I am curious to people's opinions on this.
There's no assurances of loyalty, but one imagines that the benefits of ordaining clerics and paladins is worth the risk. And if they prove to be unfaithful, then those who are faithful will deal with the problem. And as always, if it really bothers the deity, well, that's what Angels of Vengeance are for.
Ok that is true I guess...but are gods actualy based on teir worshippers anymore? What are the vbenefits of having paladins and clerics? I mean that has always been my main gripe against the FR killing of gods(not just in 4th but in general) is that how can a god truely die if he satill has followers?
Also does it cost a god anything to invest?
I really wished they fleshed it out more.
Though there is one point about a god sending a Angel of Vengence to punish a disloyal cleric...he doesn't have any idea that there is a disloyal cleric.
Though there is one point about a god sending a Angel of Vengence to punish a disloyal cleric...he doesn't have any idea that there is a disloyal cleric.
I'd expect the god to be able to keep track of his own believers' loyalties.
How can a god truely die if he still has followers?
Very good question. The fact is, gods can be resurrected. Amaunator would be our precedent in 4th edition, but the developers also allowed his worshippers to gain spells while he was dead.
Regarding the usual "canon versus your own campaign" argument, both sides appear to offer you a chance to rally a quarter million faithful, get them to stand in a circle and hold hands, and petition Ao (or the dead deity in question) while screaming at the tops of their lungs.
Regarding the usual "canon versus your own campaign" argument, both sides appear to offer you a chance to rally a quarter million faithful, get them to stand in a circle and hold hands, and petition Ao (or the dead deity in question) while screaming at the tops of their lungs.
IMO, the dead deity--AO doesn't listen to mortals.
I am wondering why would a evil god invest power into any cleric?
-As decreed by Ao, a deity's power derives from his worshipers, their zealousness, and the deity's portfolio. So, it's in his own best interests to empower worshipers and have a following. They strengthen him, and in turn, he strengthen them, so that they can strengthen him further.
I'd expect the god to be able to keep track of his own believers' loyalties.
Not as 4th edition is written...as a matter of fact they specifcaly said the god don't know about it in the PhB. Though I am guessing if the disloyal cleric tries to lead a movement against him he would hear about it(...I mean not being omisentient doesn't mean blind and stupid).
They did this so they( and DMs) can run plots with evil cleric of good gods for the most part atleast(borrowing a page from Eberron).
But a cleric who gets invested then could use the power for whatever they want...they could become good guys even...
Angels of Vengeance
Angels of Vengeance... pfff...
They're called Aasimon, paragons of goodness, not 'faceless pawns of any alignment'. :P
Btw, I wonder who the good guys will be, since Archons, Angels, and Eladrin got other roles in 4e. Well, I suppose it's all up to the DM now.
They did this so they( and DMs) can run plots with evil cleric of good gods for the most part atleast(borrowing a page from Eberron).
I guess it will depend largely on the story demands then. But the difference between Eberron and FR is the Eberron gods don't exist.
But a cleric who gets invested then could use the power for whatever they want...they could become good guys even...
-Right. All a deity can do is assign servitors to dispatch the individual. But, that's no guarantee that those servitors will actually be able to do it.
I guess it will depend largely on the story demands then. But the difference between Eberron and FR is the Eberron gods don't exist.
This is the Realms lore section so I am not going to start a discussion but there is no prove that they don't exist. Or that they exist. Me in my Eberron they do.
-Right. All a deity can do is assign servitors to dispatch the individual. But, that's no guarantee that those servitors will actually be able to do it.
Well the deity does have to hear about it now though...also that is what a deity would do any edition the only thing different now is that the deity doesn't automaticaly know when when someone broke their vos and use his power for their own goals..even if those goals are in direct conflict with his own.
Well, if the Evil Diety had something of my desire, I would serve him/her until my goal was acomplished, then simply aquit the God/Godess and seek my next path. This is just my perspective, not a justification to your question. Hope it helps in some way.
That is why I asked the question...why give you the power for the long term if you are only going to stay only till other paths separate...
I think a rutrual ofdeinvestment is need atleast.
That is why I dislike the concept of many "eeeeevil" gods. A god like Bane should represent conflict and tyranny but he does not have to be automatically associated with evil. The same goes for "good" gods. I like the gods being more unaligned, at least the majority of them. Just my two cents.
Not a bad idea...though just because your god is evil doesn't mean you havbe to be(well mostly).
And they can cut out more gods for being excessive like if Bane is not considered evil they could get rid of Torm and just have a unaligned god of Law and Rulership....
Though I doubt we'll see it in the Realms as those gods wouldn't be that exciting to read about...there wouldn't be conflict among the gods.
Well, even demi gods are so far above the norm for mortals that if you consider reaching level 6 to be a very good achievement, no lesser god or those of higher stratus should fear betrayal. Not just of individuals but even by entire armies. Betrayal for tasks which should be done, and fear of things not going the way they should is a legitimate fear, but fear against any mortal being themselves, no way.
I am not talking about a god fearing direct attack by someone but evil does tend to be selfish.
Well the deity does have to hear about it now though...also that is what a deity would do any edition the only thing different now is that the deity doesn't automaticaly know when when someone broke their vos and use his power for their own goals..even if those goals are in direct conflict with his own.
-The deity can't also say, "You know what? No more powers for you." like they could in the past, which is the main difference.
Ah o.k yes... but if you have like, a rule system based on fear, why should it be a concern?
Because the fear is gone. There is no reprisal if you are careful. Well yes it is a bit silly for a god to worry about a 6th level character but it is even sillier for a god to be fooled by a 6th level character(or even a 20th character...and in regards to someone using his power for purppses opposed to his portfolio I would if he was a 100th level character it would still be silly in this case)
I don't know, the way clerics work now just seem to make the god kinda pointless...I could get invested by x god and just makwe up the relgion of me... (yes I know I can do whatever I want in my game yada, yada, yada) but that is not my concern.
I don't know, the way clerics work now just seem to make the god kinda pointless...I could get invested by x god and just makwe up the relgion of me... (yes I know I can do whatever I want in my game yada, yada, yada) but that is not my concern.
I can't say one way or the other concerning the rule system.
As for what gives a god their power? Well, there is nothing concrete that says that the rules have changed from previous. I see no problem with continuing on with having worshipers a priority.
On the other hand, you get to the point where you have the Fugue Plane debate, where a god picks only the best fruit and tosses the rest.
Assuming the "best fruit" are those that have proven themselves time and time again, you may consider these faithful to be of higher levels. And, on that note, take the fact that their power comes from those who have the most powerful entities serving them.
This may be why there are no greater gods/lesser gods/demi-gods serving their own purposes and only sometimes aligned with other gods. Now we have everyone serving a greater god. The only individual agenda's now lie with those greater powers.
Because the fear is gone. There is no reprisal if you are careful. Well yes it is a bit silly for a god to worry about a 6th level character but it is even sillier for a god to be fooled by a 6th level character(or even a 20th character...and in regards to someone using his power for purppses opposed to his portfolio I would if he was a 100th level character it would still be silly in this case)
I don't know, the way clerics work now just seem to make the god kinda pointless...I could get invested by x god and just makwe up the relgion of me... (yes I know I can do whatever I want in my game yada, yada, yada) but that is not my concern.
I think the issue is that things are being oversimplified. "The cleric can do what he wants, there is no fear, you just need to be 'careful,' just ordinate and go!, the deities aren't omnipotent/omniscient, etc." You said yourself that "not omniscient" doesn't mean "blind and dumb," so we'll leave that one alone. For the others, let's do an activity! (;))
[INDENT]Put yourself into the shoes of a Faerunian, any Faerunian......are you there?? Good. Now......fool the Church of Bane into believing you are faithful, sacrificing a family member as well to prove that you are evil. Note that this may not be the first loved one or sentient being that you've had to off. You did have to prove to the Banite clergy you were worth the week long ordination ritual in the first place, remember. (Man, that caked blood still won't wash out!
)Next, after being invested with a spark of Bane's vile essence which is slowly awakening the little tyrant that was already within you, give Bane the finger and tell him to k.y.a. cause you are going to go set up your own tyrannical religious organization over in the Toadsquat Mountains. Don't forget to avoid the organized religion that will be pursuing you along the way.[/INDENT]
Now, while I am sure we each are a terror to behold and a threat only to be imagined......the above scenario still doesn't sound very likely to end happily for Mr. J. Cleric, IMHO. :P (Although I hear the new ocean views are fabulous in the Toadsquats!)
So getting back specifically to your original question, as others have said, a CE deity invests power into clerics in order to have influence in (read: bring ruin to) the mortal realm. Of course the deity may be using the followers, but the followers are also using the deity. Particularly in the case of CE, I don't think the relationship is going to make perfect sense because it is highly dysfunctional...to say the least. :D Don't you agree?
As to how they would know, gods in 4e may not know everything that every follower does during the day, but clerics aren't just regular followers: their Gods have personally imbued them with Their power, and if you think They can't figure out who's slacking on the job pretty quick, please keep your cleric one full city block from my character, because I don't want cleric goo on my character.
Not a bad idea...though just because your god is evil doesn't mean you havbe to be(well mostly).
And they can cut out more gods for being excessive like if Bane is not considered evil they could get rid of Torm and just have a unaligned god of Law and Rulership....
Though I doubt we'll see it in the Realms as those gods wouldn't be that exciting to read about...there wouldn't be conflict among the gods.
I am starting to realize I do not like the gods having conflict with each other.
It is the one thing about the FR that I am starting to dislike. I blame those god novels a few years back.
I am starting to realize I do not like the gods having conflict with each other.
It is the one thing about the FR that I am starting to dislike. I blame those god novels a few years back.
That we can agree on :D ...though I don't mind conflict between their churches conflict among the gods is sorta pointless. It is like argueing Super Man can beat up Mighty mouse.