Personally, I never liked the idea of psionics. It feels to me like adding a second kind of magic and calling it psychic power instead.
So, how will it be dealt with?
If it was up to me, psionics would simply be like the sorcerers of 3E. That is, they wield magic just as wizards, just that it's intuitive instead of learned. So, in effect, they are not needed. Just make a sorcerer class instead, and be done with it. If they want to name that class 'psionic', so be it.
What part will psionics play in 4E D&D and 4E FR?
-We'll have to wait and see. There's a bit of lore in the Realms regarding Psionics already, so...
Personally, I never liked the idea of psionics. It feels to me like adding a second kind of magic and calling it psychic power instead.
-Really? I've always liked Psionics.
What part will psionics play in 4E D&D and 4E FR?
Well, since we won't see psionics until 2010 at the earliest and by then WoTC will no longer be putting out FR books it seems that at the most there might be a DDi article or 2
Personally, I never liked the idea of psionics. It feels to me like adding a second kind of magic and calling it psychic power instead.
Thats not really a bad thing IMHO
I don't know.. it feels like complicating things for the sake of doing so.
-I actually like the 3e Psionics system (Power Points) better than the 3e Magic system. In my homebrew version of the Sorcerer, I am replacing the Spells per Day and all of that with the Spell Points system from Unearthed Arcana.
What's the lore of psionic power in FR, then? Isn't it just an inborn mental power, much like that of sorcerers?
-Right. It's a manifestation of one's inner psychic powers. It isn't tied to the Weave, as Psionicists create their own "mini-Weaves" when manifesting their powers. Jhaamdath was a Psiocratic empire, and there's a few other organizations, detailed in PGtF.
-I actually like the 3e Psionics system (Power Points) better than the 3e Magic system. In my homebrew version of the Sorcerer, I am replacing the Spells per Day and all of that with the Spell Points system from Unearthed Arcana.
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That I do like
-I actually like the 3e Psionics system (Power Points) better than the 3e Magic system. In my homebrew version of the Sorcerer, I am replacing the Spells per Day and all of that with the Spell Points system from Unearthed Arcana.
Actually the PSP points have existed since psionics were intro'd in 1st edition as wild talents. In second edition psionics were like proficiencies so could be failed, which I think killed some of the appeal and it didn't take off much. 3rd edition psionics I was disappointed with because the attacks were essentially useless against anything that wasn't a psion.
I am hoping 4th edition psionics are getting a ground up revamp, but in the meantime I am working on a homebrew for psionics in 4th edition.
In my homebrew version of the Sorcerer, I am replacing the Spells per Day and all of that with the Spell Points system from Unearthed Arcana.
This has been my standard homebrew rule ever since I got UA. Much greater enjoyment for everyone at the table. You might find that evokers and combat mages suffer a bit. I believe someone posted a fix for that on the boards back in 06, by multiplying spellpoint totals and such, etc. Can't remember what the multiplier was of the top of my head.
Anyway, on topic. Never been a fan of psionics myself, but have had to put up with it because my players are enamoured with it. That said, I do think that there will be fewer complaints about balance with 4e psionics. In 3.5, psionics used its own completly different system, but now it will be basically just like everything else; using its own pool of powers.
I'm not sure what kind of representation it will have in the Realms4.0, but I suspect that the Spellplague will have made psionics slightly more prolific, since it wouldn't have suffered the same backlash from the end of the weave.
Actually the PSP points have existed since psionics were intro'd in 1st edition as wild talents. In second edition psionics were like proficiencies so could be failed, which I think killed some of the appeal and it didn't take off much. 3rd edition psionics I was disappointed with because the attacks were essentially useless against anything that wasn't a psion.
-Meh, Don't even know what 1e looks like, so...;)
This has been my standard homebrew rule ever since I got UA. Much greater enjoyment for everyone at the table. You might find that evokers and combat mages suffer a bit. I believe someone posted a fix for that on the boards back in 06, by multiplying spellpoint totals and such, etc. Can't remember what the multiplier was of the top of my head.
-At this point, it's in the stage between theoretical development, and being physically written. When/if I test it, I'll be sure to share my results.
-I actually like the 3e Psionics system (Power Points) better than the 3e Magic system. In my homebrew version of the Sorcerer, I am replacing the Spells per Day and all of that with the Spell Points system from Unearthed Arcana.
I see. Well, I don't have anything against the rules system of psionics. It's rather their lore.
-Right. It's a manifestation of one's inner psychic powers. It isn't tied to the Weave, as Psionicists create their own "mini-Weaves" when manifesting their powers. Jhaamdath was a Psiocratic empire, and there's a few other organizations, detailed in PGtF.
Hmm, thanks for explaining. Can anyone train their own psychic ability, or is it restricted to a lucky few, like sorcery?
How will psionics work now that Mystra has died and the Weave is gone? Same as always, since they aren't bound to the Weave as other spellcasters? Nobody knows for sure I guess.
How common is psionicism (sp?) in the Realms?
Hmm, thanks for explaining. Can anyone train their own psychic ability, or is it restricted to a lucky few, like sorcery?
-Like Sorcerers, it's something that magically manifests in individuals (and, in certain races, like Illithid).
How will psionics work now that Mystra has died and the Weave is gone? Same as always, since they aren't bound to the Weave as other spellcasters? Nobody knows for sure I guess.
-Well, until the 4e rules concerning Psionics are released, we won't know. Going by the lore, being as that Psions weren't dependent on the Weave, they'd be unaffected by the collapse of it, and the death of Mystra.
How common is psionicism (sp?) in the Realms?
-Not very common. A few races naturally can use it, but other than that, it's very rare.
Alright. Rarer than sorcerers even? How rare are sorcerers by the way?
Extremely so, now that the class no longer exists.
Extremely so, now that the class no longer exists.
Technically I would say a warlock is a sorcerer now. They don't use grimoires and such to work their magic. Honestly, the sorcerer I never liked since all it was, was a mage without the need of a spellbook.
DnD is magic and divine powers.
In my view... psionic make a game look like Star Wars and the Force.
DnD is magic and divine powers.
-How are magic and divine powers any different than Psionics? Especially when, as you said, "It feels to me like adding a second kind of magic".
In my view... psionic make a game look like Star Wars and the Force.
DnD is magic and divine powers.
Psionics are the powers of the mind; where a mage focusses on changing the world around them, the psionicist uses the power from within.
Technically I would say a warlock is a sorcerer now. They don't use grimoires and such to work their magic. Honestly, the sorcerer I never liked since all it was, was a mage without the need of a spellbook.
"Technically" isn't really the right word to use here friend. I get your point, but its not a technicality as much as a personal interpretation. One which I would disagree with. The only thing the warlock and sorceror have in common is the role of 'alternate wizard'. In terms of fluff and flavour, they are miles apart. If one were to replace all the sorcerers in the setting with warlocks, you would have something comepletly different.
-How are magic and divine powers any different than Psionics? Especially when, as you said, "It feels to me like adding a second kind of magic".
To be fair, his point's not hard to see. Things like soulknives, in particular, just don't fit well in high fantasy. Especially if they have an orc double-axe mindblade. Certain things are great (illithid, aboleths, gith etc.), but then there's so much more that makes one (or at least myself) cringe. And, to be frank, the longer psionics was developed, the less it felt like D&D and the more it felt like something out of X-men. There's nothing wrong with X-men, but not everyone wants their X-men touching their D&D.
I think psionics strayed to far from its niche. Instead of looking at psionics for what it was, the folks who designed it seemed to have intended it to compete with magic, both arcane and devine, as a substitute. Hell towards the end of 3.5, it seemed as if the notion of a "psionic party" was specifically geared to compete with regular parties, with the over complicated psionics ruleset competing with the regular ruleset. There were psionic clerics, psionic rogues etc. Added to that, so many psionic monsters were the product of taking a regular monster and slapping a psionics sticker on it, just for the sake of it e.g. crystal dragons. All in all, I think 3.x psionics is a large mess that had to refined.
I have hopes that psionics will be less offensive to my sensibilites under the new edition. I expect it will work in a more streamlined way, and no longer require its own special ruleset (though that might ruin it for about 50% of psionics fans).
-How are magic and divine powers any different than Psionics? Especially when, as you said, "It feels to me like adding a second kind of magic".
It was me who said that. Think you mixed us up.
What I think he meant, though, is that he thinks spells and prayers are more at home in a fantasy setting, rather than using one's will to make things happen.
Whether that's true or not, I can't say. It was the feeling I had too, but when you brought up illithids I was reminded that I like them.
I guess I'm ok with psionicism.. as long as it's kept very rare. More as an anomaly than anything else.
To be fair, his point's not hard to see. Things like soulknives, in particular, just don't fit well in high fantasy.
-Which brings up the entire debate of "What is fantasy? 'High' Fantasy?". Mystical powers have always been part and parcel of the genre, so I don't see the problem. Call them spells, psionics, "ki", whatever you want.
It was me who said that. Think you mixed us up.
-You're right, you're right. Sorry. :embarrass
Good point, Lord Karsus. That supernatural abilites are all a part of fantasy. I think this all comes down to taste. What one feels good with in their own FR.
I like psionic power as something alien, something found amongst strange races of the Underdark and other planes. If it has to exist among 'player races' I prefer it too be extremely rare and exceptional.
I don't like psionicism as an integrated part of society, as wizardry is to some degree. I guess the reason is that I simply don't see a place for them in FR.
In my view... psionic make a game look like Star Wars and the Force.
DnD is magic and divine powers.
Strictly speaking, the force is a form of magic, not psionics. A jedi draws on a mystic force that infuses the universe, and exists in all living things, not their own power. Star Wars is technically a fantasy movie, not strictly sci-fi. In traditional sci-fi characters use science to solve problems, building gadgets and such.
Psionics are core, and will be core in the realms (finally). Hopefully this time they will keep it simple though, and not try to develop a seperate type for each ability score. Soul blades would be nice, and a single psionic class that could be customized with powers, much like the warlock is.
I agree that it should be kept to a single class.
-Yeah, I agree. I was fine with the original 3e Psionic Handbook having Psions and Psychic Warriors, but never liked the other stuff. And then, the addition of more classes in the Expanded Psionic Handbook, nope.
-Yeah, I agree. I was fine with the original 3e Psionic Handbook having Psions and Psychic Warriors, but never liked the other stuff. And then, the addition of more classes in the Expanded Psionic Handbook, nope.
Not to mention Complete Psionic
I like the Wilder though...Not to mention Complete Psionic
-Whoops. I think I meant Complete Psionic. That's the one had the 'Lurk', for instance?
I agree that it should be kept to a single class.
Well, Psi is going to be a power source, so expect at least 2 classes. I'm guessing 4, as it appears that they want all sources to have at least 4--PHB1 has 4 Martial, 2 Arcane, and 2 Divine characters, PHB2 is Arcane, Divine, and Primal, so probably 2 Arcane, 2 Divine, and 4 Primal to make 4 for everyone.
-Whoops. I think I meant Complete Psionic. That's the one had the 'Lurk', for instance?
Yep, that's the one. Don't feel bad--I don't think there's a single psionics fan on the boards who did like it.
-Whoops. I think I meant Complete Psionic. That's the one had the 'Lurk', for instance?
Yeah that one
the Lurk isn't that bad but the rest (including psionic blade) can rot for all I care CP is a whole freaking book dedicated to fix a crappy class (psionic blade)They should have Third eyes, psionatrix, and dorjes as their implements. And what I meant by classes were the divisions of psi powers. A lot of powers were taken from their correct discipline (mostly psychokinesis) in order to create the Nomad and Metacreation paths. I could see the Telepath or Telekinetic as a controller, and a Psychometabolism master as a striker or gaurdian, but most of the Clairscentient powers should be rituals or utility powers, as should the Psychoportation powers.
Another interesting thought... Since psi powers are called powers, I wonder if they will change what they are called collectively (like all arcane powers are spells).
As far as complete psionic, I agree with the above, not a good book unless you really liked playing a soulblade or really wanted a psi/cleric.
And what I meant by classes were the divisions of psi powers. A lot of powers were taken from their correct discipline (mostly psychokinesis) in order to create the Nomad and Metacreation paths. I could see the Telepath or Telekinetic as a controller, and a Psychometabolism master as a striker or gaurdian, but most of the Clairscentient powers should be rituals or utility powers, as should the Psychoportation powers.
I'd say you could have a Leader (Defender) class--maybe the psion--who has a Nomad build for tactical movement, an Egoist build for buffing, and a Telepath build for the charm/dominate stuff they've been saving for Psi. Then you'd have a Controller (Striker) class--maybe the wilder--who has a Kineticist build for basic blasting, a Shaper build for all the wall of X and other zone-like effects, and a Seer build for Starlock-ish fate manipulation.
A lot of 3e powers can be relegated to rituals, but that doesn't mean the themes of the disciplines wouldn't make viable combat builds.
Another interesting thought... Since psi powers are called powers, I wonder if they will change what they are called collectively (like all arcane powers are spells).
Well, in 1e they were disciplines and sciences, and I think 2e had talents or modes, but it's been a while since I've played that. They'll definitely change them from powers, but what they change the name to is up for debate.
As far as complete psionic, I agree with the above, not a good book unless you really liked playing a soulblade or really wanted a psi/cleric.
Yeah.
WotC basically tried to give psionics fans a psionic version of everything so you could play an all-psionics campaign with the same roles as regular classes...but Psionic X is exactly what psionics fans don't want.
And not even that They suck as a replacement. the other day I was gonna build a lurker to replace a rogue and it turns out that the lurker doesn't have Trapfinding...
-It's probably better off to multiclass, huh?
-It's probably better off to multiclass, huh?
Is better of not using them at all!!!!
Is better of not using them at all!!!!
-That's what I meant. It's better off to multiclass as a Psion/Rogue than it is to be a Lurk.
-Though, multiclassing as a Lurk and a Rogue might have some good bonuses. If both have Sneak Attack +1d6 at 1st level, that means at 2nd level, you can have a Sneak Attack of +2d6.
-That's what I meant. It's better off to multiclass as a Psion/Rogue than it is to be a Lurk.
-Though, multiclassing as a Lurk and a Rogue might have some good bonuses. If both have Sneak Attack +1d6 at 1st level, that means at 2nd level, you can have a Sneak Attack of +2d6.
Not even that http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b and this is for free!!!