When did Quenthel's ascension to Matron Mother of the Baenre happen? Am I completely forgetting something from WotSQ? Or a later novel? Is this new to 4E?
It was mentioned. Of course, don't really remember where, 'cause I don't care much. Triel got snuff. It's a 4e thing.
Silly goose, I know it's mentioned in 4E FRCG, but is this totally new to 4E? Or did it happen before 4E?
I would assume it happened right after the events of WotSQ, when she returned to Menzoberranzan.
On page 228 in the CG it says, that it took her (Quentel) only a decade to become Matron Mother. A decade after the events of WotSQ, of course. Nonetheless, it's a 4e thing.
On page 228 in the CG it says, that it took her (Quentel) only a decade to become Matron Mother. A decade after the events of WotSQ, of course. Nonetheless, it's a 4e thing.
Yeah and very unnecessary, IMHO. A few neat matron mother constellations have been brought up in recent years, e.g. Shadowdale, but with 4E we have the old system back in place, drow climbing above one another, hands red with bood ...
Yeah and very unnecessary, IMHO. A few neat matron mother constellations have been brought up in recent years, e.g. Shadowdale, but with 4E we have the old system back in place, drow climbing above one another, hands red with bood ...
I found it awkward too, considering how stupid Quenthel is compared to Triel.
I found it awkward too, considering how stupid Quenthel is compared to Triel.
Well, Quenthel got it from all four corners in the WotSQ series, methinks she was not that "daft" beforehand - unless, e.g. plot-driven like in Siege of Darkness.
Well, Quenthel got it from all four corners in the WotSQ series, methinks she was not that "daft" beforehand - unless, e.g. plot-driven like in Siege of Darkness.
If either Quenthel or Triel had to go, it's probably better to keep Quenthel. The image I had of Triel wasn't ever really all that ruthless. They always refer to her as petite and having deviant "tastes" (borne out with Jeggred), but not terribly ruthless or necessarily smart. Quenthel seems both ruthless and pragmatic, and she certainly hungers for power - where Triel seemed to have it thrust upon her without desiring it.
Daughter of the Drow depicts her as being too diminutive to even sit properly on her throne and in subsequent books she was more paranoid than usual.
Quenthel was hyped as blessed by Lolth since way back in the Menzoberranzan boxed set. Killed in Siege of Darkness but brought back to life in Tangled Webs.
So I'm not entirely surprised by her ascension. I'm more disappointed in that it seems (according to the FRCS) the rules of House heirarchy have been changed: You don't have to obliterate a higher House to advance.
If either Quenthel or Triel had to go, it's probably better to keep Quenthel. The image I had of Triel wasn't ever really all that ruthless. They always refer to her as petite and having deviant "tastes" (borne out with Jeggred), but not terribly ruthless or necessarily smart. Quenthel seems both ruthless and pragmatic, and she certainly hungers for power - where Triel seemed to have it thrust upon her without desiring it.
It also depends on the author.
RAS's Triel was more than capable of being First Matron. Subsequent authors have made her woefully inadequate.
It also depends on the author.
RAS's Triel was more than capable of being First Matron. Subsequent authors have made her woefully inadequate.
Definitely agree there's a difference there, but it may not have been the authors so much as the guiding editing / design team which established requirements for certain characters and plot lines for authors to follow.
Is this new to 4E?
Then why ask?
A spankin' you get. ;)
I know Quenthel was never put in the best postions during WotSQ, but she always acted like the origonal drow, killing everything in for stupid reasons, or was so parinoid that she jumped at her own snake whip and I couldn't stand it. I know the circumstances weren't the best but they are the circumstances that define the person. Triel was much more buisness like and to me seemed to understand polotics better than most drow, which in her postion could have been a weakness, a weakness that probrably let Gromph controll her better than he should have been able to but it also made sure that she kept Menzo together during The Silence. Quenthel either would have beat everybody sensless until she herself caused a rebellion or killed herself in hopes that her soul would break through to lolth. The quentessintal chaotic stupid.
Treil was much better for Gromph. And I had hoped she was there for that reason. Whether before or after WothSQ, that got lost and much repeatedly--sux.
Now with Lloth being the one and only, Gromph can truly do nothing.
Then why ask?
A spankin' you get. ;)
A spanking! A spanking! :D
Treil was much better for Gromph. ...
But probably not as good for conflict and drama in future drow stories. ;)
A spanking! A spanking! :D
Yup. My life.
Room full of chicks wanting...and I get removed over some technicality.
But probably not as good for conflict and drama in future drow stories. ;)
Are you joking? What better drama than Gromph and the Matron?
Are you joking? What better drama than Gromph and the Matron?
Better drama with Gromph vs. Quenthel (at each others' throats) than Gromph vs. Triel. :P
Better drama with Gromph vs. Quenthel (at each others' throats) than Gromph vs. Triel. :P
Yes.
With Quenthel, we know Gromph will never succeed.
With Treil? Oh, yeah--then there is some drama.
Yes.
With Quenthel, we know Gromph will never succeed.
With Treil? Oh, yeah--then there is some drama.
No no... see, Quenthel isn't as "smart". So Gromph should be able to take her out if he really wanted to. He just needs the right opportunity.
Although, technically, I suppose Quenthel did put the smackdown on Triel, so Triel couldn't have been all that smart. ;)
Better drama with Gromph vs. Quenthel (at each others' throats) than Gromph vs. Triel. :P
It was like that before. It's just Quenthel and Gromph competed for control over the mother piece: Triel. Now it's an open conflict instead of the more fabled overt ones the drow are so famous or infamous for. And seeing as in the open conflict Quenthel is back by the ranking relgion and therefore going to win everytime, it's not going to go so well for Gromph. No body will back him as it is anti-lolth affair.
I found it awkward too, considering how stupid Quenthel is compared to Triel.
-Which is why I could see it working, with Gromph manipulating everything from behind the scenes. Quenthel, being the stupider of the two, would be easier to manipulate than Triel, who, after the events of the War of the Spider Queen, and having to bail Gromph's ass out of trouble, and leading the city to victory (which would certainly be her spin on things), would probably have begun to become more sure of herself, and of her position as top dog of the city. The only hitch is that Gromph has traditionally hated Quenthel. But, beings such as Gromph think three moves ahead of the present...
Well, Quenthel got it from all four corners in the WotSQ series, methinks she was not that "daft" beforehand - unless, e.g. plot-driven like in Siege of Darkness.
I'd like to mention that (for what it's worth) the Reader's Guide to the Legend of Drizzt doesn't think Quenthel is daft, and it also doesn't think Triel is all that great (her blurb mentions that she makes decisions based on emotion rather than careful thought). Don't know how well that jives with other lore on the Baenre clan, but I figured it was worth mentioning.
PS: Triel's picture in that book is terrible...
As for Quenthel, going by her stats, she has a natural INT 16 and Wis 20. Of Triel we know (AD&D only, Menzo box) of a natural INT 14 and Wis 18, though there were no level-based ability modifiers back then (5 in her case, Clr 20).
BTW, you wonder whether Quenthel will - in time - find out who sent the fiends after her during the Silence. It might result in a rude awakening for Gromph ...
-Which is why I could see it working, with Gromph manipulating everything from behind the scenes. Quenthel, being the stupider of the two, would be easier to manipulate than Triel, who, after the events of the War of the Spider Queen, and having to bail Gromph's ass out of trouble, and leading the city to victory (which would certainly be her spin on things), would probably have begun to become more sure of herself, and of her position as top dog of the city. The only hitch is that Gromph has traditionally hated Quenthel. But, beings such as Gromph think three moves ahead of the present...
I thought Gromph was pleased with his position. He didn't care being above his sisters
I thought Gromph was pleased with his position. He didn't care being above his sisters
But he and Quenthel hate each other. That's what Zanan was getting at.
I thought Gromph was pleased with his position. He didn't care being above his sisters
-Who is ever pleased in being in a position of subservience?
-Who is ever pleased in being in a position of subservience?
Well-paid butlers, like Alfred to Bruce Wayne? :P ;) :D
As Etta James once sang it, "you've gotta serve somebody!"
Thoughts, Ideas?
But I was wondering where I should post these, I figured we could make a whole slew of these connecting stories that don't really mean much but have a great apeal to the lore hungrey forgotten realm students that we are.
Thoughts, Ideas?
-Forgotten Realms: General Discussion.
-Who is ever pleased in being in a position of subservience?
It was more like: "I'm as high as I can be without the responsability of taking care of the whole city" I think he mention something like that when that lich was asking him to join him... And there's whole "Alfred to Bruce Wayne" thing .... :D
It was more like: "I'm as high as I can be without the responsability of taking care of the whole city"
-That much makes sense.
Gromph and Quenthel hate each other, but I don't see Quenthel just getting rid of him. He's still incredibly valuable to the House as the Archmage of Menzo. Plus, he's not so easy to get rid of, Matron Mother and favored of Lolth or no. And the man spent centuries under Matron Mother Dearest, so he knows how to handle a Matron Mother with a firm mind of her own.
My favorite Baerne female is still Sos'quel, though, just because I love how she's all, "Y'all kill each other; I'm just going to be chilling in my shrine." I like survivors and, despite being considered incredibly weak and pathetic, she's still standing.
Sos'Umptu.
Speaking of TW, anyone know how long Lolth's Peace lasted?
Sos'Umptu.
Ah, much obliged, RF. But I GOT THE FIRST PART RIGHT! :P
Is she still around? I thought maybe she bought it off scene, since her last appearance (AFIK) in Tangled Webs. She made nary an appearance in the WOTSQ.
She was in WotSQ once or twice. She's not a major character, I just liked her. There's really no explanation.
-You can't live with or without Gromph.
Too true. I never relly like drow but I started reading WotSQ cuz I was going to the field (as usual) and I finished all the novel I was interested. I ended up loving and most of the characters, Gromph being VERY high up there.
Ah, much obliged, RF. But I GOT THE FIRST PART RIGHT! :P
I know.:P
-Gromph used to be one of top 5 favorite characters.
Why "used to be," Lord Karsus?
Why "used to be," Lord Karsus?
-Because I have come to like many other characters, ousting him from that prestigious company.
No no... see, Quenthel isn't as "smart". So Gromph should be able to take her out if he really wanted to. He just needs the right opportunity.
Although, technically, I suppose Quenthel did put the smackdown on Triel, so Triel couldn't have been all that smart. ;)
You, being a practitioner of mind-bending should know of the power of a woman with a purpose and the knowledge that she is right—even if she isn’t.
-Which is why I could see it working, with Gromph manipulating everything from behind the scenes. Quenthel, being the stupider of the two, would be easier to manipulate than Triel, who, after the events of the War of the Spider Queen, and having to bail Gromph's ass out of trouble, and leading the city to victory (which would certainly be her spin on things), would probably have begun to become more sure of herself, and of her position as top dog of the city. The only hitch is that Gromph has traditionally hated Quenthel. But, beings such as Gromph think three moves ahead of the present...
And, with that hitch, he would have had Triel take out Quenthel.
Gromph and Quenthel hate each other, but I don't see Quenthel just getting rid of him. He's still incredibly valuable to the House as the Archmage of Menzo. Plus, he's not so easy to get rid of, Matron Mother and favored of Lolth or no. And the man spent centuries under Matron Mother Dearest, so he knows how to handle a Matron Mother with a firm mind of her own.
Exactly.
You, being a practitioner of mind-bending should know of the power of a woman with a purpose and the knowledge that she is right—even if she isn’t.
I dunno... Lolth seems to agree with Quenthel, so doesn't that make her right? ;)
She's not a major character, I just liked her. There's really no explanation.
Yeah, let's not draw the designers' attention to this character. She was always one behind the scenes, not important yet not invisible. I've made a 3,5E prestige class called the Yathtallar (i.e. drow high priestess) and statted her for that as a sample character. Maybe I'll post that at the DnD-Gate or a Candlekeep Compendium, as WotC and Paizo has no use for 3,5E FR stuff any longer.
Sos'Umptu Loyal!
I dunno... Lolth seems to agree with Quenthel, so doesn't that make her right? ;)
She also thought she was right throughout tWotSQ.
Not quite the point though.
I don't think Sos'Umptu is manipulating anything behind the scenes. Rather Gromph is.
I don't think Sos'Umptu is manipulating anything behind the scenes. Rather Gromph is.
Exactly, which is what makes her so interesting to me. She's a drow who survives by NOT doing. She's so "weak" no one bothers to get rid of her. She's opted out of the whole killing, scheming, and manipulating merry-go-round of drow life and succeeded in staying alive, as a priestess of Lolth no less! It's very Zen.
Exactly, which is what makes her so interesting to me. She's a drow who survives by NOT doing. She's so "weak" no one bothers to get rid of her. She's opted out of the whole killing, scheming, and manipulating merry-go-round of drow life and succeeded in staying alive, as a priestess of Lolth no less! It's very Zen.
You're sure we are talking about the same Sos'Umptu? We should remind ourselves that her main foe happened to perish in 1358 DR and unless new people spring up out of no-where, she is the third or fourth most powerful being in House Baenre these days: Quenthel, Gromph, Vendes are the only folk ahead of her.
Other known folk (during the time of the WotSQ) of some "power" are Andzrel Baenre (male drow, Ftr x, Weapon Master of House Baenre, Commander of the Army of the Black Spider), Zal'therra Baenre (female drow, Clr x, Cousin of Triel, Commander of the Army of the Black Spider), and Nauzhror Baenre (male drow, Abjurer x, Cousin of Triel, Master of the Academy and, for a time, Archmage of Menzoberranzan).
You're sure we are talking about the same Sos'Umptu? We should remind ourselves that her main foe happened to perish in 1358 DR and unless new people spring up out of no-where, she is the third or fourth most powerful being in House Baenre these days: Quenthel, Gromph, Vendes are the only folk ahead of her.
Other known folk (during the time of the WotSQ) of some "power" are Andzrel Baenre (male drow, Ftr x, Weapon Master of House Baenre, Commander of the Army of the Black Spider), Zal'therra Baenre (female drow, Clr x, Cousin of Triel, Commander of the Army of the Black Spider), and Nauzhror Baenre (male drow, Abjurer x, Cousin of Triel, Master of the Academy and, for a time, Archmage of Menzoberranzan).
Well, you're quite correct that her position in House Baerne has certainly helped her. But at the same time, competition and violence within the House is even greater. And yet she's still around! I just find that ironic and interesting.
Hmmm, I didn't realize Vendes was still alive (I thought Drizzt did her in?).
He did. He also did in Quenthel, but I don't think Duk'tak is that highly favoured by the Spider Queen to return from beyond.
Well, you're quite correct that her position in House Baerne has certainly helped her. But at the same time, competition and violence within the House is even greater. And yet she's still around! I just find that ironic and interesting.
-Lolth loves it.
He did. He also did in Quenthel, but I don't think Duk'tak is that highly favoured by the Spider Queen to return from beyond.
Dunno ... Yvonnel, Quenthel and Bladen'kerst I had in my list, no info on Vendes though. It would be good if this could be double checked.
Yvonnel had numerous children, most of whom became matrons of their own houses. This is mentioned in Homeland, but it's probably been retconned out of existence. But of those named in lore, only Gromph, Quenthel, Sos'Umptu and Jarlaxle are still alive.
I would have to say Jarlaxle is one of the most powerful Baenre now. His influence has spread to many drow communities. Even in Menzo, he commands considerable power in comparison to relatives.
Let me see ... about a hundred mercenaries work for him - if he has resumed leadership of the gang. He has contacts here and there and ... there it ends. He can make life very difficult for some folk. But don't get over-excited about him. Quenthel rules - essentially - the whole city, Gromph is the archmage of the very same. These are the two Baenre with "real power". Sos'Umptu apparently does not aspire for anything greater, though having been in Lolth's favor for ages gives her some "power" too. The roster of people "ahead" of Jarlaxle is not "long", so he surely is one of the more powerful Baenre about. But compared to other drow in Menzo, he ain't no "world beater". It is always difficult to value someone who gets much attention in novels et al against people who are there but don't get as much attention.
-I think I'd probably be more afraid of Gromph than Quenthel, status and positions aside.
I agree. For all her chaotic nature, she is in some ways fairly predictable, and thus manageable. Gromph is a lot scarier because he's just so crazy-smart.
Let me see ... about a hundred mercenaries work for him - if he has resumed leadership of the gang. He has contacts here and there and ... there it ends. He can make life very difficult for some folk. But don't get over-excited about him. Quenthel rules - essentially - the whole city, Gromph is the archmage of the very same. These are the two Baenre with "real power". Sos'Umptu apparently does not aspire for anything greater, though having been in Lolth's favor for ages gives her some "power" too. The roster of people "ahead" of Jarlaxle is not "long", so he surely is one of the more powerful Baenre about. But compared to other drow in Menzo, he ain't no "world beater". It is always difficult to value someone who gets much attention in novels et al against people who are there but don't get as much attention.
Your information is out-dated.
Bregan D’aerthe originated in the city of Menzoberranzan. Its founder, Jarlaxle Baenre, has cunningly spread his philosophy to other drow cities, and now his society, which once had only a few hundred, has more than a thousand members. Few drow care to move against Bregan D’aerthe, because the organization has its uses—especially in gathering information from the Underdark and the surface world.
Jarlaxle and Bregan D’aerthe have contacts in surface cities such as Waterdeep, Baldur’s Gate, Athkatla, and Darromar, as well as Mulmaster and Lyrabar. A few underworld guilds even consider Bregan D’aerthe an ally. Through this set of connections, Jarlaxle and his followers expand their
influence and grow ever richer.
Spreading to different cities as well as dealing with the surface exponentially increased the power of Bregan D'earthe. They are slowly spreading out from Menzoberranzan which is going to have an interesting impact on them.
Your information is out-dated.
:D ... really? Well, you get the odd word here and the odd word there and even some sentences in the FRCG. Trust me, if there has something been published in official WotC lore on the drow, I have read it. And as long as nothing more up to date than the detailed report in the Menzoberranzan box and essentially the C&P of that in the FRCG updates this, I think I am not as outdated as you think. No insult intended, but unless there is some proof that they are indead a "power within the Underdark and various cities" one should refrain from making statements that seem to be backed by somesuch. I'll happily read any new sources and info about them, if there are.
Obviously, the WotSQ novels shed some insight on their workings and that they are known here and there, even feared - but I for one would not read too much into that. Quantity in novel material does not exactly relate directly to importance within Realmspace, as the Drizzt novels prove time and again.
LK, am I right to assume that once more this article will not mark unofficial stuff?
dont know how big it is now, but, despite old man gromph being a diviner and ever watchful on mostly everything, Jarlaxe is cunning, and he uses that cunning to not only get what he wants but to survive, and his only flaw is that he likes shiny things.
also before i forget, BD has access to those two phylacteries the dragon and lich, which means the user can summon the dracolich and animate the fallen has undead skeletons.
ummm it was outdated, BD was a mercenary company of 2000 male drow soldiers..... well before the sellswords trilogy and the assualt of mithral hall.
The Menzo box is timed at just at the eve of the Time of Troubles, i.e. 1358, ie. the Year of the Battle at Keeper's Dale, as the attack on Mithril Hall is officially called.
Well over a hundred of Bregan D'aerthe's roughly 150 members are male, and many of these reputedly are nobles of fallen houses.
I doubt that they have swelled by 850 over-night. Maybe you have an official source saying that there number has vastly increased, but I would kindly request to name it. Not to be proven wrong, but to "update" my sources. The FRCG gives no indication that the mercenary group has swelled that much, even though one might think that the Silence and all may have had an impact. That info needs to be verified though, else it is just an opinion.
Bregan D’aerthe originated in the city of Menzoberranzan. Its founder, Jarlaxle Baenre, has cunningly spread his philosophy to other drow cities, and now his society, which once had only a few hundred, has more than a thousand members. Few drow care to move against Bregan D’aerthe, because the organization has its uses—especially in gathering information from the Underdark and the surface world.
Jarlaxle and Bregan D’aerthe have contacts in surface cities such as Waterdeep, Baldur’s Gate, Athkatla, and Darromar, as well as Mulmaster and Lyrabar. A few underworld guilds even consider Bregan D’aerthe an ally. Through this set of connections, Jarlaxle and his followers expand their
influence and grow ever richer.
This is a official source that lists their population higher then what you thought. That is why I said your information is outdated, because you did not seem like you knew that BD had a higher population or had spread their influence farther than Menzo to other underdark communities and to the surface.
WotSQ does hint, but it was the new info that made say this. Even before when BD threw their lot to a side it usually pushed things in favor of that side. That is a lot of power...and being that the leader is Jarlaxle Baenre apart of the first house.
Since when is Jarlaxle back in ruling BG? Last I have read about him was that he left them in a kind of way and this other boy was leading them, when he got onto some mission with "oh so cool" Artemis. But i must confess that I stopped reading Salvatore novels then, was getting boring to read the same stereotype bunch of guys hacking, slaying and doing the same things every time.
He runs it anytime he is around. He is the leader...and when he does take off Kimmuriel Oblodra runs the show.
I am not saying Jarlaxle is the most powerful drow in Menzo...but if you made a list he would be top five. I would place it like...
Gromph>Quenthel>Jarlaxle
This is a official source that lists their population higher then what you thought. That is why I said your information is outdated, because you did not seem like you knew that BD had a higher population or had spread their influence farther than Menzo to other underdark communities and to the surface.
But there is nothing in there about how big they are and how much power they really wield. That they spread through the Underdark is already known (I think Zanan knows that too, cause it is part of the novels from Crystal Shard to War of the Spider Queen). But that does not mean they have thousands of members, are the biggest bunch of guys and have the most influence in every place.
Many mercanery and trade organisations have some degree of influence in certain places, but that does not automatically make them the biggest part and the ones who can really rule a place and even if some have more influence in one ore the other place, in some places there influence will allways be second or minor to the ruling parties.
For example, Jaezred Chaulssin rules over Chaulssin, Ched Nasad, they have their hands in other Underdark dwellings and even on the surface too, have some power on the Plane of Shadow (one can assume that they still would have contacts to Chaul'mur'ssin in the Plane of Shadow) but they are not powerfull enough to play a major role in Menzo, even if many of their members are dragons, others half-dragons and all have powers many mortals only can dream of. They are powerful and in some places they are the rulers, but in others not. That's the same with BD, they may have contacts to the world above and in other underdark communities, but so what? Even most noble drow houses have allies and contacts in other drow communities and contacts to the world above, and they get richer and richer through them.
It is not specific but it is greater than a thousand.
For example, Jaezred Chaulssin rules over Chaulssin, Ched Nasad, they have their hands in other Underdark dwellings and even on the surface too, have some power on the Plane of Shadow (one can assume that they still would have contacts to Chaul'mur'ssin in the Plane of Shadow) but they are not powerfull enough to play a major role in Menzo, even if many of their members are dragons, others half-dragons and all have powers many mortals only can dream of. They are powerful and in some places they are the rulers, but in others not.
See this is where I just diagree. You bring up Chaulssin and I think they are a powerful organization as well. To me they did play a major role in Menzoberranzan...they caused a slave uprising and manipulated others into sieging the city. When the conflict went south they pulled out with little loss to their members.
Do not get me wrong...yes they are mercenary organization...but how they are evolving is gaining them tremendous power inside Menzo and more importantly outside of Menzo.
This is why I think Jarlaxle is top five. Because his influence is not limited to Menzo and there is evidence to support that. Money is power and Jarlaxle and his organization are poised to make a lot of money inside Menzo, in other locales of Underdark, and on the surface.
...which once had only a few hundred, has more than a thousand members....
It is not specific but it is greater than a thousand.
See this is where I just diagree. You bring up Chaulssin and I think they are a powerful organization as well. To me they did play a major role in Menzoberranzan...they caused a slave uprising and manipulated others into sieging the city. When the conflict went south they pulled out with little loss to their members.
Do not get me wrong...yes they are mercenary organization...but how they are evolving is gaining them tremendous power inside Menzo and more importantly outside of Menzo.
This is why I think Jarlaxle is top five. Because his influence is not limited to Menzo and there is evidence to support that. Money is power and Jarlaxle and his organization are poised to make a lot of money inside Menzo, in other locales of Underdark, and on the surface.
But that does not mean, that he is a real Top 5 or whatever mightiest being in Menzo. That is the point. The Jaezred caused trouble, but they never accomplished anything there to rule the city and after their little overdrawn action they lost most of their influence and are still not in a position to have some influence in ruling the whole city. I doubt that BD has the power, this is no where stated. Yes they have many people but they are widespread and nothing states that they could bring their power into account when it comes into decissions concerning how to rule Menzo and what should happen there. But this is the point of the discussion here, as far as I remember.
Money is not everything, that would mean that people like Warren Buffet and Bill Gates rule the USA, but I don't think so, but I am not sure, cause I am not living in the USA, so maybe someone there has other insights. ;)Sure BD makes a lots of money, but they need it to hold their widespread organization together, I doubt that the leaders can bring all their money in to bribe their way easily into ruling Menzo. A huge Organization with many outposts and connections in many places needs much of the time and money to hold every thing running smoothly.
And then there is still the fact, that Lolth is the most powerful force driving Drow and their Society. As long as she is there who suports the priestesses, she would never allow a city like Menzo, the archtype of drow life in Faerûn, to be ruled through men. I am sure she would do something to interferre here. After all if it comes to the point choosing between women and men it is clear what the Spider Queen preffers.
GROMPH BAENRE
The Archmage of Menzoberranzan, Gromph Baenre, is the brother and chief rival of Quenthel. The two have never seen eye to eye and still occasionally try to kill each other, though Gromph has remained loyal to the matriarchy throughout some difficult times. If he was ever going to seize control of Menzoberranzan, it would have been during Lolth’s Silence, when he was the most powerful spellcaster in the city. But Gromph likes to lead from the shadows, secretly pushing and prodding the city in his chosen direction. He maintains a sanctum that might be in the tower of Sorcere or in a pocket dimension of his own reation. Gromph prefers not to say.
_______________________________________________________________________________
BREGAN D’AERTHE
Bregan D’aerthe is a company of mercenaries, assassins, and scouts founded and still led (though from afar and through intermediaries) by Jarlaxle Baenre (page 251). The company absorbs houseless males and unaligned graduates of Melee-Magthere, making their services available to the highest bidder—and sometimes to every bidder. It’s not at all uncommon for Bregan D’aerthe
agents to be working on both sides of a struggle between warring houses, but they never side against House Baenre. Jarlaxle is smarter than that.
Bregan D’aerthe actively pursues contacts with thieves’ and assassins’ guilds of the World Above, sometimes providing drow mercenaries to supplement their operations. The current master of Bregan D’aerthe is Jarlaxle’s trusted lieutenant, Kimmuriel Oblodra, whose mastery
of the psionic arts makes him a cold and calculating killer, and so a valuable asset to his clients.
Bregan D’aerthe
Mercenaries unaffiliated with any house, yet powerful enough to enjoy prosperity and the indulgence of matrons, the drow of Bregan D’aerthe hold a unique position in the Underdark.
A character knows the following information with
a successful Streetwise check.
DC 30: Bregan D’aerthe mercenaries and assassins are a wild card in drow politics, seemingly an untouchable class of sellswords. The group has outposts in Underdark settlements across northern and western Faerûn. Its members have been found working for surface interests in western lands from Luruar to Tethyr, and as far to the northeast as Impiltur.
Organization
Bregan D’aerthe originated in the city of Menzoberranzan. Its founder, Jarlaxle Baenre, has cunningly spread his philosophy to other drow cities, and now his society, which once had only a few hundred, has more than a thousand members. Few drow care to move against Bregan D’aerthe, because the organization has its uses—especially in gathering information
from the Underdark and the surface world.
Hiring Bregan D’aerthe mercenaries also has its risks. As might be expected in a drow organization, the contract goes to the highest bidder—often the
patron who offers the group the biggest advantage when events sort themselves out. Bregan D’aerthe forces have switched sides in the middle of more than one battle, or played both sides, to the ruination of those they have double-crossed.
Leader: Jarlaxle, ultimately, but his trusted lieutenant Kimmuriel Oblodra runs the organization during Jarlaxle’s frequent and long absences.
Headquarters: Menzoberranzan.
Hierarchy: The most accomplished, charismatic, and discerning resident member runs a particular Bregan D’aerthe cell, although exceptions exist.
Members: Well-equipped and skilled drow from fallen houses, including a few disenfranchised priestesses, form Bregan D’aerthe cadres dedicated to
professional soldiery and mutual protection. Bregan D’aerthe is known to accept individual drow who are skilled in any of a variety of combat methods. However, the group has no active recruiting effort.
Jarlaxle and Bregan D’aerthe have contacts in surface cities such as Waterdeep, Baldur’s Gate, Athkatla, and Darromar, as well as Mulmaster and
Lyrabar. A few underworld guilds even consider Bregan D’aerthe an ally. Through this set of connections, Jarlaxle and his followers expand their
influence and grow ever richer.
I doubt that BD has the power, this is no where stated. Yes they have many people but they are widespread and nothing states that they could bring their power into account when it comes into decissions concerning how to rule Menzo and what should happen there. But this is the point of the discussion here, as far as I remember.
To me you just need to read the above. It is obvious that BD has lots of power as they are a gear in the politics of Menzo. Yes they have many people, some (not many) are spread out...and there is stuff stating that when BD brings their power into account it greatly affects Menzo. You can say what you want but this is my personal opinion and it is going to be hard to change knowing what I know.
Besides...it was even stated in the WotSQ that when BD helped with the siege people went indebted into them...
and money is power...Jarlaxle does not want to sit there and control Menzo nor more than Gromph does.
To me you just need to read the above. It is obvious that BD has lots of power as they are a gear in the politics of Menzo. Yes they have many people, some (not many) are spread out...and there is stuff stating that when BD brings their power into account it greatly affects Menzo. You can say what you want but this is my personal opinion and it is going to be hard to change knowing what I know.
Besides...it was even stated in the WotSQ that when BD helped with the siege people went indebted into them...
and money is power...Jarlaxle does not want to sit there and control Menzo nor more than Gromph does.
Ah, I see now where your point is. OK, erase the last posts, I thought you meant that he is like Quenthel heading after the ruling business and a kind of real ruler there, and the others wouldn't be the ones. But yes, the other thing makes sense, BD is certainly and was it allways a big card in the game to govern the city and that did increase through the time and became a better card.
Exactly...I was not saying that he was more powerful than Quenthel or Gromph but he would be Top Five in Menzo because of the influence BD asserts over the politics of the city...as well as the exponential increase of power BD has seen in 4ed lol
At this moment and time, the "leader" is not (even) in Menzo and I for one doubt that he nor his mercenaries have that great an influence in the city. For that is neither their aim nor do they want to have that. For if they get too influential (i.e. powerful), they become a factor the Lolthites would have to deal with, whether Jarlaxle is a Baenre or not. They are as excellent as they are notorious in what they are good at nonetheless.
Maulron ... would you be so kind and mark your own stuff and that of sourcebooks accordingly, just to keep confusion out of this.
Chaulssin and the Jaezred Chaulssin, they were/are lead by individually very (as in: VERY) powerful people (just check Dragons of Faerûn as well as the corresponding web-enhancement on Chaulssin), yet could not hold on their prime victim, Ched Nasad. Obviously, that was not their fault, but the designers' "wish". As a power within the Underdark, I'd fear them more than Bregan D'aerthe. We'll have to see how the designers see that though.
And yes they number over 1000 as per the line
...which once had only a few hundred, has more than a thousand members....
It is 1479 DR...
In the source BD is stated to have influence, though Jarlaxle will not oppose Baenre.
I went through and bolded some.
and they are not a House...
It is not like they are going to have houses moving against them to take their position (lol never say never though...)
You have to grant me that what I have listed outside of source is not working from assumptions but logic.
Please remember that I am not saying that Jarlaxle and BD are more powerful than Quenthel or Gromph...but they are close...
I honestly do not know why this has continued...it is all there...
They>1000
They are key players in politics of Menzoberranzan
They>1000
They are key players in politics of Menzoberranzan
Found that entry and added it to my data. Fair enough on that then. 1000 members spread all over the Underdark does not relate directly into key players in Menzo politics, though that is for the designers to verify - IMHO.
If he was ever going to seize control of Menzoberranzan, it would have been during Lolth’s Silence, when he was the most powerful spellcaster in the city.
Just want to throw out that this is B.S. And everyone knows that. I can think of at least 3 or 4 spellcasters in Menzo that were more powerful than Gromph.
Well, as Leiril said, I read and know all that you have cited.
Yeah, yeah, we know. You are among the few omniscient guys here on these boards. :P
Found that entry and added it to my data. Fair enough on that then. 1000 members spread all over the Underdark does not relate directly into key players in Menzo politics, though that is for the designers to verify - IMHO.
I think the majority would be concentrated around Menzo, while the minority would be spread out.
Really Zanan, not only does the phrase they are the wildcard of drow politics lead me to believe they are key players but just how they are always viewed in novels as well as other books like the campaign guide. You have a society that has these houses scheming for power. One side hires BD to help them put down the other house. To me BD has the decision of who they want to cross, double cross, etc and that lends them power in the politics of Menzo.
I do agree that BD has to walk on eggshells as to not be destroyed but that is exactly what they are doing as they always side with Baenre. Regardless, though there position in Menzo is unique...there influence is farther than just Menzo...the have limited control over who wins conflicts in Menzo...and are always moving up in wealth.
Just want to throw out that this is B.S. And everyone knows that. I can think of at least 3 or 4 spellcasters in Menzo that were more powerful than Gromph.
I did not say that, the FRCG did. What three to four spellcasters in Menzo are more powerful currently?
Villians Lorebook
Gromph Baenre, (20th-level male wizard)
Jalynfein, “The Spider Mage” (24th-level mage
Matron Mother Baenre, (25th-level priestess of Lolth),
Underdark
Gromph Baenre, 16 Diviner/Archmage 4
the Lich Dyrr, Sorc 20/Wiz3/cleric 1
Triel, Cleric 20
Hmm...what happened to Jalynfein?
I did not say that, the FRCG did.
I know that; this wasn't aimed at you, though.
What three to four spellcasters in Menzo are more powerful currently?
Not currently, but at that time.
Well, let's see.
Definitely: Dyrr, the Lichdrow (Sorcerer 22/Wizard 3/Cleric1 CR 29), Jalynfein (lvl 24 AD&D), and Courdh Mizzrym (lvl 22 AD&D; warlocko gave him: Wizard 15/Loremaster 10 CR 26)
Maybe: Horroodissomoth Xorlarrin (lvl 18 AD&D; again from warlocko: Wizard 11/Loremaster 10 CR 22)
Yeah, yeah, we know. You are among the few omniscient guys here on these boards. :P
Only when it comes to drow. As you were looking for important folk in the Baenre hierarchy ...
http://www.dnd-gate.de/gate3/page/index.php?id=420
;)
Jarlaxle, though probably my favourite character, is at best in the top 10 of most influencial drow. That does not mean most powerful. Any of the Matrons of the Council could have him killed if they truly desired.
It was always my opinion that Lolth allows him such free reign despite his views because of the chaos he sows.
This is all just MHO, obv.
I'm going totally by memory here, but it always amazed me how Menzoberranzan's drow population increased dramatically after the Battle at Keeper's Dale. One which they lost badly.
Well, it was not that large an drow army and one that only featured selected companies from the houses. They weren't entirely wiped out either.
Roundabout the time of the Keeper's Dale Battle, Menzoberranzan's population was listed as 20,000 drow (Drizzt do'Urden's Guide of the Underdark). Underdark, giving numbers for the place 20 years after this, says roughly 10,000 drow inhabit Menzoberranzan. The FRCG, 100 years on - and after elevating Menzo into the "prime" drow city of the Realms (at long last
) - has the number of drow up to 25,000 again, despite rather significant losses during the so-called "War of the Spider Queen". This fluctuation has IMHO simply to do with the way designers in these editions felt what was reasonable for this place, you see, there is limited space as well as limited food et al. AD&D and 4E went a bit lax, while 3E presented a picture that was propably closer to reality. The actual events do not reflect much on these numbers, I would assume.
Her predecessor’s cavernous audience chamber at the top of the mound was sealed at Quenthel’s orders—with the rotting corpse of her sister entombed within.
Eww...Quenthel killed Triel in Triel's grand audience chamber...then sealed up the place and left her there to rot.
No event that was IMHO needed. AD&D as well as 3E lore had quite a number of instances where some diversity was given to the "core" drow house and "core" drow politics. Triel was not as stife-loving as the rest and would have made a decent enough ruler of the city, even if this might have made her "look" weaker than others. Quenthel, well, we'll see how this works out.
No event that was IMHO needed. AD&D as well as 3E lore had quite a number of instances where some diversity was given to the "core" drow house and "core" drow politics. Triel was not as stife-loving as the rest and would have made a decent enough ruler of the city, even if this might have made her "look" weaker than others. Quenthel, well, we'll see how this works out.
I agree...I honestly think they played off Triel under her potential.