/she can choose to follow. Those philosophies are going to be created by the more well-to-do, who don't have to worry about the basics, and can devote time and resources to thought. That is, even if the 'average' person lives a life of constant toil, there will still be philosophies that he/she uses to govern his/her life. They're not going to be created by Mr./Ms. Average, but they'd be used by him/her.
Thay, Chessenta and perhaps Skuld would make great centers of philosophical movements in Eastern Fearun, also supported by the abundant wealth of the main citizans (i.e. non slaves). These areas make the most sense to support philosophers, but mostly to make up pretty reasons for more conquest and oppression.
Works such as Draconomicon, the Book of Vile Darkness, the Book of Exhalted Deeds, the Manual of the Planes could exist as many copies across the multiverse. Its authors would probably be considered the top philosopers of the current age. The Demonomicon's author Iggwilv is sought out by many students, arcanoloth and human alike, due to her expensive knowledge on the myths on the Abyss.
These works leave many areas of expertise open for others to explore in depth in the new century of the realms as they hold knowledge of older hierachies and constellations of the planar realms, and can prove as guides to make sense to the new structures by tying in those recognizable areas to the new planar landscapes and vistas.
-I agree with what you are getting at, but not how you said it. The harder, easier, whatever, the 'average' persons life, there are still going to be various philosophies that he/she can choose to follow. Those philosophies are going to be created by the more well-to-do, who don't have to worry about the basics, and can devote time and resources to thought. That is, even if the 'average' person lives a life of constant toil, there will still be philosophies that he/she uses to govern his/her life. They're not going to be created by Mr./Ms. Average, but they'd be used by him/her.
I would say that entirely depended on what benefit that the philosophy in question, whatever it might be, would bring them, as well as the nature of the philosophy. Religious philosophies, that were mostly just variants of dogma and interpretation of portfolio, sure, I could see those being fairly widespread. Secular philosophies, I have a much harder time seeing as being even remotely prevalent among anything but the upper classes, and even then probably being faddish and not prone to having much staying power, and hence easily forgotten in the long run. Secular varieties would probably carry the fear of ticking off the gods, and I doubt the Spellplague would really encourage most to want to do that sort of thing.
Presuming that monks retain their abilities without divine sponsorship, I could see monastaries of a secular nature popping up and being philosophical centers perhaps, but it seems a bit iffy if they're trying to actively spread their tenets. I can't see many churches taking well to the idea of a bunch of faithless spouting heresy, if not downright blasphemy against the gods and not retaliating somehow.
But still, I see cities like those in Cormyr, as well as any that promote religious diversity and freedom, with a more cosmopolitan atmosphere being the big centers of philosophies of all stripes being born and contemplated. Any place really that promotes an exchange of ideas and cultures is ripe enough ground for them, although from my brief read of the new FRCG, places like that seem far and few between.
Secular philosophies I have a harder time seeing, as I suspect most places would view them in the same way as they would a cult, with all of the attendant negative baggage that would entail. Still though, I could definitely see them existing in some places, though I'd think that they wouldn't necessarily have to conflict with ecclessiastic beliefs, and might in fact complement them in some respects... moderation in all things, without being tied to a particular deity, is one such example of a philosophy of a secular nature I could see co-existing relatively peaceably with the local churches, with a few minor exceptions.
Secular philosophies I have a harder time seeing...
I think Adam Smith would go over big in Amn. Though they'd probably wonder why he talked with a dwarvish accent.
I think Adam Smith would go over big in Amn. Though they'd probably wonder why he talked with a dwarvish accent.
-That's Adom Smithhammer, from the Great Rift.