The Earthmother
Ouroboros the World Serpent
Magnar the Bear
Remnis the Eagle
Quorlinn the Raven
Amarok the Wolf
The Earthmother: Introduced in the Moonshae Trilogy, the Earthmother has long been described as an aspect of nature; a being without form beyond the land itself. Later sourcebooks described the Earthmother as an aspect of the goddess Chauntea, though this contradicts both novel trilogies, which show the Earthmother to be an entity distinct from, and working at odds to Chauntea. 4E is the first edition to codify primal beings and place them on the same scale as divine powers, so a retcon (or in this case a return to her original design) to primal spirit for the Earthmother makes sense to me.
Ouroboros the World Serpent: Introduce to Realmslore in Serpent Kingdoms, the World Serpent was described as an ancient deity of the Sarrukh creator race which later fragmented into separate divine beings to better accommodate to the worship of variant sauroid races. Despite the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide also listing Ouroboros as a god, I believe the World Serpent is better represented as a primal spirit. Since I wrote the history section of the FRCG I have less of an issue retconning my own words (especially since concepts like archfey and primal spirits were not yet conceived of at the time of that tome’s design). Besides the Player’s Handbook 2 also lists the World Serpent as a primal spirit.
Totem Spirits: These next four, Bear, Eagle, Raven, and Wolf were first introduced to Realmslore in Elves of Evermeet. They were worshiped as lesser powers by green elves. Animal spirits are clearly primal powers so this retcon is a no brainer for me. Now the names I have assigned to them are new (sorta). Magnar the Bear is a canon “deity” of the ancient Yuir so it just makes sense to tie the two together. I’m not saying their couldn’t be several primal bear spirits, but for simplicity I want to name just one so Magnar gets the nod. Remnis and Quorlinn are established animal deities from earlier editions of D&D. Myself and others have posited that both would make great powers for the ancient Aearie creator race to worship. Finally, we come to Amarok. I couldn’t find a pre-existing wolf entity in Realmslore so I snatched a name from Inuit mythology. I’m open to better suggestions.
It's been stated (and speculated) that greater powers can (and have been) more then one type.
Example: Winged elves now know that their Deity is also a Primordial. Also, a few people here like the idea that both Shar & Selune are ascended Primordials who became Deities.
So, my question is, why can't the World Serpent be both? Or, more likely, a Primordial who became a Deity and then splintered?
The Earthmother: Introduced in the Moonshae Trilogy, the Earthmother has long been described as an aspect of nature; a being without form beyond the land itself. Later sourcebooks described the Earthmother as an aspect of the goddess Chauntea, though this contradicts both novel trilogies, which show the Earthmother to be an entity distinct from, and working at odds to Chauntea. 4E is the first edition to codify primal beings and place them on the same scale as divine powers, so a retcon (or in this case a return to her original design) to primal spirit for the Earthmother makes sense to me.
Would this also include her children?
Leviathan, Kamerynn and the Pack?
Bel
The specific beast cults he named were:
ASLAN Lord Firemane Lord of Lions
BESPARR --- Lord of Horses
CAMAZOTZ --- Lord of Bats
FILEET --- Lady of the Birds
HAAASHASTAAK--- Master of All Lizardkind
HLYYAAK --- King of Camels
LOLTH --- Demon Queen of Spiders
LURUE Silverymoon Queen of Talking Beasts
MEERCLAR --- Mistress of Catkind
NNUUURRRR’C’C King With Wings Master of the Insect Swarm
NURU-AH --- Master of Cattle
PYARAY Whisperer of Impossible Secrets Lord of the Ocean Abysses, Creatures of the Deep
REPRA --- King of Serpents
ROOFDRAK --- Master of All Dogs
SNEEL The Great Rat Lord of Rats
Most of these were placeholder names, Ed took them mostly from the 1e Deities and Demigods (and C.S.Lewis).
Aslan later became Nobanion.
Lurue, Besparr, Hlyyaak, and the name "Sneel" were created by Ed himself. They don't need new names.
Camazotz was from the Aztec pantheon, and I believe he was re-dubbed "Neifon, Lord of Bats" in Bruce Cordell's novel Plague of Spells.
Meerclar from the Moorcock pantheon I believe was renamed Felidae and was absorbed by Bast.
Repra, I think became Varae and was absorbed into Sseth, but I am not 100% if Repra and Varae are the same.
Haaashastaak may or may not be the same as Laogzed. If not then he needs a new name, as he is from the Moorcock pantheon.
So are Fileet, Pyaray, Nnuuurrrr’c’c, Nuru-Ah, and Roofdrak. They need new names too.
I was thinking that Pyaray may or may not be Panzuriel. Either way, he is certainly a candidate for membership in the pantheon worshipped by the pre-Ramenite Batrachi, back when they lived as octopoids in the oceans.
I don't think Ed intended the list to be exclusive, I imagine there are many more Beast Lords that have not yet been named.
I would easily put Remnis as a Beast Lord too.
By the way, Talisid and his companions might qualify as Beast Lords also, if they are still around in some fashion.
But, as for whether the Beast Lords should be categorized as primal spirits or not, I am not so sure. I was thinking they might be their own thing. Sui generis.
But I am open to being persuaded that they could be better categorized as primal spirits. Maybe Ed Greenwood could shed some light on the matter.
Later sourcebooks described the Earthmother as an aspect of the goddess Chauntea, though this contradicts both novel trilogies, which show the Earthmother to be an entity distinct from, and working at odds to Chauntea.
That would make sense: she could be a primal closely allied to Chauntea, but that doesn't mean they work together all the time.
It occurs to me that there are a number of minor supernatural things wandering around that could be classified as primal spirit servants of the likes of Silvanus and Chauntea, but I'll have to go look them up when I get a chance. I think the relationship between primal spirits and gods is closer in FR than in core.
Gray got them all, what about the Monkey
and the lycanthrope gods as cursed primal spirits?
or even Othea (initially manifested as the spirit of the mountain) and Ulutiu?
Uthgardt totemic spirits, maybe some kind of special relationship with Uthgar?
Emmantiensien, the World Tree, just throwing out some
Ouroboros the World Serpent: Introduce to Realmslore in Serpent Kingdoms, the World Serpent was described as an ancient deity of the Sarrukh creator race which later fragmented into separate divine beings to better accommodate to the worship of variant sauroid races. Despite the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide also listing Ouroboros as a god, I believe the World Serpent is better represented as a primal spirit. Since I wrote the history section of the FRCG I have less of an issue retconning my own words (especially since concepts like archfey and primal spirits were not yet conceived of at the time of that tome’s design). Besides the Player’s Handbook 2 also lists the World Serpent as a primal spirit.
So as what would it's successor powers qualify, then?
It looks good so far, but I have a question.
It's been stated (and speculated) that greater powers can (and have been) more then one type.
Example: Winged elves now know that their Deity is also a Primordial. Also, a few people here like the idea that both Shar & Selune are ascended Primordials who became Deities.
So, my question is, why can't the World Serpent be both? Or, more likely, a Primordial who became a Deity and then splintered?
Ascension from Elemental Chaos primordial to Astral Sea deity isn't the same as the previously used ascension from say mortal to deity. And considering how individually powerful the primordials were supposed to be in the war against the deities, it'd rather call it descended in Shar's & Selune's case.
Ascension from Elemental Chaos primordial to Astral Sea deity isn't the same as the previously used ascension from say mortal to deity. And considering how individually powerful the primordials were supposed to be in the war against the deities, it'd rather call it descended in Shar's & Selune's case.
lol, well I haven't looked at it that way...
Hmm, could be the Shar didn't want to get canned and sent packing when the gods won the war, so she (and her sister in the process) 'switched' sides to stay?
Or it could be more of a lateral transfer. It isn't stated that Primordials are more powerful then Deities, just that they created (and tried to conquer) first. I wonder what Ao has to say about that...
I'd add in the Black Leopard (Bauhei) and Monkey, as well as the animal generals of the east, and Kiga (leopards), Shajar (Hippos), Raggara (crocodiles), the Lost One (Elephants... possibly Genesha), and a Horshoe crab-headed Giant leaving in the Crowded Sea called Kar'r'ga.
I'm thinking both Lurue and Nobabion should be amongst these - it could be why WotC opted to "go a different way" with Nobabion after Brian's article about him being an Archdruid (Exarch).
It isn't stated that Primordials are more powerful then Deities, just that they created (and tried to conquer) first.
Not anymore, yes, but they once were more powerful. Well, it's not explicitly stated but afaik in the Mual-Tar article it was mentioned that it took a couple of deities to put down a single primordial.
I wonder what Ao has to say about that...
And I wonder where an overpower (overdeity :confused
like Ao fits in all this deity vs. primordial thing.that article was pulled....
Its still there, but it looks like it's been editted - I don't see Nobanion mentioned (and a few other things I think were changed).
Not anymore, yes, but they once were more powerful. Well, it's not explicitly stated but afaik in the Mual-Tar article it was mentioned that it took a couple of deities to put down a single primordial.
It says they were as powerful, if not more (back in the day). I imagine that it was when the gods were young and now, if they are out and about, they would be of comparable power to Deities.
And I wonder where an overpower (overdeity :confused
If I had to guess, I'd say 'Overpowers' are beyond mortal comprehension. :P
But really, they (should be) beyond classification aside from; Ao > Chuck Norris.
Not anymore, yes, but they once were more powerful. Well, it's not explicitly stated but afaik in the Mual-Tar article it was mentioned that it took a couple of deities to put down a single primordial.
A common theme was that the gods ganged up on the Primordials, and won. Leaving aside their stats, it's possible that Tempus could take down any one Primordial, but it's not assured. However, as a party of several gods, it's far more likely that they are assured of success without casualties.
But really, they (should be) beyond classification aside from; Ao > Chuck Norris.
Inconceivable!
Besparr - Lord of Horses
Hlyyaak - King of Camels
Repra - King of Serpents
Sneel - Lord of Rats
There were others (including Lurue and Aslan/Nobanion), but a lot were taken directly from the Melnibonean Mythos included in the 1st Ed. DD). Those above are Ed originals.
It says they were as powerful, if not more (back in the day). I imagine that it was when the gods were young and now, if they are out and about, they would be of comparable power to Deities.
Actually, it seems to me that the deities were probably stronger in the past than they are today, since they withdrew to their dominions after they had won the war.
I think Ao himself was either an even more ancient being (a Primodial's Primordial), or an extremely powerful Primordial (A Primordial of Elemental Reality?).
Imo you're giving everything primordial too much attention. Not all what's ancient and mystical has necessarily to be a primordial. Anyway, in the Ecology of the Shar article it was mentioned that in that other reality Tharizdun became something that's even beyond deities (can't remember excalty, but I think it was deities). So, fortunatly, the concept of overdeities isn't gone entirely.
tofl, it just dawned on me! Who is Ao? Will Elminster regain sanity and say what REALLY happened to Mystra? Tune in next time for the next chapter of "The Forgotten and the Realms"
Best. Soap. EVAR!!!
Sweeps week in Abeir-Toril! ;)
She's rooming with Wee Jas now... they have a 'special' relationship.... ;)
you must have Gray Richardson on your ignore list
No... I just didn't bother reading the entire thread, and I happened to be re-reading that old article last night, soooo...
The Totemic Spirits of Plants and Animal Spirits are bountiful.
Some of the ones we missed are the Stag, Boar, Cat, Fox, Bull, Eagle, Owl, Hawk, Horse, Otter, Rat, Salamander, Snake, Squirrel and Tortoise of the animal kingdom. Plant life offers the candidates Holly, Ivy, Willow, Oak, Pine and numerous others.
I think in the long history of Fearun some of those totems have been taken in by dieties of various portfolios overlapping with the properties of each animal totem. The World Spirit of Rats might have served Talona for quite some while now, serving Talona with his sickeningly numerous hordes. Squirrel might serve Silvanus as his eyes and ears (bothered by his error prone memory
).she's with wee jesus now
Nice
