Plane of Dreams in FR's Axis Cosmology

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

suin_bahhar_02

May 29, 2010 17:36:07
Where does the Plane of Dreams fit in the Axis Cosmology?

A single gods astral domain, or would a place somewhere in the Feywild be a better fit?
#2

The_Silversword

May 29, 2010 20:46:38
Im no artist but I think it would look something like this:



Of course Abeir shouldnt be considered its own plane, it only intersects with Toril, not all of Realmspace, at least as far as I know, I should just erase it, im not sure how to best show the position of Abeir on a 2 dimensional planar map, but it proably has a connection to the Plane of Dreams and the Plane of Nightmares as well.
#3

18DELTA

May 29, 2010 21:06:30
Abeir has its own Feywild and Shadowfell. Maybe have Abeir and Realms Space together. At least  the Planet of Toril and the Planet of Abeir.

Maybe Gray will come along with a great explanation.

That does look good Silver...
#4

gray_richardson

May 30, 2010 1:00:38
In the 3e Manual of the Planes, the Plane of Dreams was not part of the Great Wheel cosmology, it was an optional plane; it was not attached to the cosmos in any particular fashion. In 2e it was part of the Ethereal Plane.  If you are using the 3e FR cosmology, I would still consider the Plane of Dreams to be a part of the Ethereal Plane, existing as a veil of color separating the Border Ethereal from the Deep Ethereal.

The 4e cosmology doesn't use the Ethereal Plane, although, the cosmology is supposed to be the same as the 3e cosmology with changes wrought by the Spellplague.  So the question is, what happened to the Ethereal Plane?  My assumption is that it was merged with the Shadow Plane (or the part of the Shadow Plane that was coterminous with Toril) to become the Shadowfell.  In that case the Plane of Dreams might now be a region of the Shadowfell that separates the border of Shadow from Deep Shadow.

Alternatively, you could postulate that the Ethereal was absorbed into the Feywild. The Region of Dreams might then have become part of the Feywild.

Or, it is possible that the Ethereal was split half and half between the two.  Here's a  thought: the Plane of Dreams might have been itself split.  Perhaps the Region of Dreams exists in the Feywild while a dark reflection, the Region of Nightmares, exists in the Shadowfell.  There is precedence for a Demiplane of Nightmares, though last I heard, I believe that plane was a demiplane attached to the Astral.

Which brings us to another option, which is to have the Plane of Dreams be a demiplane attached to the Astral.  Not a divine dominion, but a demiplane in its own right. And there is a logic to that, the Astral Plane is a plane of mind and thought. Dreams would be at home there.

A final option is to simply not place it at all.  Why does anyone need to know where it is?  You simply access it through your dreams or by means of other rituals.  It's ultimate location with respect to the rest of the cosmology need not be known to the players, nor even resolved in the DM's mind as it is unlikely to be important to the plot of the adventure--important merely that players be able to get there.  Its location makes for a good mystery, with different plausible theories espoused by different sages, some debating it heatedly.  You don't really need to decide on its location unless some plot point relies on fixing it definitively.
#5

18DELTA

May 30, 2010 1:30:59
Outstanding...
#6

gray_richardson

May 30, 2010 1:31:52
By the way, Abeir is apparently in a pocket dimension a geographical clone of Toril circa -31,000 DR. This according to comments by Ed Greenwood.  The pocket dimension is out of phase with Toril.  From what it sounds like, this pocket universe is only a little bit bigger than the planet Abeir.  While not mentioned specifically, it doesn't sound like any of the rest of Realmspace was cloned to go with it, by implication Abeir has no sun or planets and no stars are visible in the sky.  From what we can discern, Abeir has some sort of aurora or shell surrounding it called the Steelsky.  A chunk of the Steelsky came over with returned Abeir.  This Steelsky is what presumably lights the surface of Abeir and serves in lieu of a sun.  It appears as a metalic-hued vault across the sky.  In violent weather the sky boils into dark green and copper colored clours.  See the FRCG p. 200 for more (but not much more) info.

My guess is that when the gods and primordials settled their war and split Abeir off from Toril, the primordials got tricked, they forgot to ask for a sun.  So as a result they ended up with a planet in a dark pocket universe with no sun.  What they did for a sun in the meantime is a story yet to be told, however, at some point an incredibly vast Dawn Titan named Arambar died (he may have been killed or alternatively may have sacrificed himself) and the residual energy formed the Steelsky.

I like the idea that he sacrificed himself shortly after Abeir was created in order to light the darkness.  But we don't know that his death was contempraneous (or willing) with the creation of Abeir.  It is possible that they used other means to light the sky at first, maybe salamanders lit up the sky with fire, maybe they constructed giant lamps, maybe a giant primordial rowed around the sky in a great boat with some kind of light source.  They might even have tried a few different solutions in succession.  All we know is that the Steelsky seems to be the current method.   
#7

gray_richardson

May 30, 2010 10:23:23
After sleeping on it, it occurred to me (in a dream of all things) that the Ethereal Plane connected the Prime Material Plane to the Inner Planes, and in some sense contained the Elemental Planes.

It would therefore seems likely that when the Spellplague stirred up the Elemental Planes and mixed them all into the Elemental Chaos, the Ethereal Plane collapsed and got stirred into the mix.  One might therefore conclude that the Plane of Dreams also got sucked into that maelstrom and would find its present home in the Elemental Chaos, existing as a ribbon of colors threaded through certain parts of the plane.  Or alternatively, the Veil of Dream might itself have collapsed, like the surface of a bubble, and find itself concentrated in a particular region of the Chaos, might even be hard to find--laying hidden among the detritus of elemental motes, somewhere deep within the elemental miasma.

Come to think of it, actually locating the Plane of Dreams and traveling there might make the basis for a very fun adventure in itself. 
#8

suin_bahhar_02

May 30, 2010 13:31:32
Hmm, now I cant decide... I like the sinking into the Elemental Chaos because its provides good encounters and adventuring possibilities. The shift to the coterminous planes of both the Feywild and the Shadowfell can give interesting results for adventure aswell, but seem more usefull for a more intrigue or mystery based campaign. Both theories have merit.

I guess we'll have to wait for the next PH to reveal how dream, elemental and shadow spells and their planar sources interact.

Addendum: I forgot.

I saw that Dendar the Nightserpent resides in the Fugue Plane. Did he always live there or did he hail from the Plane of Nightmares? If so, this might be evidence that the plane of dreams merged with the Fugue somehow.
#9

gray_richardson

May 30, 2010 15:51:58
Dendar has always laired in a vast cavern near the oozing river Slith that flows through the City of Judgment (formerly the City of Strife) and forms the moat that surrounds Kelemvor's Crystal Spire.  I believe she lives far outside the city proper, but where the exact entrance to her cavern lies, I don't know for certain.

She has always lived on the Fugue Plane, except in 2e, the Fugue Plane was thought to be located in the Gray Waste of Hades.  In 3e the Fugue Plane was determined to be a plane in its own right.

Dendar was born of the first nightmare ever dreamed by a mortal in Realmspace.  But, aside from this, as far as I know, Dendar has no links to the Plane of Nightmares, although in Calimport she is known (incorrectly) as the Mother of the Night Parade. (see Powers & Pantheons p. 188)


#10

The_Silversword

May 30, 2010 16:36:28
Ive been thinking on this as well, and while I dont remember any canon reference to a Plane of Dreams in Faerun, I do remember there was a Plane of Nightmares, many nasties came from there. After thinking about it some, Im thinking that it ties in with the Far Realm. That an unsettling thought there.

I think it would make sense for a plane of dreams to overlap Realmspace, Abeir, Feywild, and the Shadowfell. Where it touched with the Feywild you have good dreams, where it touches with the Shadowfell is Nightmares. Just a thought, and I dont really think theres a wrong or right answer.

I still think the planes are pretty much as they were before, other than the Abyss getting booted out of the Outerplanes, or by 4e terminology the Astral sea. The way I see it, The planes are far more vast and complex than mortal minds can understand. So the way mortals choose to map these planes and how they interact may change, but for the most part its still the same planes.