Think about how much work has gone into crafting a living and breathing world. Then it just seems like everyone just skimped over one of the most fundamental things in world building: weather patterns and plate tectonics.
I'd like to see a serious effort done to map out the plate tectonics and weather patterns of the Realms. Determining the positions of the plates and the directions they move in should be pretty easy thanks to the mountain ranges. I'd imagine the equator runs through or just above Chult.
Would anyone like to give it a go? We'd have to ignore magic and curses that change weather patterns and such - that can be filled in afterward.
Is anyone interested in giving it a shot? I'm curious as to what the map would look like - if something like a desert popped up where you least expected it.
Bel
I don't think it'd be possible to actually use this information in the game. What would happen if, as a result of our findings, we discover that Cormyr should be a desert or that it'd be impossible for the Great Dale / High Forest to be a forested area?
This information might be helpful.
3.5. How large is Toril/Faerun/the Heartlands?
Let's get our terminology straight first. Toril (Abeir-Toril) is the planet the Realms are found on. It's roughly Earth-sized, according to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.
Faerun is the continent on which most Realms adventures take place. It stretches from Waterdeep and the Sword Coast in the west to the edge of the Hordelands in the east. The map in the old Grey Box clearly shows that Faerun is larger than North America by quite a bit. A quick calculation using the FR ATLAS reveals that Faerun has an area of ~ 14 million square miles. The areas of North America, Africa, and Asia are 9, 12, and 17 million square miles, respectively.
The Heartlands (3.5 million square miles) are the central portion of Faerun, centered around Cormyr, the Dales, and the northern Sea of Fallen Stars. They cover roughly the same area as the United States (3.6 million square miles).
3.6. Where is Toril's equator?
Looking at the map in F&A, we can see that the equator runs through the southern part of Maztica (just below the published map), through the northern portion of Zakhara, and through the southern reaches of Kara-Tur. It falls a little south of Nimbral (I think that's Nimbral) and well south of Chult.
Abeir-Toril, according to every published source, is roughly equivalent in size to Earth. However, part of what determines the size of the tropics and the intensity of the seasons is whether or not it has the same axial tilt. Since there are very definite summers and winters, I'd say the axial tilt is the same or perhaps even a little greater (23.5-25 degrees, as a ballpark guess).
Note also, from the same map, that even including Maztica we've only seen about a third of the surface area of Toril. There's a LOT of room for more lands to explore, to the west of Maztica and/or the east of Kara-Tur (as well as to the south of everything).
3.12. Is the Moonsea salt or fresh water?
The Moonsea is freshwater, as is the River Lis. The Sea of Fallen Stars is generally saltwater, although both the Lake of Dragons (Dragonmere) and the Vilhon Reach might be considered "brackish", i.e. somewhere in between. The latter in particular is uncomfortable for many aquatic saltwater dwellers.
3.13. Does Toril have time zones?
From: Trent Raley
Toril
Circumference = 23,400 approx
24 time zones
Axial tilt is ~ 19-25 degrees
Prime Meridian is Myth Drannor
Other time zones are based on meridian lines of globe function in Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas (two per square).
Time zones are 975 miles wide.
Nit-pick -- that is 975 miles wide at the equator of course. This will dwindle down to zero as you approach the poles.
3.20. What's known about the Moonshaes? Are they volcanic in nature? Are they separated bits of the continent? What about their culture as originally conceived by Ed Greenwood?
Ed Greenwood writes:
The 'original' Moonshaes are akin to LeGuin's Earthsea: hundreds of little islands, long-extinct volcanic peaks that rise up out of the sea abruptly, are inhabited by fisherfolk (with a few larger islands that have forests, farms, etc.) nothing much above the rural village culture on most, with self-styled 'lords' on others...and like Earthsea, somewhat like the Celtic-era Hebrides...they occupy the same space as TSR's (Doug Niles's) Moonshaes, arcing from a 'wide spray' at the Sword Coast or eastward extent, curving and narrowing southwest and curving to south...in other words, a large area of 'perilous sea' with awash rocks, reefs, etc. and safe channels that only the locals know.
EDIT: This bit of information might help in comparisons. The earth is roughly 197 million square miles in size, and of that 57 million square miles is land and the rest is water.
The only conclusion I could draw at the time, is that they are absent, or so minimal as to not be noticed. The reason for this conclusion, is the extensive region we all know as the underdark. Were earthquakes to be abundent, whole sections of tunnels should in theory have collapsed, and the surface should be potmarked by gorges of all size.
The fact that a massive cavern sat below the inner sea for centuries, and was only disturbed during the spellplague, seems to speak well for a lack of plate shifting.
-RW
Maybe Abeir-Toril doesn't has Plate tectonics. I don't remember any volcano at all (a sign of this phenomena).
There are volcanos in the Realms. The ones that immediately come to mind are in Chult.
This wouldn't be the first time Realms' physics aren't as ours. If I'm not mistaken, for example, stars in Toril's Crystal Sphere are portals to the positive energy plane or the elemental plane of fire, not actual stars.
Another strange thing is the weather. Normally it would be influenced by mountainranges, the sea, how far you are away from it, and how many degree the planet is of the center in its daily circle. I would think of Amn and the Swordcoast as something which gets in summertime much rain, because the wind (trade wind?) would come from the sea. But that seemed not the case. The winter should be more arid and colder (wind would be from landside in the south east), unless its influenced from some phenomenon like the gulf stream. Is something known about sea currents? Than the temperate zones seemed a bit small or sometimes like the map painters took them where they wanted and right next to tropical jungle is something one would expect more to the north or south.
The general question here sounds like a good one for Ed.
I really don't like the explanation that it's all magic, and generally speaking, I try and ignore things that don't make sense. Like entire landmasses disappearing, exploding or appearing. I don't care what the world is made of, if such a thing happened, I'm fairly sure it'd kill all life on the planet as the results would be extremely catastrophic.
I just wish I knew more on this subject so I could do it myself and report my findings.
If I wanted to use such findings, I'd likely kill Chauntea, and claim that the reason things were the way they were was because she was trying to keep the land in balance. With her death the land returns to its natural state. That's how I'd explain the changes.
However, certain things, like the Underdark, would pose a problem. Although I should point out that in the real world, large and vast naturally made underground caverns exist. Though I suppose this would be more in line with the Upper Dark than the Middle or Lower Dark. If one goes with the Chauntea explanation above, then it could be generally assumed that these areas were destroyed, when large amounts of molten lava from the Torillian Mantle began to flow into them – essentially molding them back into solid earth.
I'm surprised any Abeirians even survived.
-RW
Of course, Abeir would have brought with them their own diseases and such which would have had an equal effect on the Torillians.
Disease and plague are big events that happened after the Spellplague in my Realms. In fact, disease, plague and starvation killed more people than the events of the Spellplague itself (which still claimed millions of lives). I am going for something along the lines of a Black Death type scenario, where as many as 30% to 60% of the population died over a 15 year period.
I assume, do to the lack of tectonics and magma tubes, that all of FR's volcanos are connected to the elemental Plane of Fire (or in 4e, the Elemental maelstrom). Geo-thermic models simply do not work on a world with an Underdark.
What would the weather of the Old Empires (Unther and Chessenta) look like? What about Cormyr? Would Chult even be a jungle land?
Maybe Abeir-Toril doesn't has Plate tectonics. I don't remember any volcano at all (a sign of this phenomena).
-One that immediately comes to mind is Sentinelspire.
-That said, concerning the topic at hand, and related conversations: Remember, the physics of Realmspace =/= the physics of Earth.
Even so, there are still weather patterns on Toril, and these would likely be very similar to how weather is on Earth, except where magic is directly impacting it. In those special cases it would also alter the weather elsewhere, which is present in Realmslore, thankfully.
As for plate tectonics... here is an idea. When the land was one, plate tectonics and the like existed. Yet, when the Elves performed the High Magic Ritual that resulted in the Sundering, the Underdark was created, and the mountain ranges we see today were formed. Many of the strange geological features that we note are a result of the Sundering.
Now, as a result of this, Toril is a geologically dead planet - like Mars or the Moon. There is no plate tectonics. However, I'm not sure what the result of this would be or why volcanoes would be active...
What would be the result of a geologically dead planet? No earthquakes or active Volcanoes for one, unless they are magically created.
That made me laugh, thinking of all the various outbreaks of "Toril Pox". :P
Of course, Abeir would have brought with them their own diseases and such which would have had an equal effect on the Torillians.
Yeah I was meaning more-so the effect on Toril with the first part, but the fact that any Abeirens survived was an equally amusing after thought :P.
Still, it does make for some amusing RP potential post SP.
-RW
And the good version, not the one with Tom 'couch-jumper' Cruise. ;)
Yet, when the Elves performed the High Magic Ritual that resulted in the Sundering, the Underdark was created, and the mountain ranges we see today were formed. Many of the strange geological features that we note are a result of the Sundering.
-Why wouldn't the Underdark exist beforehand? The Earth, for example, despite having moving plates and all, has caves, some large and deep. If Abeir-Toril is larger than the Earth, it would make sense that perhaps her plates are larger, which would seem to allow for larger caves and such...
What would be the result of a geologically dead planet? No earthquakes or active Volcanoes for one, unless they are magically created.
-Both of which exist, however. As in the non-magical variety.
If not there, then elsewhere, but I do remember reading that bit.
I believe it is in the GHotR where it specifically states the Underdark was formed during the sundering.
If not there, then elsewhere, but I do remember reading that bit.
-AGHotR does not feature this information. That said, I've never heard this before. Any other possible sources for it?
I think the easiest way to deal with Toril's wacky geography is just to say that the planet, geologically speaking, is dead, and that the current map was created as a result of the Sundering (which made the Spellplague look pitiful in comparison on the RSE scale). Plate tectonics is no longer active. However, I am rather certain that this will have some type of impact on the planet. I'm not a geologist though... so I'm not sure EXACTLY what type of impact it would have, although I'm prone to say that - at least for one - it'll lose its magnetic field. If this is true, then it means that Toril would be susceptible to Solar Radiation... not a good thing at all.
We could say that the Weave takes the place of such things, but then we run into the problem that the Weave no longer exists.
However, let's just ignore that for the moment and look at the weather patterns of Toril. Those would certainly follow real world laws.
Let's say the following: Chauntea, through use of the Weave, was helping to keep Toril in a state of balance that existed pre-Sundering. Now that the Weave is gone she is no longer able to do that.
What would begin to change and why? What would Cormyr and the surrounding lands look like in 100 years?
Plus, I'm pretty sure that the Sundering would have caused them to collapse.
-Depends. Earthquakes and stuff happen here, and sometimes caverns and things in the area collapse, and sometimes they don't.
-The Underdark could also possibly be tubes and caverns and so in in the actual plates themselves, in the deeper parts.
Plate tectonics is no longer active.
-I don't know the answer myself, but perhaps this is why, in the 24,000 +/- years since the Sundering, the continents have not moved, and the map has stayed static. But, were this the case, then earthquakes would not happen (being as that they are a byproduct of plates crashing and grinding), but we know that earthquakes do happen.
We could say that the Weave takes the place of such things, but then we run into the problem that the Weave no longer exists.
-I was actually thinking the same thing, myself.
What would begin to change and why? What would Cormyr and the surrounding lands look like in 100 years?
-Based on the Cormyr article in online DRAGON, it looks pretty...the same. Still a forest kingdom. Were there a major shake-up in the local climate, given 100 years to work with, this would have changed.
If you go the single plate route, then you can probably (I guess) claim that the planet still has an active core, and thus a magnetic field. It could also have a mantle which allows lava to rise up - explaining away the volcano's.
However, the Underdark has another problem. I know in the real world we cannot go to the bottom of the ocean, for example, because of atmospheric pressure and gravity. Eventually you'd be crushed flat.
Based on the Cormyr article in online DRAGON, it looks pretty...the same. Still a forest kingdom. Were there a major shake-up in the local climate, given 100 years to work with, this would have changed.
Yes, this is what I'd like to know. I am thinking about going this route with my Realms. It just depends on what the map would look like and how drastically it would change. Weather, unless magically altered, still works just like it does in the real world.
After all weather still occurs due to the density (temperature and moisture) difference between one place to another. Which is due to the sun's angle at any particular spot, which varies by latitude from the equator. In other words, the farther from the equator you lie, the lower the sun angle is, which causes those locations to be cooler due to the indirect sunlight. The strong temperature contrast between the northern and southern regions of the planet is what would give rise to a jet stream.
Additionally, because we know Toril has seasons we know its axis is tilted relative to its orbital plane, like earths, and that sunlight is incident at different angles at different times of the year.
Higher altitudes would still be cooler than lower ones, and in local areas, temperature differences would still occur because of different surfaces (such as oceans, forests, ice sheets, and the like) which have different physical characteristics such as reflectivity, roughness, or moisture content. Those surfaces cause temperature differences which in turn cause pressure differences. A hot surface still heats the air above it and the air expands, lowering the air pressure and its density. This would in turn create wind, and the rotation of Toril would cause curvature of its flow.
All of this STILL impacts Toril normally, and for the weather to be different can only be as a result of 'magic'. The loss of the Weave would then in turn have an impact on the 'magical' weather of Toril... changing it.
(And a big thanks for Wikipedia for all that information on how weather works. :P)
All of this STILL impacts Toril normally, and for the weather to be different can only be as a result of 'magic'. The loss of the Weave would then in turn have an impact on the 'magical' weather of Toril... changing it.
:: Pauses for a moment ::
-Do you think that these sorts of things are things that the designers were keeping in mind when making up details for new Forgotten Realms? Or, even the old Forgotten Realms? Or, really, any fantasy setting? :P
Think about this: The designers of FR, and Ed in particular, put TONS of time working out the details of places like Cormyr. Even right down to the style of dress, commonly used phrases and words, the placement of trade routes, and pseudo-legal codes.
Don't you think, if you're going to put in that much work into a setting, you'd at least consider what type of weather would exist in the region?
Sure, it might not be as 'sexy' or 'fun' as those other things, but it's pretty damn important. You can't just go around placing things like a jungle at the North Pole, for example, without a good explanation of how and why it's located there.
Bel
Sure, there are many fantasy settings that start with a map. They create all that information, which determines the size and position of the continents, the placement of mountains, etc. Then they use that information to create the weather, which in turn determines what a local environment might look like.
Think about this: The designers of FR, and Ed in particular, put TONS of time working out the details of places like Cormyr. Even right down to the style of dress, commonly used phrases and words, the placement of trade routes, and pseudo-legal codes.
Don't you think, if you're going to put in that much work into a setting, you'd at least consider what type of weather would exist in the region?
Sure, it might not be as 'sexy' or 'fun' as those other things, but it's pretty damn important. You can't just go around placing things like a jungle at the North Pole, for example, without a good explanation of how and why it's located there.
In this case though it started with the local area, with the "details" you describe, probably with no real thought that one day it would turn into a world. As it expanded things were added because they would be fun. In many ways that is a good thing because it's meant for enjoyment, but don't let anyone try to tell you that FR was a product of any sort of world-building concept. Which has the unfortunate side effect that things like plate tectonics, sea currents, prevailing winds, and their effects on geography, climate and ecology get passed by in favour of things that aren't realistic but that keep things that had been created for story purposes.
Now, as a result of this, Toril is a geologically dead planet - like Mars or the Moon. There is no plate tectonics. However, I'm not sure what the result of this would be or why volcanoes would be active...
Wouldn't work, all live would die because of the radiation from the star. Plate tectonic results because the core is active and hot, it creates flowing lava systems in the core and the higher regions underneath the plates and melts rock and all the stuff in there, that flows upward, underneath the earth crust (is that the english word for a plate?) and this flowing lava let the plates move (like icebergs on the ocean). If plate tectonic stops, it could only be because the core itself cooled down and that would mean that also the magnetic field would collapse (like it did on Mars) and so one of the natural shields wich stops a lot of the radiation which cames from the sun would also collapse. Live would be dead, so there must be something other which protects Abeir-Toril from solar radiation. I'd say it is something magical, something the gods did, when the world was created. Maybe there is some strange thing in the core, which creates a shield or magnetic field but since there is no plate tectonic, its not iron and other metalls flowing around.
Actually, I think the Sword Coast is known to be rainy.
Yes, but it would be different between summer and winter, espacial in Amn (three mountain ranges around, where the clouds would be caught in between, that must be one of the most humid places during the summer, something like rainforests like in tasmania or the big wet forests in some parts of europe would be the result, but it seemed to be more arid, good for agriculture).
I'd be more interested in seeing the biological fallout of an alien world merging with Toril. Think of the varied strains of viruses being suddenly introduced into already overtaxed immune systems.
That must have happened every time some planar traveller visits the realms. I think maybe that happened so often and some empires and states of the realms were so often connected to other planes (Netheril, the elves, the drow, Imaskari, Kara-Tur) that most of the people living in the realms had some immune systems to handle such things.
Don't you think, if you're going to put in that much work into a setting, you'd at least consider what type of weather would exist in the region?
-The new Forgotten Realms, where less is seemingly more, no, no I don't think this would be considered. The old Forgotten Realms, depending on the supplement, maybe, but not to the degree that we seem to be delving. Other fantasy settings, no.
Okay, if you really have to talk about plate tectonics. Concider the fact that Toril has a much thicker crust than earth. This would account for the Underdark caverns being as extensive as they are and the lack of earthquakes (torilquakes?). Also there would still be volcanic activity, just on a lesser scale.
-Yeah, I said as much, but I guess Mel doesn't like it.
That must have happened every time some planar traveller visits the realms. I think maybe that happened so often and some empires and states of the realms were so often connected to other planes (Netheril, the elves, the drow, Imaskari, Kara-Tur) that most of the people living in the realms had some immune systems to handle such things.
-Plague hammered the Imaskari, and was one of the major reasons their society fell...
-Plague hammered the Imaskari, and was one of the major reasons their society fell...
Well, that and, it is so hard to find good help.
Well, that and, it is so hard to find good help.
-Yeah, well. That's a problem everyone has to deal with.
I just want to give huge thanks for your response.
Wouldn't work, all live would die because of the radiation from the star. Plate tectonic results because the core is active and hot, it creates flowing lava systems in the core and the higher regions underneath the plates and melts rock and all the stuff in there, that flows upward, underneath the earth crust (is that the english word for a plate?) and this flowing lava let the plates move (like icebergs on the ocean). If plate tectonic stops, it could only be because the core itself cooled down and that would mean that also the magnetic field would collapse (like it did on Mars) and so one of the natural shields wich stops a lot of the radiation which cames from the sun would also collapse. Live would be dead, so there must be something other which protects Abeir-Toril from solar radiation. I'd say it is something magical, something the gods did, when the world was created. Maybe there is some strange thing in the core, which creates a shield or magnetic field but since there is no plate tectonic, its not iron and other metalls flowing around.
I am thinking about having things work like this: The Realms has an active inner and outer core just like the Earth. The magnetic field is generated by the outer core (liquid) flowing around the inner core (solid).
Toril itself is divided up into several super plates, which float along on the mantle just as they would normally. However, the entire crust of the world was altered by the Sundering. This explains away illogical geological formations such as so many mountain ranges.
The mantle is much cooler than the Earths and the crust is thicker as a result. This is likely due to an unnatural cooling process that took place when the crust was rearranged by the Sundering.
Volcano's are largely unnatural formations. You might think of them as "sores" on the face of Toril created by the Sundering. Otherwise, they'll function just like a typical Volcano with a magma chamber, a base, a conduit (pipe) for the lava, etc.
Magically speaking, after the Sundering many of the nature deities tried to keep the world in balance. They magically regulated the weather to keep it in similar conditions as it was pre-Sundering. They may have even altered air pressure and the like in the Underdark so that it was survivable. On Earth, how low can you descend into the earth before things become un-survivable?
On the Earth the Oceanic crust is 4-7 miles (6-11 km) thick. The Continental crust is an average of about 20 to 25 miles (30 to 40 km) and with a maximum of 45 miles (70 km) thick. I think this can easily account for the Underdark. However, considering its huge nature, how is it possible that the surface does not collapse and fall into the Underdark? Earthquakes HAVE to be limited to regions where the Underdark divides itself. Anyone who looks at a map of the Underdark will clearly see that it is divided into certain regions that are cut off from each other (such as the Earthroot).
Yes, but it would be different between summer and winter, espacial in Amn (three mountain ranges around, where the clouds would be caught in between, that must be one of the most humid places during the summer, something like rainforests like in tasmania or the big wet forests in some parts of europe would be the result, but it seemed to be more arid, good for agriculture).
Thanks for this. What would Cormyr look like, and what would happen to the Great Glacier? What impact would the Sea of Fallen Stars and the Moonsea have on climate in those areas?
Bluenose-
In this case though it started with the local area, with the "details" you describe, probably with no real thought that one day it would turn into a world. As it expanded things were added because they would be fun. In many ways that is a good thing because it's meant for enjoyment, but don't let anyone try to tell you that FR was a product of any sort of world-building concept. Which has the unfortunate side effect that things like plate tectonics, sea currents, prevailing winds, and their effects on geography, climate and ecology get passed by in favour of things that aren't realistic but that keep things that had been created for story purposes.
Yes, I know but with the 4E changes it does not have to be illogical anymore. We just need an explanation for the reason things are the way they are now. From that point forward, we can then work to make them logical, attributing everything that did not make sense previously to magic.
If anything, its almost as if the Underdark is the equivalent of the surface on most real worlds, and the part that others think of as the surface is really just a huge elevated shell (riddled with holes) that is held by various geological features away from the actual surface (the Underdark).
So the Underdark should have volcanos, and the volcanos that appear on the faux-surface are really just giant vents leading to the Elemental Plane of fire (with connections to the planets core below).
And, of course, with earthmotes thrown into the mix, things get even weirder - there is now a third 'tier' to the planets surface.
And again, I must stress Thay has active volcanoes, which erupted quite recently, during the spellplague IIRC.
Which CANNOT exist because the country has TEN Drow cities below it.
The fact that none of the Underdark races seem to have any problem with lava is simply amazing - not to mention that the air is never fouled....
The Drow city directly below Thaymount is actually said to enjoy "steam vents" and the like from the lava. Supposedly, it keeps the city nice and toasty.
Ha. Ha. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it'll be really toasty when Thaymount blows its top.
You're also right - the Underdark SHOULD have volcanoes in it. I might actually have to do some retconning to make the Underdark work. I don't want to do that, but oh well.
I want to say that the Underdark "officially" (in my Realms) begins roughly half a mile to a mile below the surface. However, I am not sure how the air pressure and such works - you could end up being crushed flat at that depth.
However, I think the more "space" (aka hard rock) between the surface and the Underdark itself would help prevent massive sink holes all over the place.
So the Underdark should have volcanos, and the volcanos that appear on the faux-surface are really just giant vents leading to the Elemental Plane of fire (with connections to the planets core below).
You're also right - the Underdark SHOULD have volcanoes in it. I might actually have to do some retconning to make the Underdark work. I don't want to do that, but oh well.
-The Underdark does indeed have volcanoes...Or, what you could call volcanoes in an underground location. Liriel Baenre's teacher- who had a funny sounding name that I don't remember off hand- was cast into a lava pool when Liriel's enemy was "shaking him down". He subsequently emerged from it as a Drowlich.
Since the Underdark is so obviously below sea level, wouldn't it just naturally flood with water?
Additionally, it is clear that air reaches the depths of the Underdark via portals to the plane of air. With the destruction of the Weave it is certain that these portals will either malfunction or stop working all together. This means that pretty much anything that requires air to breath dies.
Since the Underdark is so obviously below sea level, wouldn't it just naturally flood with water?
-Certain portions are. The Glimmersea, for instance. But, in areas where water can't gain entry, how can these caverns flood?
Additionally, it is clear that air reaches the depths of the Underdark via portals to the plane of air.
-Not the entire Underdark. Underdark has a few charts and such with hazards, and poor air/no air is one such hazard.
With the destruction of the Weave it is certain that these portals will either malfunction or stop working all together.
-Not necessarily. When Mystryl sacrificed herself, and there was no deity of magic (or Weave) for those couple of moments (ten rounds, I believe), the portals (seemingly) did not cease to exist. Same thing during the Time of Troubles.
As for the Time of Troubles, I don't think the Weave ever ceased to exist. Dead and wild magic zones appeared, but I don't think the Weave ever literally stopped existing.
In 4E the Weave is gone, completely, and regardless of what cannon states, in my Realms magical items and portals cease to function.
-----
I'm aware that the Underdark has various lakes and seas. However, I know in the real world that if you drill underground there is always danger of a tunnel flooding and what not. It might not be as big of a problem as I think, but I am pretty sure that any Underdark going under a body of water simply is not going to work.
There are several Drow cities beneath the Sea of Swords (one under the coastal city of Athkatla!), and Shanatar (Dwarves) extended well under the Lake of Steam.
And anyone who has worked in construction and done a LOT of repair work (as I have) would know that water ALWAYS finds a way down to the lowest point. Rock is porous - even dense rock - it WILL eventually seep through.
Also, what happens when a tidal wave hits? I'm sure several slammed into the southern coast after Halruaa blew up - and it appears Luiren has become a swampy mess because of it. What of Dambrath? The Crinti have lots of access to the Underdark and the Drow city of Tlindhet... shouldn't all of those Drow have drowned when the country flooded, even temporarily?
Don't try to make sense of the Realms - the original design was faulty, and no one is going to apply logic to it now.
Don't try to make sense of the Realms - the original design was faulty, and no one is going to apply logic to it now.
You are probably right. However, I don't care how much of the world I have to blow up, destroy, wash away, or burn - I am going to find a way to shove this square peg into a round hole. :P
Okay, hm. Let's see. In my Realms after the destruction of the Weave, I had all the Drow become Ilythiiri - the curse was broken. Some of them could have easily escaped back to the surface. Since a lot of monsters, like Illithid, are psionic based I can have them dash off into some type of demiplane.
To fix the problem of the Underdark I propose the following: Once the Weave was destroyed, water began to flow into the Underdark freely. Entire sections became flooded. Additionally, magma from the mantle began to flow heavily into all layers of the Underdark. Essentially, over the years, the magma rises up, "heals" the Underdark (a "scar" created by the Sundering), and is then cooled into hard rock by the flowing water.
At this point in time, there is no longer an Underdark as it was once known. Areas generally considered to be "the Underdark" are generally deep caverns under elevations far above sea level (mountains). So, in effect the "Underdark" would look similar to some of the caves we find in real life.
I know lava vents and the like exist in the Underdark. However, Markus and I are talking about literal volcanoes.
-I didn't know there was a difference.
Like on the surface of the Earth. Such things would produce noxious and hazardous gas, dangerous for anyone who breathes.
-And, like Underdark states, certain caverns have poor quality air, no air, or poisonous air. There are enough portals and entrances to the surface, however, to negate the idea of all of the Underdark having this problem. Oxygen-producing plantlife, too.
However, I know in the real world that if you drill underground there is always danger of a tunnel flooding and what not.
-Even if it's nowhere near a body of water? This is what I was getting at.
It might not be as big of a problem as I think, but I am pretty sure that any Underdark going under a body of water simply is not going to work.
-Off-hand, I can think of only one such tunnel: The tunnel that was under the Trackless Sea, that led the Dwarves and Drow to Maztica. And, that did indeed collapse, though I don't remember it was because of natural reasons.
-A constructed tunnel, though, there's no reason not to think it would collapse due to natural pressure and weight on it. Just this morning, I was driving through the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. I didn't die.
You know how you can dig down a little and reach water?
Thats "sea level".
When you go below that, anywhere, you hit water. Thats how wells work (the water is filtered by the sand making it pottable - hence the "water table").
There are rare exceptions to that (like Death Valley), but usually once you go down far enough, you hit that water Table.
In D&D, you dig a well, you hit some Drow in the head. :P
Markus you also brought up another interesting point. Where are people getting their water from? In communities not near rivers or fresh water lakes, they have to dig wells. Obviously... with the Underdark... that presents a problem. There would have to be some layer of water just above the Underdark for that to be possible, because I highly doubt every well dug by a commoner has a portal to the plane of water at the bottom. ;)
This means that the layers of Toril's crust would have to look something like this:
A strong clay-like layer covered by topsoil.
Below that would be the "water table" layer.
Below the water table is a water-proof rock type layer, which acts as the "roof" or "ceiling" for the Upperdark.
Have you ever gone to the beach?
You know how you can dig down a little and reach water?
Thats "sea level".
When you go below that, anywhere, you hit water. Thats how wells work (the water is filtered by the sand making it pottable - hence the "water table").
There are rare exceptions to that (like Death Valley), but usually once you go down far enough, you hit that water Table.
-This only happens when you have a body of water above you, however. I was not aware of this pheonomina, though.
In D&D, you dig a well, you hit some Drow in the head. :P
-Eh, he probably had it coming.
Where are people getting their water from? In communities not near rivers or fresh water lakes, they have to dig wells. Obviously... with the Underdark... that presents a problem.
-Asides for portal, there is also trade and 'mundane' magic.
I don't see people trading for water. Basically, when people settle in a region they settle there because of the water supply. It's the reason deserts aren't highly populated, and those that live there tend to live near sources of water.
Keep in mind that most commoners aren't wealthy. Sure, in our modern world there might be some who can afford to buy water (the most abundant resource on Earth), but that certainly isn't going to be true in the Realms. Maybe the extraordinarily wealthy, but not the common folk.
Mundane magic?
-Create Water spells. Decanters of Endless Water. Things of this sort.
I believe that magic is an important part of Toril, but magic shouldn't be used to explain why rivers flow upstream instead of down, except in very special circumstances. Magical geography and weather should be used to intensify experiences, not explain everyday phenomenon.
There are multiple magical deserts in Faerun alone, and even basic weather does not follow logical patterns. This forces us to explain it away with the 'its magic' excuse. To me, that's not satisfactory. I want to know the ecology of Cormyr, and to know what grows there I need to know its climate and weather.
I could just wave my hand, and say whatever I want about Cormyr. This is very true. However, in so doing, I feel like I cheapen the area itself - those mountains and lakes are there for more than just scenery. They serve a purpose.
A break with cannon gives me the opportunity to explore these options. I no longer have to accept 'it is magic' and move on. I can say it WAS magic that kept things as they once were, but no more and I am inclined to do just that.
I feel that this is very much in keeping with cannon, as we always knew the destruction of the Weave would bring about disastrous consequences. Massive climate change could certainly be one of them.
I don't see why we wouldn't have that, considering we have Adamantine, Mithril, and Faerzress all going on. We could just make-up a dense granite-like black rock and call it whatever we like, and place it about a mile below the surface.
After a little checking, I found out the mantle is about 400 miles thick, with another 250 miles of 'transition region' before you start hitting the hot stuff (lower mantle). You don't reach the molten core until you hit about 3000 miles!
So, if the entire underdark exists below the lithosphere, and below that 'Fantasy Rock' layer, then it we could easily have at least 400 miles of depth to place the entire Underdark (all three layers).
Wells would never be dug down that far - if the Upperdark doesn't begin until after a mile down, then there is no problem.
As far as pressure goes - I don't know enough about how that works to figure a work-around.
A lot of the oceanic pressure has to do with depth, but only in-so-far as the amount of water above you pressing down. I'd have to find a site about Spellunking to see if there is anything about pressure in deep caves.
There is no way commoners would have access to that stuff.
-It's a 1st Level Cleric spell. It's fairly basic. Depending on the place, you can go from the Clerics of X hand out water to the needy every day, to the Clerics of X "enslave" the population, in exchange for this necessity of life. Or, they create their own sources of water, in which everyone can freely take from.
Since water is always going to be an issue in the Underdark, how about we say there is some type of microbial life form that lives within the water, on the walls and the ceilings of the Underdark. They'd feed on the hydrogen in the water, releasing the oxygen as a waste product. (This might work since water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen.) They could also be responsible for creating unique stalactite structures, likely left over remnants of their corpses and other waste products.
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In terms of weather though, I'm seriously kinda angry. I'm working on it, albeit slowly because I'm not very knowledgeable on the matter, and some things really jump out, but first...
The Circumference of Toril.
I gave Toril the same circumference and shape of Earth. This makes it an oblate ellipsoid, meaning it is a sphere that is slightly flattened at the poles and bulging at the equator. The distance around the equator is 24,902 miles (40,075 kilometers). The distance around the poles is 24,860 miles (40,008 kilometers). This is only slightly larger than cannon by a few hundred miles, but it makes it exactly equal to Earth.
The Equator and Prime Meridian.
Using cannon information the equator runs through the southern part of Maztica (just below the published map), through the northern portion of Zakhara, and through the southern reaches of Kara-Tur. It also runs just south of Nimbral and falls well south of Chult. The Prime Meridian runs through the middle of Myth Drannor.
The Axial Tilt.
There was no definitive answer for the Axial Tilt of Toril, somewhere between 19° and 25° was given. So, I decided to use the same axial tilt as the Earth, which is 23.5° and within the given range.
Figuring out the Weather.
All of this makes Toril a very earth like planet in terms of length of day, length of year, axial tilt, circumference and size. This gives Toril seasons just like the earth, however there are some issues.
First there is the size. Faerun (not including Kara-tur) is roughly 14 million square miles in size. To give you an idea of how big that is Asia is 17 million square miles in size. The Heartlands (which includes Cormyr, the Dales, and the northern part of the Sea of Fallen Stars) is 3.5 million square miles which puts it at almost the size of the United States.
Now lets ignore travel concerns at the moment, because that is simply huge.
What does this all mean? Well it means a lot in terms of weather. If the Heartlands are that size then that means that everything to the west is roughly the size of Canada.
Let me explain this better. Water is important to the climate because it changes temperatures. The hottest and coldest places on a planet will be the interior of continents, far away from the influence of the oceans. The oceans act as a giant heat sink; absorbing heat in summer and releasing it in winter.
Land likewise has a great impact upon weather and climate. Unlike water, land quickly gains and loses heat. This leads to generally more erratic winds overland masses than over oceans as the land cools quickly and in different portions depending on its vegetation cover (the more plants, the slower it gains and loses heat; the fewer plants the quicker the process). This difference in cool is most noticeable in deserts, which lose their day's heat very quickly. Another important thing to note is that more evaporation occurs over water than over land due to humidity. So moist humid air (the air that brings the rain) comes from evaporations over oceans or other large bodies of water, like the Great Lakes. Most of the rain falling will be from these large bodies of water. Thus, being as large as Faerun is, the centers will be very dry because most of the moisture has already dropped out of the wind. A good example is the Gobi Desert in Central Asia.
However, things get worse. Mountains play a big role as well, as they are the only geographical features capable of affecting weather patterns outside of the sun's influence. Mountains are physical barriers to wind and cause massive disturbances in rainfall. Air rises as it goes up a mountain, cooling it. This cooling reduces the amount of moisture the air can hold and often results in rain. This means, that in general, a mountain range will have a wet and a dry side. If the range is a large one and winds are fairly consistent in their direction, the mountain can create a rain shadow, effectively creating a desert. This is even possible on a smaller scale. In the real world an island in Hawaii has an eastern side that receives the trade winds and an annual rainfall of 150 inches while the other side of the island only receives 9 inches of rain a year. A few (or in the case of the Hawaii) mountains can dramatically change weather.
Now look at Cormyr. First, there is the problem of distance to the ocean. Water from the ocean (in the form of clouds) has to travel VERY far to get there. However, on the way it hits several mountain ranges. The two closest are the Sunset Mountains and then the Stormhorns. They are effectively acting as a double barrier against any rain coming from that direction.
Now, there is the Sea of Fallen Stars. You might think that'll provide the water it needs, right? No, the wind carries water away from Cormyr, and even if it got lucky there is still the problem of the Thunder Peaks.
What about the Wyvernwater? Well that might provide some rain for a time. However, as all water flows from the mountains, which make their water as snowfall melts in the summer; eventually the Wyvernwater will dry up.
The Dragonmere could in theory provide enough rainfall for some of the southern region of Cormyr.
However, Cormyr is also in a bad location in relation to the sun and its heat. It's in a zone that would naturally make it drier than if it had been further to the north.
What does this mean for Cormyr? Likely, it'd slowly become a barren region, with any rain fall it gets coming from the Dragonmere. I imagine it might look something like the Australian Outback. It'd be somewhat cold and dry, with little rain, and what rain comes would largely be unpredictable. Some years may see regular rain and some not at all. Summer would be mild and winter would be very cold. Vegetation that can't survive in an extremely arid climate would die. There would be abandoned, dead lake and riverbeds throughout the country. There would also likely be dust storms. We are talking Dark Sun stuff here.
Now I could be wrong, but this is just my understanding of how climate works after reading up on it.
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As a result of this I am giving serious consideration toward going the Wheel of Time route. Basically, this means I can go with a "Breaking of the World" type of event - a Sundering 2.0 if you will, that takes place with the destruction of the Weave.
This would allow me to re-arrange the geography in a way that makes logical and consistent sense. Old Faerun would more-or-less become the Wheel of Time equivalent of the "Age of Legends". I do not want to go this route, but I do not think I have much choice.
I want an internally consistent world.
As I recall, it was stated that Toril is larger than Earth, though I don't recall a source off the top of my head.
Additionally, Toril has Selune and a number of satelites orbiting/ trailing it. This will effect the tidal activity, the rotation of the planet, and the degredation of that rotation. Also you need to determine where the moon came from. Did it break free from the planet itself? Was it an asteroid trapped in high orbit early on? Liquid origen? always solid? This will determine whether or not it is getting closer to them, or drifting further away. This is important as it will effect the days length, and the gravatational effect it has on the planet itself.
Next, what is the core like? Solid iron like ours is assumed to be, but with a liquid secondary layer? Solely Liquid as they assume mars to be? How is the gravitational field sustained if it is the latter?
The problem is without definitive answers to these questions, we can't begin to speculate on weather patterns, plate techtonics, or volcanic activity. In most cases, the world may very well be being sustained soley with magic, explaining a great deal more how the Spellplague proved so devastating to the land.
-RW
Bel
Also, there are still ways of determining how it would impact climate change in a given region. For example, creating a rainforest at the artic circle is going to have an impact. You'll still need heat, either from the sun or another source, and you'll still need rain. This heat would melt any ice at the circle and then cause sea levels to rise throughout Toril (just like global warming is doing in the real world).
Understanding the weather is more difficult, but climate shouldn't be that hard.
Bel
...which pretty much means I'm no longer gaming in the Realms. Of course, at this point in time all I was using was the maps and history anyway.
I'll still be buying Realms products for inspiration / ideas, but I've effectively gone full-on Homebrew.
...which pretty much means I'm no longer gaming in the Realms. Of course, at this point in time all I was using was the maps and history anyway.
As long as we have a ready supply of maps, a sense of awe and wonder and that all important imagination, we can forge new frontiers that don't require us crossing to where "here be dragons", the silly buggers are everywhere.