But Shar is still alive and well.
I know this is a new edition with a new rules set, but is there any "in world" reason why magic used by practitioners of the Shadow Weave couldn't function the way it did before the Spell Plague?
Or did the Shadow Weave go bye bye too?
Just wondering.
Bloodshine
I do not know at this time if there will be a Weave/Shadow Weave distinction in the 4E Realms.
My guess would be no.
That said, 4E does support the idea of various power sources (martial, arcane, divine) so I don't think it's a stretch to build on the idea that one is drawing from the power/remnants of what was the Shadow Weave.
My opinion, of course.
Hopefully we'll have these and more questions answered by the time the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide is released in August.
Just as Mystra controlled the Weave, the goddess Shar controlled the Shadow Weave. Not satisfied with her portion, Shar plotted to seize control of both. She miscalculated. When Cyric murdered Mystra, the Weave collapsed so completely that Shar not only failed to gather up the fraying threads, she also lost control over the Shadow Weave.
Just as magic persists without Mystra, so does the dusky power of shadow endure without Shar acting as an intermediary. Powerful necromancers have developed their own unique methods for accessing the dim energies of the Shadowfell.
This article deals with this.
Ah, well that explains it then. Thanks alot!
Bloodshine
Ah, well that explains it then. Thanks alot!
Bloodshine
Well, regrettably, it doesn't, exactly. "Losing control" over the Shadow Weave isn't precisely the same as saying that the Shadow Weave is gone.
Mr. Cordell may have meant that, and just chosen poorly in communicating what he meant, but it remains an open question, in my mind.
It's fairly safe to assume that the Shadow Weave suffered the same fate as the Weave.
Mystra is dead, so it's understandable that the Weave died with her.
I wouldn't necessarily credit the idea as "understandable," given that Mystra/Mystryl/Midnight has died twice before and been reincarnated each time.
Nor, since EG has described the Weave as the embodiment of the "vitality of the world," does it make much sense that the Weave is gone and yet the world lives on.
But then, that's neither here nor there, I suppose.
That's a bit nitpicky in my opinion.
It's fairly safe to assume that the Shadow Weave suffered the same fate as the Weave.
It may be nitpicky. However, when Mystryl died and was reincarnated as Mystra, she was able to immediately recreate the Weave after losing control to Karsus. Shar didn't even die - given that she created the Shadow Weave, it doesn't necessarily follow that the Shadow Weave would follow the Weave into oblivion.
That's not to say that WoTC isn't going to come up with some kind of explanation for why Shar doesn't recreate the Shadow Weave. Just that it may make as much sense as the God of Justice getting jealous and murdering someone.
Is it the loss of both that caused the Spellplague? Did the resulting chaos cause the creation of a new weave impossible? If so why does Shar feel the need to stop another god of magic from rising? If a new weave can be created, why doesn't Shar do it herself?
If a new weave can be created, why doesn't Shar do it herself?
-She might not be able to. Shar didn't create the Shadow Weave, she appropriated it from Mystra, so she might not have the 'ability' to.
-She might not be able to. Shar didn't create the Shadow Weave, she appropriated it from Mystra, so she might not have the 'ability' to.
Aaah, okay. That makes sense. Thanks
-She might not be able to. Shar didn't create the Shadow Weave, she appropriated it from Mystra, so she might not have the 'ability' to.
No, actually she did create it. (pg 7 Magic of Faerun)
No, actually she did create it. (pg 7 Magic of Faerun)
-Incorrect. This has been retconned numerous times. The last retcon was in the Superadventure trilogy, with Rich Baker then reversed via his thread.
Assuming that the Shadow Weave still exists, and also assuming that the nature of the Shadow Weave wasn't changed by the Spell Plague, a user of the Shadow Weave would have access to the type of magic that existed before the Spell Plague.
Am I right, or am I completely off my rocker?:P
Bloodshine
That is a fairly large assumption to be making considering the circumstances isn't it?
Again? Good lords I wish they would just make up their minds about that atrocity and be done with it...
-Yeah, well...
Assuming that the Shadow Weave still exists, and also assuming that the nature of the Shadow Weave wasn't changed by the Spell Plague, a user of the Shadow Weave would have access to the type of magic that existed before the Spell Plague.
-Not necessarily. They'd just be able to tap into Shadow Magic.
-Incorrect. This has been retconned numerous times. The last retcon was in the Superadventure trilogy, with Rich Baker then reversed via his thread.
I knew there was a reason I didn't like that adventure series...
I just pretend they don't exist...
The last I heard Rich Baker on these forums in the Ask the Designer Thread clearly stated that the Shadow Weave still exists... just as the Shadow Magic Power Source or something along those lines. So it's still around.
If it is not retconned to be destroyed yet again, then it will likely be retconned to mean: "The Shadow Magic Power Source is always the way the Shadow Weave functioned." Shadow Magic will likely be under the thumb of Shar.
The only difference will be that they will not gain arbitrary bonuses against other types of magic, one of the flaws with the shadow weave to begin with. The penalties and bonuses should have gone both ways, since anyone linked to the shadow weave would have as much a problem countering weave spells as a weave caster would have against the shadow weave, unless Shar was granting favors to shadow weavers, which should have set AO off, since that would definitely be an incursion into Mystra's domain.
I knew there was a reason I didn't like that adventure series...
-Don't worry, there are plenty of other reasons, asides for just that.
If it is not retconned to be destroyed yet again, then it will likely be retconned to mean: "The Shadow Magic Power Source is always the way the Shadow Weave functioned."
-Right.
Shadow Magic will likely be under the thumb of Shar.
-Based on the quote, "...Shar not only failed to gather up the fraying threads, she also lost control over the Shadow Weave.", I don't think this is going to be the case. Shadow Magic, and the "Shadow Magic Source" are likely to simply exist, so that people can use it, but not have to pay homage to Shar.
It was really no different than using the Weave by Mystra the only thing that changed was who controlled the power source, and the fact that Shar was also the deity of secrets with a bad reputation also ensured it didn't spread as fast as it could have.
Likely, more people use the Shadow Magic Source in the 4E Realms, but a sizable portion still pay homage to Shar. So in the end Shar still wins - Mystra is out of the way, Shar pretty much remains constant throughout the whole ordeal... not really rising or falling in power, but remaining the same, but with the removal of her most powerful enemy. So in the end, a net plus for her.
It's a pity, though, I think Shar could have made an interesting custodian of the Weave - where magic became secret, hidden, forgotten and unknowable to most. A completely different outlook than the spread-it-as-fast-as-you-can previous custodians of the Weave. (And a way to self-limit power without a gazillion Chosen.)
Of course, they didn't have to pay homage to Shar in 3E either. It's just that the majority of Shadow Weave users were Sharran, but other non-Sharran SW users existed. Even non-evil ones.
The wisdom penalty did kind of give Shar pretty much a monopoly though.
It's a pity, though, I think Shar could have made an interesting custodian of the Weave - where magic became secret, hidden, forgotten and unknowable to most. A completely different outlook than the spread-it-as-fast-as-you-can previous custodians of the Weave. (And a way to self-limit power without a gazillion Chosen.)
... Hold the phone.
Are you really suggesting that Shar should control both the Weave and the Shadow Weave?
I mean, hand both the Weaves to Shar and it wouldn't be "Points of Light" but Welcome to the Lightless Abyss, here is your complimentary grave, try not to damage the sides as your fall in screaing and writhing in terror and pain.
Of course, they didn't have to pay homage to Shar in 3E either. It's just that the majority of Shadow Weave users were Sharran, but other non-Sharran SW users existed. Even non-evil ones.
-Untrue. We know that Shar was the "keeper" of the Shadow Weave, and that she decided who could tap into it and who couldn't. Unlike Mystra, she never received a mandate where she had to allow anyone who wanted it to utilize it, regardless of their intentions.
... Hold the phone.
Are you really suggesting that Shar should control both the Weave and the Shadow Weave?
-Being that, according to the last retcon, the Shadow Weave actual is/was a part of the Weave that Mystra could not control and had no access to, Shar could have theoretically understood how the Weave worked as well.
-Being that, according to the last retcon, the Shadow Weave actual is/was a part of the Weave that Mystra could not control and had no access to, Shar could have theoretically understood how the Weave worked as well.
Indeed, but as per your previous post, she didn't have to grant anyone she didn't like access to it (simplistic I know)... so whether she could and whether it could happen in any non-setting ending way would seem to be two utterly different things.
From my look at them, wizards in 4e are considerably less powerful than they were in 3e, at least from what I can tell, so I wouldn't be too sure about that point...
At the very least, wizards are a lot less versatile than they used to be. I have to agree with you that pre-4E wizards were probably the ones who had fewer limits (as much as that matters).
Indeed, but as per your previous post, she didn't have to grant anyone she didn't like access to it (simplistic I know)... so whether she could and whether it could happen in any non-setting ending way would seem to be two utterly different things.
-Come again? I'm not exactly getting what you mean.
At the very least, wizards are a lot less versatile than they used to be. I have to agree with you that pre-4E wizards were probably the ones who had fewer limits (as much as that matters).
-According to the character optimization people, Wizards, Clerics and Druids were all 'broken'. Of course, that something doesn't work in theory doesn't mean that it's a problem in actuality, and vice-versa. Like everything else, as long as you don't have players looking to "maximize" things, you'd be fine.
-Come again? I'm not exactly getting what you mean.
I was referring to the fact that in your post you mentioned that Shar was never mandated to allow universal access to the Shadow Weave. If she was made custodian of Mystra's Weave too then even with a mandate it would provide a conflict of interest... and without one I can see Char cutting off everyone who worked against her agents and swallowing the world (with no Magic except previously stored items) to fight back with.
And with a mandate, well, how long would it take her to try and subvert it... especially in a seeting where the Overfather has been marginalised.
If she was made custodian of Mystra's Weave too then even with a mandate it would provide a conflict of interest...
-Oh, alright. I get you now.
Yes, I'm fully aware of what it would mean for Shar to become goddess of the entire Weave and not just the Shadow Weave. I was assuming, of course, that she'd be under a similar mandate as Mystra. That should, in theory, prevent her from immediately going into "let's end the world now" mode.
Naturally, she'd try and find loopholes to get around the mandate, but that's half the amusement. While Shar wouldn't be able to cut you off directly for working against her plans - don't be shocked to find Sharran assassins hunting you down for interfering with her and her church!
Magic, overall, being a goddess of secrets, would become a lot more mysterious and "secret" than it currently is - not a bad thing, really, if you like the fact that magic should be something that isn't common. Which, if you take a close look at the Realms (ignoring the big picture and the insane number of epic characters)... is more or less how it is currently.
I'm looking at things from a DM perspective. What is more exciting? A neutral evil goddess of magic who strives to keep its secrets hidden except from her most loyal of faithful (thereby limiting her own power), while plotting to end the world, and sending out her faithful to hunt down your goodly heroic PC's, while at the same time looking for loopholes in the mandate placed upon her to achieve her ultimate goals. Or a neutral good goddess of magic who strives to spread magic everywhere and to everyone, to the point she becomes so powerful, she has to constantly create more Chosen to hold parts of her divine power, who meddle constantly in the worlds events, who seeks loopholes in her mandate so she can meddle in world affairs even more, while her Chosen are off doing heroic things that you'd rather have your PC's doing?
...and forcing me to make super long run-on sentences.
From a DM perspective, give me Shar, please.
-Incorrect. This has been retconned numerous times. The last retcon was in the Superadventure trilogy, with Rich Baker then reversed via his thread.
Tells much about the people who are in control of FR now...
That the Shadow Weave was added to the Realms so carelessly says more about how the design process worked eight years ago than now.
I'm looking at things from a DM perspective. What is more exciting?...etc
Oh I don't know, from a player perspective I would be quite in favour of a Goddess who isn't likely to cut me off from the weave for 5 five minutes it takes her assassins to catch up with me... I mean Cyric got 1000 years stuck in a comfy spot still able to grant power to his faithful for slaughtering another Goddess in her home plane... would they even bother punishing Shar for what could effectively put down to an innocent look and a claim of "technical difficulties".
From a DM perspective Shar might be good, I can't answer having never been a DM. But from my own? being a unaligned or good character who is depending on the law-abiding nature of a Goddess who wants to End All Things? Don't much fancy it.
But then I also disagree with you about Mystra and her Chosen, so I doubt there would be much interface in our points of view in the first place.
Descriptions of the Shadow Weave have shifted and flip-flopped because unlike the core Realms, where the published information is the tip of a pre-existing iceberg, there's no underlying lore or sense to the Shadow Weave beyond the sum of what various people have written about it in sourcebook overviews, novel appearances, and messageboard posts.
That the Shadow Weave was added to the Realms so carelessly says more about how the design process worked eight years ago than now.
The first appearance of the shadow weave was The Shadow Stone, by Rich Baker (IIRC) and it was from Imaskari writings that the shadow mage learned of the power, and strongly hinted that they got it from the dark forces they turned to to avoid worshiping the gods. It is in Return of the Archwizards that Shar is given control of the shadow weave.
That's the thing. If Shar were to become the goddess of the Weave she couldn't cut you off to kill you. That would be in clear violation of the mandate.
I've always been in favor of having the Weave become an independent construct, without a deity controlling it. If there had to be a 'god of the Weave' let it be more of a 'guardian' or 'custodian' than a 'master'.
My problem with Mystra, one of them at least, was that she constantly expanded her domain beyond that of just the Weave and Magic. She had too many Chosen, all of whom were very powerful, that constantly were involved (directly or indirectly) in events that had huge impacts on the setting. It's all very... blah. Especially considering I have a strong dislike of epic NPCs in general, and favor seeing NPC's more like they are done in Eberron.
My prospective is this: If you're running the typical D&D Game the PCs are the good guys. The bigger and badder the evil guys are, the more work the PCs have before them and the bigger heroes they can be in the end.
I'd imagine, though, if Shar were to ever become 'goddess of the Weave' that Selune would likewise see a rise in power. That was another reason I disliked Mystra, she was so powerful and all-encompassing that she detracted from the real battle: the war between Shar and Selune.
So as a good PC you likely wouldn't worship Shar, you'd likely turn to her weaker goodly sister, Selune for both guidance and protection from her darker, more powerful, sisters mechanizations. Thankfully, since Selune is weaker than Shar that means she needs your help in doing battle against her... which brings me back to my main point.
That's the thing. If Shar were to become the goddess of the Weave she couldn't cut you off to kill you. That would be in clear violation of the mandate.
And what would happen if she did? Would Ao really bestir himself for the death of an adventurer, a party of adventurers? And what sentence would be handed out? Paltry wouldn't even begin to describe it.
Setting aside the possibility completely, as you seem to not be willing to contemplate it. Let us consider an alternate situation, not including a "break" in your connection to the weave and thus to her mandate that would still allow her to do you over good and proper :
What is to stop her feeding into the minds of her minions your use of the weave? Those creeping up would know what magical defenses you had, of every item that was either linked to the weave or disturbed it, of the nature of your every spell the moment you started the gestures to begin it.
That is just a single example of how, even without imperiling her "instructions", she could put a magic user set against her to great difficulty. Ask yourself, would it really be against Shar's character and motivations to do this?
I've always been in favor of having the Weave become an independent construct, without a deity controlling it. If there had to be a 'god of the Weave' let it be more of a 'guardian' or 'custodian' than a 'master'.
Not the envious keeper of secrets, Shar then.
My problem with Mystra, one of them at least, was that she constantly expanded her domain beyond that of just the Weave and Magic. She had too many Chosen, all of whom were very powerful, that constantly were involved (directly or indirectly) in events that had huge impacts on the setting. It's all very... blah. Especially considering I have a strong dislike of epic NPCs in general, and favor seeing NPC's more like they are done in Eberron.
The thought occurs that given your general dislike of Epic NPCs whether such a line could ever have been done in a way that you don't take exception to? Personally I wouldn't mind a cut back on the power levels, as long as the characters a) remained and b) stopped being everyone's favourite scapegoat. Looks an awful lot like I am getting neither.
I'd imagine, though, if Shar were to ever become 'goddess of the Weave' that Selune would likewise see a rise in power. That was another reason I disliked Mystra, she was so powerful and all-encompassing that she detracted from the real battle: the war between Shar and Selune.
Really? Why would Selune rise in power? Shar would be given a new portfolio and greater power because of it, but what would Selune gain? To my own, very limited knowledge, since the ToT the basis of a deity's power is their worshippers. Has this been changed again in 4E? Nothing I have read has suggested that any such balancing would take place... even to the lesser extent that you suggest. Could you provide your source?
So as a good PC you likely wouldn't worship Shar, you'd likely turn to her weaker goodly sister, Selune for both guidance and protection from her darker, more powerful, sisters mechanizations. Thankfully, since Selune is weaker than Shar that means she needs your help in doing battle against her... which brings me back to my main point.
Would I? What if I wanted to worship someone else... or in fact any or every deity who isn't Selune. This is not a bideific setting. This isn't Selune vs Shar.
that would have been an interesting end to a plot
I've always been in favor of having the Weave become an independent construct, without a deity controlling it. If there had to be a 'god of the Weave' let it be more of a 'guardian' or 'custodian' than a 'master'.
Tending the weave, preventing abuse, repairing damage to the Weave, is being a custodian...
My problem with Mystra, one of them at least, was that she constantly expanded her domain beyond that of just the Weave and Magic. She had too many Chosen, all of whom were very powerful, that constantly were involved (directly or indirectly) in events that had huge impacts on the setting. It's all very... blah. Especially considering I have a strong dislike of epic NPCs in general, and favor seeing NPC's more like they are done in Eberron.
If you want Eberron style NPC's...PLAY EBERRON!! But keep that Eberron trash out of my Forgotten Realms...There is a reason they are different settings...
As for the Chosen, Mystra partitioned some of her power off to her favored followers in order to conserve her power for future emergencies...What the Chosen did in the world was their business...
The first appearance of the shadow weave was The Shadow Stone, by Rich Baker (IIRC) and it was from Imaskari writings that the shadow mage learned of the power, and strongly hinted that they got it from the dark forces they turned to to avoid worshiping the gods. It is in Return of the Archwizards that Shar is given control of the shadow weave.
-If I'm not mistaken, this novel wasn't actually even intended to be a Forgotten Realms novel, until the "last minute". The plot and characters were kept in tact, but Forgotten Realms details were injected in. This also, apparently, accounts for the bad editing the novel had, apparently. I've never read it myself.
If Shar did manage to gain control of it, Im fully resurrecting Karsus so he can cast his avatar spell and use it against Shar....
-I am 100% against this.
And what would happen if she did? Would Ao really bestir himself for the death of an adventurer, a party of adventurers? And what sentence would be handed out? Paltry wouldn't even begin to describe it.
Considering the nature of Ao (which, for the record, I hate), he has the power to see clearly what will happen in the future. Let me rephrase that. Ao has infinite power. He can do anything he wants. Therefore, he would clearly see Shar violating her tenants and do something as simple as prevent her from doing it. She tries to cut you off - and it doesn't work. She curses Ao and his existence as she is harshly scolded by him and you're never the wiser.
What is to stop her feeding into the minds of her minions your use of the weave? Those creeping up would know what magical defenses you had, of every item that was either linked to the weave or disturbed it, of the nature of your every spell the moment you started the gestures to begin it.
That is just a single example of how, even without imperiling her "instructions", she could put a magic user set against her to great difficulty. Ask yourself, would it really be against Shar's character and motivations to do this?
Well, being the goddess of secrets for one. She's not the type of gal who just goes around sharing information, even with her faithful. She might inform them of a person they need to take out through a dream vision or something, but that's more-or-less the extent of it.
Keeping in mind that she is a divine being who thinks in the long term, not the short term, even if you manage to foul her plan (or more likely - the plan of her clergy), she is simply going to outlive you. She has all of eternity to recover from whatever loss you place upon her, and as the Lady of Loss, she's no stranger to it.
Now, that might happen if you actually had the power to -really- harm her directly - such as... causing her destruction. However, if you ever get that much power there is likely going to be some way to defend against that, such as being magically shielded from such a thing by Selune.
The thought occurs that given your general dislike of Epic NPCs whether such a line could ever have been done in a way that you don't take exception to?
Yes. They could go among the planes and work their meddling there, they could die, or some other event that takes them out of the picture completely or diminishes them in power significantly. To use an example the Simbul should not be able to, single handedly, hold off the entire invading force of the Red Wizard's of Thay. Yet she is clearly portrayed as being capable of doing such - even to the point where she could -potentially- wipe out the entire nation with an ultra epic spell.
Really? Why would Selune rise in power? Shar would be given a new portfolio and greater power because of it, but what would Selune gain? To my own, very limited knowledge, since the ToT the basis of a deity's power is their worshippers. Has this been changed again in 4E? Nothing I have read has suggested that any such balancing would take place... even to the lesser extent that you suggest. Could you provide your source?
What would Selune gain? How about a bulk of the Church of Mystra and millions of people who would rightly fear the rise of the power of Shar? Also, there is a heresy in existence that claims Shar and Selune are not two different deities, but in reality, two faces of the same deity. This can be declared as true, and Selune and Shar can be two separate faces of the same ultra deity divided against itself. One face in favor of life and creation and the other face in favor of death and annihilation. Thus, although one half of Shar-Selune would have control over the Weave, the other half could, to some degree, also strongly influence it.
Though, ultimately, I would throw out several ideas on how to deal with it. Not giving any definitive answer, allowing the DM to pick and choose which is the most fitting for his world.
Also, I should point out that a deity also gains power based upon their portfolios. A clear example of this is Mystra. She has few followers, but because magic is so prevalent she is constantly being empowered by the nature of the Weave itself. That is the reason given she had to have so many chosen in the first place to "dump" her excess power so that she could not grow to a point where she would be able to challenge Ao.
Would I? What if I wanted to worship someone else... or in fact any or every deity who isn't Selune. This is not a bideific setting. This isn't Selune vs Shar.
Sure, there is nothing stopping you from worshiping someone else. However, a central part of the setting -is- the conflict between Selune and Shar. Because of Mystra, this conflict got downplayed in favor of a Shar vs Mystra conflict. There are an endless number of deities, even other evil deities, who stand opposed to Shar and her plans, and regardless of whom you worship, if you stood opposed to Shar, then you would almost certainly find an ally in Selune and her Church.
All the above being said, you seem to be under the impression that because Shar would manipulate the mandate placed upon her, she should not be allowed to control the Weave. Yet, how often did Mystra bend or manipulate the mandate placed upon her? Just because she was good aligned, did not mean she did not have an agenda that stood outside of her duties as the Lady of Magic. In fact, it was precisely because she was good aligned that she had an agenda. She often found herself in conflict with the mandate placed upon her – how could she not? She was entitled to spread magic to everyone being non-biased. It is difficult to do that when you are constantly aware of all the evils the Weave is being used for – murder, ****, torture, those would only scratch the surface. Mystra had to allow that. Do you think she stood idle? No, she constantly had her Church (and her endless number of Chosen) finding such wizards and putting an end to them.
The reverse would be true if Shar was the Mistress of the Weave. The difference being, she would have virtually every deity in the entire Realms standing opposed to her. Not to mention Selune, who would actively work to thwart the plans of her evil twin.
Would the world be much darker than 3E? Yes. Of course, I have nothing wrong with points of light and find it preferable, and it would have been better than blowing everything up.
Considering the nature of Ao (which, for the record, I hate)... etc
Then I misunderstood the degree to which Ao watches every action by every deity and could therefore prevent any action against mandate or his greater design. Although why he played out the theft of the Tablets of Fate when he could have saved far more lives than your single paltry party eludes me.
Keeping in mind that she is a divine being who thinks in the long term, not the short term, even if you manage to foul her plan (or more likely - the plan of her clergy), she is simply going to outlive you. She has all of eternity to recover from whatever loss you place upon her, and as the Lady of Loss, she's no stranger to it.
Well in which case, if you and your companions are so below her interest. Why maintain and dispatch agents at all? She would do better to sit back and wait for entropy to swallow us all, wouldn't she?
Now, that might happen if you actually had the power to -really- harm her directly - such as... causing her destruction. However, if you ever get that much power there is likely going to be some way to defend against that, such as being magically shielded from such a thing by Selune.
This would be the weaker goddess who does not have direct access to either the weave you are using or the shadow weave that your opponents are likely to be?
Yes. They could go among the planes and work their meddling there, they could die, or some other event that takes them out of the picture completely or diminishes them in power significantly.
Setting aside the fact that I have already stated I wouldn't mind a decrease in their power I do notice that you seem to be suggesting that NPCs may be epic... as long as they are epic nowhere near you. I had thought that the setting had ably demonstrated that while most of these characters may be capable of such things, none of them actually did them. I mean in your example, if the Simbul could really eliminate Thay that easily, why didn't she? Not the most stable at the best of times, how many times in her (very) long life would Alassra have to be tempted before she gave in and wiped them from the face of Faerun?
What would Selune gain? How about a bulk of the Church of Mystra and millions of people who would rightly fear the rise of the power of Shar?
Who knows? Maybe Selune would gain many of the mystrans. Maybe they would defect to other churches. Maybe they died. What certainties are there when this is conjecture. But I will concede the point. I do not know as much about the Selune-Shar war or their heresies as you and stand corrected.
Also, I should point out that a deity also gains power based upon their portfolios. A clear example of this is Mystra. She has few followers, but because magic is so prevalent she is constantly being empowered by the nature of the Weave itself. That is the reason given she had to have so many chosen in the first place to "dump" her excess power so that she could not grow to a point where she would be able to challenge Ao.
...and yet you do not consider that Shar would become an overwhelming presence should she be granted both weaves... including the one that forced Mystra to create the Chosen that you hate so to stave off the likelihood of becoming a challenger to Ao... who you hate so.
Sure, there is nothing stopping you from worshiping someone else. However, a central part of the setting -is- the conflict between Selune and Shar.
Well I stand corrected. In not one of the novels I have read to date was this conflict given the importance it seems to have been due.
All the above being said, you seem to be under the impression that because Shar would manipulate the mandate placed upon her, she should not be allowed to control the Weave. Yet, how often did Mystra bend or manipulate the mandate placed upon her?..etc
Wait a minute. So you are saying that because Mystra had difficulty in maintaining her acceptance of the mandate that Shar, who you have already said would not manipulate the mandate and would be prevented from breaking the mandate, should be given the chance to do so because Mystra may have done through agents (including the, yet again, "countless" Chosen
) in the past?The reverse would be true if Shar was the Mistress of the Weave. The difference being, she would have virtually every deity in the entire Realms standing opposed to her. Not to mention Selune, who would actively work to thwart the plans of her evil twin.
A goddess who would control a power source you have cited as being too dangerous to stability for Mystra to hold on to? A goddess that you have already specified is part of the core conflict of the setting and would overshadow her opponent? A goddess thatyou have said plays the long game? As someone who seeks the death and annihilation that inevitably comes with time, all Shar would have to do is hold the others to a stalemate (not unlikely) and she would manage a no-score win. In which case, why would she care who is arrayed against her?
Mystra was pilloried for her actions and attitudes. She didn't have the gods against her, she had something far more dangerous. The perceived ire of the gaming community. She was slaughtered for her works. Are you ready to accept the same for Shar?
Would the world be much darker than 3E? Yes. Of course, I have nothing wrong with points of light and find it preferable, and it would have been better than blowing everything up.
Awarding the weave to an already overpowering Shar who looks always towards the annihilation of the world, is blowing it up! The explosion just takes a little bit longer. But what does that matter to an immortal?
Then I misunderstood the degree to which Ao watches every action by every deity and could therefore prevent any action against mandate or his greater design. Although why he played out the theft of the Tablets of Fate when he could have saved far more lives than your single paltry party eludes me.
If I am not mistaken, Ao was fully aware of the plot to take the Tablets of Fate and allowed it to happen. This was revealed at the end of the books, and it was also revealed that the Tablets were utterly worthless. It was supposed to be a "lesson" to the gods.
Ao is supposed to be all powerful and all knowing. Nothing, not even insignificant things, happen without his direct knowledge and allowance. Although Ao does not normally concern himself with mortal affairs, he's there specifically as a check upon godly power. He concerns himself with ensuring certain cosmic laws are met, that deities act in accordance to their portfolios and that they do not upset the balance of power in the multiverse.
Thus, if Shar wanted to cut you off from the Weave and did so - he would have allowed it to happen. He may then, as a consequence, take the Weave from Shar as punishment. Shar may hate Ao, and plot against him, but Ao is aware of those plots and likely aware of everything that goes through Shar's mind.
All of the above reasons, along with others, are why I hate Ao. In the end Ao exists as a way for DM's to keep the world from imploding.
This also means that Ao foresaw the death of Mystra and allowed it to happen, likely because she herself was upsetting the balance of power. I would not be surprised if Ao in some way saw it as a fitting punishment. It also means he allowed the Spellplague to happen.
You are mistaken to think Ao cares about mortals. He doesn't appear to, really, outside of how it affects the gods. He is neither good nor evil.
Well in which case, if you and your companions are so below her interest. Why maintain and dispatch agents at all? She would do better to sit back and wait for entropy to swallow us all, wouldn't she?
Because her agents are mortal and do not live forever, and just because she is immortal and has literally, forever, to rebuild whatever she loses, does not mean she wants to lose in the first place. Shar is not a very optimistic type of gal, though. This is evidenced in her dogma where she tells her followers never to turn to promises of success. Shar likely anticipates failure right from the outset, expecting to lose, expecting to endure more loss, and prepares for it with an endless number of counter measures and back up plans.
So defeating a plan hatched by the Church of Shar might turn back the tide of darkness for the next decade, but it will inevitably come again. And again. And again. But what is a decade to an immortal being? A decade is a long time for a mortal, though, especially a human.
For a DM it allows the players to have a victory, but always ensures that there are more plans and plots in the wings. A powerful enemy that can be soundly defeated but always arise anew in time.
This would be the weaker goddess who does not have direct access to either the weave you are using or the shadow weave that your opponents are likely to be?
Just because she happens to be a weaker goddess now does not mean she would be a weaker goddess in the future. Selune's power, as it is clearly stated, waxes and wanes like the phases of the moon. If Shar were to obtain a major victory, then it is certain that Selune would rise in power as many turn to her to protect them.
However, you are translating power incorrectly. Selune may lack the type of direct destructive power Shar has – the ability to destroy many deities on a whim – but she makes up for it in other ways. She makes allies, and like Shar she thinks in the long term. No other deity knows Shar better than Selune, and this gives Selune an edge where other deities would not have it. She is also unlikely to engage Shar directly in battle, as such a thing would be foolish, but would be more likely to exploit weaknesses in Shar that only she knows about.
Setting aside the fact that I have already stated I wouldn't mind a decrease in their power I do notice that you seem to be suggesting that NPCs may be epic... as long as they are epic nowhere near you.
I did not state nor imply that anywhere in my post. I dislike epic NPCs because I dislike the unbalancing nature they create in the setting. I also have a dislike of ultra-high level magic. It is not just the Chosen, but there are many NPCs who are around who have far too much power needlessly.
These powerful NPCs, in order to craft stories around them, therefore have huge epic adventures that end up in novels, that ultimately end up as either full blown RSE's or mini-RSE's. It is utterly ridiculous and destroys the integrity of the Realms. This is often what people hear about, roll their eyes, and go, “Oh they blew up the Realms... again?” If you talk to people who are not intimately familiar with the setting, that is often all they know about it, and do not play in it for that reason.
I had thought that the setting had ably demonstrated that while most of these characters may be capable of such things, none of them actually did them. I mean in your example, if the Simbul could really eliminate Thay that easily, why didn't she? Not the most stable at the best of times, how many times in her (very) long life would Alassra have to be tempted before she gave in and wiped them from the face of Faerun?
The only reason the Simbul did not blow up Thay, and she was plotting to do just that, was because Mystra herself stepped in and advised her against it. She even went as far as to have Elminster working to ensure that it did not happen. The Simbul obeyed Mystra out of respect, but if Mystra had not stepped in, she would have gone through with it.
It is not the fact that she did not do it that was the problem, though, it was the fact that it was portrayed that she -could- do it if she wanted too.
...and yet you do not consider that Shar would become an overwhelming presence should she be granted both weaves... including the one that forced Mystra to create the Chosen that you hate so to stave off the likelihood of becoming a challenger to Ao... who you hate so.
Because, as I pointed out in a previous post, Shar is the goddess of secrets. This is the reason the Shadow Weave never caught on with spell casters outside of those loyal to her. Her very nature, in upholding her portfolio of secrets, would force her to be self-limiting in that respect. This is counter to Mystra, who encouraged magic to be constantly spread and new magic to be created. This is also why she stepped in to prevent the Simbul from destroying Thay. The Thayans, with their enclaves, were major exporters of magic. It was her own power that Mystra was thinking about when she stepped in to prevent the Simbul from acting.
Shar, by contrast, would jealously guard her knowledge. In addition to being the goddess of secrets she is also the deity of forgetfulness and loss. Thus, she would likely work hard to ensure that knowledge, once learned became lost and then forgotten. Only she would remember this knowledge, which she would keep secret.
Also, keep in mind, that even good aligned people pray to evil deities in the Realms. So a good aligned Wizard might toss a prayer to Shar, even if Mystra is the deity of the Weave, in hope of recovering lost or forgotten knowledge in the same way a prayer is tossed out to Beshaba when one wants to avoid an accident.
Well I stand corrected. In not one of the novels I have read to date was this conflict given the importance it seems to have been due.
Yes, that is exactly my point. It is a central theme of the setting, in fact, it is the very focal point of the creation myth of Toril itself. This conflict got downplayed because of the Mystra vs Shar conflict, and once Mystra was removed from the picture the main conflict between Shar and Selune could then be focused upon.
Wait a minute. So you are saying that because Mystra had difficulty in maintaining her acceptance of the mandate that Shar, who you have already said would not manipulate the mandate and would be prevented from breaking the mandate, should be given the chance to do so because Mystra may have done through agents (including the, yet again, "countless" Chosen ) in the past?
That is not what I said. I simply pointed out that Mystra was not above manipulating the mandate placed upon her, and thus it should not be assumed that Shar would be any worse in that regard. Of course, you can take what you will from that: we all know how it ended up for Mystra, and Shar may not want to travel down that same path.
However, you seem to be going on the assumption that Shar will somehow, suddenly, become all powerful, and then immediately cut hordes of wizards off from the Weave. Everyone who opposes her would be crushed. That is simply not the case. Anything Shar does would have to be done subtly and through her Church – which are her proper agents. I will point out that the Church of Mystra often did not receive as much attention as it should have – they are the proper agents of Mystra, and yet it was always her Chosen out doing their jobs.
A goddess who would control a power source you have cited as being too dangerous to stability for Mystra to hold on to? A goddess that you have already specified is part of the core conflict of the setting and would overshadow her opponent? A goddess thatyou have said plays the long game? As someone who seeks the death and annihilation that inevitably comes with time, all Shar would have to do is hold the others to a stalemate (not unlikely) and she would manage a no-score win. In which case, why would she care who is arrayed against her?
You are absolutely correct and that is more or less her goal. All she has to do is run out the clock. However, in the end, it is all about the balance isn't it? If you look at things from the bigger picture, from Ao's prospective: Life is apart of death. Creation is part of destruction. Eventually, everything WILL come to an end.
In a very real sense, Shar's ultimate victory is inevitable. You may be able to defeat Shar, even destroy her, but eventually the end will come, even if not by her hand or if she is there to see it happen. Just like every mortal is doomed to eventually die, so too is the world and everything else in it.
When you battle against Shar, it is to prevent her from getting a step closer to her ultimate goal. It delays the goal, but it cannot stop it – even destroying her will not stop it, as Ao would never allow it. Another would arise to take her place to maintain the balance.
That may seem depressing, but really is it any more depressing than knowing that some day you will eventually die? That some day the real world universe will suffer heat death – as every star burns up its fuel? That is more or less what I think Shar is supposed to represent in the setting – the ultimate end.
Mystra was pilloried for her actions and attitudes. She didn't have the gods against her, she had something far more dangerous. The perceived ire of the gaming community. She was slaughtered for her works. Are you ready to accept the same for Shar?
Actually, Mystra was slaughtered because the new magic system of 4E was completely non-compatible with the old magic system and they needed a major RSE to shake things up. Thus, they killed her. Do not be surprised when she is resurrected in a few months time after the release of 4th Edition. It will likely be done through LFR.
If I am not mistaken, Ao was fully aware of the plot to take the Tablets of Fate and allowed it to happen. This was revealed at the end of the books, and it was also revealed that the Tablets were utterly worthless. It was supposed to be a "lesson" to the gods.
-Right. The Tablets of Fate were not empowered, or anything, but served as "bait". Ao wanted to see if the deities had..."forgotten" their actual functions and duties to the degree that they'd try to steal the Tablets of Fate.
Actually, Mystra was slaughtered because the new magic system of 4E was completely non-compatible with the old magic system and they needed a major RSE to shake things up. Thus, they killed her. Do not be surprised when she is resurrected in a few months time after the release of 4th Edition. It will likely be done through LFR.
-Because it was believed by the designers that the new magic system was completely non-compatible. Being as that plenty of us here have offered our own theories on how it would work, their belief certainly isn't 100% correct.
-Personally, I don't believe that Mystra will ever be brought back. I believe that the plothook will be dangled in novels/adventures/whatever else, but I don't think that they will actually go through with it. Mystra stood for everything, in general, that non-fans didn't like. Bring her back, and the non-fans who became fans might become non-fans again.
Because it was believed by the designers that the new magic system was completely non-compatible. Being as that plenty of us here have offered our own theories on how it would work, their belief certainly isn't 100% correct.
Sure, but whether or not it is true is irrelevant. That is why they killed her, not as Iluvrien claimed... which was as follows...
Mystra was pilloried for her actions and attitudes. She didn't have the gods against her, she had something far more dangerous. The perceived ire of the gaming community. She was slaughtered for her works.
Which isn't true. Despite the sentiment existing that was not the underlying reason behind her being killed off, it was - as I stated - the designers removing her for the 4E Magic System to be put in place.
Personally, I don't believe that Mystra will ever be brought back. I believe that the plothook will be dangled in novels/adventures/whatever else, but I don't think that they will actually go through with it.
One can hope...
Mystra stood for everything, in general, that non-fans didn't like. Bring her back, and the non-fans who became fans might become non-fans again.
That's not entirely true. I'm a Realms fan, and I've never really liked Mystra at all - for the reasons I've stated in this thread and many others. You and I both came to an agreement in the past, where we both agreed that Mystra was expanding way beyond her domain and into others. That she was given FAR more importance in the setting than she truly had and was the 'it girl' for the Realms for far too long, to the detriment of other deities. Selune in particular got pushed far to the back of the bus when it came to the Mystra vs Shar conflict.
No, really.
My lack of lore knowledge led me to erroneous conclusions about Ao, and having not read enough about Shar I am unable to describe her motivations and courses of actions either.
I still feel that Mystra is... sorry, was no worse a custodian than Shar would be, but since I haven't the setting knowledge to render it in any terms that would affect your position I cannot continue the discussion. Who knows, as I read more then maybe I will change my own mind, and my view will shift to match yours and Lord Karsus'.
Sure, but whether or not it is true is irrelevant. That is why they killed her, not as Iluvrien claimed... which was as follows...
Which isn't true. Despite the sentiment existing that was not the underlying reason behind her being killed off, it was - as I stated - the designers removing her for the 4E Magic System to be put in place.
Yes. I specified that she was killed for the public opinion of her. I didn't say that was the primary reason for her removal. I suggested it may have been the primary reason for her death. These are two entirely different statements and as such I will happily modify my previously nebulous statement.
Considering the number of other plots that could have been substituted for Mystra's murder that would allow for the same final outcome (the replacement of 3E magic with 4E magic) I find their choice... odd.
The need for a large scale event was supplied by the nature of the changes. It is my own opinion that the "popular" antipathy for her (and possibly her Chosen) assisted with the decision on deicide. A rather impressive coincidence otherwise, no? Especially since killing the current Mystra is far from a fresh storyline.
But that is of course informed by my own feelings about the situation. I liked Mystra and her Chosen as characters and for me their loss is little less than a tragedy. In such a case how could I claim objectivity? :D
-Being that, according to the last retcon, the Shadow Weave actual is/was a part of the Weave that Mystra could not control and had no access to, Shar could have theoretically understood how the Weave worked as well.
so... technically if the shadow weave is part of the weave that mytra couldn't control, and the weave was destroyed, wouldn't the shadow weave (being part of the weave) have been destroyed as well?
That's not entirely true. I'm a Realms fan, and I've never really liked Mystra at all - for the reasons I've stated in this thread and many others. You and I both came to an agreement in the past, where we both agreed that Mystra was expanding way beyond her domain and into others. That she was given FAR more importance in the setting than she truly had and was the 'it girl' for the Realms for far too long, to the detriment of other deities. Selune in particular got pushed far to the back of the bus when it came to the Mystra vs Shar conflict.
-I never liked Mystra much, either. My opinions on her are probably known by most of you.
-What I said concerning Mystra, to reiterate: She served as the "posterchild" for what everyone who didn't like the Forgotten Realms saw in the Forgotten Realms. They didn't like deities who meddled too much? Mystra meddled. A lot. They didn't like overpowered NPCs? Mystra had a lot of Chosen, who are often times inappropriately called the 'Justice League', or whatever. Almost every complaint about the Forgotten Realms that most cite somehow can be related to Mystra. Her return can easily be perceived as a return to these things that those who came to the setting after her death did not like, and thus cause the people WotC has seemingly been shooting for to leave the setting.
so... technically if the shadow weave is part of the weave that mytra couldn't control, and the weave was destroyed, wouldn't the shadow weave (being part of the weave) have been destroyed as well?
-At this point, who knows. Shar could have augmented it somehow, making it more of her own, and less of Mystras. Shar could have completely separated it from the Weave, making it her own, and not Mystras. The lack of information about the Shadow Weave, and the rampant use of the retcon was it's downfall.
so... we can't figure out what the present state of the shadow weave is (gone or still hanging around), but would you all prefer to see it still available (as a power source or what have you) or completely gone?
-Shadow Weave = Shadow Power Source