Chauntea is the greater goddess of life and fertility, thus nature in general;
- Silvanus is
Slimes have no business with a greater deity. Ghaunadaur is therefore
Corellon and Gruumsh
2 unnecessary 'greater deities' are cleared out of the way, and two other slots are refreshed
I don't think there's anything I can help you with. :P
I am not demanding or even requesting anyone else use these ideas. This is entirely for my own use. You can continue to make offerings to Corellon in your private shrines as long as you wish to. If you want him to not be utterly destroyed in my own home games, you could try a polite and convincing argument. You haven't, so as things are, I killed him 79 years ago.
-Ghaunadaur doesn't seem to make sense as a greater deity alone
-he broke from Lolth
-there presently aren't Intermediate and lower dieties floating around solo
It's a hasty fix and its one of the things I'm most curious to readjust. Thoughts?
That's one of the trickier bits I was trying to figure out:
-Ghaunadaur doesn't seem to make sense as a greater deity alone
-he broke from Lolth
-there presently aren't Intermediate and lower dieties floating around solo
It's a hasty fix and its one of the things I'm most curious to readjust. Thoughts?
-I don't have problems with Ghaunadaur being an Intermediate or Lesser deity, that part is fine. There really isn't much of a connection between Ghaunadaur and Shar, though. The closest I can link the two would be that a cult in Thay worshiped Lolth and Shar as the same being, and that, to them, being as that Ghaunadaur was subservient to Lolth, it would be subservient to Shar was well. A more likely candidates for connection would be Cyric, since both he and Ghaunadaur have a 'crazy' and/or 'chaotic' aspect to both themselves and their followers. Being imprisoned, Cyric could also use the aid of others, to act in his stead. Indeed, Cyricists can also also be classified as outcasts to society (a portfolio of Ghaunadaur).
Chauntea as the head goddes of nature dieties is fine but are you still holding onto her being a face of Yondalla, the patron goddes of Hin?
Gruumsh beating Corellon, aye? Gruumsh gaining some lightning based powers will not help him defeat a god of battle magic like Corellon. Messing with the pantheon as it is might rise to problems later on though, when new powersource books come along. What was your motive apart from pruning the list of greater dieties? Destroying racial icon gods was also on your list of absolutely neccesary? Why not axe Moradin, Lolth and Ilsensine etc. aswell?
As for Corellon, I feel bringing the core of the pantheon into a more logical core meant greater deities must move beyond simply racial identities. The changes to Gruumsh have done this, but I felt swapping out Corellon balanced the situation more to my liking. My original intent was to elliminate all of them in favor of new conceptual deities, but Redefining Gruumsh's merger with Talos seemed more satisfactory. As for Moradin, I was considering making him an intermediate deity, rather than eliminating him, but am at a loss for where to place him. I have similar thoughts on Lolth.
Corellon and Gruumsh made the most sense as greater deities for their potential role outside of simply being racial figure heads, but they feel to me to have stagnated. I feel the Angarradh/Kozah dynamic will give me more room to create new happenings to work with.
Yondolla is never mentioned in 4E FR material that I'm aware of. Sheela as 'subservient' to Chauntea seems fine, as I don't see a more logical place to have her than with the goddess of life, but I'm curious if you have another suggestion.
Edit: Included suggested ideas I intend to use in the OP
Now. Moving beyond racial identities is all well and good.
The problem there is, Angharradh really doesn't have anything that allows her to move beyond racial boundaries. Everything she does is already done in some respect by existing human deities. Her portfolio, according to Demihuman Deities, is 'Spring, fertility, planting, birth, defense, wisdom'. Pretty much all of those are already covered, and at least one isn't going to appeal much to fey.
Corellon, on the other hand, has 'Magic and elven magic (especially elven High Magic), music, arts, crafts, war, the elven race (especially gold elves), poets, poetry, bards, warriors' listed for his. He's one of the few magic-associated gods left after the Spellplague, and could easily pick up human worshippers - Bards especially immediately springs to mind, with the other associations. Yes, some of what Corellon does is also redundant, but more of it is unique and associated with things that aren't already fully covered by long-standing human gods(Or in the case of magic, by dead human gods). Indeed, the 4E FRPG lists 'those who work magic' as being among his followers. Oghma is probably the biggest competitor in that sense, but seems more likely to appeal more to wizards and bards than say, sorcerors. Swordmages especially I could see gravitating towards Corellon, who is both a warrior and a mage and thus pretty much perfectly suited to a class that combines magic and martial prowess.
Additionally, Angharradh just doesn't have the support and widespread belief to make it as even a major Elven goddess - Her following has been almost exclusively Moon Elven. Assuming for a moment that Corellon died, which is unlikely for reasons I'll cover in a moment, the elves aren't particularly going to rally around her. Moon Elves, sure. Sun Elves? Absolutely not, most of them don't even believe in her in the first place and think her to be a Moon Elf misunderstanding. A few of them debate her existence and occasionally give her worship, but most? No. In the absence of Corellon, they'd likely either disbelieve that Corellon had been killed and continue to worship him regardless, or turn to Sune-as-Hanali or Labelas Enoreth, both of whom are held in high regard by the Sun Elves. Other elven subraces don't even debate her existence and don't worship her at all, so they're going to stick with the members of the Seldarine they're usually associated with, or turn to human gods.
On the human front, again, Corellon has more widespread appeal - And he's rather likely to have more recognition among other races. If you've only heard of one Elven god, chances are good it's going to be Corellon. Oh yeah, he's that elf god, right? You're more likely to know of him and depending on your interests, he's probably more likely to appeal to you.
On a Fey front... Angharradh doesn't really have much in the way of fey connotations, whereas Corellon does. I can see Erevan Ilesere becoming God of the Fey and the Feywild before Angharradh, frankly, due to him being more associated with fey and rather likely better known among fey.
On Hallowed Ground gives us the idea of Corellon taking the guise of small fey creatures and wandering Arvandor talking to people in hopes of coming across new ideas and ways of thinking, and DD notes him again as being humble, open to new ideas and new ways of thinking, even ones that come from mortals, and taking a keen interest in other cultures - Again, he's more suited to branching out to other races, since he was already interested in them in the first place. So it's not much of a stretch to imagine him, in the wake of the Spellplague and the deaths of so many other gods, including the loss of at least one of his own pantheon(Anyone remember Rillifane?), branching out to other races, particularly the fey elves/eladrin have long been associated with anyway. Indeed, Eladrin now *are* fey, so it's not much of a stretch at all.
Angharradh... Isn't really mentioned as having any interests outside of elves. She's mostly just associated with Moon Elves and Corellon.
As for Corellon dying, remember that gods, particularly the heads of pantheons, do not exist in a vacuum. Corellon is a greater god, according to 3e stats one of the most powerful at that, and anyone attacking him short of stuff like what's presented in Evermeet where Lolth is betraying him hardcore, is going to have to deal with the rest of the Seldarine and likely several of Corellon's allies as well. Lolth only almost succeeded in her plans to eliminate him because she was able to betray him from within the pantheon. (Sehanine is supposed to have been instrumental in this, I suppose you can substitute either Angharradh existing before she was supposedly created, or say Selune helped him.)
Basically, Corellon has a much, much better chance of actually making it as a primary god of things, the power to do it, the interests and portfolio to do it, and the support of all of his previous core of worshippers. He fills a role that no one else really does right now, and is likely to happily accept other races if it seems beneficial to his goals. This makes him IMO pretty much indispensible as a god, even if I didn't like him at all.
As for why I find him interesting, I like that his portfolio is both all over the place and focused, and it's also relevant to my own personal interests, I find the idea of a god who actually has some interest in what mortals think and is willing to get ideas from them pretty cool, and also easy to use should I decide I want a god involved in something, the whole thing with him being male, female, both and neither appeals to me strongly for personal reasons, and his contradictions make him a little more human(elven? You know what I mean) and more accessible in feel - Drow can't be the Feywarden specialty priest given in DD, but the same book also mentions that his clergy contains some dark elves, and you can make some interesting inferences about him from that.
The little soap opera with him and Lolth and Gruumsh is some good background to make current conflicts from, IMO, and not particularly played out to me, especially with the death of Eilistraee putting him now in even more close opposition to her with his acceptance of her followers as his own. There's some good opportunity for exploration there - How is he dealing with that, how are any elves finding out about this dealing with it, etc. I like a bit of conflict and even outright hypocrisy in my gods, it makes them feel more alive like say, the greek gods, and less like 'I am perfect and wonderful with no flaws'. So Corellon just kind of does it for me. YMMV. :P
But there you go, my thoughts and reasonings. Now you can tell me why you find Angharradh so interesting, and why you think she *does* have what it takes to be a major multi-racial goddess.
Ghaunadaur under Cyric is a great idea. Consider it adopted.
-Glad to see. ;)
What about the eladrin/elf distinction would be pro-Corellon?
-Come again?
As I've mentioned, I don't believe Moradin, as presently described, belongs as a greater deity, but I'm not sure what to do with him. Moved under Torm and redefined as a craft and duty god?
Lolth seems to have moved away from simply drow, and I'm torn between emphasizing her change in direction to a goddess of chaos or subsuming her into Shar's clique.
Do these sound like people who would work together?
From what I can tell, Ghaundaur is meant to be a fill-in for Tharizdun from Greyhawk and 4e core. He's an ancient, maddened god with deep connections to both demons and the Far Realm. The fact that he only has a few creatures worshiping is kind of strange, given gods are supposed to feed off belief, but its possible he has another avenue of power (or food so to speak) open to him.
I have no objection necessarily to using a Cyric/Ghaunadaur connection in your own homerule games but consider this. Both gods presume they are the only ones who have the right to exist. They're not like Asmodeus or Bane and just want to control it all and rule with an iron fist - they want to destroy all who oppose them, most likely as painfully and horribly as possible. Cyric believes he's the one and only god who deserves to be worshiped. Ghaunadaur, as far as I can figure, feels more or less the same way.
Do these sound like people who would work together?
-Both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were convinced of their own racial superiority over all other racial groups on Earth, and both worked out alliances that benefited and worked for both. That, ultimately, an entity or organization has plans for solitary domination over whatever the prize is does not bar said entities or organizations from forging alliances of temporary convenience.
From what I can tell, Ghaundaur is meant to be a fill-in for Tharizdun from Greyhawk and 4e core. He's an ancient, maddened god with deep connections to both demons and the Far Realm.
-That really does not do much justice in describing Ghaunadaur and what it is about at all. I'd recommend rereading Ghaunadaur's entry in Demihuman Deities.
Honestly, I was looking for a name without baggage to be a new Fey deity. You're pro-Corellon argument seems legitimate enough, but as you mentioned, he's "that one elf god." I imagine it has a bit to do with sheer bloodlust, but I'm trying to reshape things. How would you recommend reshaping Corellon to move beyond the 'that one elf god' identity?
As I've mentioned, I don't believe Moradin, as presently described, belongs as a greater deity, but I'm not sure what to do with him. Moved under Torm and redefined as a craft and duty god?
Lolth seems to have moved away from simply drow, and I'm torn between emphasizing her change in direction to a goddess of chaos or subsuming her into Shar's clique.
The problem with using pretty much any existing god is that yeah, they have a lot of baggage. Corellon perhaps especially since he's been 'that elf god' since 1e's Deities and Demigods came out in 1980, so he's got 29 years of being 'that elf god' IRL. But within the realms the baggage may be less, and within the realms few other elven gods will be free of baggage, including Angharradh. Perhaps especially her since she was controversial among elves to begin with.
Perhaps go the route you're going with !Gruumsh and give him a different name to be using amongst fey and humans? The elves/eladrin still know and worship him as Corellon, but he's revealed himself to other races as a different god, perhaps feeling himself that yeah, being the god of the elves carries some baggage with it. Selune, Sune and Akadi pretended to be elven goddess for thousands and thousands of years, Gruumsh pretended to be a human god, why not Corellon pulling the same trick? Easy enough. Though honestly with the connection the majority of the Seldarine already has with the fey would likely lead to fey being perfectly fine with accepting Corellon as a god as-is. It'd be mostly other races like humans that might have trouble with it.
I don't think that much about him really needs to be changed, since he does have such an odd and fairly unique schtick. Mostly a marketing thing, really, and you could tie it to whatever direction you go with Lolth, for that matter - If she's expanding into non-elves, embracing more of a role as a goddess of chaos, he's going to be following that as well, emphasising the non-elven aspects of what he represents, in order to maintain opposition to her and try to keep her from gaining ground. If she's Shar, well, he's already against her both ways, so he's just going to expand his opposition if this was something he was previously unaware of.
But yeah, perhaps a name change to pretend to simply be a new god protecting the newly returned feywild from the ravages of the world - and the world from the feywild, since there's some nasty stuff there. Play up the protector aspect aspect, and of course his association with magic, as well as the music and arts and crafts stuff to bring in the more artistic sorts who would find inspiration from the feywild and fey things. Or hell, even without a namechange he could just simply expand his role to such things in all the chaos. No one has apparently stepped in to do such things since the spellplague anyway, so it doesn't seem to be a wildly contested job. (Also, hell, if he did it right after/during the Spellplague, that's a couple generations of humans by the current year, during which him being 'that elf god' might very well have been largely forgotten by humans.)
(The problem with me thinking about 'how would I change Corellon' is that generally I think he's fine as-is and doesn't need to be changed much, rofl)
-Both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were convinced of their own racial superiority over all other racial groups on Earth, and both worked out alliances that benefited and worked for both. That, ultimately, an entity or organization has plans for solitary domination over whatever the prize is does not bar said entities or organizations from forging alliances of temporary convenience.
Good point, though I'll reserve the right to disagree here since the Imperial Japanese and Nazis were both a wee bit closer to lawful evil than insane-chaotic evil in my book.
That really does not do much justice in describing Ghaunadaur and what it is about at all. I'd recommend rereading Ghaunadaur's entry in Demihuman Deities.
Allow me to clarify. I meant that was what Ghaunadaur was being shoehorned into for 4e (note he's expressly used for that purpose in the FR conversion of H2). I'm aware that wasn't his role previously.
Will check out the book though.
Good point, though I'll reserve the right to disagree here since the Imperial Japanese and Nazis were both a wee bit closer to lawful evil than insane-chaotic evil in my book.
-Well, truthfully, alignment doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, just because two groups/people have differing goals, that doesn't mean that they can't make temporary alliances of convenience. With Cyric, he's imprisoned, and though that doesn't really seem to make a difference in terms of him interacting with his clergy, he might need "outside help" in other places. That's where Ghaunadaur comes in. And with Ghaunadaur, it has it's own weird agenda, and perhaps Cyric plays into that. Maybe it thinks it can absorb Cyric by working alongside him and is "setting him up". Maybe it needs someone to "take the blame" for somethings it is going to do in the future. There's lots of scenarios where it all works out.
-Take the Anti-Seldarine, for example. By and large, the entire pantheon hates/ed each other. Selvatarm hates/ed Lolth, and Lolth hates/ed him. During Lolth's Silence, it was in Selvetarm's best interests to defend Lolth from Vhaeraun, and so he did.
Will check out the book though.
-Always a good idea.
The problem with using pretty much any existing god is that yeah, they have a lot of baggage. Corellon perhaps especially since he's been 'that elf god' since 1e's Deities and Demigods came out in 1980, so he's got 29 years of being 'that elf god' IRL. But within the realms the baggage may be less, and within the realms few other elven gods will be free of baggage, including Angharradh. Perhaps especially her since she was controversial among elves to begin with.
Perhaps go the route you're going with !Gruumsh and give him a different name to be using amongst fey and humans? The elves/eladrin still know and worship him as Corellon, but he's revealed himself to other races as a different god, perhaps feeling himself that yeah, being the god of the elves carries some baggage with it. Selune, Sune and Akadi pretended to be elven goddess for thousands and thousands of years, Gruumsh pretended to be a human god, why not Corellon pulling the same trick? Easy enough. Though honestly with the connection the majority of the Seldarine already has with the fey would likely lead to fey being perfectly fine with accepting Corellon as a god as-is. It'd be mostly other races like humans that might have trouble with it.
I don't think that much about him really needs to be changed, since he does have such an odd and fairly unique schtick. Mostly a marketing thing, really, and you could tie it to whatever direction you go with Lolth, for that matter - If she's expanding into non-elves, embracing more of a role as a goddess of chaos, he's going to be following that as well, emphasising the non-elven aspects of what he represents, in order to maintain opposition to her and try to keep her from gaining ground. If she's Shar, well, he's already against her both ways, so he's just going to expand his opposition if this was something he was previously unaware of.
But yeah, perhaps a name change to pretend to simply be a new god protecting the newly returned feywild from the ravages of the world - and the world from the feywild, since there's some nasty stuff there. Play up the protector aspect aspect, and of course his association with magic, as well as the music and arts and crafts stuff to bring in the more artistic sorts who would find inspiration from the feywild and fey things. Or hell, even without a namechange he could just simply expand his role to such things in all the chaos. No one has apparently stepped in to do such things since the spellplague anyway, so it doesn't seem to be a wildly contested job. (Also, hell, if he did it right after/during the Spellplague, that's a couple generations of humans by the current year, during which him being 'that elf god' might very well have been largely forgotten by humans.)
(The problem with me thinking about 'how would I change Corellon' is that generally I think he's fine as-is and doesn't need to be changed much, rofl)
Thought - after the battle with Gruumsh-Talos -> Kozah, Corellon regained his female aspect, appearing as either gender. Angharradh is the moon elf name for this aspect. The reactive portfolio definition you mentioned also makes sense. This turn of events would expand his/her significance while simultaneously creating some controversy among elves, helping to explain why more of them might begin to worship deities outside of the traditional pantheon. With a slight increase in elves worshiping new deities at the same time that the portfolio is expanded, that would better fuel maintained resistance to Gruumsh/Talos/Kozah and Lolth. Gruumsh and Corellon thus both have some rivalry within their faiths, but clearly in vastly different forms.
OP adjusted.